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I think the question is phrased wrong.
The real question is, Why are the Gedolei Yisroel opposed to the Draft?
Phrasing the question that way would provide a simple ansewer.
The Yeshiva Velt, which by and large are the students of the Gedolei Yisroel, oppose the draft as the Gdolim taught them.
ZD
I highly doubt that any Tzeddaka collector coming around after Shachris is collecting for the Fund to FLy the Satmer Rebbe.
As for your comment about Rav Shach.
You are quite mistaken, Rav Shach lived right near Yeshivas Ponovich and not a 2 hour bus ride from yeshiva, he usually walked the short distance.
BTW there is probably no 2 hour bus ride in the entire Bnei Brak!
Charliehall,
Actually I have learnt more then a few Chapters of Nezikin and if you take the economic principles advanced by liberalism which in a word is “fairness’ and compare them to the economic principals codified in the Torah they are amazingly at odds.
Democaratic principals look askance at the idea of a Monopoly yet the Torah advocated the din of Hasogas Gvul which means that if a store is open cometition is not allowed to open in the area (of course this is the extremly basic law and a deeper understanding of Choshen Mishpat is needed to understand where and how it is applied.
While legally if a borowwer defaults on a loan the lender can only collect from “ziburis’ the lowest class of land Chazal raised it to “beinunis” the middle and stated expressly that the reason is becuase in order to encourage lending the compenstation must be increased in acase of default.
Now of course there is a fundemental idealogical difference between the Torah outlook and secular outlook.
Liberals have attempted and contiue to attempt to legislate “fairness”.
The Torah views “fairness’ as being the province of HKBH and man can only ensure, to the best of our abilities, that law ensures fairness of opportunity, quite similar to Conservative priciples in reality.
Actually in the Public Meeting about the Tent City one person after another expressed concern with the plight of the homeless.
However the solution is not for a “Tent City” to be put up right near families with little children.
Not when people in the Tent City are not just homeless many of them are not mentally stable and the problems from the residents of the “Tet City” are quite dangerous.
Sorry Shmendrick
As you often point out you have a trained and well honed Gemarokup, as such you should be able to understand the “chiluk”
The Gemora in Beitzah is giving a havtach to an individual, that individual should understand that he need not worry about his expenses on account of the money spent “L’Talmud Torah”.
However the Yeshivos are the ones charging the money they must charge the person according to what they see.
It so happens there is a “minhag” by some that they do not “bargain” over schar limud and the mekor for this minhag is the aforementioned Gemorah.
A slight point however is that when a portion of the “Schar Limud” goes towards secular education, one must understand that presumably the Havtacha is not for that portion of the tuition.
If I undertand the OP correctly he is asking how can the reason that Reish Lakish prohibits Marital Relations be because of “Nosah B’ol im chaveiro” if the Tanna Kamma quite clearly permits it based on the number of children?
If thats the question the snasewer is really quite simple.
The question is whether or not the obligation of Pru U’revu which is a mitzvas aseh overrides the qobligation of taking part in the pain of the tzibur.
Now If I recall correctly all the commentaries agree that the Gemora in question is discussing the obligation of “noseh b’ol im chaveiro” I do not recall a single source that states the arguement is over whether or not one can burden the “tzibur” with another mouth to feed.
There of course are several indications that cannot be “pshat” One would be that if I recall correctly the Gemora after that centers around a lenthy discussion over how far the obligation of Noseh B”ol goes.
Another point would be that when it comes to “education” the gemora in Meseches BEitzah says quite clearly that the money to provide ones son with a Talmudic Education is derived from HEaven and is not part of the ordinary allotment so it would be difficult to understand how the a trouble with parnossa would be a basis not to have children.
I actually thought the interview was done extremley well.
I also am curious as to what the objections to it could be.
Ami has already interviewd Charles Hynes for his side.
They wrote a detailed “introduction” stating they are not taking sides and are simply on the advice of Rabbonim,seeking to ensure both sides of the story are heard.
The Defense Attorney himself made frequent emphasis of the point that abusers must be prosecuted, however he astated that in this particular casse he believes his client is innocent.
Rabbi Feivel Cohen the author of Badei HaShulach is one of the senior Poskim in AMerican and Senior Rov in Flatbush.
Rabbi Hillel David is the same.
Rabbi Yisroel Belsky shlita is A rosh Yeshiva in Torah V’das and Rov to many.
They have all indicated quite firmly and clearly their “Conservative postions on who to vote for.
Laws do make it hard for them to endorse from the podioum.
Why oh why do I keep being accused of Being this person or that person.
I post under one name ne one name only.
Ben Levi.
As for the ridiculus assumption that a person stating that Sandy Hook and Hurricane Sandy are different means Kefira in Bechira.
That is ridiculus.
And no we can not know for sure why something comes.
But we do know for certain that if Hashem sends a punishment it is becuase of issurim and to issue a wake up call.
Again as has been pointed out that is the Tochecha its pretty clear cut.
And if we want to stop these tragedies from happening the most effective prevention is not listening to the Doofis in Chief Al Gore it’s rather by making a serious Din V”Cheshbon.
And please dont slander Chareidim or Rabbonim by stating they are all in the Democrat voting machine.
Lakewood voted by close to 80% for Christie specifically because of the Toeivva issue.
Where there “askonim” who felt Corzine should be backed because he would extend a highway.
Sure.
The Kollel Youngeleit did not listen as beared out in the facts.
Seems to some people their Torah Values trump Money even in todays day and age.
And the Rabbonim in Queens followed it up by all backing the Republican in Congress again becuase of Toeiva (though people tried to spin it as Isreal, it wasn’t).
Theres a famous line.
Youre entitled to your own set of opinions but not your own set of facts.
Well first of their is Shimshon HaGibor who was influenced for the bad by his wife.
Then of course there is his parents who were the opposite and actually the Malach appeared to his mother not father at first to tell her Shimshon would be born.
This is from memory so might be wrong.
Sorry clicked twice.
Far east,
Have you ever studied what Torah U’Mada is?
Have you ever tried to actually gpo out and read up on why a new term had to be invented when there was aperfectly good term out there called Torah im Derech Eretz?
Please Dr. Norman Lamm’s “shittos are in the books he wrote.
Go read them.
They are”nt what you want them to be.
The COfee Room is really a unique place in that it actually allows a no holds barred conversation that actually lead to people learning things they did’nt no before and relearning things they think they knew.
Talmud Torah K’neged Kulam does not refer to the fact that through Talmud Torah one can be mekayim the entire Torah.
The above statement is true but not what the aforementioned Mishna is referring to.
The mishna is stating a simple fact that the LEarning of Torah is equal (Kneged” “all of them” all Mitzvos.
The Vilna Gaon actually says an interesting thought based on that.
The Gaon states that each word of Torah is equal to all 613 mitzvos.
On Shabbos the Gaon writes each mitzva one does earns schar times 613 hence each word of Torah that one learns is 613 times 613.
Pretty interesting, No?
As for those that stae Modern Orthodoxy emphasis “Torah U’madda?
What exactly is Torah U’Madda stating that secular knowledge is equal to Torah?
Hate to break it to you.
But Yes that is Kefira in the eyes of Torah Jewry which believe in the Torah of Hafuch Buh V’Hafuch Buh Dkuloh Bu. (Toil in it (Torah again and again for all is there).
And please do not qoute “Chochmah Bgoyim Tamin” becuase all that says is that the Goyim do have chochmah not that that Chochmah is not found in Torah.
And please do not start stating that RSRH believed in Torah U”mada what RSRH taught and wrote about was Torah im Derech Eretz.
For a clear explanation on the vast differences between the two complete with a myriad of clear and outright demonstrations of the aforementioned differences, please see Rabbi Joseph Eliase’s brilliant and comprehensive commentary on The Nineteen Letters.
And look Torah Judaisim has not changed their Hashkofas a bit, as evidenced by the fact that on this whole thread specific examples have been given of MO “changing” (thats being charitable) of Torah Law while not one single example can be given of Torah Judaisim changing Torah Law ch’v.
And yes if you hold beliefs and have a sense of priorites that are not in line with the millenia old tradition of Torah Judaisim.
Beliefs that go against Hlacha then Torah Jews will state that is Kefira.
Actualy the problem with Kastner was not really that he was a Zionist but rather that he was an accomplice to mass-murder as was basically proven in a court off law and transcribed in full by the the secular zionist BEn HEcht in his book Perfidy.
So Satmar quite understandbly does not glorify a man that was for the most part a murderer who did one thing to “try and allow people to ignore his entire “resume” that so happened to save the Stmar Rebbe’s life.
You can sya what you want however a close member of my family was told by Doctors that he would never walk again.
Several Gedolei Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel were approached.
They all said that the erson would recover and everything would be fine.
Less then two weeks later the person started to walk.
The irreligous Doctors stated it was a miracle.
Zdad,
Actually if you are busy cleaning a counter with a bleach and someone attacks begins to verbally assualt you and get aggresive it’s pretty instinctive to throw what in your hand, in other words, the bleach at the person.
And it’s also pretty universal that the way one shows disgust and revulsion at someone else is by spitting.
HaKotan,
Just to add to what you wrote.
Chazal do state that the mabul came about as a result of Mishkav Zochor.
MM22,
No the reason people are opposed to him is not because he is simply trying to “out” abusive behaviour.
It is because of what he does (accuse people with no proof of anything) and use foul lanquage to embarrass an entire community in a public manner.
Syog Lchochma
B”h it seems you are extremly innocent, however please look up the “pre-scool exual abuse scandals” of the 1980’s.
To state, basically, because his “victims” (who btw claimed to be a young teenager, not a child of 5 or 6, when the actions took place) he must be guiloty shows a pretty high level of ignorance.
As for why I chose to believe he is innocent.
Last I checked the Torah says “Dan L’Kaf Zchus.
If a single person shows up in BEis Din to accuse someone of something and can not produce any evidence to show they are actually making a valid claim such as “Kula d’lo posuk” that person recieves malkus for being Motzi Shem Rah.
I have been told of no evidence what so ever that this girl is doiing anything but setting about to destroy some ones life in an act of revenge and an attempt to get rich.
And I admit, the court case and all those on her side have further covinced me since in article after article, post after post I have read people twisting every which way to “prove” his guilt but no one can produce a stitch of evidence.
If so many people trying to find anything on him could find absolutley nothing thats a pretty good indicator to me of his innocence.
Now as Health has written,should any real evidence be presented against him I would of course have to rethink my position. However I don’t see any of that.
And BTW I am fully cognizant of the fact that there is real abuse cases out there.
IMO it is real abuse victims that suffer the most here.
There is a theory that the reason the “abuse” claim became so discredited for decades in the non-jewish world is becuase of what happened over the abuse scandals when the accusation was believed no matter what, a standard of proof was not required, a witch hunt atmosphere developed, and people went to jail even though they were innocent.
Those people were eventually proven innocent and the “abuse” claim was discredited.
That is what is scary.
How many people now will no longer even listen when someone screams abuse precisley because of this trial?
Sorry,forget about a Al Pi Din, there is no court of law in which someone stating that four other anonyomous people approached me,
I can’t tell you their names but trust me their their, would be admitted as evidence.
Even in Webermans trial someone had to take the stand even the Non-Jewish court system recognizes the utter stupidity of even allowing such eveidence to be admissible.
Especially considering this.
Someone comes out says that someone else is guilty of a heinous crime.
You’ll see the evidence will come out in trial.
Well there was a trial.
There was no evidence.
One girls word against one mans word (and a whole bunch of others that vouch for him).
Including women who do not exactly “toe the party line” to put it nicely.
Then all of a sudden said person who was shouting from the roof tops the other persons guilt starts talking about “others” who have now come forward.
Others who are anonymous (if they exist, which I doubt).
Others who for years could not come forward even anonymously!
Who only found our Rabbi Yackov Horowitz’s number now.
Years after the actions they claim took place.
These others who live in a community notorious for its rumour mill where reputations are broken with the snap of finger based on rumours, and yet the person in question was considered a man of upstanding charachter with not even a hint of impropriety mentioned about him.
But now there are others.
An entire investigative team could turn up absolutley zero evidence.
Zero.
The girls boyfriend was willing to take the stand and testify that she told him she would make up such a story.
The girls 2 older sisters were “clients” of Weberman, they did stand back and allow their parents to send their sister to this “monster” without breathing a word?
Chalilchase.
I am happy to be able to eduacate you since you seemingly are unaware of how things work in Satmar.
Those who are part of the chassidus are quaranteed a place in school.
If they cannot afford it the tab is picked up by others.
Hence no tuition crisis.
As for Chasunah Crisis.
Are you unaware of the Chasunah Takanos in Stamar.
They were made and enforce period.
To detail them is pretty hard since it would take pages and pages as they literally cover everything.
As for the Bleach Thrower.
Considering it was in self-defense of the person why would they have to deal with it.
As for the spitters.
I don’t know of any, but if someone uses foul language to abuse the Rabbonim and Askonim that lead a community then in a public forum and seeks to publicly disparage the community that said spitters are very grateful to, then I would think he should be happy that spitting is all that happens to him.
If he does not like his community feels that he knows better then them and feels his “children” are at risk.
Why does he continue to live there?
I actually think that it is a pretty remarkable display of restraint on the part of Satmar that he can live in the heart of a community that he publicly embaresses, curses and mocks in the most disgusting manner and all he can complain about is being “spat” at.
Oh and I would think those that he alleges spit at him don’t exactly feel he is “protecting” their children, do they?
Chalilvchas,
Satmars are unwilling to admit they have any imperfections.
Are you really really serious?
Lets take just one example.
Lavish spending at weddings putting parents in debt.
What has been Satmar’s response and what has been other communities responses?
Who has been more effective?
Or is it that you just do not like the Satmar community’s way of dealing with things.
Meaning that they do not see a need to broadcast their problems on the front page of every newspaper and have endless “commitees’ and “professionals” that deal with it endlessly and are very satisfied that they can point to one success here and another there.
Rather their Rabbonim and askonim meet behind close doors and come out with a community wide solution to address said crisis.
But then we must feel left out when so many “crisis” that are in other communities that now wish to give Satmar advice just don’t exist in Satmar.
Lets see.
The see the “tuition crisis”
Doesn’t exist in Satmar.
The “Chasunah Spending Crisis”.
Does not exist in Satmar.
No fun at all, is it?
What do you mean Health.
The Willi bashing is quite understandable.
Don’t you see any standard Shabbos in Williamsburg you can see how much less concerned they are with men and women acting friendly with each other then in the Five Towns.
WIY
In other words if someone clearly states that certain acts are reprehensible if proven to take palce.
However said person also states that one cannot destroy a person and along with it his entire family, nor can they slander a whole community without any proof what so ever other then one persons word.
Then that person is “covering up”
In other words no longer is the slightest shred of proof needed.
Or perhaps you mean that if a young attractive girl convinces 12 jurors in NYC that a middle aged religous man did unspeakable acts to her for a period of several years without her parents having a clue and she kept quiet for years out of “fear”, a fear that seemed not to have prevented her from doing anything else that she pleased whether her community approved of it or not.
That constitues proof.
Oh and the fact that millions of American citizens stated they viewed BO as more competent on the economy also is clear proof that he is.
Just wait for the boom times they a’comin.
I do not know what is wrong with someone stating that they are more concerned over Jewish tragedies.
I view other Jewish people as extended family and I think it is natural for someone to feel more concern over members of their family then other people.
Of course this does not mean that my heart does not go out to thos eparents suffering from this horror right now, however I do not view non-jewish people in the same way as I view Jewish people.
Which I am sure is the same way vice-versa.
Ex. Several years back during the Second Intifada I was in the car with a group of people in the the US.
We got word there had been a bombing in a certain part of Israel.
I asked urgently if it was in the Chareidi section of that city.
Someone else blew up at me.
How can you even ask that, and irreligous jews mmean nothing to you.
I kept quiet rather then explain I have a vast number of reletives throughout Isreal.
However the person who blew up at me came to understand it on his own.
The next day I recieved word my first cousin was in the blast and her child was killed instantly R’L and she, and her husband sustained severe injuries (that have left their mark till today).
My point is that we are naturally more concerned with our own then with others.
Of course if someone would view themselves as an equal member of the non-jewish community this would not apply.
WIY
No I am not iced.
And I don’t have access to the Daily News nor would I beleive anything they wrote.
In fact I did not know that there were people who did beleive what they wrote.
And I was not aware that there was a heter to beleive a MOtzei Shem Rah on a whole community.
Is the 5TJT serious?
First off they happen to be leaving apart of History out.
The “gezeira” was for a specific qouta of Jewish children to be ponied up to the military.
The rich people paid for poor peoples children to be kidnapped and used to fill the qouta so that theirs would not.
I am in no way justifying what they did, it is horrible to say the least.
But do not make it out as if they just set about doing evil to other peoples kids.
That was not the case.
They were faced with a horrible nisoyon (test), one that we can thankfully not imagine and many of them failed.
They failed horribly.
As for the part of the 5TJT that presumes to tell the Williamsburg community how they must “act” and what they must do.
I hope they realize that is patently ridiculous.
The community they refer to is by and large Chassidish and the particular one in focus is Satmar.
I do not think that the Satmar Rabbonim are going to turn to the Five Towns community for advice on how to run their schools anytime soon.
And if the authors of the article were smart they wouldn’t try to give it.
How’s about the FTJT do a drop of research as to which community is actually more successful in passing down their chinuch to the next generation?
As for the “culture” of punishing those that come foraward.
Lets be clear about this.
Never ever has a single Satmar Chossid or member of the community justified anything that this man is alleged to have done.
They have not and would not justify it. As the very thought of it is repulsive.
Heres the catch.
They say he did not do it.
Other women who let their names out and stood up on the witness stand. Said we attended therepy with him.
He did not do it.
The secular press has admitted there this is a “He said, She said” case. There is no evidence he did it.
Two people now say that others have come forward.
For years he practiced.
He was sent this girls older sisters.
No word, no rumours, nothing.
All of a sudden out of the wood work comes two people saying others all of a sudden found out they could come forward anonmously.
Can the 5TJT staff please write an editorial explaining what the halachic sources are that allow them to believe this girl over him are?
And to beleive her so firmly that they are able to write an editorial slandering an entire community?
If they should chose to write such an editorial it will probably take them awhile cause tit does not exist.
BTW it actually is a machlokes whether Yichud is a Drabonon or not and the Tzitz Eliezer says according to the Mechaber it’s a Drabunan.
According to everyone Kabbolas Motzi Shem Rah is an Issur Doiraisa.
Zdad
To state that there is anyone in Satmar that supports a criminal is not just wrong it is deliberate LH on an entire Kehilla.
And By thw way the “hallmark” of Satmar is the amazing Chesed they do for every single Yid regardless of what their BEliefs are.
Chesed that I myself was a reciepient of.
What Satmar says is that this man is innocent and they are vehemently opposed to the accusser who they feel is guilty of deliberatley destroying someone life.
To state that Satmar tolerates the types of things that is allegged to have occured is absurd.
If a man is found to attmpt doing such a thing in Satmar he would quite literally be beaten within an inch of his life.
You know that, I know that, The entire world knows that.
One need no further proof of this then the simple fact that it is unwise for a single girl to be on the streets late at night in the heart of the most “liberal” tolerant communities, yet such problems don’t exist B”H in the heart of Meah Shearim.
However in Satmar someone can not just scream abuse tell a convincing story several years after something allegedly happened and thereby completley ruin a mans life.
They want proof and proof does not mean someone else saying “I know others but they are afraid to say anything.
Its Ben Levi with an I not a Y
An sorry but I sure ain’t Joseph.
Sorry to dissapoint.
As for where it states what I said.
Meshes Peah.
As for “knowing the Torah” to fullfill it.
If you acknowledge that you must learn the Torah to know it then you acknowledge that without learning the Torah you do not know.
Results?
If someone who is not knowledgebale it Torah comes and states “these are Torah values” and another person who is knowledgable in Torah who actually sits and studies the Torah for much of the day, states that Torah values are not in line with what that person states it is logical to believe the Second person.
As for the “statement” made by Hillel to the mechutzaf.
Lets see.
Facts are the Torah Shel Ba’al Peh and Torah Shebiksav are huge (Tanach, Shisha Sidrei Mishna, Shas, Midrashim ect…) so how do we understand Hillel’s statement?
Is’nt Shammai’s statement more logical?
Of course I am not the first to raise this question the meforshim on that statement raise this question and explain exactly what Hillel meant Loo it up.
And thank you for providing a perfect example of why intensive Torah study with all commentaries is needed and one cannot really base their opinions on a few random unconnected statments that they heard here and there.
GAW
I am a proud Litvak and you most certainly don’t speak for me.
It’s true that Project YES is hard to get through to, that is something I find a drop troubling since it is headed by Rabbi Yackov Horowitz who is considered by some to be extremley active in OTD.
However there are numerous other orginazations that are dedicated towards OTD though they are much lower profile even though they do amazing things.
In Flatbush There is Rabbi Wallerstiens yeshivos which includes an Middle Elementary school specifiacally designed for kids who are “falling” through the cracks.
I don’t know much about the school know as I do not live in Brooklyn anymore, however when I was in Yeshiva I had a friend who’s father was a Rebbi their and part of his job wass that each time he gave a test he had to make up an individual test tailored towards each kid.
I believe the elementary was called Bircas Shmuel and the Beis Medrash was Ohr Yitzchok.
At the time I was in Yeshiva in Brooklyn it was a known thing that all the Wallerstiens work was done under the direction of Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zt”l.
There is also Our Place.
There is also the one man “storm” of action named Rabbi Mitch Mitnick who has dedicated his life towards OTD kids.
Then in Lakewood there is Rabbi Yitzchok Abadi and his Yeshiva dedicated towards helping these children.
There is also Progect Extreme with Rabbi AY Weinberg.
However I will state that from what I have seen personally the most help comes from individual Rabbeim who put their heart and souls into doing everything they can for their talmidim.
I personally stand in awe of what I have seen many Rabbeim do to help their students.
However I am aware of the fact that many Rabbeim are increasingly curtailing their activities in these fields since the danger they are subjecting themselves to is sadly growing day by day.
All they need is one child with emotianal problems or one distraught parent to accuse them of something and theyre entire lives and families lives can be destroyed.
B”H Klal Yisroel still has Men and Women who are willing to risk it , however the risk grows and sadly many are deciding the risks are to great.
And yes, I most definetly am deeply afraid of what will happen in the future.
I wonder why there are some people who feel that they can define Torah Judaisim as somethong other then what the Torah defines itself as and yet still be surprised when others make clear that their “feelings” are contrary to Torah.
For example.
The Torah states quite clearly “V’Talmud Torah K”Neged Kulam”.
Talmud Torah (learning Torah) is equal to all other Mitzvos.
Yet some people feel that they can disparage Torah and indicate there are other mitzvos greater then Torah Learning and still should be thought of as Torah Jews.
Well since I would think that people realistically must realize that no chinuch system can have 100% success rather 85% to 90% is realistic.
And we would equally realize that until say 15 years ago the Yeshiva system had a pretty impressive succes rate.
The Yeshiva system rebuilt an entire culture that we were told after the War was gone forever.
It turned out responsible Mothers and Fathers who could get married at a young age and stay married as well as raise children.
Many terrible things that were rampant in PS were absent in Yeshivos (for the most part).
Of course this began to change when “chinuch experts” pointed to the 10% of children that were unfortunatley falling through cracks and argued that that meant a wholesale change was need.
We now had to use educational methods from “proven” “trained” experts that would solve the issue.
Well sure they came to be.
The experts had their way.
But since the only place these “methods” and “proven” techniques had been implements were in PS, well believe it or not instead of solving an issue they made it ten times wors.
So the same experts who claimed that the issue was a lack of “affection” from teachers a lack of “loving” every child (go back and read the JO on Kids at Risk and its follow up).
were in a quandry.
You see.
They had their way.
The old system has been discredited, and they had their ideas implemented.
So why are things worse?
Well it can’t be that they were wrong.
It can’t be that Roshei Yeshivos and Rabbonim who were screaming NO! while they clucked and said “Ach them? they should stick to their Gemorah. they’re too old and out of touch, we’ll educate them”
It can’t be those Rabbonim were right.
No.
It’s a new problem.
Abuse!
A child goes off they’ve been abused, a marriage breaks down? Abuse!
We are not responsible for anything.
Once agin we are the Paul Revere’s! We are are warning you listen to us and our 6 figure salaries and ten degrees.
Ignore our results.
Ignore the fact that each and every place our “warnings” have been implementd has wound up unrecognizable.
If these “chinuch experts” want peace.
Then tell them to back off.
Tell them to get their hands off our schools and off our children.
Tell them that our children are not their guinea pigs.
Tell them they do not know better then the Torah.
If they leave us alone then sure we’ll them alone in return.
Morah Rach
Sure things change but then again the Torah never promoted Men taking more then one wife as the “ideal” rather the ideal was always Adam and Chava a monogamous relationship. There are many sources for this ex. why were Rachel and Leah not buried together with Yackov in the Mearas HaMachpala.
However the Torah on down through Chazal have promoted corporal punishment as an effective chinuch tool.
Furthermore on a practical level we have seen that the more certain methods of chinuch are utilized and “old” methods of chinuch are thron out, the more blatant the collapse of chinuch becomes.
Slowly as Public School methodologies are brought in to Yeshivos the results of PS are unfortunatley becoming rampant as well.
ReadyNow,
Yisroel V’Oraisa V’Kudsha Brich Hu Chad Hu.
Just to clarify.
I purposley dis not use the term “lie” in talking about accusotory children.
There is aconsiderable evidence to the fact that children below a certain age do not lie about things in the way adults understand lie rather their perception of reality is different then an adults and hence when they say over a story in many instances they do not think they are lieing in the conventional sense.
I don’t think this is news to any parent of small children.
This is one reason why it’s quite disingenous when “experts” qoute studies showing “children don’t lie”.
Yes they do not lie in many cases, however they are not telling the truth as we understand it to be.
Again most parents of small children understand what I am saying as it’s pretty much self understood.
But then again most of the “experts” that are the originators of most of these “studies” had very few children of their own and even if they did they spent very little time with them to know many of the things that many Jewish Parents who grew up in families with numerous siblings, cousins ect.. take for granted.
So they had to spend millions of dollars and make numerous mistakes trying to find out a little bit of what we know.
Sort of like President Barack Obama telling a buisnessman how to turn a profit, with equal results.
In cases of abuse I wonder if anyone here has read up about the “pre-school” cases of the 80’s where in a whole bunch of cases men (and in some instances women) were convicted of child abuse.
In all these cases eventually it was proven that the accused were innocent, in many cases they had already benn sitting in Jail for years.
In fact the near total exoneration of virtually all the accussed and the open demonstration of numerous cases where children did not say the actual truth plaid a real role in the child abuse accusation being laid to rest for a lon. long time.
Look the cases up some of them are pretty famous.
As for Halacha.
There is something called “kula d’loh posuk” in such cases Beis Din has the ability to require that a “suspect” no longer deal with a specific women or children ect… as a precaution even though they may not punish since they do not have enough evidence to warrant a punishment.
Zdad,
You happen to be right there are those that state that a “road trip” with an unmarried girl above the age of 12 is assur becuase of Yichud.
Therefore they contend that it is prohibited for Boys and girls to go out on dates.
ZDad,
Have you ever looked up the stats on abuse?
I mean the real stats at the source, not the ones qouted in articles by “chinuch experts” and expert “phsycologists”.
You see there is a small secret that for some reason is glossed over in many articles by people interested in protecting children.
The actual term Child Abuse refers to many different things. It’s kind of an umbrella term.
Obviously it includes Child Sexual Abuse, Physical Child Abuse, as well as Abuse through Neglect.
Now when these statistics are qouted for some reason this little fact is left out.
Furthermore what’s left out is if you will go to any CPS breakdown on child abuse you will see that the most prevalent form of Child Abuse by far, and by far i mean by far, is Abuse through Neglect.
Those are the facts, plain and simple.
Child Sexual Abuse does’nt even compare to the amount of children that suffer from Neglect.
Now the most effective “cure” for neglect is a Caring Teacher who is dedicated to the child, sees the child each and every day, spends time with the child, and is invested with the child.
A teacher is the one who most simply can at least in some way provide the emotional support and warmth that the Parents cannot or will not provide in all too many cases.
Why won’t the parents provide it?
Well in some cases there are SB issues consuming them, in some cases they are physically exhausted from working themselves to the bone to provide for their children, in some cases they emotionally cannot for whatever reason.
Whatever the case may be all to often the parents are not providing it and the kids suffer.
Now you are right.
Many Rabbeim now-a-days will not show the physical affection for their talmidim they once did becuase they are afraid for their own families in the case of a nutty parent or child.
For some reason a Rebbe could have spent decades being underpaid and overworked dedicating his life towards other peoples children and literally putting his life and soul into them.
But unfortunatley it’s not enough for people to even give them the slightest benefit of doubt when 1,2,3 parents or children out of hundreds literally will accuse them and they know every hug they gave a crying child will be held against them.
So, yes a lot of Rabbeim stopped it.
And yes more and more children go off.
And for some reason no one stops to think for second.
Hey, 25 years ago were there that many children going off the Derech left and right?
Were there that many Children with real social isssues?
Were there this many problems?
Why now?
And as we get more “enlightened” there are more problems.
Anyone remember the famous JO about KIds-at-Risk?
Has it got better or worse since then.
Oh.
Wait a second.
The same “experts” telling us know how to treat our Rabbeim.
How to treat our kids.
What real “child raising” is.
Are the exact same people that laid down the policies for Americas glorious Public School system.
And yep slowly but surely our schools are looking exactly like Americas Glorious Public School system.
Funny the coincedence.
A bunch of people that have literally destroyed the American Moral Fabric, The American Social Fabric, the concept of families in America, and the Public School system in America are now on equal par with Rabbonim and Talmidei Chachomim when it comes to how to be mechanech our children.