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This whole discussion will be moot in a number of months. Either word will get out that they’re making more Shidduchim (as opposed to publicizing that they’ve made Shidduchim that the public finds were really made by others, which some Shidduch websites have done) than Shadchanim not asking for any pre-payment, or not.
This Hire a Shadchan operation will put off the general public from joining as non-paying members. No one wants to be second fiddle.
If they would have started as a totally free operation and had real success, they could have graduated to a paying operation, without a problem.
BTW, SYAS charges about $20.00 a month and is also done b’Tznius with Shadchanim matching profiles. Singles have an option of being visible to their Shadchan only.
BB1, I think you can’t beat success as an advertisement, and if they’ll come through with many engagements, that’s the time to offer “special treatment packages”, and not before, when no success has been proven.
Otherwise, IMHO, it’s a way to risk/spend money for the rich and/or desperate, and their offer to look for Shidduchim for free, for others, where they admit to spending less time, becomes less interesting and attractive.
cholentkugelkishke,
From the site:”Looking to do some more direct Hishtadlus? Hire a professional Shadchan (Fee starts at $360.00 a month) to work consistently on your behalf. Our experienced Shadchanim are warm, caring, sincere, Yirei Shamayim, and absolutely devoted to making Shidduchim! Our Hire a Shadchan service will connect you with a Shadchan who specializes in your particular circle: Heimishe, Yeshivish, Chassidish, Litvish, Sefardi, etc. Once hired, your personal Shadchan will do his utmost to find and Redt the most appropriate Shidduchim for you”.
Many have been doing that for free, for centuries, only to get a fee if a Shidduch materializes.
ronrsr, How right you are!!!”many shadchans do say that things have changed a lot over the last 20 years, and their job has been made harder and less productive due to the preponderance of lists such as you describe….”.
I see the difference in dating when my older children married and those dating now and my friends and relative’s children dating now. I also brought about way over a hundred dates on a Shidduch website and none became Shidduchim. Other Shadchanim have made Shidduchim, only to have them get broken. It’s a Shadchan’s nightmare.
I watched Rabbi Tendler’s two part Shiur on Torahanytime where he compares the Kallah who tries on her wedding gown many times before the wedding and the more she tries it on, the less special it feels. He compares this to those who date many people and the effect it has.
This makes Shadchanim less willing to try…. unfortunately, for good reason.
I find it a little puzzling to think that there are people out there who would be willing to pay a relatively unknown organization $360.00 a month to attempt to find a Shidduch for them (Shiduchworld offers extra help at that price). Can anyone clarify please? Who are the Shadchanim who work for them? If it’s private, why?
youdontknowme, let me revise that to not anywhere near as crazy.
youdontknowme, I can’t repeat the insane reasons I’ve heard from guys. Never from girls.
youdontknowme, re:”I am basing part of my opinion on my own experiences and those of my friends but all you have to do is talk to some shadchanim and I think you’ll find most would agree with me”
I’m a Shadchan on two Shidduch websites and have been doing it for years before the Internet. I’d be more than happy to work tirelessly for guys who are flexible, and at their “ready” point (I strongly believe that most of the time when a guy feels he wants to get married NOW, he can find a compatible girl with some effort on part of serious Shadchanim), and are getting rejected more than rejecting. I know loads of really good girls who are READY and a minimal amount of guys.
I overheard a conversation lately between girls in their mid twenties. They were telling each other how all their recent dates ended with the guy rejecting them. They were saying it’s as if the guys go on dates to find something wrong with the girls. It’s easier for the guys to get another girl to go out with than for the girls to find the next boy to go out with. Being involved in redding Shidduchim myself, most often it’s been the guys rejecting. I’ve heard lots of girls saying it and that has been my experience as well. I’ve observed that the girls are much more willing to give things a chance and consider Shidduchim even if its not their fantasy Shidduch.
What is there to do?
motherof5, obviously no one can do a study on the need for meds in Lakewood versus other Yeshivos, because no one will tell the truth anywhere (except for the doctors possibly), but the person who gave me this information works in a Doctors office in Lakewood and cant believe how many guys come in for a prescription for something along those lines.
I’ve heard that there are many guys in Lakewood who dont have satisfaction from their daily routine and want to leave and go to school or work, but their parents tell them to just wait a little longer until they find a Shidduch. I’ve heard that some of these guys get seriously depressed while they wait to find Ms. Right and go on meds.
If the RY-Talmid ratio was lower or if these Lakewood guys would get close to an adult role model, the RY’s or role models would probably pick up on their unhappiness and support the guy’s wanting to leave and guide them accordingly.
MM, who says it’s R’ Shneur who makes the final decision on how many people get accepted every year and what the max number of students allowed should be? I think BMG has become one big mega-operation with lots of back-room politics and decision-makers.
smr, what point am I missing?
If any percentage, however small, of talmidim in BMG or the Mir would benefit from a smaller Yeshiva, with more Kesher between the RY and Talmid, that’s too huge a number to ignore. No one would lose, they would all benefit. There are few if any benefits to huge Yeshivos, from age 3 to adulthood. Would R’ Aron be happy with Lakewood of today? The increase in numbers was a gradual change.
IMHO, where the Talmidim are less involved with their RYs, they become more involved with their peers, and keeping up with the Grosses brcomes more of a problem. It’s more of a buddy keeping up with buddy lifestyle, rather than focusing on the RY’s lifestle.
Jothar, brilliant post! Thanks.
jphone, Bachurim who enter a Yeshivah and dont necessarily look for a relationship with the Rosh (or Roshei, depending on the yeshiva) OUGHT to be in a Yeshivah where they DO look for a relationship with the Rosh/ei Yeshivah!!!
It’s crucial in the impressionable high teens and low twenties to bond with a Rosh Yeshivah. Those years spent without it, are a sad lost opportunity, never compensated for.
To those who will respond that boys with strong charachter are already stable and dont need such a relationship, my reply would be Al Taamin B’Atzmecha….
Who else in Brooklyn makes a good mixed grain or whole spelt Challah?
Jax, I’m proud to say, I spend way more time on Shidduchim, B”H.
Jax: “artchill: how would one celebrate this day in history?!”
How about commiting to spending an equal amount of time in the CR and redding Shidduchim?
artchill, ” It’s time to MOVE ON”?
I’m not sure whether you’re male or female, but inquiry to the other side of the Maechitzas will result in awareness of way too many older single girls, with numbers growing steadily. If you were their mother/father would you want the Klal to MOVE ON?
Jax, “i’m with Joseph on what he said, it’s not all the age gap…! “:
Say someone suffers from various maladies, one with a cure, others unknown. Do we not treat the one with a cure, in a manner that prominent doctors are in agreement on?
AZ, it’s people like you who give much needed Chizuk to the thousands of 23+ year old single girls, who many Shadchanim have already put on the back shelf for storage. You give the Shadchanim the extra push to try again. Often just one/few more try/tries does it. Their future Doros thank you.
squeak, I’m no one’s sidekick, I have no idea who AZ is, other than a sincere Eved Hashem, promoting a desire of many Roshei Yeshiva.
My time spent at math/statistics takes a back seat to helping another Jew(ess) whenever possible.
tzippi, in response to your apples and oranges, the status quo isnt working for MORE than just a small minority. How many people do you know with single daughters over age 25? There’s at least one in every family, and on every block. I believe Hashem wants us to put in major effort on their behalf.
To cherrybim:
re: “AZ – You are not going to change human psychology and physiology….”.
Didn’t we fully adopt the rules and regulations of the Cheirem D’Rabeinu Gershon, a way more drastic move?
AZ, keep at it. May Hashem give you Koach. Every time you raise awareness of the dilemma suffered by Bnos Yisroel, leading to a Yeshua for them, as in Shadchanim thinking first for suitable girls for a guy, who are slightly older, and not letting the topic die down, you certainly get special additional S’char.
Those who choose to mock you, only serve to further your cause.
telegrok:
“I am admittedly late to the conversation: but how did people meet and marry before the “crisis”? What has changed?”
With exceptions, I think it’s because more people adopted the “I’m better than you attitude”….so I deserve…. insisting on rich… well known….size 2’s…specific schools…. specific Shuls… the list goes on. This causes the less desirable girls to be passed over and the guys repeatedly look among the newer crop until they get all their needs met. Many 26, 27, 28 year old guys get dates with 19 and 20 year old girls.
NY Mom, I’m in agreement with what you say, and find that most of my suggestions that didn’t get off the ground were due to girls’ parents not being well known enough- they heard nothing negative other than “no one knows them”.
I think every Yeshivah and Bais Yaakov ought to have one person on staff for working on Shidduchim for their graduates.
In the sixties and seventies Tora Vdaas had a Rabbi Rivlin A”H ( he later worked for R’ Moshe), who I am told worked on Shidduchim full time (my parents spoke of him all the time) . He was amazing. Girls’ parents went to him, and he worked tirelessly and didn’t stop until each girl became a Kallah, even though he was a Tora Vdaas employee. He was always available. We need devoted people like him on the scene. A couple of Rabbi Rivlins and we’d make a dent in the Shidduch crisis.
bein_hasdorim:
Shaindel has a point, bec. outside of the handful of big name, highly successful, Shadchanim, and there certainly arent enough of them, others toil endless hours and get absolutely nothing for it, even when a relationship goes on for many dates, and then realize they can no longer invest the required time and effort.
AZ: I am confident that after 120+, there is a very desirable place reserved especially for you in Gan Eden. You don’t give up, nor should you. I am sure Hashem is smiling down at you. May you and yours be blessed with Gezunt and Nachas Ruach in order to continue.
As someone who involves themselves in Shidduchim, my heart goes out for those older, among Achoseinu Bnos Yisroel, who with each passing year have less of a chance of finding a husband, while by and large the well known Shadchanim focus on the new crop.
May Hashem help us all help those in desperate need of Shidduchim.
There are many ways to get an Undergrad degree without going to a mixed college. Desirable Graduate programs are pretty much all co-ed though.
Having in mind that degrees take 2-5 years to get, depending on credits received from previous sources, this means that within 2-5 years of going to a co-ed school, the boy/girl will be working in a mixed environment anyhow, so what are we accomplishing by holding them back from attending mixed colleges, when neccessary for their desired degrees.
Girls who dont go to college altogether, end up working in a co-ed environment sooner (offices) because they don’t all want to be teachers.
Some say that a few years later when the Singles have married and are more mature, there is substantially less danger of going to a co-ed College.
Joseph: “The CareerBuilder article I posted on the previous page of this thread, is a very recent article. And as you can read, it makes clear that whilst once upon a time a college degree was thought necessary for a financially rewarding career, that is no longer the case these days. “
I know too many people who searched for a job for years until they realized that the only way to have a chance at a decent Parnasa is a degree. Most of the jobs posted above don’t have any/many openings for obviously frum people.
Joseph: It’s common sense. Suppose I have a 27 year old sister, if her options are only to date those 3 years or more older, rather than her age and up, because that’s what Shadchanim are suggesting, it’s going to very much diminish her chances of ever getting married. As you get older, the available pool becomes smaller and smaller. There are many more available 27 year old guys than 30 year old guys. Do we want to increase or decrease her chances of getting married? We don’t want to force a 27 year old guy to marry her, we just want Shadchanim to think first of the older available girls who are appropriate.
artchill: “With the soaring divorce rate caused by inappropriate shidduchim, is the financial incentive awarded by NASI greater than the cost of a divorce and all costs involved??? “
Can you prove statistically that those men who married women close in age, had a higher divorce rate than those who married women 3 or more years younger? I don’t think so. Probably the contrary.
Jothar: “We must go back to kollel as it was implemented by the gedolim of Europe (Rav Yisroel Salanter, Rave Itzele Peterburger, etc). Kollel is 4 or 5 years, after which one is expected to work in klei kodesh or another line of parnassah.”
Not easily accomplished if there is a huge demand and lesser supply of Chinuch/Klei Kodesh jobs, and other lines of Parnasah are out of reach bec of lack of secular eucation.
Not so merry-go-round.
rwndk1:
“I don’t think he’s going to remember his 10% discount after 10 miserable years. I can’t believe anyone would choose a wife because someone is paying him to do so, if so I would check what is wrong with her. “
I believe the one who benefited monetarily from the Nasi project was the Shadchan, not the single. It’s an incentive to the Shadchan to suggest Shidduchim to the boy’s family that are closer in age. No one is forcing a single to marry someone incompatible.
In the pool of available girls, there are girls with specs and personalities similar to those of the boy (tall, short, skinny, fat, loud, quiet, trendy, not trendy, heimish, not heimish, educated, non-educated…), among both younger and older girls. Shadchanim are encouraged to try the older girls first. That’s all.
Jothar:
“Forcing people to pay exhorbitant tuitions and go into debt to sponsor kollel kids is not exactly derech Yisroel Saba. “
Most Kollel fathers, are unable to find decent employment EVER, and especially in these harsh economic times, even if they want to!!!, because of them being unprepared for work in a secular environment, not because of unwillingness to work. It’s Chinuch causing Chinuch’s problems. A not so merry-go-round.
Jothar: “With that bounty destroyed by the latest recession, reprioritization is in order.”
What is the position of Gedolim and Roshei Yeshiva on exactly this question. If someone were to ask them how much of every Tzedaka dollar should be spent on Kollels and how much towards financially weak Chinuch institutions, I wonder what they’d answer.
Unfortunately doubled-up classes causing increased Haskhafic and other issues, it might leave less students interested in further Kollel learning.
Pashuteh Yid:
“What yeshivos need to teach their children is that making a parnasa is the most ruchnius thing there is”.
Agreed!!!!! Kollel is wonderful, except for the fact that way too high a percentage of those in Kollel, are learning less per week, quantitatively and qualitatively, than many Ehrlich Kovea Itim people. And MANY of those who need help with tuition are of the first category.
artchill: “Agudah is best served to drop the voucher campaign, and sell the importance of supporting Chinuch (over kiruv, and kollel).”
chatrliehall: “For example, which is more important: Keeping adult men learning for years in kollel, or keeping schools open?”
Brilliant points! There’s only so much we can stretch the DOUGH!
See my earlier posts, because even if we solve the tuition dilemma (unlikely), BYOBP-type parents are financially underwater, because of the fact that their expenses (real neccessities) cost more than their income. Inability to pay tuition is but a small symptom of the massive problem.
GAW: “Its called a more “modern” yeshiva by definition if it calls to think about parnassah. Seeing how many people want to move to be more Machmir, the schools will not move in that direction. “
At least 50% of Brooklyn people that I know (BYOBP type) would love for the schools to start leaning towards Parnasa readiness. Those are the ones who are open about it, I strongly suspect many others think it.
Perhaps it’s time to modify the slant in our schools and tell our kids (they need to hear a uniform message from both parents and school personnel) that Parnasa plans are vitally important, early on, when one can realistically implement them. Otherwise we all suffer in many ways… Shalom Bayis.. increase of white collar crime…govt ripoffs…all leading to Chilul Hashem…
Talking about tax credits/goverment aid in this economy is futile, and should not be our “plan”.
GAW: ” I would not send the BYOBP children to public school (NJ is different than “in town Boro Park”, as Public School is “scary” in Brooklyn and it would never happen “
BP parents are just as likely to homeschool as to send their kids to public school. THAT will never happen as well, if for no other reason than BP’ers are proud and would never want their neighbors to know they can’t afford tuition. In the eleventh hour, remaining Gvirim will come to the rescue, if they haven’t already. I don’t believe for one minute that the Admin ever believed that the school wouldn’t repoen for the school year.
In any case, the same Chinuch institutions that taught not to worry and plan for Parnassah, and to have Bitachon, will NOT let their students (the current parents) down.
HSS: “then the hanhala should find a way to pay for these kids’ education and not force it on the rest of the klal.”
They used to do exactly that, by Gvirim supporting schools with huge donations. Seems there are not enough Gvirim able/willing to carry the load now. That is the problem.
HSS:” I should not have to pay for someone else’s selfishness.”
If you choose to live in a frum community, with many Yeshiva students who were coaxed by their Yeshivas to remain in Yeshiva longer, and not worry about Parnasa, are you then going to tell these same Yeshivos’ Hanhala to not allow entrance to their children at very reduced rates, because their parents were “role model students” and took the Yeshivos’ advice?
The parents weren’t selfish at all. They were being “Mekabel”s.
The Yeshivos’ Hanhala would then be talking out of two sides of their mouths.
GAW:”We have a Torah. The Gemorah, Rambam, Tur & Shulchan Aruch all say to EMBARASS the man who does not take care of his children.”
I want you to find ONE Gadol who will encourage the embarassment of a parent who can’t pay tuition. Never ever.
As far as selling Leichter, the heaviest and most exquisite of Leichters, would rarely yield $1000. on the used silver market, which is less than a fraction of a year of tuition for ONE of their children. And, rarely do the needy parents have the most exquisite of Leichters or jewelry for that matter.
In my opinion, not only are the children innocent, and therefore undeserving of embarassment, the parents are as well, by being led into dependence on others.
SJSinNYC:
“Can Hashem provide money at any point? Sure, but relying on that is neglecting your hishtadlut”.
Are we not skirting the issue?
Hishtadlut meaning ??? getting a job that you should have prepared for in your early twenties, but did not, because of the current inculcation of most of our Yeshivos (where boys are encouraged not to), and later in married life, when children arrive, it’s no longer doable, in most cases.
From another website: