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These are quite good! Thank you!
Zalman,
I am truly sorry that you deflect sincere and constructive criticism by pretending your assertions for your defense are “Mussar”. I give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are in your twenties or thirties and have difficulty with introspection. That comes with time.
I again suggest that you print out your post and its dialogue context, for this and other threads in which you have participated, and seek guidance from your Rosh Yeshiva. Perhaps your spiritual mentor will have hashpa’a over you, perhaps not. Regardless, I believe you understand my points fully, and look forward to posts from you that truly reflect a Ben Torah.
Hatzlacha Rabbah.
Will Hill,
I think you are being wise.
Zalman,
Using an insulting name does not lend credibility to your stance. Yes, the Rabbonim and Seforim discuss these halachik issues. Frum men don’t discuss these issue with young women they meet on the street and on the internet. These issues are discussed in the Bais Medrash as well, not on the streetcorner or on blogs.
I’m not sure who you refer to by “young girl”, but I referred to young women, and you know very well who these are. Is discussing makeup with strange older women any more tznius?
I think some frum men are already past the slippery slope stage, engaging in conversations which are an astounding breach of our Mesorah of separation. The informal and highly personal dialogue found here between the genders on such a topic evidences the compromised state of tznius that is unfortunately seen with increasing frequency, particularly on the internet.
If you can handle the constructive criticism without resorting to insults, Zalman, you are definitely on the road up.
Zalman,
How is it tznius for you to be engaging in a discussion with young women regarding makeup?
Cherrybim, the only deceptive angle to this matter is the manner in which you posed your pseudo-shailah to your Rav. You asked a general question, which included a presupposition that these three young men are “criminals”, and received the answer that any ehrlich Rav would give based on the question.
Evasive? You’re the expert. May Hashem help that you are yours are never in a similar situations, notwithstanding all righteous protests that you and yours would n-e-v-e-r be so gullible…
nossond,
I liked your post. This is rather belated, but I would like to express my appreciation for ALL of your posts- I learn from them.
Zalman, forget it. I don’t think you understood my post, and I don’t think belaboring the point will help matters. Last hopeful bid- at least print this thread out in its entirety and show it to your Rosh Yeshiva or other spiritual mentor. Ask for his comments on your presentation of Halachah, and seek his guidance on future postings.
Zalman,
Does your wife wash your face for you? How about grinding your flour? You are being ridiculous, not only in your concept of “updating halachos” (Halachos don’t get “updated”, their application does- women don’t need to grind and feed animals to be fulfilling their spiritual and important role in today’s world), but in your choice of place to post this. Will Hill, you too. I am probably more Charedi than the two of you put together, and I think you need to reflect a little before you post things on an internet blog. The fact that you’re right re the discriminate door opening (man for woman and not vice versa) does not lend wisdom to your manner of presentation. Please, a little seichel.
It’s difficult to believe that an individual is expending time and effort in dissuading others from assisting three young men who were terribly misled and are in a horrific situation. Some things simply boggle the mind.
Josh:
Let us use the proper English word for this topic: Bible, among others (Pentateuch, Commentaries, Prophets, etc). 🙂
Ames,
If it was my words that caused you pain, I beg for your Mechilah. It was not my intention to cause heartache.
Ames,
Gevald. (If I knew more Yiddish, I might have come up with a better one). I really don’t know if your post was completely referencing mine or not. Perhaps you are mixing up my post with others, perhaps you were addressing a few posters at once. I have no information regarding Yiddish, as it is not my “mother tongue”. I do not know if it inherently holy; I will leave that question to those bigger and better than me.
If my critique hurt you, I am sorry. I hope that you understand my points, as I do yours.
Jothar,
I have no sources, because I have no knowledge of the question at hand. I addressed Ames specifically, because she took a startling “my way or the highway” approach in her “Yiddish is just one more way to give the impression that someone or a group of people are holier than thou. It’s only an illusion of frumkeit. It’s not real.”
These fine families in Williamsbugh, New Square, the Tosh community, and others don’t speak Yiddish to give you some “impression” that they are holier than Ames. Furthermore, I would think the sweeping put-downs to large swaths of Jews without careful thought is truly reflective of “illusions of frumkeit”.
I completely agree with your assertion that “Many who speak Yiddish do so because that is the language that they’re taught in. I have no problem with that. My father knew Yiddish from his father, and I’m still disappointed that we did not speak any Yiddish at home. It is a beautiful language…” although the language is unfamiliar to me.
If one feels put-down because the family down the block speaks Yiddish, I think some introspection is needed. I’m a pretty easy-going individual, but this shocker about something as innocent as someone’s language really threw me for a loop.
I did not address the other factors you mention; Ames’ quote as seen above was not qualified by “if the individual speaks Yiddish and yells at me that I’m not speaking a heilige language…”.
Ames, we all experience occasions of “typing before thinking”, myself included. I could not let this go without some protest for tolerance, and I’m sure that your post was a passing slip.
ames
Member
“Yiddish is just one more way to give the impression that someone or a group of people are holier than thou. It’s only an illusion of frumkeit. It’s not real.”
My mouth was literally open when I read this startling example of “my way or the highway”.
There are many fine beautiful families that raise their children in the language they know best- Yiddish. This is their choice, because it is their “mama loshon”. To interpret their language as “holier than thou” or “an illusion of frumkeit” is the height of twisted perspective.
I myself know barely a word of Yiddish, yet I respect individual and family differences. I know quite a few Syrian families who speak Arabic at home and amongst themselves- do you consider this holier than thou as well? How about my neighbor, who speaks Persian (I think the language goes by another name)? She’s also trying to be more pious than you? Can you not permit one to speak in the language with which they are most comfortable?
Shaking my head at this attitude of “my way or bust”…
Pashute Yid,
You write from the heart. I am wondering if it is possible that the easy use of “Kannoim” can also be construed as derogatory and a breach in Bain Adam L’Chaveiro?
This is offered simply as a springboard for reflection, not critisism.
Here, dd, this might help you:
chaimss,
Hatzlacha. May you find and succeed in the path that is best for you on all levels.
“Now I realize that he is a vile enemy of Torah Judaism.”
The drama here is beyond amusing. Perhaps some nice relaxing music can help…
“Wrong again Joseph”
torahis1 meant to say, “I disagree, Joseph. I think the bloodiest day was Easter.”