Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Tums/DY- incorrect.
if the girls start at 19 and the guys at 23 why are the girls still around at 23 to have that probelm of
“guys marry younger girls than themselves thus “leaving over” the older girls (who are there own age”
shouldn’t the girls have been married in the first two three years of dating just like the boys are and thus we shouldn’t have so many girls who reach the same age as the boys….????
The answer is that from day one of their dating carrert the girls far out number the boys (because the girls start younger) and thus inevitable there will always be girls who will NOT get married in the first 3/4 years and thus end up “the same age as the boys”.
oomis:
If there are twenty girls and ten boys in a group, and all the boys get married to the girls in that group, there are still ten girls who did not get married.-
correct and this is the shidduh crisis exactly. Now to solve it we need to understand and address why there are 20 girls and only 10 guys in the group.
If there are ten boys in that group and five of them are wasting time and taking their sweet time about “getting back to the girl,” so only five of them get married, there are 15 girls in that group not getting married. –
and there should be 5 guys still single? yet we don’t see that in the proportions you are suggesting (505 of the boys).
If there are 20 girls and twenty boys in a group who cannot make up their minds because they are unrealistically holding out for a “better shidduch,” which may or may not come their way, most likely none of them is getting married. Now we have a really big shidduch crisis. –
except that you picture is not accurate becasue the vast vast majority of boys DO get married and they actually get married quickly…
Ha ha ha/Bina.
hmm. I guess Hatzhala, Tomchei Shabbos, RCCS, Bonei Olam, Yad Eliezer, Hasc, etc. etc never figured out your suggestion.
“I think we forgot……. do your hishtadlus and daven daven daven. Davening is way more important then anything”
let’s close them and every other worthy organization down and just daven….
we would save a lot of money that way wouldn’t we…..
Jam:
correct: marriage is 1:1 yet older unmarried singles is way more girls than boys
care to explain…..
THAT’S THE CRISIS
TBT: Interesting thought. Sad that it’s not the accurate explanation. Please do the research and educate us as to girls vs. boys in the chassidishe community and where those girls go to school and who they marry. If they go to the litvishe yeshivos they should be suffeting the same fate as the litvishe girls…. and yet they don’t, very very interesting….
here’s a hint… by chassidim, boys and girls begin dating at around the same age…. 18/19.
Tadik:
isn’t that amzaing.. that by chassidim no crisis (actually there is a slight boy crisis)
hmmm i wonder why…
PRO: you are disagreeing with Halacha pesuka.The earlier posters got it correct. There is a absolute bonfide Halachic obligation to give shadchanus in line with the going rate. Unless you live in a community where what you write,
“if you can afford $250 or even $36, all acceptable”
is the accepted standard practice, then no, it is NOT acceptable.
For the recored i am NOT a shadchan.
Canine: since i assume you are being facetious i won’t bother responding. if you are serious let me know.
Bina: If only you where correct. Unfourtanely the data shows that there are far far more older single girls than older single boys. and girls dating earlier and earlier excarebates teh problem. B”H progress has been made and is continuing to be made, but to write “i believe” is simply incorrecrt. Whehter or not there is a shiddcuh crisis is of faith, it’s a simple factual question based on data.
Due to the risk or incurring the ire of veteran CR members, I won’t the to discuss/debate the existence of the crisis as it has been hashed and rehashed ad nasuem. However, I am happy to discuss the various solutions being implemented succesfully albeit slowly, across north america.
Canine:
1. Brilliant. but they don’t start on average at 17 they start at aprox 19.
2. If it took 8 years/10 years of dating to get married that’s not a crisis either (at least i wouldn’t spend time on it) IF all girls and boys (or almost all of them) would get married in the end. The point I made is that after 5 years almost all the corrseponding boys are married and thus for many many girls there is mathematically no chance. Thus they won’t be single only at 25 but at 35 as well and at 45 and that’s a self imposed tragedy of epic proportions.
Definiton of shidduch crisis:
Far far larger numbers of older girls who are still single as compared to boys.
Loose definition of “older” singles- dating 5+ years.
many girls 21 and married that’s NOT a crisis.
many girls 28 and not married, we have a problem.
This is in all likelihood a false thread.
1. Boys who are real masmidim to the extent that they put off shidduchim, would most likely not refer to themselves and “having been learning with great hasmada’
2. A boy who has put off dating do to his sincere dedication to learning, would most likely NOT be posting on YWCR in middle of second seder!
MD:
i guess you don’t know to many guys in lakewood…
As of last year, more than 28% of the boys in BMG had gotten engaged or married before the age of 23. That is clearly a significant number. (of course as that number gets higher the crisis will be further alleviated.)
in the last few years many many boys who began dating close to 23 (or older) are dating and marrying girls their own age.
For the sake of the OP
The oilam has left out 50% of the disucssion i.e. Asi Rabbim umivatli mehcitzta.
In discussion on the topic of the halachic feasability of city wide eruvin the two central questions are
1. Definition of R”H
2. Asi Rabim on a tzuras Hapesach
R’ Avi Shulman 845 352 1175
Nope… it just hasn’t gone around the country – YET.
to be clear we don’t need new shadchanim… we need more people redding shidduchim to slightly older girls…. be them old shadchanim or new shadchanim…..
to add more shadchanim to do what was being done up until now would be akin to straigtening deck chairs on the titanic…
I’ve heard recently (just anecdoatally) that one very popular seminary class who came home this past june has only a handfull of engagments so far……
Gotta tell you i’m pretty happy about that… it means the guys are getting engaged to the girls who are back a bit longer….
that’s good news!!
OC: Then you are just not in the loop………
A23: each community school etc runs it their own way. The concept is people who set up slightly older girls get compensated for accomplishing just that.
some do #1- #4 some start at 21+ some have a diiferent range for 21-24 and 25+.
it requires someone in each locale to be on top and run the program.
if it is of sincere interest to you contact the NASI project and they will put you in touch with the communities that are doing it. ditto if you would like to bring it to your community.
the one thing they all share in common……
IT IS WORKING!!
1. It’s not my work, i just report.
2. Communities fund themselves.
3. For classes, there is $$ avail to help a few of them get started providing they do all the work and run the program. It’s understandable that 24 year old girls aren’t going to raise money.
4. Once there are sufficient results, it will spread across the country like wildfire (it’s almost there already) and it will be a cinch to raise the money on the local level.
RESULTS TALK
consider this
First community- nine months
75 dates
23 dating seriously (past #4)
there are numerous engagements (closing in on 10) but i don’t count those as that’s not direct result of shadchanims efforts
cost of program……
12 thousand dollars…. over nine months
next community
2.5 weeks
22 dates
2 dating seriously (already)
2 more communities looking to adapt the program in the near future.
the community that started this program less than 3 weeks ago has seen 21 new dates and 2 girls are already at date number 4…
TBT: the answer for large communites……
CLASSMATES!!!!!
graduates of the year 2004 (for example) get together…. look out for your classmates…. if anyone (alumni or teacher) get a classmate to date #…..
it is pashut and effective…
one school already started and has seen a lot of new attention in the first three weeks…
TBT:
1. exact number$ aren’t set in stone-it’s the concept model i’m after.
2. the proper way for now is for communities/schools/shuls to do it. thus alleviating your concern of the cost being a reason not to pursue the shidduch further.
OC:
feel free to be creative. i prefer to stick with that which has proven results… but any and all ideas that work
GO FOR IT….
People don’t redd becuase of money per date… the hundreds and hundreds who try their hand would stay with it.. if they were compensated and appreciated…
paying for achivable results works-plain and pashut…
shadchanim…………..
DY:
you are 100% correct.
haven’t we discussed this before?
FYI- The newest community to launch the program we have discussed has had 20+ dates for slightly older girls set up in the last 2 weeks and 2 of them are already at date number 4.
simply put it works! and it keeps all the young people/start up shadchanm from qutiitng and thus we the potential of hundreds and hundreds more people reddig shidduchim … for the slighlty older girls!!!
here’s a email from a shadchan re: the program….
this idea is beyond words ..its truly incredible and i am gung ho non stop setting girls up .. the huge difference is its with complete simcha that i do it and it spills over in other areas of my life .. plus i am willing to do all the hand holding and guidance happily . a girl requested i go thru her closet to choose clothes for her dates . iam thrillled to do it !!! the spillover effect is enormous !!!!!
i seriously wake up excited each morning and feel my job is recognized and valuable.
GO FOR IT
I prefer to let results do the talking instead of hypothetical theory…
Divorced_guy: Good luck… here’s a hint… it’s been tried and proven to not work… people don’t stick to chasodim where they are overworked and underappreciated and the success rate is microscopic….
But by all means.. GO FOR IT…. or you can employ the model that i’ve discussed and was just launched by another community today and a school this week….
How do you suggest people be motivated to start and more importantly stick with the frustraning most often thankless job or redding shidduchim.
Rember the “success rate” assuming we judge by engagments… is extremely small and most sane people prefer to give maaser of their time whey feel are treated as sucesses.
Sac: can you believe i actually agree with everything you wrote…
Bjjkid: A few honest questions
if the boys is fantastic boy but became frum when he was 16 would you consider it?
is that a offensive suggestion?
Can I paraphrase what you wrote. Why should he suffer because he wasn’t born to frum parents.
Definately don’t “settle”, but if i was you I wouldn’t look at anything other than the boy and where he is now.
Is it fair-perhaps not- but it is the reality and the sooner you accept the better you will be.
If that’s your criteria you will find a quality boy imy”h.
And for the record i’m familar with the difficulties boys/girls in shidduchim from divorced families face.
Memo: irrelevant is more accurate than incompreensible.
Sac: “If it feels right it probably is”
I would think that the decision should have to do with the seichel at least as much as how it feels. You probably meant to “feel” in the gut, instinct kind way that you internally now it’s right and are comfortable and at peace with the decision and NOT in the bells ringing etc kind of way.
Memo: you are clearly single….
1. “you might not understand but some people have to know if they made the right choice…”
If “getting your basheret” is to you the only way of knowing you made the right choice, then here is a mean secret… you will NEVER EVER know. Last I checked, prophecy went out of style 2,000+ years ago with the petira of chanaya mishoel and azarya.
2. “Some people think and don’t marry any guy they go out with.”
Actually, I would hope that is so for most people, not just some. I would just pray that the things people are thinking about are will “this person make a wonderful spouse for me and I for them”. “Will they be a great parent to our children”.
You know sensible questions like that, and not waste time guessing what was said in the heavens before they where born.
3. “If your happily married you would understand that marrying just any Joe wont work…he’s got to be_______whatever you felt you needed “
As I wrote before, you are clearly single. If you are happily married, you will realize that ongoing work to build, enhance, and improve the realtioship and home in any and every way possible is the key to being happily married. Of course, the more comptatible you are from the beginging the better the starting point is and perhaps will make the ongoing necessary work slightly slightly easier, but that’s all it is.
and here’s a secret. Most normal helathy people could have wonderful marriages with more than one person.
Of course once a person is married the attitdute should be this is THE one for me, but prior to getting engaged/married, that worry “is this person the ONE for me” is a tremendous hinderance to getting there.
NOT he’s got to be etc….
Can someone please explain the significance of whtether the one you stand under the chuppa with is the one that was “announced 40 days before birth” basehert” etc.
Who really cares.
If both parties work at it they will imy”h have a wonderful marriage, if they don’t, they most likely won’t.
What difference does it make
especially since you, I, your family, your rov, or anyone else will never ever know what was said in the heavens.
WHY waste time and emotinaly energy on somehting completely out of your control???
As an aside, i’m always amused that people forget that that same gemara talks this house is for this person, this piece of land is for this person, in the same way that it talks about the daugther of this person for this man.
Why do people get so caught up with it?
Do you think that if you got it right you guranteed anything in life? do you think if you got it wrong you are assured of problems??
I just don’t get it
PBA: ????
Cedar: no to belabor the point but 200 a year per hall is very hight. There are less that 250 possible wedding days in a year (not counting fri nite, shabbos nite and same for yomim tovim, sefira, 3 weeks, chol hamoed etc.)
I think halls wish they where filled EVERY night but they don’t have weddings every single night.
In any event, i’m not sure if it’s a relevant discussion.
Fair Enough.
No scientific study was done on the number of engagments. I was taking very rough aprox numbers from Yehiva HS/ Bais Yackov HS graduates (not chassidishe or Modern Orthodox) I should have made that clearer in my post.
My apologies
In any event. That’s makes it all them more clearer that shadchanim aren’t the ones making the majority of shidduchim.
Then again i guess we can discuss the deifintion of a proffesional shadchan. I still have no idea what makes some one “proffesional” and what makes someone who is not proffesional but spends a lot of time trying to help people in the community.
I’d actually be curious for how people define it.
Is having a set fee the criteria- very very few have that.
The 3 shadchanim that i know well who make 25 per year don’t have a set fee.
what’s the definition
Of Course: it’s not about the finacail gain. How many of your friends dabbled in shidduchim when they first got married. How many quit out of frustration of lack of success?
In every class there are a few girls who dabble, every school has a few teachers who dabble, every shuls has a few people who dabble. the problem is the quit out of frustration, lack of success etc. this model will solve let. When people recofnize that date number one IS a success and date number four is a BIG success all the dabblers will stay the course and far more people will join.
Cedarhurst: In North America frum community there are aprox: 2,000 shidduchim made each year.
In the counry there are maybe (probably not) 5 shadchanim who consistently make 20-25 per year.
I know people in the CR think shadchanim make 75 shidduchim a year at 3k per shidduch, but they simply aren’t in touch with reality)
Lets say 5 make 25 per year. that’s 125 shidduchim
There are maybe maybe another 40 people who make 10 shidduchim a year. That’s another 400. Total of 525 shidduchim from very active shadchanim.
where are the other 1500 shidduchim coming from?
(my statement about majority of dates may be inaccurate i don’t have any good data on that. I tried to delete it but couldn’t).
Of Course:
Compensating for achievable results is the orgnaic way of devleoping tens of effective shadchanim while encourging the masses who have dabbles to NOT quit, because they realize they are SUCESSES even if the couple doesn’t get engaged.
So far in a few trials it has been very effective.
Just yesterday another grade launched it for their classmates.
End of this week imy”h another city will be doing it for the girls in their community. If you are interested in finding out more details contact the NASI Project.
It is very cost effective, it is efficient, and it is a natural organic process rather than tryin to force/beg/cajole people into redding shidduchim.
And the best part about it is that the attention it will generate will be geared towards the slightly older girls.
Fact: The vast majority of shidduchim are not made by “shadchanim”. (they set up perhpas the majority of dates, by not the majority of made shidduchim).
Fact: Presently there are simply way to few “non-shadchanim” involved in setting up their friends, neighbors etc.
As such tons of girls try to get the attention of shadchanim because to sit back and wait for the call from friends etc that never comes is way way to risky. The result is the small number of “shadchanim” are simply unable to deal with all the people coming to them. They try their best see my earlier post as one shadchan describes her dialy routine) but it’s simply impossible.
Question: what could be done to encourge and empower hundreds more people to spend time redding shidduchim. what could be done to creat a situation where in every grade/school/community there would be sufficient people dedciated to redding shidduchim????
Asnwer: see the model that has been discussed numerous times in other threads and is being implemented succesfully and growing quickly.
Imy”h in a years time it will be tens of communities and tens of schools. NOW that’s a real hope for all the singles out there.
sac: funny you write that….
here are excerpts from a shadchan’s response to someone who recently had that same comment. ….
for the record this shadchan is a saint, as 98% of the shadchanim that I have come in contact with over the last few years- she makes around 8-9 shidduchumim a year)
I am so upset I don’t know where to begin. There was so much wrong in what you wrote.
If I told you what my day was like you wouldn’t believe it.
Reality is when I can’t go on a out for a Sunday outing with my kids because I have too many people waiting for my calls to many dates to follow up to many mothers counting on me to set up their daughters.
Reality is when I can’t speak to my own married kids for days on end because I can’t manage a break to fit them in.
Reality is when hours go by and I haven’t gotten up from my chair, haven’t eaten, haven’t made supper for my children.
Reality is when my phone rings all evening and my kids after school have to help with the phones.
Reality is when I can’t go out with my friends for lunch, can’t talk to my friends on the phone and can’t share in their lives because I’m helping strangers who came to me for shidduchim.
Reality is when a whole day goes by and my husband wonders am I still alive because he can’t get thru.
Reality is rushing thru homework/ supper so I can meet the girls that are begging to be met in the evening when the are avail.
Reality is going to a melave malka, bar mitzvah,bris and missing most of it because your either texting or talking abt some shidduch that’s ongoing and needs your attention that minute.
Reality is going to bed with a stomach ache knowing how many people are counting on you and wondering how you will possibly manage to get to everyone.
Do u think its fun going to a wedding and not taking a seat. Why should people pay for me when I barely can sit down. I miss my chance to catch up with friends at a wedding.
Does anyone ever ask me if I had a chance to eat??
NEVER
everyone feels I should just be available to talk to them since I’m there anyhow.
Sac: I guess you must deal with other shadchanim
I’m curious what kind of “job” you talk about, when you say shadchanim do it as a job??
The pay certainly stinks. The typical extremely busy shadchan makes MAYBE 10 shidduchim a year and max from both sides totals 3k per shidduch (which almost never happens). That’s a lousy 3Ok for a year. That is most certainly NOT worth the bother it takes.
Sacrilege:
“the only thing that will ease the crisis is when Shadchanim start doing their jobs”
harsh words indeed for someone not on your or anyones payroll
please explain that statement….
PBA- Correct
Hello: sorry to ruin your conclusion and you might want to discuss with pumper
Tzippi:- The 70 R”Y made three very clear statements. Feel free to review what they said, i won’t bother the rest of the CR by repeating it for upteenth time.
Dunno- are there really. I know of one and only one rov who still denies, the Age Gap concept. He insists girls are NOT having a more difficult time with shidduchim than boys. How I wish he was correct, but alas…..
Would you care to share with us the names of the rabboinim (plural) who you say disagree with the Age Gap concept.
The 70 R”Y made their names very public.
Dunno: No dice. I’ll agree to not bother explaining to you, as it is to painful.
If you had a discussion with a someone whether there shabbos is every seventh day or every 10th day. would you call that agree to disagree or would say agree to not bother explaining.
I will not concede that there is a legitimate difference of opinion on this matter, and i’m a but suprised that you would take on someting 70 R”Y and gedolim who have voiced their opinion on this matter
Dunno: interesting response….. But as i mentioned i’m not going to debate single girls on this, unless you insist.They are the last ones i’m looking to convince..
TBT: thanks for the support… People like you seem to be few and far between but we are getting there…
it’s a marathon not a sprint…
havesome:
The model I have been promoting is for communities/shuls to compensate people who produce date #2/#4 for the slightly older girls.
It is irrelevant whether the person who set up the dates is a “proffesional shadchan” (whatever that means) or not.
In fact the a key success of the model lies in it’s empowerment of people on the local level such as Hight School teachers, alumni, friends etc. who may have been inclined in the past to put in the effort but have been burned and quit. This model would empower them to stay the course.
Success breeds Succes.
Mr. and Mrs. Community are any individual or group of people in any community who would like to make a huge difference in the shidduch scene for the girls of their community.
The city that was the first to do it and has been running it for 9 months now has seen
300+ shidduchim redd
64 different dates set up
18 girls dating seriously
7 engagments (there where other local engagments, but not related to the project)
and the cost……..
over 9 months
around 11K
and it is only getting better as the program initally started by reaching out only to shadchanim, and now they are reaching out to HS teachers, local boys and girls who got married in the last 5-10 years etc.
Tzippi: As i’ve said before. If you would like details contact NASI. They have a game plan and they are following it. I guess your “need” to know isn’t part of their game plan.
Dunno: you mentioned that you are a single girl. As such I have no need to scare you with the facts. Bezras Hashem you will be a beneficiary of the tremendous efforts being extened on behalf of you and all the other single girls out there.
Dunno: You don’t have to agree, I’m just promoting a concept that is the best idea out there. It has been developed by NASI after 3 years of studying the issue from many many angles. If anyone has any other effective tested and reasonable ideas let’s do it!
If you are happy with the status quo facing the girls, there’s not much i can do for you.
I for one am not in shidduchim, my children are nowehere near shidduch age and my siblings and siblings in law are not in shidduchim.
I guess I can’t be accused of being a noygeya b’davar.
Dunno: but if you refuse to employ the model i’ve presented how are you going to keep them motivated.
Case in point. I was told today of a group of women who decided 3 years ago to work as a group on shidduchim. The put in many many hours, networking, meeting, sharing ideas redding shidduchim following up etc.
over the course of 8 months they set up quite a few dates.
Do you know how many shidduchim they made?
zero….
what do you think happened after 8 months…
they quit….. and decided to leave it to “those who are better at it”
now if they would’ve have been appreciated and compensaed along the way they would’ve stayed the course.
In fact, in speaking to many shadchanim it has become apparent that the primary difference between people who are shadchanim longer term and those that quit early on, is NOT in the skill level, talent etc. BY and large it has to do with finding early success. People that had mazal and made one or two the first month or two stay the course even when they go 8 months without making a shidduch. (as a young shadchan related to me yesterday).
For the majority of people who don’t taste early success, they simply quit and leave matchmaking to those “who are good at it”.
In effect most people who put in the time and effort consistently will make shidduchim and get better at it, just most poeple never stay with it long enough to get there and why should they, it’s a thankless pursuit that subjects one to abuse and harrasment.
Hence we don’t have anyone for the girls to turn to…
Tzippi:
What does this have to do with “community connected pros”. Communities are reaching out to the boys and girls who have gotten married in the last 5-10 years as well as to the teachers in the High Schools and inviting them to join the program. (in additon to inviting shadchanim from all over)
This is the way to have a ton more people staying the course and redd shidduchim.
Each and every community will run the specifics of the program however they see fit. I have simply presented the basic model.
tzippi: If you are interested in details of the program to bring it to your community, I would suggest contacting the NASI Project and they will be glad to guide you through the process.
Tzippi:
you are quite comical. you write if it plays out and the girls will get more dates (in other words we will be succesful in alleviating the crisis because more dates will mean more marriages)…. and yet you complain that it’s not a good thing because it will add up.
I guess you prefer the present tragic situation.
Ain: Great Idea. I would add friends classmates and teachers who know the singles well.
One question: How do you suggest encourging your suggestion to take hold.
If I may, the model I presented will yield the exact result you have proposed.
Havesome/dunno:
Regarding individuals not continuing due to the cost, that is why it has so far being implemented by communities and not by the individuals.
As for unscruplous shadchanim, there will always be some abusers to a system, to date it hasn’t been a issue and anyone who takes advantage can always be disinvited from the project.
As for the two date minimum: Even getting to one date takes a load of work. If it’s not a absolute bomb the shadchan would receive 100 which is reasonable and thus we would have a army of people paying attention to the slightly older girls.
APY: you discussed a field where the customre end is divided. I didn’t know to many car dealers or auto mechanics who have complained that they get calls all hours of the day and night etc.
So i repeat my question:
“IS there a comparable field where the people helping and the people being helped have such strong opposite feelings?”
and I’ll add to is.. a comparable field that there seems to be such a shortage of providers. In the standard broker fields e.g. real estate, insurance, loans etc. there doesn’t seem to be a dearth of providers.
If shadchanus was such a wonderful lucrative proffesion why is there such a shortage??
Bei_hasdorim:
Shadchanim making Plenty of money????
how many shidduchim to you think the typical busy shadchan makes each year…..
How many shidduchim do you think the absolute top top shadchanim make each year….
The day that people who try to set up singles are appreciated (and compensated) for there time and effort is the last day we will have a need for a post like this.
There will be a plethora of people looking to help out the singles. At present it is a thankless endevour, as such not nearly enough people are involved.
Change that and the whole scene will change.
For the record I am NOT a shadchan nor even a dabbler, but i am very in tune with the scene from both the shadchans end and the singels end.