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rabbiofberlin,
Actually the ruling of “Yahrog V’al Yavor” disallowing people to go to the army is very much a Halachic Ruling.
The Gedolim who ruled as such made their feelings known quite clearly they feel that thethe underlying reason is cause to declare it a “Shas Hashmad”.
Now the classical case of “shas Hashmad of “araksa d’misana is
something that you would feel has noting to do with halacha, it was merely a mode of dress. Yet Chazal make plain that Shas Hashmad refers to everything.
Now of course you disagree with the Halachic reasoning of the Gedolei Yisroel, however instead of admitting as such you chose to say that it’s a political statement instead of admitting this is Rav Shteinman’s halachic take on the matter.
“What exactly do you want– those who oppose the advancement of women in Judaism?”
Like I said, I did’t read the article ,I don’t plan on reading the article alI know of it is the above qoute from your post.
Usually it means finding a way to put a beard and peyos on feminism and put feminisim in Judaisim.
Like Mechalelei Shabbos talking about their connestion with G-d by putting tefillin on at the Kosel.
Or fighting for the progress of having Women displayed on pictures in Yerushalayim.
Or the right to insist that Toldas Aron is breakking the law by having a Mechitza eperating men and women by their Simchas Beis HaShoeiva in Meah Shearim.
Or fighting for the rights of women to sit right next to their friends husbands on th bus in Eretz Yisroel.
That is usually the “progress” written about in the secualr media.
Yup, I have’nt read Jaskoll’s article nor do I plan on it.
I am however amazed that there are groups of women who feel that western feminist movements represent “womens progress’ and rights and so forth.
From what I see all Western Feminism has done is cause the complete degradation of wome.
When a certain type of swimsuit was first “invented” they could find no women to “model” it as no Women would display herself in public in such a way.
Now the Feminist movement has proudly turned women into pure “display objects”.
A Hollywood Actress publicly proclaimed a couple of years ago that when she came to Hollywood if a women had participated in certain types of videos she would hide it under her covers, now its her calling card to entry into the new world.
And years ago omen could actually walk outside alone at night, something I would never ever let my daughter do ( unless it was the middle of MEah Shearim where B”h Womens rights have’nt progressed)
So the simple ansewer to the question you posted is,
We wish to preserve a world in which a women has value beyond the years of 15 to 40.
We wish to preserve a world in which Families remain intact and divorce is not par-for the course.
We wish to preserve a world in which the basics facts of life are recognized.
Women and Men look physically different.
Just as they are different physically, so to they are different emotianally.
Just as they are different emotianally so to they are different spiritually.
B”h we have a Torah which requires a Man to strive to fulfill the role suited towards the body and soul he was created with and a woman to fulfill the role that suits the body and soul she was created for.
And B”H we have a Torah that recognizes that alone both a woman and a Man remain incomplete and yet by marrying and joining together they are able to become one.
Our Torah commands us not to strive to creat a partnership, rather to strive to become “one” (Vehoyu L’Busar Echad).
Which means a world where woman and man are not “rivals” competing “against” each other but actually work together towards a mutual goal.
I am so sick and tired of people saying that we must acceppt WOW because to “make Moshiiach come” and Veahavta Lreacha Komocha.
How about we set the record straight.
The Vilna Gaon (Even Shleima) writes that there is a percentage of “Eirev Rav’ mixed into Klal Yisroel, they are the hater of talmidei chachomim and it is they who prevent the Geula from coming.
Thats the Vilna Gaons opinion, seems to differ from yours.
And from the way the Gaon says it,seems to me that theres a good chance the WOW have a greater part in preventing the Geula then those protesting.
But then again WOW would not exactly want the GEula since they make clear they really would like to change the Torah, not accept it.
Avtually they recently brought in some new ones who chosen to frame the issue as one of “equal rights” akin to Rosa Parks.
Acually the reason why they have become more public is becuase they have brought in some PR experts.
I think you shoul read the articles that are readily availible before stating your Gut feelings as facts.
And then again I was just taiking with a top Dr. in a Manhattan Hospital who was trained in Isreal and himself is a religous though not yeshivish by a long shot, and he told me that the top students his class were those with a Gemora background.
Funny.
I’m a high school drop-out yet I started up and and run asuccessful buisness that was given that was started with money from a person who got a degree then decided to purue a different course and regrets his degree as a “waste of time”.
Historically speaking did’nt an intifada of some sort break out right after Ehud Barak declared a “secular revolution” of some sort?
Actually the Rambam himself makes clear that Chazal knew far more science then the scientists of their time in fact he categorizes people in three “groups’ and calls those that believe that Chazal were limited to that which was known in their time “fools” since even a cursory reading of Chazal show this to be simply false/
For further info see The Rambams Shemonah Prakim where he writes this in detail.
Interestingly Rabbi Jonathan Rietti has a fascinating tape on the Rambams diet where he brings numerous examples of medical statements made by the Rambam which were completley based on Torah Knowledge and were only discovered hundreds of years later.
Charliehall,
hat to break it to you but Goren was universally condemned by Rabbonim in eretz Yisroel from the Ultra-Orthodox to the Zionist excluding the Ultra Liberals.
Perhaps not all used the Stiepler’s words (written in an easily obtained letter) in which he stated that Goren was a Chamor Noseh Seforim (Donkey carrying books) but condemned he was.
In fact the despicable nature of his act was something that United Torah Jewry.
And please don’t be intellectually dishonest enough to compare his “heter” to the modern day controversy.
In his case the proper Geirus was proven beyond doubt and upheld by subsequent Batei Dinim.
In the modern day cases, Zionist Rabbonim are the actual initiators of an investigation proving that there was real doubt as to the BD procedures and Kabbolas Mitzvos, enough doubt to have arguabley damaged the Chazaka of said BD hence throwing into question all conversions done by them.
Charliehall,
The name calling of the Rabbi Tendler you refer to is because in the eyes of most Rabbonim in the Torah World Rabbi Tendler is to qoute many “a second rate scientist and thrid rate rabbi”.
And yes over and over his psakim have been held up and shown to have no basis.
A Doctor who is off the beaten track and passes out medicine that is of dubious origin and is proven to be dangerous in many cases is called a quack even if he has a “degree”.
The Rabbi you refer to is essentially a quack.
Beningnuman,
If you would be up to date on the Matzav in Eretz Yisroel you would be aware that essentially was the crux of the huge machlokes regarding Geirim.
Rav Elyashiv made it clear, very clear that in his opinion many of the converts that went through the process of Rabbi Druckmans system were not Jewish and yes, that was the position of Rabbi Avrohom Sherman who is Dati Leumi and was the “Whistleblower” in many cases.
It’s interesting to note that the defenders of Rabbi Druckman have completley ignored a detailed post explaining exactly what is wrong with his geirus.
And it’s furthermore interesting to note how people seem to feel that if one is granted semicha and has the title of “Rabbi” then that grants them the right to argue on those far greater then them in every way.
Let me explain.
I had a serious medical emergency.
It was arranged for several Senior Dr’s to examine me. They were from the top in their perspective field’s.
Afterwards when discussing it with my local GP he made a comment that if he would argue with some of the Dr’s that were on my case then he would just show himself to be a fool, if I wanted a second opinion then I needed to reach out to Dr’s of the caliber that had examined me.
There is no further proof needed to the “clown” status of many of the “Rabbis” being discussed over here other then the fact they are “clownish” enough to argue on Gedolei HaDor who are so far out of their league in Torah knowledge that it’s an insult to even put them in the discussion.
If you want to take Weiss an co. seriously saying he’s clown enough to argue with Rav Elyashiv wont do the trick.
I was once in a complicated situation.
When it came to a close a woman asked me to go and explain to my Rosh Yeshiva zt”l how things were.
I explained to her.
I don’t tell my Rosh Yeshiva what to think I ask him what he thinks.
I don’t think anybody on this board is in a position to judge what one of the Gedolei HaDor says or thinks.
When it comes to Torah Matter we ask we don’t tell.
I am so sick and tired of people trying to use the Corzine endorsement by the Lakewood Vaad as proof that one can vote a Pro-Toeiva canidatdate.
Lets set the record straight.
The Lakewood Va’ad is largley run by Balei Batim.
Frum and Erliche Ba’al Habtim who do much to help others but Bale Baatim not Rabbonim.
The Va’ad said that Rabbonim backed their view.
I am sure some did.
However Rabbi Shmuel Meir Katz personally hung up a sign stating if they mean him or any of the other Yeshiva Poskim (Rabbi Forsheimer, Rabbi Felder, Rabbi Lieberman) it is a mistake as they did not state one can vote for Corzine.
They all told anyone who asked that they would vote for Christie.
Rabbi Yeruchem Olshin shlita stated publicly that his signature was copied for the sign and though they presumed he would be OK with it he was not.
The overwhelming majority of Rabbonim in Lakewood stated one should vote for Christie.
And yes the overwhelming vote in lakewood was for Christie.
Well Chazal actually do state that the Mabul was an oinesh on the prevalence of Mishkav Zachor (The Ramban explains it was triggered by Gezel and was on the issur of Mishkav Zuchor)
ZD
I think you missed my point.
These organazations already exist.
This Chesed already exists.
If all the Chilonim want is that the Chareidim do these things then why is there any fight in the first place?
It’s already being done!
Is Lapid serious?
The Chilonim keep Yom Kippur as a compromise to the Chareidim?
Who is he kidding?
The Chilonim circumcise their sons because out of respect for the Chareidim?
He really is hallucinating.
ZD
I don’t get it .
There are already tens of thousands of Chareidim taking part in Chesed Ventures on a completley volunteer basis.
Hatolah, Zaka, Yad Sarah, Bikur Cholim, Va’ad HaRabanim and more.
So if the entire problem is that the Chilonim simply want the Chareidim to be “Nosah B’Ol” and take part in caring for others what is the problem?
The Chilonim should learn from the Chareim about Chesed!
I don’t get how did this become a discussion about the “weaker students
Has’nt Rav Shteinman’s position been clarified numerous times?
Don’t many “weaker” students go to Nachal Chareidi because of his directives to do so?
Facts are the chilonim are not going for the “weaker” students ’cause there are already many Roshei Yeshivos that send them to the army they are going for the average Chareidi Kollel Youngerman.
VM
You cannot believe me all you want fact is I dropped out in mid tenth grade.
And my point simply is that if you think a lack of a good HS education is a barrier to an ability to make a living you are wrong.
And any attempt to state that yeshiva schools are so much worse off in their reading and writing skills that it makes it impossible for them to grt a job is laughable.
And no it isn’t anecdotes, any one who deals with Customer Service can tell you that these days when people grow up with text speak most of the general population has a hard time reading and writing.
About the only thing making the job market tough is the current economic policies but seeing as most of the yeshiva world voting for the Presidents opponent i don’t think they could be blamed for that.
I actually find this article pretty amusing.
You see I am a certafied High School drop out.
That is I ended my high School secular education so I could focus om learning.
BTW, my employees do not have deggrees either.
And since part of my buisness has a retail angle to it we recieve many Customer Service emails.
I find it amazing how the English writing skills of the general populace have descended to a level that actually renders their writing unreadable.
And what is pretty interesting is that it is the correspondence from the orthodox jewish world that is usually the most readable.
So based on my completley unscientific observations I would think that Mayor Bloomberg has a lot more to worry about with the education being provided by the PS system (which to be fair he does seem to be concerned with) then the YEshiva system.
The Yeshiva’s are educating it’s just a different set of priorities , goals, and skills that they focus on.
However it seems that the PS are not educating at all.
D,
Are eou in any way aware of what goes on in Isreali hospitals?
The Chareidim are already doing Bikur Colim and plenty of it, and yes the Chareidim already have Zaka and Hatzola and many more Volunteer organazations.
When Meir Dagan needed surgery he turned to a Chareidi Medical Refferal.
So if all the Chilonim wanted was the Chareidim to take part in caring for the sick and helping people there would be no fights ’cause it’s already done and done well.
But the truth is that’s not what they want.
They want to control the Chareidi youth they want to be the ones deciding Halacha for them and teaching them priorities,.
And that is something the Chareidim will never except.
There leaders are not our leaders.
There values are not our values.
Their goals are not our goals.
Their priorities are not our priorities.
Lets see people are accused of being Defenders of Weberman.
Then they are accused of being in “denial”.
Then someone brings in the women of Satmar.
Lets take them one by one.
Even in secular law the presumption of innocence is considered a foundational principle of Justice.
For a person to be convicted legally guilt must proven beyond reasonable doubt.
In other words a reasonable case must not be made to prove the person is innocent.
Innocence is assumed, guilt must be proven.
It seems to me that each poster has reiterated the fact they do not know if Weberman is guilty or innocent.
They have merely asked how a rasonable case can be constructed that he is “guilty beyond reasonable doubt”.
No proof what so ever has been offered that he is guilty.
Some circumstantial evidence has been brought forth that he did things that may indicate that he was guilty.
Each point raised has been ansewered.
Still those daring to question the conviction of a man based on one girls word.
A case that all have basically acknowledged is He said/she said.
Are being accused of being in Denial?
The only Denial is being exhibited by those certain of a mans guilt when they have no evidence what so ever.
As for the Satmar Women.
The vast majority believe he is 100% innocent.
I completley fail to see how the moral of this story is that one should only see licensed therepists.
From an abuse standpoint, the stats actually show a higher rate of abusers amongst therapists then the general population.
From a results standpoint.
Modern day therepy is still unable to point to any sort of widespread success.
Yes, of course thereapists can point to individual success stories. So can I , and I have no degree.
And my Rabbeim can point to a huge amount of success stories.
However they can’t point to any place where the implemantation of their theories have led to a communal improvements.
Mandated Reporting itself is something which has virtually no studies showing it helped.
In fact the reverse is true.
There is more evidence that mandated reporting has actually been counterproductive the productive!
I would actually think that the moral of this story is to turn to Mashgichim, Roshei Yeshivos, and Rabbonim more then therapists of any type as the implementation of Torah views on chinuch historically has produced communities with stable families and children who are capable of marrying and having a family at a young age.
Why would someone turn to therapists when the facts are that every community that has adopted their theories and turns to them to deal with specific cases is in complete shambles?
Whats the marriage rate in the secular world?
Whats the divorce rate?
Whats the abuse rate?
First off my understanding is that he claimed that the door was unlocked, and the room was his study.
In fact from what I understand hiw wife demonstrated that the door to that room was unlockable as it was misaligned.
Many people who have large families have rooms that serve dual purposes and yes and it is quite coomon for a study to have a bed in it, many people in my family have such rooms.
Considering the fact that from what I understand NW sort of had an open home and many children who were unable to stay in their own homes slept in his I think it is quite understandable why his room would have had a bed.
As for his sessions lasting 3-4 hours?
When I have had issue to discuss with my Rabbeim they sat with me for well over the 45-1:00 you describe.
They sat with me for however long was needed.
JayMatt,
Actually the Gemora is not arguing as to whether the yesod is correct the arguement (if there is one) is whether that is what is being referred to in the case at hand.
As for destruction, My point was not to state that Mishkav Zuchor is the reason what occured, I have no nevua, nor am I from the Gedolei HaDor.
I was merely pointing out,
1) If someone would state such a thing there are Talmudical Sources for it
2) there is something wrong with official recognition even in cases where one knows that it is going regardless as to whether it is recognized or not.
As to yytz points about “political opinion”.
The question at hand is not a theoretical opinion.
10 years ago you may have been correct as the personal opinions of the Politicians maid no difference.
Now-a-days that is not the case, in many cases voting for certain politicians means that the person is directly causing an action that is despicable and can lead to destruction.
Last I checked.
Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita
Rav Aron Leib Shteinman Shlita
Rav Nissim Karelitz shlita
Rav Gedalya Edelstien shlita
Rav Shmuel Aurbach shlita
Rav Chaim Greinaman shlita
The Gerrer Rebbe shlita
The Belzer Rebbe shlita
The Rabbonim of Eida Chareidis
Rav Ovadia Yisef shlita
Are all vehemently opposed to Yeshivaleit being drafted, period.
Can you state which GEdolim are in favor?
Even shoul NW have admitted to being oiver on Yichud (which seems to be a matter of some debate).
The very Gemora’s at the end of Kiddushin that make about the issur of Yichud make clear that being oiver on Yichud does not mean that someone was oiver on anything else.
In fact the there are those Shittos in the Gemorah that state one does not give malkus to a married woman who was oiver on Yichud since it may cause people to think that ch”v she was actually mezaneh.
So we have a clear cut Gemorah that states that proof of Yichud is no proof of znus.
I don’t get people keep stating what they beleive the Torah Veiw is.
Yet a Gemora was quoted, the exact page was given, stating clearly.
1) One of the things that provide a “Zchus Kiyum” for the Umos HaOlam is the lack of recognition of same gender relations.
2) Rashi explains that this Gemorah is stating that this is even though in private they engaged in such actions.
So anyone who states that it makes no difference to us what the “recognition” on the books is since they are doing it in private anyway is arguring on the way Rashi eexplains a Gemorah.
Anyone who sates that recognition of same gender marriage by the umos haolam cannot have led to widespread destruction is similarly arguing on said Gemorah.
To state that feeling that there may be a connection between the recognition of same gender marriage and the destruction that took place afterwards is not the way of the Torah is a feeling that is not in line with Chazal’s understanding of the Torah since again a Gemorah was qouted and explained where just that is done.
Your point about mortgages is actually correct but misses the point.
People do not lose money, lots of money willingly.
Until Cater and co introduced the concept of redlining mortgages were given out to people who could afford them, when financial institutions were forced by Liberal policies to lend money to those who could not afford it it became a msatter of time till they figured out a way to turn it around and make money off of it.
As for deregulation, I am somewhat puzzeled over why you continue to ignore the fact that DRepublicans did in fact push to reighn in Fannie and Freddie and as I noted there is a pretty well circulated clip on You Tube of an actual commitee hearing where Democrats made clear tey refused to go along with it.
It was Democrat appointees to Fannie and Freddie that made off like bandits and were never held accountable not the Republicans.
As for the wisdom of FDR style economic policies.
FDR was president for over a decade if his policies worked how come the recession lasted throughout his presidency?
Ansewer is that his policies did not work.
After his death Truman began to cut the massive taxes that FDR had implemented and finally the economy began to grow again.
JFK actually gave a pretty good speech about the wisdom of cutting taxes and implemented massive tax cuts that worked.
Another reference is New Deal or Raw Deal by Burt Folsom that does a pretty good job of detailing the impact and utter failure of FDR’s policies (but it’s not like reading as it’s pretty numbers heavy)
To state that the biggest economic boom occurred under Clinto is actually not true as it began under Reagen and coinitued through Clinton.
And to state Reagen did not cut is also an untruth he had a deal with Tip O’neill that cuts would be enacted Tip O’Neill backed out not Reagen.
Now by and large European Countries do in fact have endemic long term unemployment that is way higher the the USA.
Can you find one that is an exception?
Temporariy yes.
But for the one exception Five are collapsing (Portugal, Spain,Italy, Greece, Ireland, and Iceland collapsed years ago) and its a matter of time till the exception follows.
However in a tiny country that has massive natural resources they could pull of f certain things that a large country like the USA cannot simply since it’s cheaper.
Much like Alaska pulls off what other States cannot.
They have a tiny population, massive natural resource,s voiala.
And SS is not inherently sustainible since the model was created at a time when people lived shorter and had more children at this time there is an increasingly fewer amount of people paying in while the people living off it are increaisng rendering it unsustainible.
About Chillul Hashem lets get this straight.
Chillul Hashem is not thousands of young men choosing to live a life of poverty so they can sit and learn Torah instead of taking a different path that could allow them to actually have more then a 3 room apartment.
Chillul Hashem is having a Toeiva parade through the streets of Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh.
Chillul Hashem is public Chillul Shabbos.
Chillul Hashem is forcing men to listen to women sing and create an environement of complete pritzus.
Chillul Hashem is a non-jew coming to the land of the Jews and being told don’t worry over here our Capitol City is as Modern as New York, and has all the benefits of Times Square after dark.
V’Hamevin Yavin.
And if someone does not realize that the world was created for Torah, it exists for Torah, and the essence of Klal Yisroel is Torah and the ones sitting and learning with mesirus nefesh are the ones that are holding up the world in a very real way.
Well thats just too bad.
But not listenting to thos who refuse to undestand the essence of Judaisim is not being Mechallel Shem Shomayim.
It is what’s right.
But listening to Ehud Barak’s version of Judaisim and following his sense of Priorities over the Gedolei Yisroel.
That is doing what’s wrong.
And yes that Chillul Hashem.
Massive Chillul Hashem.
Considering the fact that a good portion of my immediate family were talmidim of Rav Shach I take serious issue with someone trying to tell me what Rav Shach held.
And when you also take into account the numerous public speeches he gave (some of which have actually been translated into English) his veiws are pretty clear on this matter.
Furthermore considering the fact that I have had close reletives killed in terrorist bombings in Isreal I take exception to someone stating Chareidim don’t live in Isreal with risks.
It so happens to be that the cousins of mine that served in Tzahal all returned home safe and sound.
The Chareid cousin who boarded the wrong bus with her children lost one, and the parents live with their woumds.
Ok
Lets clarify something.
The Gemora in Meseches Chullin Daf Tzaddik Beis Amud Beis right at the top of the Amud states that one of the “Zchusim” that the umos hoilam have is that they do not write marital contracts for “mishkav zochur.
Rashi explains that is even though they actually have such unions still they do not go so far as officially issue marital contracts for them.
So the Gemora first off states clearly that the lack of “Same gender marriage recognition is one of those things which provides “zchus kiyum” and the Gemora according to Rashi clearly states that even if it is being done any way it is still far worse to officially recognize it.
Now that We know the Chazal’s views on the matter I am sure we can stop saying “well they are doing it anyway”.
yytz
You fail to address many of the points.
I raised yes the securatization of mortgages caused the Financial crisis, however those “financial products” only came about becuse the Government essentialy forced Financial Institutions to grant those loans.
Once the Government forced the banks to create those products the banks found a way to make money on them.
And again it was the Conservatives who recognized the underlying problems these loans were causing and tried to reign in Fannie and Freddie.
This is a matter of Public Record as the Clip of a House Commitee heaing where Republican Congreesman were quite concerned at what was going on is availible on You Tube and it is veiwable to one and all that it was Democratic Congressen who essentially accused them of Racisim.
Furthermore you fail to address the point that the unemployment rate of the USA is only comparable to Europe if one accepts the current high unemployment rate as a long term proposition.
8% unemployment is “normal and even low in Europe it is not in the USA where unemployment is sin a normal economy is half of that.
Furthermore it is hard to understand how one can view any Socialist large scale economy as sustainible when Historically they have never been so.
In fact all the “Socialist” programs in the USA are currently unsustainible and all economists acknowledge this.
They furthermore acknowledge that they will have toi be cut so how does adding to them make them more sustainible.
And I furthermore fail to understand how Obama contiues to be allowed to blame his economy on Bush.
Reagan inherited an economy from Carter that by the numbers was far worse then the one Obama inherited.
Reagen implemented Pro-Growth policies (to be distinguished from austerity) that resulted in an Economic Boom.
Bush inherited an economy that was in recession whent the dot-com bubble burst and some of the biggest corporations in America disapeared (Enron,WorldCom, Arthur Anderson) and was quickly followed by a body blow to the US economy with the heart of the financial district being obliterated on 9/11.
Yet Bush’s policies led to sustained long term record low unemployment of around 4%.
Obama has pumped trillions into the econonomy, he has turned the USA from the World biggest Economic Power into what is increasingly looking like the EU on steroids and he still blames Bush?
MDD And Tahini
You are ignoring a point that has been made over and over.
Satmar and other hard core anti zionists (Brisk) take no money from the Medinah, period.
Reb Zalman Leib is their distributing money because they take nothing from the Medinah, period.
Furthermore you seem to have some sort of obsession with “how things look”.
The Gedolei Yisroel and the talmidim who follow them don’t seem to have this obsession with “how things look” maybe they don’t have an identity crisis.
Instead they do what they feel is correct.
The Gedoliom have stated to serve in the ISreali Army is incorrect and to sit in Yeshiva is correct.
Now as to your slander against Meah Shearim.
It’s comical when every ISreali knows about the complete moral breakdown in Secular Isreali Society, a breakdown so complete that it has driven Tens of thousands of ISreali’s to send their children to Chareidi Yeshivos not just because they want some Torah in their lives but because they wnt them out of the dysfunctional Isreali School System.
And those people are now going to lecture us about how we should deal with problems?
And no, I did not state that The Tourisim Industry pays for all Social Welfare in Isreal it can’t since there are millions recieving benefits but only 60.000 people sitting and learning Torah.
You, however stated that the MEdinah pays for all kollel yougeleit.
That is an untruth.
Chareidim bring in plenty of money as well through tourisim, and through buisness (Yes the Chareidim have plenty of buisness I have hundreds of reletives in Eretz Yisroel and plenty of them work.
I also would posit that Satmar should be refunded the millions of dollars they are now generating for the State of ISreal since they are recieving no benefit from it.
What in the world did Ami do wrong by having Farkas interviewd?
They had previously had Hynes the DA interviewed.
I would think that it is far more even handed and fare to the stated “victim ” to interview the Attorney prosecuting the case then a “advocate” on the victims behalf.
See they interviewed the Prosecution one week and the Defense another week.
Seems pretty fair to me.
However I suspect those taking issue with Ami are not doing so because of a supposed lack of fairness.
It is rather the very fairness they take issue with.
I would also add that you have addressed an issue that goes to the heart of the economic debate.
Under Bush the unemployment rate was around 4.5%
The unemployment rate under OBama during the Economic Recovery is around 8%.
So yes under curent economic policies which in many ways have implemented the European Model Socialist state, a similar situation where 8% of the country remain unemployed is in place.
Now of course those Liberals concede the math and acknowledge that the current “Welfare state” is unsustainible, however it’s sustainible enough to ensure that it will last for this generation, while they keep power and leave the next generation holding the bag.
Again a similar situation to Europe where young people hold demonstrations in the street that the benefits promised by their elders are being taken away.
And yes the unemployment numbers do not take into account the Real Unemployment rate which includes people who have given up looking for work and is significantly higher.
Conservative Economic Policies argue that the USA is capable of at least halvong that number and contiuing to ensure that the USA remains the dominant Economic power in the world.
yytz
First off regarding the Torah view on voting.
You are correct that that facts on the ground are that universal suffrage is here to stay, however I was addressing the question of whether it is supported by the Torah.
The Rema makes clear it is not.
Regarding Health Insurance.
First off the question whether people in Europe are “happier” with their HEalth Care is irrelevent as to whether the Care is better.
I am sure you can realize that someone saying they are happy with the quality of their care does not reflect on the actual quality.
However the results of a survey done of over a 1000 seriously ill patients in Europe and the same number in the USA would be informative.
Now I am sure you will counter that there are many surveys showing longer life spans in Europe, howevet most of those surveys neglect to reveal their data i.e if they count infant deaths (in europe many studies do not, in the US they do).
They also neglect to state the qua;lity of care availible in European counties to elderly citizens.
EX. In england it used to be (I do not know the current law) illegal to grant Dialysis to people over the age of 70 while the same was not true in the USA.
This is a policy that would have grave Halachic ramifications on Jewish people who have a completley different view on the value of an elderly persons life then the secular world.
I admit I did not fully understand the myriad issues created by Socialized MEdicine until I was able to hear a 3 part shiur that spanned several hours given by Rabbi Dr. Akiva Tatz who practiced medicine in England and detailed the many Pikuach NEfesh Shailos that arise under the European Medical System.
Furthermore regarding the economy.
Greece is not the only problem.
Portugal, Spain, Ireland and other European countries actually pose the same threats.
And France actually is flirting with becoming the biggest problem of the bunch.
And to compare the economies of small countries where certain social policies are not cost prohibitive to the USA which is probably bigger population wise then all the countiresa you mentiones is avoiding a major part of the problem.
Social Policies cost money, that money must be produced.
Competent Medical Care requires Competent trained physicians those physicians must be willing to invest the time and effort to become competent.
As for US financial deregulation.
Actually the subprime mortgages that lay at the heart of the crisisabout 5 years ago were produced by financial institutions to comply with liberal economic policies.
Basically the banks were told they must lend to people even if certain populations were shown to be unable to carry the debt of owning a home.
After these “Home Equality” laws were put in place the Banks figured out how they could make money instead of continueing to lose money.
Historically it was Conservatives who tried to reighn in Fannie and Freddie and stop the underlying activities that eventually caused widespread destruction to the financial markets.
There is a clip on You Tube of an actual Congressional hearing where Democrats made clear they refused to go ahead with any attempt to address the problems that Congress knew about.
YYTZ
The poor pay very few taxes on the Federal Level so of course while you are correct that a certain amount of taxes is paid on the state level, all that would mean is that there should be a certain amount of votin rights given on a state level.
It is interesting to note that it would seem to be more then a coincedence that States are far more conservative as a whole then the Federal Level.
As for which economic model works bettter.
First off from a HI standpoint the HI given “free’ in Europe basically works unless someone os seriouslly ill.
And one would think that some consideration should be taken of the fact that European Model Economic Policies are failing left and right and dragging the entire world down with it.
Your arguements might have worked a decade ago but now?
yytz.
I do not think anyone is sstating that Liberal economic policies are categorically forbidden the question is if the Economic Model found in Chazal follows it.
The ansewer is that it is fundementally a lot closer to the Conservative model then the Liberal Progressive model.
And by the way you do realize that the Rema you qouted does state quite plainly that “all those that pay taxes” have a vote.
In other words the ones decideing are those that are paying the bills.
Much like the American Founders who made rules that only “landowners” had votes.
MDD
You know that you seem to be ignorant of History.
Facts are that the at the time of the Medinahs founding a united voice had to be ppresented to the World.
Was it certain that if not the UN vote would be lost?
No, but enough hung in the balance that the Chilonim agreed to the Compromise because of that.
Also you still have neglected to acknowledge Akupermas points or such Historical Facts as the De Haan assanation or Ben HEchts Perfidy.
As for the fact that the Chareidim are “Supported” fully by the Chilonim.
That is another lie made up out of whole cloth by the Chilonim
and they know it.
First off the hard core anti zionists (Eida Chareidis, Brisk) take no funding from the government period.
Secondly one of the biggest industries in the Medinah is Tourism and that industry as well is supported in great part by the Chareidim.
Ever check out a list of the 10 wealthiest Isrealis , try it see how many are Chareidim.
GAW
Sorry but it most certainly is not sheker.
The charities mandated on a wide basis by the Torah are personal obligations that require a person to personally and directly care and support the poor.
In addition there are Cases (you sited one but there are plenty) throughout Chazal where wealthy people were either strongly encouraged or actually compelled to donate towards communal funds for the poor.
However the community wide “Robin Hood” type taxation encouraged by liberal economic policy that has never worked and has led to the impoverishment of millions (when the rich stop investing and creating jobs and governments run out of money) is not found anywhere in the Torah.
And last I checked standard Liberal Policy pushes for “Liberal Bankruptcy Laws” which as you correctly noted are foreign to Judaisim, in Jewish Law if you borrow money from someone you must pay him back period.
And yes, Charliehall, the Torah does institute various forms of “personal” charity which was strenthened by the instution of “progressive” rates by BEis Din.
Please note though, that it is “personal charity” by those that can afford it that is mandated by the Torah not a burecratic forced taxation to a central authority in charge of giving to who they wish to give to.
And yes this would parellal the Conservative vs Liberal divide where each and every study shows that Conservatives are far more generous with their personal wealth towards others then Liberals.
This was recently evidenced by a Presidential race where both Canidates Romney and Obama were both extremley wealthy individually (Obama is a millionaire many times over) and yet while Romney gave 13% of his money to charity and his campaign was able to show multiple first accounts of his personal generosity.
Obama campaigned on forcing others to be charitable while his personal finances did not indicate anything quite like the charity he advocated.
As for Laisezz-faire.
I am unaware of a single Conservative or Republican Politician today that advocates a completley free-market system.
What they do advocate is keeping to the Principals of Capitolism that brought more people out of poverty then any other economic system in the World.
The Capitalist principals that produced the World Greatest Economic Power.
The most Charitable Society in the World.
And yes, an end to the horrible “economic experiments” that are currently being carried out on the backs of millions of hard working Human Beings who are being financially destroyed and facing a future which saddles their children with unpayable debts and broken promises that promised fiancial security but simply cannot be kept.
In other words.
Greece.
Do Chesed?
The Chilonim really want Chesed done?
Then why insist that it be done uder the banner of Sheirut LEumi?
If all Seculars cared about was “Sharing the burden” and Chareidim helping others then they should be lining up to learn from Chareidim how to do Chesed.
The backbone of Chesed in Isreal is Chareidi.
When the Mossad Director need surgery he turned to a Chareidi Medical Refferral orginazation.
The Bikur Cholim in Isreal is phenomenol the backbone of it is Chareidi and the core is Satmar.
Zaka is Chareidi, Hatzolah is Chareidi. The huge betwork of Gemachim are Chareidi.
Now the secular’s want to teach us about Chesed?
And no, the Chilonim have absolutley no interest in trying to force Chareidim to secularize.
Trying to force Toldos Aaron to take down the MEchitza’s in the heart of Meah Shearim for Simchas BEis HaShoeiva is simply because of fairness.
Forcing religous soldiers to listen as women sing is because they respect Halacha.
Having Women dress provacativley and board buses in Chareidi neighborhoods and sit next to men is because they really want to tour Ezras Torah.
And haveing Billboards with Women dressed immodestly placed in Chareidi neighborhoods is just another sign of how much Chilonim in ISreal want to live and let live.
It seems to me that it is pretty interesting that no body has even tried to refute the substance of Akuperma’s quite logical posts, that the Chareidim are the one’s that actually have the capabilitie to make peace with the Arabs and once and for all stop the deaths of thousands of Yidden.
And those who know history are also aware of the fact that historically Akuperma is correct.
The one who came closest and actually almost pulled off a real peace deal, was the Chareidi emissary to the Arabs Dr De Haan, sadly the Zionists assanated him rather then allow him to complete his work.
Lets get our History straight.
Yes the Medina exists.
However the Chareid World at the time of the Medina’s founding was bitterly opposed to it and were prepared to oppose it on the World Stage as well Ben Gurion struck a famous compromise with the Chareidim which included the guarantee that Yeshivaleit would not be forced into the Army.
So rwefusal of Yeshivaleit to “Serve” is no CH it is based upon the agreement that allowed the Zionists (who according to the secular BEn HEcht had a at least a passive role in the deaths of millions) to be able to have their State.
Now the Zionists want to abrogate their part of thedeal, not the Chareidim.