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Non-political
I can understand if you don’t hear this argument that I’m contending regarding the parameters of Minhag, but I don’t understand at all why you are saying that its internally inconsistent for me to argue this way.By the way, after doing a little more research and iyun, it became more clear that not only is the issue here dependent on how many people it takes to establish a minhag, and for how long etc, but more fundamentally on the basis for following Minhag Yisrael in general: Some Poskim seem to understand that it is only because it acts as a proof that there must have been a legitimate Psak by a Rav in the first place that initiated the whole Minhag (and the Psak just became forgotten, and now ‘revived’)–in which case you would not have that over here, as there doesn’t seem to be any Rav who initially was ‘machshir’ the production of this song with full knowledge of its origins. Other Achronim from later centuries however clearly express the idea that the basis for following Minhag Yisroel is that Klal Yisrael is zoche to a special Hashgacha from Shamayim, and that if a sizeable group of Yidden act in a certain way (again, it obviously has to be justifiable within halacha, like here where there is a daas yochid and another sevara to rely on) it automatically has the stamp of Heaven on it being machshir it. What’s considered ‘sizeable’ would still be up to the Posek to assess, along with this fundamental issue of how much inherent chashivus to attribute to a Minhag Yisrael.
A fascinating sugya to the say the least!To reiterate: I don’t think this sevara is crazy-novel; its very much within reason, just a novelty that would take a lot of courage to say on our own, but the koach of a minhag Yisrael would encourage us to do so.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear, but as Ive been saying a number of times, there are multiple components that make up the argument–this sevara (or alternatively, relying on a daas yachid like R’ Ovadiah zt”l) is being used after the fact that it has become (arguably, la’aniyas dati) a minhag Yisrael to justify it, because thats how ‘organically produced’ Minhag Yisrael works–it encourages us to find a smach/basis for something, even though we might now have done so a initially, consciously; we wouldn’t say to rely on a das yachid or on a novel sevarah like this to be matir a de’orisa chamura before any such minhag exists.
I’m not suggesting we start any new minhagim now re haloween… 😉
ashreinu that we have such amazing genuine moadim! a gutten yom tov!yeshivishrockstar
You’re right, don’t be caught up in the ‘balance, subtlety’ stuff if it makes you uncomfortable; that was only a part of a part of the follow-up to the main arguments that I made. So far, I think only one of those points have actually been contested with any sort of reasoned argument–by one person, nevillechaimberlin.nevillechaimberlin
The sevara is that here it wasn’t ‘converted’ by Jews–already before it reached the hands of even the secular Israeli Jews who translated it, it had become largely associated with the ‘neutral’ rainbow gatherings and the like, and the meaning of the vague keyphrase of the song ‘I feel it in my soul/ruchi ve’nishmasi’ was/is open to whatever the person singing it has in mind. This is one of the main points I mentioned in the beginning.nonpolitical
The YWN cofferoom is obviously not a place where psak is happening. This is sort of like a virtual beis medrash–at least re these Torah-related topics, I’m not sure about the summer camp stuff :)–where we are all sharing our views and judgment calls on these Torah topics, while ultimately it is the view and judgement call of your Posek that will decide for you practically.
Does that make things clearer?I was suggesting my humble opinion on the matter that this does in fact get the status of a Minhag and would thus be justified with the other factors mentioned before–R’ Ovadiah’s daas yachid as well as the sevara that R’ Moshe could also agree here (see above), but like all significant matters that a person is unsure about, one should consult his Rav.
My friend, you–and I, and every other Yid–are called upon to open your G-d given human faculties and use them, not to follow any sort of baseless ‘flowy emotional stuff’. I really don’t know why terms like ‘balance’ and ‘nuance’ come across at all as scary, vague, evil, or unnerving–they are basic features of Torah and life!
I have yet to hear from you any substantive response to the actual halachic points–many of them–that have been made. There is absolutely nothing extra-halachic about what I’ve said–it all goes into dealing with the shailah at hand in a real and comprehensive way, determining what is Ratzon Hashem. Life is complex and Halacha is complex.
May Hashem open our whole minds to see the whole truth and beauty of His Torah and creation.NevilleChaimBerlin
Thank you for bringing things back to a course of reasoned debate–that “a pop song that came out recently” is not considered a Minhag Yisrael–almost all the dissents for the past while have been lacking any substance, just venting frustration and negativity.
Its amazing that we have such strong sensitivities to a”z, ashreichem Yisrael, be’emes, but please–let’s let only clear-headed reasoning lead every discussion and comment.
To be fair and honest, all my talk about balance does also have to be balanced also–by the need for simple whole-hearted Temimus, letting the neshama’s pure senses of yashrus and emunah shine forth, but certainly this has to work together with the complexities and analysis of the seichel. That combo is what gives us our unique Shleimus of being Yidden!
To address your point about this being considered a Minhag or not, this gets into what I responded before to Shopping613, that the parameters of ‘Minhag Yisrael’ are not clearly defined in Halacha and need to be determined by a Posek assessing the situation. I can definitely hear the possibility of the argument that you are making that this is not considered a Minhag, but I can also definitely hear the argument that it is, being that it has been played and sung a lot around chasunas, events, shuls, etc over the past year or so. Once again, bring it to your Rav to decide, I’m just putting forth another deiah that I think deserves to be heard out.Yeshivishrockstar,
Is there any toeles be’emes in such comments?
If you’re seeking to ‘defeat negative forces’ out there, the greatest way to do it is to look for the positive trait that they do have and bring it into your own broader worldview, so instead of making a mockery of these important concepts why not stress their chashivus while plugging it into your broader framework, whether its about being a yeshivish rockstar or whatever else makes up your worldview.
In short: don’t negate, integrate.Yeshivishrockstar,
You began this thread nice and objectively with a fact-based accounting. Please stick to that approach of dealing with the facts and points being made; there’s no need, no point, and no virtue in resorting to subjective comments that just put other people down.
If you have something of substance to say in addressing one of the points that was made, I’m very happy to hear it.RebYidd,
Every single halacha, like every matter in life, has subtle nuances to it, making it subject to different viewpoints and variations– chilukei dayos and chilukim. The big three aveiros are no exception, only that with them we are generally more machmir in cases of doubt (and of course really with any de’oraisa we are machmir in a safek). Despite this severity however, the arguments have been laid out that this case is different because it is a Minhag Yisrael, which is equivalent to a Rav paskening that it is proper, so long as it can be shown not to contradict Halacha either by a) relying on a pre-existing daas yachid (in this case R’ Ovadiah Yosef) or b) relying on a sevara that is within reason, even if it is a chiddush (in this case–the fact that R’ Moshe could very well agree here that is fine since in current times the song seems to be primarily associated with neutral/open-ended intentions of Rainbow-Gathering-members and the like, no longer sung primarily in an a”z context).
This is some of the ‘balance’ within the halacha itself, before even getting to the major balancing act regarding the practical application of the halacha to this particular setting–should we be extra machmir beyond the base-line halacha or would that be an inappropriate chumra, and that gets into all of the complicated social and psychological factors listed above.Shopping613,
1. Minhag Yisrael is not about Rabbonim coming together and initiating something, as was suggested before (that would be in the realm of a takana), but rather it is organically developed over time by a larger group of Torah-following Jews. There is no exact number given in halacha for the amount of people involved in order to get the status of a minhag. Certainly a whole town’s involvement would create a ‘minhag’ in that town, but beyond that the parameters are not ‘black and white’ and must be determined by the Posek, which leads into…
2. Of course this issue, like any other significant one that you are not sure about, should be brought before your Rav. I am merely responding to the dayos of others that were posted on this thread with my own humble daas, trying to bring out points that I think help clarify the full picture of this ‘sugya’.RebYidd,
You’re right that an abstract concept like balance can become easily thrown about, popularized and superficialized into a meaningless word, but it can’t be denied that in truth, balance is a real matter of great Torah-life-value. Ask any Rav and they will tell you that ‘shikul ha’daas’–i.e. taking into account and weighing all the varying relevant factors in a situation–is most crucial in Halacha, both in the initial stage of clarifying the sugya in Shas and Poskim, and in the important follow up stage of applying the yesodos of the sugya to the situation at hand. We all know that things are not at all black and white, not in the theoretical world of limud haTorah and not in the practical world of kiyum haTorah. Life is full of grey, or to put it in more pleasant (and accurate) terms–many different colors.
This shailah at hand–even with something as serious and ‘black and white’ as the issur a”z!–is a beautiful case in point.Yes, there are two issues here that have been discussed from the beginning of this thread till now: a) is it inherently muttar or not, and it was explained about 25 replies ago that there are two different arguments that justify this minhag yisrael, ayin sham. b) is it appropriate to be machmir here, being that there’s a possibility of a”z, and that was addressed in these last replies.
To list a few very significant factors for why this issue is about more than just a ‘chill’:
1) Many Yidden get a great hisorerus from this song, and its not just another nice tune–the words carry a unique message that is not stressed a lot elsewhere: the profound idea of connecting to Hashem through His beriah, not just on an intellectual/left-brain level but “be’ruchi ve’nishmasi”–on a soulful/right-brained level. Perhaps not everyone out there relates to this concept so much, and some are quick to relegate this to the bin of avodah zara notions, but many neshamos genuinely connect to the Kevod Hashem that fills kol ha’aretz. The song in question powerfully brings out this experience for many such people, and to rob them of this–when there are indeed legitimate arguments to serve as a basis for this minhag Yisrael, as explained clearly in my postings above–would be would be a terrible loss and shame.
2) On the negative side–there are real consequences of causing machlokes and pain to many different people involved here, from the producers and singers, to those who really enjoy it and those who requested that it be sung by their simchos (and again, there are legitimate arguments to validate this minhag, so as not to require that we make a machlokes out of it).
3) When it comes to ‘being too machmir’ in general and this case included–one of the big things that turn kids (and adults) off of Yiddishkeit is that they perceive it to be overly restrictive and harsh in an imbalanced way. We need to SHOW them that a life of Torah and Mitzvos is not at all dark and primitive, simplistic shallow and narrow-minded, etc, but rather deeply profound, broad-minded and empowering, embracing the truth and beauty of life in its FULL entirety. By simply leaving things as ‘lets just be machmir with it’ we are adding fuel to their fire and indeed making our Torah-lifestyle less balanced and broad-minded than our Maker wants it to be. We should be strict when that is really called for, and permissive when that is really called for; spiritually oriented and halachically G-d fearing; looking for all the practical, emotional and psychological factors at hand in every situation. With this ideal of ‘balancing-both’ at the forefront of our focus, we will bring ourselves the full enrichment that Torah-life has to offer, and our children and neighbors will see and wish to take part.
As Shlomo Hamelech summed up: “lakol zeman, ve’es lechol chefetz tachas ha’shamayim–there is a time for everything, and a moment for every drive under the heavens”.
{I humbly request that whoever reads this last point do so carefully and patiently. Although it’s not too complicated or deep, it contains profound wisdom, and yet it is not in line with the way many people naturally think. This matter of embracing complexity and balancing opposing ideals is not the most common trait. Not surprising that it is rooted in the words of the wisest of all kings and men.
Forgive me if it sounds at all like I’m preaching here, I just feel very strongly about this matter.}As stated there in the last post: “Minhag Yisrael (within the aforementioned parameters) is a great great Rav”
If a great Rav would say this isn’t avodah zara, but rather a pareve and even proper song of connecting to Hashem (if sung with the right intentions like good Yidden do), I hope you wouldn’t have any reservations about embracing it. Minhag Yisrael (within the aforementioned parameters) is a great great Rav.
Being too meikel is dangerous, and so is being too machmir. The bathwater needs to be clean, but don’t throw out the baby along with it.Shopping613–you’re obviously right that minhag yisrael isn’t a freeforall, but you didn’t quote the end of that sentence in which I clarified and qualified the extent of it.
To reiterate and clarify what I wrote before:
–R’ Ovadiah is meikel even when it was used for a”z mamash, he doesn’t go with this Ram”a at all.
–The words most commonly sung today (even among goyim) as the pivotal punch line are ‘i feel it in my body, i feel it in my soul=ani margish zos begufi, beruchi ve’nishmasi’. These words are not inherently a”z whatsoever, just very open and vague and dependent on the kavanah of the singer–they could be sung with the intent of a”z or of connecting to something very kadosh, as there are plenty of sensitive neshamos–Jewish and goyish–that feel something deep in nature and don’t misconstrue it into a”z, and many if not most of the people who sing this song today–Jewish and goyish–have this kosher kavana in mind, thus making it arguable that even R’ Moshe would be meikel with it, thus being a legitimate basis for the current minhag Yisrael3 important points:
1. It can well be said that singing ‘adamah veshamayim…’ today has become a Minhag Yisrael and gets that special halachic status, which would mean that it is automatically valid as long as there is ANY legitimate backing for it–i.e. even if that backing may be a daas yochid, or a sevarah which is more mechudash, as long as it is reasonable–such as:
2. R’ Ovadiah Yosef (certainly qualifying as at least a daas yochid even for Ashkenazim!) is meikel altogether with ‘transporting nigunnim’ as Avi K quoted above.
3. It is arguable that even R’ Moshe would agree in this case that its ok–not only because some Jews came along and translated the words into Hebrew with the problematic line being left out, but more significantly because even in the world at large, this song–i.e. the tune and general words–seems to be primarily associated with non-inherently-avodah-zarah-groups, such as Rainbow Gatherings and the like (as evident from the testimonies of those above about the relevant google searches), using the words ‘i feel it in my body, i feel it in my soul” which are very open and ‘pareve’. The original words of ‘i feed it to my source’ (which itself is also somewhat vague) are hardly known and associated anymore with this song, even among the goyim.It seems that Klal Yisroel is relying either on R’ Ovadyiah or on this sevarah!
These are the two days of the year when we can come in contact with the deepest parts of our souls, along with the deepest secrets of the Heavens.
On Yom Kippur we transcend the limitations of this world and RISE UP to these heights; on Purim ‘all Heaven breaks loose’ and FLOWS OUT into this world. The deep, holy love of the G-dly Jewish People–the Kodesh Kadoshim–is revealed on these two days, whether we ascend to enter it’s elevated world or it descends to enter ours.
Purple is the color of Malchus; its beyond the ‘six sides’ of the different colors because it encompasses and integrates them all (See the Ramban’s explanation of the Mitzvah of putting Techeiles on tzitzis). If anything, it would be in the central core of the cube, where all the colors are connected together!
A freielechen Pur…im 🙂
Yasher koach again newbee for leading this amazingly beautiful and truthful thread. I think your sentiment about this topic being most fundamental to Judaism/life and yet most ignored is pretty much hitting on the Ramchal’s laments in the intro to Mesillas Yesharim, ayin sham. Its definitely not a new problem, and it didnt start from him either–probably since the very beginning of religion!
A lot of amazing approaches here (and more than anything, the question I feel was most beautiful) and I think there’s room for all of them to be true:
It would seem to be clear that overall–the way to feel Hashem’s Presence is by fulfilling the Mitzvah of ‘????? ??’–being connected to Him. What’s not clear is what this ‘Dveykus’ means exactly? Chazal explain it though: ‘by connecting to His ?????–Modes of Behaviors’. Still a bit unclear–what exactly are Hashem’s ‘Derachim’? Again, Chazal explain: Hashem has three primary traits, as we say ‘Gadol–Great, Gibor–Mighty & Norah–Awesome’, also known as ‘Chesed–free-flowing loving-kindness, Gevurah–restrictive, reclusive restraint & Tiferes–the beautiful blend of balancing the primary pair of Chesed and Gevurah together.
Being that our Neshamos are be’Tzelem Elokim, we naturally possess these G-dly traits within us, the Divine Energies are already buried inside our hearts. We just need to actualize them in real life and then we will experience them directly, with all their G-dly Goodness.
Thus, any act of free-flowing kindness/love/joy/positive expansive energy will bring out a real manifestation of Kedusha and Dveykus–i.e. that sweet, special feeling you have in any of the above actions is in fact a connection with G-dliness, in Chesed-form.
But in the other direction as well, any act of mighty restraint to transcend the external levels of life and reach towards the Higher Source will also bring about a manifestation of Kedusha and Dveykus, in Gevurah-form–that pure, righteous feeling of rising above lower trappings and coming closer to the Source of life. And even further–balancing these two opposing forces together brings out an even greater degree of G-dliness to delight in.
That’s all just from connecting to Hashem’s MODES OF BEHAVIOR. On top of that, its obviously possible as well to behold Hashem’s Presence from STUDYING the AREAS WHERE He is present: the outer realms of His creation, the inner realms, and the Master-Map of all of creation–the Torah.
Holy Books say that the Geulah-process of Mashiach HAS been coming already–over the last decades , centuries and even millenia. The Yerushalmi compares the coming of Mashiach to the GRADUAL increase of light in a sunrise–little by little, moment by moment. Because its so slow and gradual its hard to discern, but ‘slow and steady wins the race.’ So the question would not be ‘IS he coming tonight?’ but ‘HOW is he coming tonight? In WHAT WAY and FORM is he coming, today tonight and tomorrow?’