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Is it only a coincidence that since Kollel life became the way to go for most Bais Yaakov type girls, we have many more older single girls?
I brought up this point earlier:
AZ stated: As it stands now even if we pushed a magic button and all girls had a million dollars in the bank we would still have the exact same crisis because there are just not enough pants for the skirts.
I responded:If all girls had a million dollars, guys and Shadchanim wouldn’t have to look among the new young crop to find new Shvers able to support easily.
Meaning, the older “not as rich” girls get left over because guys look for “new on the market” rich girls, when the supply runs out.
Jothar, I’m not sure if your comment was meant to be sarcastic, and whether you’re pro Nasi or against it. If against, are you recommending that those who are ill, should not seek medical advice?
Those who are fundraisers for Kollelim, put in as much Hishtadluas as possible to bring in as much money as possible, and similarly, those who are living
in the age of the Shidduch crisis ought to try to ease it in whatever ways are possible.
AZ,
re: As it stands now even if we pushed a magic button and all girls had a million dollars in the bank we would still have the exact same crisis because there are just not enough pants for the skirts.
If all girls had a million dollars, guys and Shadchanim wouldn’t have to look among the new young crop to find new Shvers able to support easily.
I hear the emotionally charged and hurtful words of BenTorahJew, and suspect that he or close family members of his must have been hurt by the money/support situation linked to Yeshivish Shidduchim.
I feel that the money/support issue IS linked to the Shidduch Crisis in some way, because learning boys who need support, are forced to look among younger girls for Shidduchim (the young rich girls get grabbed up quickest, forcing the boys to look among the newer crop of rich girls), needing a Shver most able to support for the number of years the Bochur desires to learn.
I don’t think anyone here hasn’t heard of cases where the boys’ Roshei Yeshiva tell the boys to marry the girl whose father can support the longest, enabling their Talmidim to learn the longest. While there are some, I’ve heard of much less Roshei Yeshiva who encourage boys to look for girls who are very Mistapek b’Muat or from very Yeshivish homes.
Something to think about!
tzippi:
re:These guys feel frustrated, and deeply feel, because this is how Hashem wired them, a failure for not being able to take care of their families properly. But no one told them they ever would have to.
Males who grew up in two parent households, by and large, saw firsthand- “B’Zayas Apecha Tochal Lechem”. All boys see their fathers providing Parnasa, by the time these boys reach their twenties, and most of them way, way, sooner.
I wholeheartedly agree though that those adjustment years from the time they leave learning until they make money, are often miserable. That’s why it doesn’t hurt to have an educated wife!
tzippi, as far as preparedness for marriage with “careers”, I wish I’d have some money for every girl I know who married young and naive and wishes she would have completed her career before marriage. Pleasing schoool, work, house, social obligations, kids, and husbands requirements and needs ain’t no fun, all at the same time as paying bills, even with parental help.
We all know that once the girls have careers, more often than not, they earn for a few hours what their uneducated peers earn a week.
re:#3. Try to deter girls from getting married after Seminary…
I believe I’ve read more than once in this thread where AZ encourages Shadchanim to focus on the older girls!!!! I don’t recall him suggesting to disallow younger girls from getting married when they please.
proud tatty,
re: your points #1 an #3
1- The letter begins by speaking of the “shidduch issue that is plaguing our country”!!! and ends with a request to marry “older girls”.
3- It clearly recommends marrying “older girls”.
How much more does the letter have to do a “Rachel Bitcha Haktana”?
Who what when and where is being the ventriloquist here??
Just the opposite. Sounds to me like s/o is muzzling
1. To put a muzzle on (an animal).
2. To restrain from expression: tried to muzzle the opposition.)
and muffling
1. To wrap or pad in order to deaden the sound: muffled the drums.
2. To deaden (a sound): The sand muffled the hoofbeats
the Gedolim’s words, r”l.
I have one question.
WHY didnt this letter become more publicized?
AZ, I have not been this uplifted in a long time.I thank you very much.
This letter should be printed in every frum newspaper regularly.
re:It’s so simple…. Just bring home the boys from E”Y six months earlier & we’ll see many more Simchos IY”H!!
lkwdfellow, and what would you put into place to help those girls who are already 23, 24 and on?
PM, “Since most boys will not consider a girl older then themselves,”
I haven’t heard of anyone suggesting that boys go out with girls older. Only that they should not go out with girls much younger.
tzippi, my jaw is dropping as well when I read the suppositions offered by some naysayers here… of what might happen if the NASI project is seriously encouraged by people of importance and influence…..
I bet it hasn’t reached the top yet….I’m gearing up for ….Suppose as a result of closing the age gap someone will get an ingrown toenail…….
Ridiculous hypotheses lead to ridiculous responses.
re:Asking girls to marry 2 years later is asking them to give up 10-15% or their fertile years. That’s a huge sacrifice to demand to statistically improve the odds of a small number of girls getting married. I can’t imagine which one of my kids I would be willing to give up even for the most worthy of causes.
PM, they can still have a dozen or more babies if they get married at 23, for instance. How many pregnancies can the average woman’s body tolerate? Twelve seems a pretty nice and generous amount to me. How many families in Lakewood have more than a dozen kids? I’m quite sure not all of them got married at 19 or 20.
re:Azoi.is: you’ve seriously undermined the whole premise of your theory. If MO who marry closer in age have the same surplus of girls, obviously the “age gap” is not the primary factor in the shidduch crisis.
I have firsthand info from a Matchmaker on SYAS. Very rarely do couples marry close in age. Actually many girls marry guys 6 – 8 years older.
Squeak, please clarify for us all what you’ve accomplished on this thread (other than criticizing and ridiculing with an assortment of fancy words and phrases thrown in).
Just curious, you wanted to be an attorney, right?
squeak, I thought I’d stop responding to you, but I just had to.
“And in the Jewish world at large this problem is unheard of. The problem belongs only to this concentrated group”
ABSOLUTELY WRONG! There is the identical problem in the Modern Orthodox liberal, Modern Orthodox “middle of road”, Modern Orthodox Machmir, YU- to the left, YU to the right, circles as well!!!! with many more girls than boys. I’ve spoken to many Shadchanim that cater to those crowds, and they all agree. Ask any of the hundreds of Sawyouatsinai matchmakers. They’re singing the same song as us on Yeshivaworld. Not enough boys! Only difference is the pressure for a girl to be married at 21- 22 isn’t as great in those crowds, so it’s not that hard-hitting.
Hello, squeak! Good try. Fancy but empty words, zero substance! ABI GEREDT. AZ makes loads of sense whatever words you choose to describe the ideas he’s promoting with.
Squeak, let’s get to the point! What are you going to tell the teary eyed girls at the Tehillim group other than have Bitachon, and perhaps suggesting they join a nunnery? What are you prepared to do to prevent the numbers of such girls from steadily increasing?????????????????????
Why your vendetta? Do you know AZ personally?
Unless you come up with better options, I choose to ignore you from now on. It’s sooooo easy to sit with “Tzamgeleigte Hent” and criticize others.
Squeak, the benefits definitely do outweigh the losses. If we stay at status quo, a percentage of the presently returning 19 year olds will find themselves single at 22, 23, and 24, and they themselves!!!! will be competing with new 19 year olds, leaving hundreds of new victims yearly, happening over and over.
re: “Well, you see, that is exactly the problem. To have a solution, you must first understand the problem. That means not just admitting that there is a problem ………….
Respectfully, squeak, I don’t think our immediate goal is to theorize. We’ve been doing that and nothing else for many years. That’s why we’re in this mess. Our goal is action. Until anyone has a better or magic or perfect idea, let’s work with the ideas we have, whether perfect or not, and possibly improve on them as we go along. The benefits outweigh the losses.
Otherwise we’ll do nothing.
These girls are waiting, and there are more of them with each passing day.
To all those who are AGAINST change with the NASI age/dating issue:
Don’t tell us what you wouldn’t do, tell us what you would do. Or, would you just do nothing to help “older” girls get married? How would you address these older girls? What would you tell them? How would you handle it if you had daughters or sisters in this situation? Would you just say have Bitachon?
Nice, but not enough.
I’d love to know what R’ Pinchos Lipshutz of Yated feels about this issue. When he feels strongly for a cause, he gets involved B’Lev Shalem. He is the best.
“AZ: I am happy to hear you have had the opportunity in to come in contact with many Gedolim. Did you discuss your shiduch initiative with any of them? Did they agree? If yes, why haven’t we heard these Gedolim taking the initiative on these suggestions. The Lkwd RYs could easily encourage bachurim to go out younger if they chose, for example by waiving the “freezer rule” to one who goes out with an older girl”.
PM:
It takes time. They decide when they’re ready.
This is why I feel so strongly about this issue. Someone I know hosts a Tehillim group for mostly “older” girls, some younger, some women. After Tehillim they often get into Shidduchim discussions. They talk about how they don’t have dates, yet aren’t comfortable going out with either Chassidish boys or Modern Orthodox boys, often suggested to them. I am quite sure the situation is the same in Manytowns, USA. They are all excellent girls in every way. As someone involved in Shidduchim, I am very well aware of it from other sources as well.
My knowing that 19 year old girls are on their way home from Seminary, will be vying for the same boys as these girls, when there’s a huge scarcity already, disturbs me terribly.
Anyone here in the CR with any way to help girls like these, please don’t hesitate. Please come forward. This is one of the challenges of this Dor. Al Taamod Al Dam Rayacha.
Hashem please listen to their anguish.
AZ- Power to you! Please accept my honest apology. I had no idea how serious your involvement is with this dilemma. May you have much Hatzlacha in this and all your endeavors. Please keep us posted and let those who agree with you know how we can help further this noble cause.
re:”There is a trade-off between implementing a program and its societal cost. In this case, the cost is manipulating every person between the ages of 19 and 25. Heavy price”.
squeak, we’ve been paying a “heavy price” for doing Mitzvos, and following our leaders, which often creates discomfort, since “Naaseh V’ Nishma”. We chose to. That’s why we’re the chosen people.
Our opinions in the CR are offered here for fun. We don’t decide. When Rabbonim decide on the issue, then we’ll know how to proceed.
Perhaps all us coffee-roommates should approach our individual Rabbonim and see who is on which side of the issue and how to proceed or not to. I think we’d all be in for a major surprise. We’re all betting that our Rabbonim will be on our side of the issue, because it’s the opinion that makes sense to us. None of us know that for certain. Perhaps it’s time to find out!
I’d love to hear R’ Paysach Krohn’s take on this issue. Also, Rav Matisyahu Solomon’s, and all the Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva. Rav Shmuel and others….
Is anyone here ready to ask them and to report back?
SJSinNYC:
Re: Agunos
We ALL!!!!! agree that the plight Agunos suffer is the worst of the worst.
Unfortunately, to my knowledge, there is no Hebrew term for Single girls who have no one to marry. Feel free to make up a name if the comparison sickens you so, and let everyone know for the future. Until then, I guess we’ll have to use the name of a somewhat similarly disadvantaged group of women.
As far as the other two points you made, I’m sure there are fellow coffee-roommates who will agree with none, all or some of the points we’ve each made.
The goal is to ease heartache. Zehu!
SJSinNYC:
“AZOI.IS, you write “NONSENSE!!!!” a lot without backing it up at all…..Most of the people I know who started dating younger because they wanted to, not because their friends were”.
A lot of people want a lot of things…..do we all get what we want…do we learn to live without everything we want….that’s one of life’s main challenges.
“You ask what the grave harm in marrying a little later is? The harm is that she wants to get married and is being delayed for someone else. That isn’t fair to her. Its not up to you to decide when she should get married, but you are trying to control her life for someone elses”
It’s not up to me, RIGHT. But it is the responsibility of our Gedolim to help ease the pain of many.
“A lot of gedolim are behind the takanas against big weddings – but of course there are exceptions (large families and a whole bunch of other things). It will force the shidduch scene to become even more elitist because the “best” girls will still get dates young. And what Rav is going to come out and say that we should delay women getting married?”
Even if Takanas are effective to some degree, then goals were accomplished. Imagine how Simchas would look with no Takanas.
“I never said the pain for a woman who hasn’t found her match isn’t great. I know quite a few older, single women. But, that doesn’t mean you should call them an agunah. Or an almanah or any other term that has HALACHIC ramifications. Lehavdil, its like calling a Church/mosque a shul because its a “house of worship….”
Why the focus on what the Tzoroh is called? Give it whatever new name you like. The many forms of Cancer and Leukemia R”L have similarties and differences. They’re all serious!
To SJS:
“…. someone who decides not to go to seminary and wants to start dating right away (or even comes home after the year to date) will have no one to date. She will feel like used garbage”.
NONSENSE!!! if her friends aren’t dating the pressure will be off. The girls can focus on their schooling/jobs, etc.
“….If no one wants to start dating them until 20-21 instead of 18-19, they are delaying meeting their match for the sake of others”.
NONSENSE!!! What is the grave harm of marrying a little later? They might mature?
“…..you will be creating even more of an elitist shidduch scene. The “best” girls (yichus and money etc) will still get dates at 18 and 19. So now, getting married younger will be a real status thing”.
NONSENSE!!! If Gedolim are really behind it L’Tovas Ha’Klal, there will be a minimal amount of Mechutzafim that don’t care. Big deal!
“PLEASE DO NOT COMPARE A WOMAN WHO DOESNT HAVE A SPOUSE TO AN AGUNAH. That is terrible. There is a BIG difference between a woman who cannot get married because her husband has disappeared and one who has not found someone. An Agunah has distinct halachic characteristics that should not be used to compare this”.
NONSENSE!!! Call it AB or CD or EFG, Agunah, or “Singles unable to marry Singles ever”, the pain is very deep for both! Are we measuring pain with a gauge here?
tzippi, gimme a break, you know very well what AZ means!
200 or so single girls per year, unable to marry single guys EVER, because in the scary game of Shidduch Roulette with winners and losers (similar to musical chairs), there are only so many males available for girls in every age group, with the present age differential in place.
We, as Orthodox Yeshivaleit, can’t look for spouses among other religions/religious levels throughout the world. We are L I M I T E D.
Why hasn’t the fact that the older a girl is when marrying a Learning boy, the more INDEPENDENT solid footing the couple will be on financially (bec. of savings, education, job prospects, etc), entered into this discussion, increasing the length of time a boy can learn in peace?
But NO, now girls’ parents are practically shoving the girls down to the Chuppah, and promising their life savings away, in fear of having their daughters stay single.
re: “if boys would be set up with girls closer to their own age then in all likelihood they will end up marrying girls close to their own age. In the more yeshivish circles most boys marry one of the first couple of girls that they date. If they would be dating close in age they would more often be marrying close in age, and we wouldn’t have so many hundreds and hundreds of girls with no one to marry.”
AZ, those are words of wisdom! You hit the nail on the head! In the interest of the health and sanity of many, keep it up!
Why would anyone disagree with this advice? Otherwise some of the 19 year olds coming home from seminary now, will undoubtedly find themselves competing with 19 year olds when they’re 22 or 23, for 23 year old guys, and it will go on and on, leaving a trail of heartache!
re:I know girls who have everything – yichhus, looks, and money, not to mention a sterling personality – who are still on the market. I can only assume that you mean that maybe there are girls who are still around due to maybe not having enough money, etc., so any such chisaron makes them less desirable on the meat market. Still a very distasteful way of phrasing things. Don’t talk about bnos Yisrael this way.
tzippi:
I call a peach a peach, and a plum a plum.
Some of the finest girls are “less desirable” in the Shidduch Market by NO fault of theirs, strictly due to superficial things usually, like looks, money and the absence of Yichus, etc. In my eyes most of these girls are the BEST ON THE MARKET, but unfortunately are being rejected again and again, by the so called “best” boys out there, such as best learners, because by and large guys in their low twenties judge girls by superficial criteria.
If the guys would be encouraged to date closer in age, when their supply of similar age dates runs out, they’d be less inclined to date much younger girls, because of the tabu that would go with it. So with the present set-up the older “less desirabale” girls are passed over and they look among the pool of much younger girls.
Again, “less desirable” doesn’t equal less quality. QUITE THE CONTRARY! In my eyes, it
means the “desirable” boys are choosing girls by very superficial criteria!
No one that reds Shidduchim will even attempt to deny that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To ywnmember
RE:It’s interesting b/c in the chassidishe circles there are so many older boys and hardly any older girls…
Possibly because in Chassidish circles boys who go to work before marriage, are much less desirable (very few Chassidishe girls want them) than working boys are in the Litvish world. So in the Litvish world, the learning boys get grabbed up, but working boys have many options as well. This leaves Litvish girls who aren’t the most desirable, with very very limited choices, and therefore many are single for a long time and many stay single r”l.
Kapusta, perhaps they had daughters in Shidduchim, nebach.
SJSinNYC:
So lets encourage more ultra desirable girls to get married at 19 and have babies earlier, while we hold back 22+ girls from ever married and having any babies EVER.
Does that sound fair or sensible to you? Well that’s what’s happening now.