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I predict the school will stay open for a year or maybe two (on donations), then it will sell the extremely desirable property, which will yield a huge price, and move to Flatbush (or possibly Lakewood) and rebuild there, where it will again be a tremendous success, and take high paying students away from other schools there.
LAer, I’m not saying that Mrs. Beautiful’s MIL is right, but I will say that when you’re young you never dream that one day you’ll be a MIL with at least some expectations.
oomis1105, that was truly beautiful and inspiring. May Hashem shower you with many Brachos in that Zchus.
Joseph: “How much is the tuition (approx.) at BYoBP, and how much is it (on average) at other neighboring schools?”
Rabbi Shapiro is quoted in the Hamodia as saying:
“Most Bais Yaakov schools start at $5,000- $7,000. I’m not talking about Queens, which is $9,000 plus. Over here we’re averaging roughly $4,000 per child. And with so many unable to pay and kolel yungeleit, who we’ve been accomodating for all these years… It’s very hard.”
Seems like they have more than their fair share of non and low payers. Probably a disproportionate amount of parents with large families and little income.
Joseph, “Many students travel between Boro Park and Flatbush for school. That is hardly unique to BYoBP.”
Almost half is a lot more than many. It’s 900:2100.
I’ve spoken to many Flatbush parents who have moved there from BP, and they hesitate to send their daughters to BP schools, after the move, because of the problem of neighborhood friends on Shabbos. I still think that many come to BYOBP for the lower tuition.
HSS, is it possible that many of the 900 from Flatbush (where there are plenty of other schools) and those from other areas than BP, choose to travel to BYOBP because they get a good deal there?
It happens to be a very well run school, but there are other very well run schools in Brooklyn. Rabbi Shapiro claims his tuition is lower than most Bais Yaakovs. That has to be at least part of the attraction.
Seems that BYOBP is the place to go (according to the Hamodia) for those who have difficulty paying, from all the neighboring areas (900 out of the present 2100 are from Flatbush). They’re called on by Rabbonim to take in girls, and get Brachos from the Rabbonim, which Rabbi Shapiro says don’t get accepted for deposit at the banks.
If only there would be a way to increase earning potential of these parents.
Joseph: “AZ.I: Then the Bais Yaakov caters to more than just B.P. litvish families. It serves a wider geographic area than just B.P., and it serves the litvish, yeshivish, chasidish, etc. communities. “
Agreed. But the way I see it,the financially-able in those categories seem to have moved far away, and are sending their girls elsewhere.
Joseph:”If they are all truly moving out, or have already moved out, how is it that the school yet has such a large student body?”
Large families, also many coming from neighboring areas such as Kensington, Bensonhurst and Midwood, and some Modern Chassidish parents from BP who choose to send their daughters to BYOBP rather than a Chassidish school. Ask anyone who lives anywhere even close to the heart of BP, the ratio of Chassidish families to Litvish/Yeshivish/Modern families… it’s easily 10:1 and clearly diminishing by the day.
Is there anyone among us CR-mates who thinks, that despite the fact that “BYOBP-type” financially able people have mostly left BP, and more are moving as time goes on, and no new “BYOBP-type” financially able people are expected to move into the area, that the school can continue for much longer, barring some miracle, or new Donor?
If yes, how?
How much longer can BYOBP survive if most of its’ generous donors have moved to greener pastures, and BP’s current wealthy residents are by and large very Chassidish (and the bulk of those who remain, are those who have difficulty paying)?
I can’t see the non- Chassidish population coming back to BP any time soon. One look at those populating 13th, 16th and 18th Avenues, tells all.
GAW:”I liked the direction the thread was going in yesterday. Does anyone have any Psak or experience (from a scholarship committee) what should (or is asked to) be given up to pay additional tuition funds?”
The unemployed and parents in Chinuch, have nothing left to give up, other than food.
kapusta: as a girl who just graduated high school, and as someone who considers myself to know schools pretty well, I would say that even though the end result “that they want to marry learning boys” is the same there are many other differentiating factors. One for example, dress.”
Does Prospect allow/tolerate uncovered knees and elbows, tight/sheer clothing, or bare feet?
Please be more specific. I’ve seen many girls from both schools, and yes I agree there are differences, but BLOPPY girls who dress more modern, do so outside of school or after graduating. Some BYOBP girls also do so outside of school or after graduating.
kapusta: “BYOB calls themselves a Bais Yaakov because thats how they would like to be known. PPY calls themselves a Yeshiva because thats how they want to be known. Its not that one is bad and the other good. Its different, and its very unlikely for the parent body of BYOB to change to the parent body of PPY.”
At the present time both BYOBP and BLOPPY are p r e d o m i n a n t l y cranking out girls with an equally strong desire to marry learning boys, who choose not to go to college (Lakewood type). There might be slight differences, but definitely not huge difrences. My daughters’ Sem friends from BLOPPY say their BLOPPY classmates have very similar Frumkeit ideals, and therefore they are really pretty interchangeable.
1-“I thought homes were more expensive in Boro Park. Perhaps they would move to somewhere further out, thereby lowering their costs?”
The homes are expensive but I suspect that those who are unable to pay tuition are predominantly renters rather than owners, helped by section 8, etc.
“A similar concept exists im Meah Shearim, where the housing is expensive and the people are less wealthy, and they are moving out to the newer charaidi communities (or at least their children are)”.
Almost anything nearby, with Minyanim, schools and Mikvos in the vicinity, is similarly expensive.
“If tuition is so low (avg 2K) then I understand why the school is not making it. Thank you. The new questions are:
1: Why does this school attract low income parents (perhaps something to do with costs to move?), and how can it get current parents to pay more (especially being that they seeem to have “no” alternative). Once again, perhaps a minimum tuition is in order here?”
The school is located in an area where parents were by and large not encouraged to seek higher education.
“2: Being that Flatbush is so close to Boro Park (10 min according to Google from 13th & New Utrecht to BLOPPY? (thats what came up when I searched for Prospect Park (what sort of name is that?)) why can’t these parents send to Flatbush schools?”
You think BLOPPY and other nearby schools can afford to admit hundreds of low/non paying parents?
GAW:
If the school moved, it would lave the remaining non-Chassidic students with no school, and most can’t afford to move. If they could have afforded moving they would have moved already.
Teachers were always paid peanuts (if they’re lucky they got min wage). Many of my daughters’ friends taught there. Until the Shidduch crisis and more recently the economic situation, forced girls to get higher degrees (Accounting, Speech, OT, PT….), it was considered statusy to be teaching there. It was rumored at one time, that some wealthy parents paid the school, to hire their daughters.
Tuitions are way lower than the norm for schools across America, because family size is larger in Brooklyn… I think the average is quite a bit under 400 a month, with many unable to pay that at the present time.
GAW: “Now I really don’t understand. If the schools are beyond capacity, why are they not making it? “
1. They built a new building based on huge pledges of a few remaining (see below) very wealthy people in the community, who were unable to come through with the money. Frankly I’m not sure why they don’t sell this new building, which is prime prime property.
2. Being that Boro Park became overwhelmingly Chassidish, most of the wealthy people living in BP are Chassidish, and don’t need BYOBP. Many of the wealthy previous benefactors, who picked up and moved out of the area when it bcame very Chassidish, are now financing other schools in their new areas.
3. I’m sure they have a small percentage of people who have never paid tuition, and the wealthy people picked up the tab by paying more tuition, and these people are no longer able to.
4. I think there are probably too many very high earning administration people.
I doubt the control of use of paper would ease the financial situation in any appreciable way. I think it’s more likely the many Administration people making close to 100,000 a year that might be somewhat problematic, and something tells me there might be some who the school might survive without and replace with volunteers. I doubt they can cut teachers, because everyone knows the Bklyn classrooms are past capacity.
GAW: “most of the parent body is not paying much, if any, tuition, even before this “crisis”
That can’t be accurate. I know many people of my generation who went there and my female children went there and Rabbi Shapiro, the current administrator, is a Mentsch, but he doesnt let anyone get away with anything. You have to pay up, or else…It’s not a freebie school. I wonder where others got the wrong picture.
My feeling is that there are lots of people who regularly do work, and are currently out of work, who honestly can’t pay.
GAW: ” If those who have extra funds want to support their own children, let them do so, but I (and many others) don’t feel (and am not halachicly) Mechuyav to help them when they are not willing to help themselves. “
The bulk of the parent population of BYOBP, are hardworking individuals, not those whose “plan” is to rely on family members or govt. programs for support. Many people are jobless today, no matter how educated, qualified, or how hard they look for a job.
GAW: re “There is no reason why someone who planned and has money is Chayiv to give to those who did not plan and are still expecting others to bail them out.”
1.
Those who have discretionary funds in today’s economy, have it 50% due to hard work, and 50% due to Mazel (Yerusha, successful business ventures..). Many of those who don’t have discretionary funds “planned” just as carefully.
2.
The needy institutions are the very same institutions that those who have discretionary funds, need for their own children an grandchildren. Will the schools open and only allow those who can afford to pay full tuition?
I question how the Brooklyn community filled to the brim with owners of custom estate-like homes, summer homes, winter homes, elegant Simchas arranged by party planners, late model luxury cars, designer dressed population who take luxury vacations, etc. can’t in a unified manner support a Mosad like this Bais Yaakov, one of the best in the world?
Yes, there are many who have been effected by the financial crisis, but many have not, and are still living the “good life”, chock full of assorted luxuries.
postsemgirl, if your mother is smart, she’s providing pictures behind your back.
Mayan_Dvash, the Shachan will red you a nameless drawing, in return.
It’s like all the other things in life, we hate it, but we do it. Until Rabbonim pasken that Shadchanim are not allowed to ask for pictures, those who hold back on offering pictures will lose.
YW Moderator-42, brillantly said, and it H- A- S to be said! We have to show our children our disgust of crime, otherwise they will think it’s acceptable and excused, and the attitude will only harm them, and all Jews worldwide.
Fat guys looking for thin girls.
Any one dish chicken/broccoli ideas? or chicken/spinach?
What would make a person break an engagement, other than (these are reasons I’ve heard of in the past)
1- finding out about physical or emotional problems, or
2- noticing a change in behavior, post-engagement, of the boy, girl or parent, or
3- having been coerced in the first place, and wanting out?
oomis1105, re:”Much of this is discovered during the engagement period, which really IMO ought to be the COURTSHIP period, with more time alotted to it before getting engaged.”
Lav Davka, I heard of a case of a couple dating (and there are probably many others) where the boy just couldn’t commit, and went out on close to twenty lengthy dates, after which he finally did propose, only to break the engagement a week before the wedding.
Are you suggesting some singles should date for many months, if they’re unsure?
I say, if either side has to be coaxed more than the norm, that Shidduch shouldn’t hsppen ever, not months later either.
Does anyone know how the Roshei Yeshiva feel about the change in atmosphere? Have they spoken about it publicly?
This topic brings to mind a personal experience.
Boy gave a yes and was red to girl. Girl’s parents called references and one refrence happened to be a distant relative, so the girl’s mother trusted the person. Mother asked this referenc if boy or family has any physical or emotional issues. This refrence who was a istant relative of girl, but close friend of boy, said No. Other references were called and boy and girl began to date. In the midle of dating, someone told girls parents that boy has a serious health issue. Mother went back to original reference, who she trusted and he said that the boy got a Psak from a Rov that as long as he tells girl of the sitch by the fifth date, he doesnt have to tell in the beginning and references have to cover for him. I’d like to know how Rov would feel if girl woul be his daughter.
Really sad for the girl, but sadder for the boy who is prob. always on emotional roller coaster, when each girl finds out on the 5th date (or earlier) and drops the Shidduch.
A600KiloBear,
1-How do you feel about Touro College, teaching the same subject matter as all other colleges, and similarly the Raizel Reit program? Few college students take philosophy courses in even secular colleges. They are not a neccesity for degrees.
2-How do you explain the major problem of OTD kids from Chassidic homes, who had no connection to Kfirus related subjects?
Do you really think the color of cantoresq’s slacks will more negatively effect his children than your straight-jacket cookie-cutter mindset will ch”v effect your kids?
Hellooooo A600KiloBear- “OTD being caused by dress rules”- ??!!??!!??
No one is saying that any way of dress CAUSES OTD- it just does NOT prevent it, as BP Tatty implied above.
Also, jeans and a polo shirt are a long jump skip and hop away from no Black Hat and a lighter shade or fabric of slacks.
If you feel it’s college thats causing people to go off the Derech, how do you explain those that go off the Derech from the Chassidish community, many who barely speak English, and have no connection to anything secular.
Perhaps we ought to focus an equal amount of time and thought to the crises of the day, as we are to cantoresq’s choice of slacks.
BP Totty, your quote “Since there is such a risk of assimilation, I and my Mrs. choose to err on the side of caution” confuses me.
Don’t get me started about assimilation. Caution about what? What are you preventing? What are you guaranteeing? You feel a certain mode of dress is the prescription for success in any area?
I realized that dress (men’s, NOT women’s), has little bearing on one’s serious life choices. If anyone can convince me that there are a smaller percentage per person, of cases of infidelity, divorce, depression, OTD kids…among other problems, in groups wearing Black Hats and dark slacks at all times, you might have me newly convinced of their importance.
Talking about assimilation, just today I had a conversation with someone (a Black Hatter) in Chinuch who said that the problem with the Black Hat approach to Chinuch, is their utilizing Yiras Hashem (with threats, trauma, cookie cutter mentality and labeling) more than Ahavas Hashem. They thought that it might be the reason we have so many OTD’s. I think the Black Hatters outline for success in Chinuch is that inculcating Yiras Hashem will lead to Ahavas Hashem, while those to the left of us believe the reverse- Ahavas Hashem will lead to Yiras Hashem.
Something to think about. Oh btw, I’m a Black Hat type.
Why anyone would be cocerned w the restarants that opened is totally beyond me. You can soooo easily choose not to go, and so can your friends and relatives. If you don’t go, how do other people going negatively effect you more than people that go to retaurants in Anytown, USA? How does it ruin your town?
thewriter, IMHO you’re right!
Its the Tznius and NOT the sit-down restaurants thats the source of discomfort. The problem of lack of Tznius becomes more obvious and problematic in places where both men and women closely observe one another, i.e. sit down restaurants. Thats why it’s not problematic in Monroe and Willy, because Tznius levels are higher there.
veyatziv, or anyone else, can you please explain how Ruchnius is negatively affected by eat-in restaurants in Lakewood and NOT in Monroe and Willy?
Pashuteh Yid and tzippi:
Great posts. Thanks.
Don’t Willy and Monroe have sit-down restaurants? I don’t get the connection to them and rise and fall of Ruchnius.
Perhaps those unhappy with the newcomers to Lakewood ought to move to Monroe or Williansburg and get a taste of their own medicine. There they would be considered “Goyish” and not seeing the light…..
PM, I think the 2,000 incentive ended. I heard that they are short on funding. Now what’s your excuse/reasoning?
Hafoch Ba V’ Hafoch Ba D’Kula Ba.
Why dont we ask our Gedolim if it will or wont help, and what their recommendations are.
There has to be something to do.
pt, criticizing and doing nothing is always easiest. Those that REALLY care would at least TRY to come up with better, more workable, options and not just kick and scream that others’ ideas are worthless.
How sad. Girls and their parents are crying bitter Tisha- B’Av like tears throughout the Yeshivishe world, and when people come up with an honorable way to help to lessen the Tza’ar, the naysayers, rather than come up with original helpful ideas, merely try to destroy the ideas of others with statistical theories.
Attention y’all! I’m tired of listening to loads of mothers complain that their daughters havent had a date in months. I’m tired of hearing of the same from other Shadchanim!!!
So, IF there are an equal amount of boys, and they’re in hiding, (and I doubt that strongly), that’s the equivalent of non-existent. They’re of no use to girls who want to get married.
PT:
“Just because more girl than guys go to shaddchanim (or that girls go to more shaddchanim than do guys) does not mean there are more girl than guys. “
PT, whatever planet you happen to reside in, if there are any “Yeshivish” families, please ask 100 mothers, how marrying off sons and marrying off daughters is TOTALLY different.
Please tell me what planet you’re on, I want to move there (if for no other reason, to speak to Shadchanim and mothers on your planet).
PT, thank you for injecting humor into this discussion. It’s much appreciated.
proud tatty, “Do you have ANY proof there are 2,000 more girls than guys?”
Find me ONE of hundreds of Shadchanim, that will tell you that there are ten guys for every girl, rather than ten girls for every guy!!!!! JUST ONE, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! ONLY THOSE LIVING IN A BUBBLE DON’T KNOW THERE’S THOUSANDS MORE OLDER GIRLS THAN BOYS.
I myself have had that conversation with a hundred Shadchanim recently.
tzippi,
re: So Azoiis, the girls waiting till they get older, established in their jobs with some savings and earning potential still won’t make them attractive enough?….What kind of xxxx (I can’t think of a good word, but insert extremely negative word of your choice) are we raising?!?!? I will never be desperate enough to be happy to have one of these awful bad actors as a son in law. “
I have a simple answer. Azoi is. (I barely speak Yiddish, but the expression fits very well here). I feel the same way! Let’s face it, either we teach our kids to be self supporting, or we teach them that it’s OK to be dependent. One or the other. Nowadays we’re teaching the latter, unfortunately.