bais yakov maidel

Levaryehboy,

“Do boys and girls also watch adult content equally” No, men outdo women in general. But statistically, women do it as well, much more than you think. Besides, there are analogous things that females are more prone to doing that men don’t do. But it’s the same taivah driving it. Just the other side of the same coin.

“Also, why do boys have mitzvos of shmiras einayim which virtually do not apply to girls?”

Some say it applies to women as well. My rav, though, holds that it does not because there is no ensuing issur as a result. This does NOT mean it is recommended for a woman to view inappropriate material or that she should, or that it’s good. It’s just that, strictly speaking, it does not hold the same issur. I think that’s the most I can say in such a forum.

However, although I have no problem discussing any of these topics, I would like to ensure that this thread does not get closed, so let’s try to keep everything appropriate please, and not veer too much off the main topic.

Apparently, Sam2 was the only one who understood me. 🙂

“Also shows me the superficiality with which you grasp chazal’s statements.” This line was supposed to make it obvious that I was sarcastic by saying chazal didn’t want women to learn gemara because they will be offended. Goodness.

Peirsuh: If levaryehboy thinks the gemara is insulting women, he has a superficail grasp of what chazal meant when they said certian things.

Or, his biases automatically make him think certian things are denigrating to women, when, they are really not.

My proof of this:

“Learning in-depth about blood stains, the obligations a woman has to her husband, the very graphic descriptions and logical analyses of hara’ah, neshikas ha’ever, shelo k’darkah … (need I say more?) may offend your somewhat feminist, or at least feminine, self.”

I was laughing really hard when I read this paragraph. I cannot for the life of me understand why any of this would me more offensive to a woman than a man. The only reason it would be offensive is if you MAKE it offensive. Like LevAryehBoy does quite well. There is nothing OBJECTIVELY offensive in any of this.

1) “obligations a woman has to her husband”… Do you find it insulting when you learn about the D’ORAISA obligations of onah a man has to his wife? This carries much more halachic weight than the other way around.

2) “learning in depth about blood stains”. Would you find it insulting to learn in-depth about the halachos applying to a male zav? Or other forms of tumah?

3) “the very graphic descriptions and logical analyses of… neshikas ha’ever, shelo k’darkah … ” Why in the world would any of this be offending to a woman and not a man? And what in the world do they have to do ith feminism?

“From the moment you asked earlier why the boys would look at the girls but the girls wouldn’t look at the boys, I realized that you obviously don’t know the differences between boys and girls,”

Again, this provided some good comic relief. Levaryehboy – you need to learn to read more critically.

I have some news for you about the “difference between boys and girls” – some things are not that different. In a room full of adolescent boys and girls, the girls are looking at the guys too. Maybe a a little less because they are not as visual, but trust me, they are looking. So here’s some education for you.

“You also said you were intelligent.”

No I didn’t, but thank you for the compliment.

Sigh. I think some posters could use a boost in reading comprehension. Maybe Sam2 could help.

little sally saucer: I address a lot of your questions throughout the thread. Have you gone through the entire thing? I do not want to repeat myself.

“No need to learn Gemora and become even more confused about things you never thought of.”

Why in the world would learning gemara confuse me? It would confuse me to the same extent it confuses the thousands of men who learn gemara every day.

Anyway, thank you all for your input. I spoke to one of my rabbis, who is a rosh yeshiva, and got a positive green light to learn gemara. Whatever. Just proves to me that my reasoning was right all along. And if I’d done it without asking would it be wrong? I think not, because I would not be violating any halacha anyway.

Now the question is only how and when I will do it.

This post has already taken too much time from me… so I’ll leave you all to argue the rest through.

“Just like most of the science of 50 years ago has been debunked today and is irrelevant”

WIY: Really? That’s news to me.

I don’t know what kind of science you are referring to. The science that I know all builds on the work of previous scientists.

The only reason I might be more impressed with science, is because I know more about it. Not because it is inherently “better” than torah study.

Very nice story about the chazon ish. I also happen to know from someone very close to the greineman family (relatives of the chazon ish) that the chazon ish read medical books in his youth.

And I’m sure you know that the Rambam learned to become a doctor… not by learning torah (although maybe it helped?) but by apprenticing with a doctor.

Anyway, the chazon ish may have been brilliant and had medical knowledge. That doesn’t prove that one can know science on a deep level just from learning torah.

You need to make sure that the examples you bring actually prove what you are trying to say.

Besides, if it is true that one can know medicine/sciene on a deep level from learning torah, there should be (or have been in the past) many many more talmidie chachamim/gedolim who would do what the chazon ish did. And there aren’t. (And weren’t)

WIY: Do you know how many rebetzins and rabbi’s I have spoken to already? And you keep forgetting – I am the rebetzin. 🙂

In fact, I even tried to bring up this topic to a GADOL – yes a real gadol whose name you know. It took hurculean effort to meet him in person. I went to ask him a question unrelated to this topic and then figured – may as well ask about this too. It took an additional dose of hurculean effort to bring up this topic, but I overcame my bais-yakov ingrained bushah and broached the topic and got: “This is how Hashem made it, this is the tevah and it’s not good to tamper with it…” Or something to that effect.

As a ninteen-year-old, I sort of just swallowed it – like a bitter pill you need to take.

But my brain had been aired out a bit since then.

And I have more to say on the GADOL/Daas Torah topic because it has impacted my life directly in a non-positive way.

WIY: Stop being so afraid.

You remind me of some other people I know who follow the same pattern: 1) they beseech me to get the “help” I need and talk to a rav or rebetzin – who of course – they would approve of 2) then they begin to panic and try to coerce my into remaining in their camp of belief, or else I am an apikorus or what not 3) they raise their hands in surrender “I did my part”, and stay away because the hashkafos they are hearing (from me) will contaminate them.

Don’t worry – whatever I do, it’s not on your cheshbon.

You did your part.

Besides, I AM the rebetzin. Remember? 🙂

“So I’d like to ask you, if you’re so confused yourself, why are you you teaching? Would you teach science if you didn’t understand it? A teacher needs to be able to help her students understand. What are you doing in the education system?”

Sanityisoverated: Did your read my second post?? I HAVE been teaching. Not anymore. And read the paragraph about modifying my teaching as my thinking changed. Besides, I still think I did a better job than 95% of teachers who think they know what they are talking about.

“The only flaw seems to be your assumption that you have studied everything. You clearly know a lot, but no-one can know everything.”

Again, read my second post. I do not want to repeat myself.

“which unfortunately no one really writes in this day and age. “Popular frum hashkafa” is IMHO mostly shallow”

Gavra: Not shallow… silly. There’s a difference. Shallow just means it’s elementary. Like 2+2=4. Silly is 2+2=6 because really there’s an extra 1 hidden in each two.

Is there any logical principle or proof (or POSSIBILITY of proof) that leads to this conclusion? If not, I see no reason to accept it.

WIY: If you would be born into a christian, muslim, or buddist societal frame, you’d be saying about yeshu, mohammen and buddah that THEY don’t need our approval and how dare we ever question them. You have not taken the time or energy to think if you really believe in the Jewish frame. You are parroting the stuff you heard from your rebbeim or read in books.

Assuming you believe the Rambam when he says in his hakdama that everything written in the Gemara is a Halacha l’Moshe Misinai, Hashem Himself said on Har Sinai that the closeness a woman attains through learning will not be accomplished by learning Gemara.

I would like to know where Hashem said this at har sinai.

And like Sam2 said, the rambam DOES NOT say in the hakdamah that everything written in the gemara in halacah l’moshe misinai. YOU should know that.

Have you been reading “Chaim B’Emunasam”?

WIY, I read some of rav kaplans books… they are good but don’t address many of the things I want to know. I read rabbi tatz’s books when I was a teenager. I liked some of his stuff, but not everything… some of the hashkafa in his books seemed ungrounded to me,

thank you all for your replies.

Computer777, it is halachically permissible for a woman to learn gemara. I’ve been through this myself with the sources, with my father who is a rav, and with my husband. What is forbidden is for a father to teach his own daughter gemara and the reason (given by one of my husband’s rebeeim – that actually makes sense) is because he will likely be too soft on her because it’s his daughter – and gemara requires a certain rigor.

How can it be assur for a woman to learn gemara if the ramabam clearly says that a woman is exempt from learning torah but if she does she gets schar? (And he is not talking about learning halachos that are pertinent to her, or chumash…) You cannot get schar for doing something assur.

“If you were truly sincere, maybe you’d find the roads less blocked. Reading through your post though, you seem to have already given up on learning for the sake of learning, and now wish to prove your worth as a woman.”

Sigh. I am so tired of this argument. I have taught limudei kodesh – virtually every subject- on a a high school level for close to a decade. You think another ten years of hashkafa and chumash and meforshim are going to do it? I know – it’s my yetzer horah trying to get me off the right track.

With time, there were many things I could not teach anymore beacuse either I stopped believing it, or I had too many questions about it. And I’m not preaching to a class of impressionable adolescents ANYTHING I do not absolutely know to be true or right. I have no desire to perpetuate the insincerity I’ve encountered in some of my education.

Yes, I have given up on learning another hashkafa sefer. I’ve had my fill of breadth. I am looking for depth and reasoning. I’m not looking for more information. I’ve reached my fill. More facts will do nothing for me. It’s actually reaching the point of diminishing returns. The more hashkafa I read, the more stupid everything seems. I’d rather not do anymore damage.

This past shabboss I picked up a book at my parents house written by a well-known Rav. The book was hashakfa about a woman’s role etc… there were so many logical contradictions… it makes the whole hashkafa edifice seems downright stupid.

The reason I think that gemara will help is the following: I was once a guest by someone on shabboss and a discussion about gemara came up. The host explained to me how gemara works and then proceeded to give me an example that we worked through together. And I was pretty impressed. Apparently, he’s way more skilled than your avergage yeshiva bachur, and thus was able to break it down sufficiently for a novice to understnad.

But a little light went off in my head: “Hey,this stuff is not so stupid after all…”

Of course I will always have questions and one’s quest for truth is never fully reached… that’s ok.

And I’m angry that so much of my time in high school and beyond was wasted on more memorization and more hashkafa when I could have been given the skills to learn gemara. And I could gave been doing it myself now.

They should have an optional track for girls to learn gemara. Of course if you hire incompetent teachers, you’re not accomplishing much. But it’s like that in every area.

Trust me, you will not have the entire high school signing up. You’ll have 5-10%… maybe.

“If your are BY literate, you can comb through the Medrashim, ALL the Neviim, the great works of Haskafa of the Rishonim, and, as we are now textual based, there is no limit of study aids and secondary adjuncts to Talmud study.”

twisted: I appreciate the suggestions, but again, I’ve combed enough through them to know that it will do nothing for me to keep combing through them.

We don’t expect men to go through all of chumash, navi, medrash, halacha, kesuvim, works of rishonim (list goes on and on) before they learn gemara. Why the double standard?

Avi K: “However, as a rule women think more emotionally and men think more logically”

A nice stereotype. I think it applies more in the context of relationships and interaction with people. Not when in comes to thinks that, by definition, are logical. A man does not think more logically about a scientific experiment than a woman. I would think the same about gemara, because it is inherently a logical activity.