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Cleary Purim is a tremendous eis ratzon as is brought down in sefarim. Why is that not sufficient. Why do we need these gimmicky segulos.
This whole segula chasing mentality is sad and casues many people to have false hope….
TBT:
1. Please re-read the post before mine. Ofcourse mentioned and i simply replied as to the accuracy of that post.
2. Fundraising tactic??? hello?? has there been even the slighteset whiff of any kind of fundraising for this concept in the cr in the last who knows how long (if ever).
What do u think has been going on for the last 3 years…. unfourtanetly there are less than 10 people in the country who are doing anything about it.
B”H those 10 people have brought about a tremendous change and much much more is on the way.
Feel free to reach out to the NASI Project and volunteer to help. I’m sure they’d appreciate all the help they can get!
Ofcourse: now you are begiginng to grasp the enormity of the tragedy……
for many of the girls who are alrerady older (i will not give an exact age). there is simply not much to do.
The best we can hope for is t get to work as quickl and as effetviely as possible to
1. make sure this doesn’t contintue going forward
2. help as many of those older girls before it’s to late.
TBT: i did re-read your last post. YOU mentioned that YOU know a shadchan who would do so. I therefor encourage you to follow up and report. Your knowing a shadchan isn’t going to help the OP. The people I know who are shadchanim would be very unlikely to work as a advocate.
In additon, I personally still don’t like the idea of paying the advocate a flat fee. Pay a advocaote (if you want to go that route) as per results dates produced via their effrots. Why pay a flat fee? But if it works go for it!
Are you ready to test it and report back?
If it works we will test some more/ tweek some more and then figure out a way to make it large scale while avoiding any downsides.
TBT: are you game?
No it wasn’t the suggestion of the OP. Snow suggested putting a shadchan on retainer to redd shidducim.
Your model (if it could be implemented) is wholly different and i for one am very interested to see if there really are numberous shadchanim who would take on the role of being advocates and compensated for results produced. If it can be, i would promote as best as I could.
the difference between the two models are self evident.
1. compensation only for results
2. more importantly, by having a effective advocate, the single will get attention from scores of shadchanim instead of just from one “retainer shadchan”.
What remains to be seen is wheter there really are a bunch – or even a few – shadchanim out there who have any interest in being advocates isntead of redding shidducim.
TBT: Let us know how you fare!!
TBT: Fantastic! go for it!!!!!!
TBT: why do you think a shadchan would be willing to become a personal advocate anyomore than you local 5th grade teacher. Shadchanim redd shidducim they don’t take individuals under their winge and reach out to other shadchanim en masse on thier behalf. if you find someone that will please please let me know.
Of course:
I wonder where you got that musical chairs mashol from 🙂
this program actually works very well for the 25+ girls. As you aptly described, it is not easy to get older girls to date number 1 and certainly not to date #4. As such all that much more appreciation (and compensation) for the time and effort to get there is in order.
The places that have employed this program of 250/500 for the 25+ girls have seen a tremendous amoung of quality attention comning their way.
DY: girls/their parents. either before a first date or before date number 4 unless it seems like a “sure thing”. When a Community/shul/school/ does it on behalf of the girls this problem is resolved. similarly, if one does it on behalf of their friend or relative, it resolves the issue.
TBT: Communities and classmates are doing on behlaf of the individuals.
It can be done on a individual basis as well and it works very well. It is not being promoted to the public yet because of some potential donwsiedes, but any yachid who wants to know what works, should know THIS works!
Additionally,a friend of family member can do it on behalf of their friend/relative without the friend or relative knowing. That has all the positives without any downsides of the families themselves doing it.
For the reocrd: it’s not magic. it needs follow up with shadchanim etc. A one time conversation will not have them remember your forwever. The reason it works is because shadchanim -like other humans – appreciatie being appreciated and valued. They can’t speak to everyone who wants their attetnion and they can’t look out for everyone.
Being a person who values them and apprecaites them is a sure fire way for them to return your phone calls and try to help you.
Two communites in North America. One school in flatbush. I’m not at liberty to publicize the names in this forum.
each place runs it their own style.
the basic system is
girls 20-24 date number 1-100 date nubmer 4-400
girls 25+ date number 1-250 date number 4-500.
the school (actually the grade) that is doing it is doing it for girls who are now 24.
They set it up as date number 1-150 date number 4-400.
perhaps send in this question to businesshalacha.com and see what they say. It might even make their popular newsletter “Business Weekly”.
I think the correct halacha it to ask a few photographres what standard business practice is. If standard practice allows for such a break than you actions were certainly warratned from a halachic point of view as all agreements unless specifcially mentioned otherwise are assumed to be subject to standard pracrtice for that field. if a hired photograohere would be expected to not take such a break then the break was in all likley unwarratned.
i would posit that such a break is likely expeceted and assumed by employers of photographers.
Kol Hahavood for looking to do the right thing in monetarty issues.
I have!
as have two communites, one school and more on the way to follow….
and that is exactly why one should not just cold call shadchanim but one should network reach out to realitvies, family, cousins etc…and yes shadchnim that you come in contact with and the message is….
i understand how difficult it is to get a date off the ground…. i appreciate any and all the time you spend of behalf of…. if youy are able to get her to date number 1 i would want to compendsate you … if it’s a real quality idea that gets to date #4 i would compensate …… in apprciate of what it takes…
try it it works……
TBT/Ofcourse:
Please expain how appreciating and compensating ppl for the time and effort they put into your child is a “age gap” solution??
That should AND DOES help individual girls/their families who put it in play.
Disclaimer: it is not a magic solution. If a specific single is a difficult situation, they can and will generate attetnion but no gurantees of a date. Shadchanim can only try, and being appreciated for theri time and efforts is a very powerful motivator. They are NOT kol yachol.
For the record I am open to any and all idea to help the yachid and the rabbim with regards to shidduchim.
I ask one simple request. test it/tweek it and when you have proven results implement. It that being unreasonable??
Theories are a dime a dozen and not necessariyl helpful.
Results talk. Bring them to the table and i’m all ears.
Ofcoure: re: lists of shadchanim. Of course! (pun intended) but Snow wants to see for themselves…
TBT: thanks for the therapy….
not sure why you would hire someone to do the work, but you can try it… I would suggest simply reach out yourself and make known that you appredciated ppl’s time and efforts and in recognition for that you are ready to compensate for results. The people receiving the gelt have no pressure (and they prefer it that way) and the person paying – only pays for results.
If you think by paying up front you will have some on retainer, by all means go for it. If you are interested in somone who has been there/done that/ FYI-it doesn’t work.
in addition, somoneone who is presently a shadchan will not spend theier time networking for you to find other shadchanim. A shadchan redds shidduchim, if they were singles advocates trying to get you attention from other shadchanim then they aren’t doin what they want to be doing.
Having a friend/relative/ connected person reach out on your behalf to shadchanim and let them know how much you appreciated their time and effort…
yeah that works, just ask the communities that are doing it with tremendous success..
ofcourse: i guess what i’m smoking it working becuase hundreds and hundreds such shidducim have taken palce in the last few years and shadchanim from the biggest names out there to regular people report that they are having a relatively esasy time getting yesses for slightly odler girls.
Suggestions that in the past that the phone would have been hung up on by the mother of the boys are now getting very serious consideration.
Snow: keep looking. After you try to reinvent the wheel come back and i’ll show u what works….
snow: not enought meeting place. Gee i wonder how the boys get married… becaue they don’t seem to be having difficulty gettnig dates.
re phone numbers of shadchanim: as otheres have pointed out there are lists on other threads. In addition, the L’chaim org in monsey has a extensive list of tens and tens of shadchanim that they make avail for a $18 donation.
i was wondering (in all seriousness) what are you giong to do with a list if you plan on putting shadchanim on retainers. how many can you actually afford to put on a payproll.
ofcourse:
1. would 70 R”Y count as “those in authority”. becuase they signed a letter clearly stating that Age Gap is the primary cause of the shiddcuh crisis.
2. the people redding the shidduchim are the MOST importnat ppl in this issue, becasue the boys will go out with the girls they are redd. if they hear names of 22 yr olds then they will go out with them. it they hear the names of the 19 year olds then they will go out with those instead.
In fact the ppl redding shiddcuhim (shadchanim and regualr ppl) play a far far greater role in alleviating the situation than anyone.
if you understood age gap properly you would understand why that is EXACTLY why the girls go running to shadhanim and the boys have no need to.
Of Course:
we’ve explained that phenomana 100x’s already.
thoese who get it, get it, those who don’t – i guess just won’t.
Ofcours: If you are someone who is involved in shidduchim i think it behooves you to take 3 minutes to understand it. It takes only 3 minutes, but it requires 3 minutes of thinking about it with a open mind without any preconceived notions.
Put all you personal thoeries, suspicions, first hand opinions to rest for 3 mintues and the age gap concept becomes ovious.
Simply put many many more girls beging dating every year than boys.
the rest is just a trickle effect from that reality.
smartcookie:
i appreciate your comment!
smartest, not by a loooong shot. Input from hundreds and hundreds of people from all segments of the community over a extended period of time can make any person quite familar with any topic.
TBT:
i was just curious why you think this idea of appreciating and compensating people who spend time on singles even if it doesn’t result in engagement is a “AGE GAP” idea.
(on the macro level it actually is but on the micro level it isn’t at all.)
Snow:
Sensitive, not really – important more likely. I’ve been on this topic for quite some time and I guess as a result of my involvement I have a good handle on which ideas work and which don’t
As i’ve stated previously on numerous threads, I am NOT a shadchan.
TBT: Monopoly, certainly not, a lot of researcech and time spent on the issue. Yes. Hey anyone can do whatever they like, I’m just offering insight from the field s to what has been tried and failed and what has been tried and worked.
Of coures any and everyone can feel to make the mistakes yourself and not learn from others.
(FYI- I have already tested the idea of shadchanim on retainer and it’s a misreable failure. It may help a girl here a girl there – much like without a retainer might- but overall a miserable failure)
Binyan adei ad is NOT a lubavitch org (though maybe there are two by the same name).
TBT, there are about 15 other threads that you missed 🙂
Snow:
You seem to have strong ideas about what works and want doesn’t in terms of getting attention for specific girls.
I’m just curious how many shadchanim have you dealt with/spoken to over the last 3 years upon which you are basing opinions.
I’m also curious what kind of money you think would work as a retainer to get a specific shadchan to focus intensly and produce results.
I’m sure for 500 dollars a very active shadchan would make your daughter a high priority and focus intnetly on her day after day week after week- NOT!
Oh and what if there might be someone else who is the person who would have the proper idea for this specific girls. I guess you should go put any and every shadchan willing to listen on retainer. That sounds very cost effective..
When you are finsihed answering those questions, I’ll let you know that tried and tested is reaching out and letting shadchanim (full time/part time/orgs/non orgs) know that you appreciate and recognize the time and effort it takes to get a date off the ground. let them know in recognition of that fact you will compensate them for dates produced. how much to compensate, that’s for each and everyone to decide for themselves. the more difficutly the situation the more i would think to offer. in addition getting to a date #4 should deserve a higher compensation than a date #1.
This has been proven to work
and FYI- Binyan Adei Ad is comprised of a group of SAINTS. (I know two of them personally) who dedicate inhuman amounts of time energy kishkes and every ounce of their being to help older singles. But i’m not sure if they get salaries so i guess they don’t count….
funny you didn’t even hear of them.
Dunno: I would answer you question but i risk offending the entire CR, so i’ll leave it unanswered.
snow: this is hysterical…..
“I’m not referring to the typical regular shadchanim, I’m asking about professionals who devote more time and effort for you because they’re being paid- and not just when they make a shidduch.”
do you have any idea how hard the typical shachan works inlcueing the 98.5% who get absolutely NO salary????
for the record – Apreciating anyone and everyone who works on you/your childs behalf and recognizing the immense amount of time and energy they put in (by comensating for dates they set up)… works in a huge huge way.
Proof is in the pudding….. and it’s coming to a community near you…. SOON…..
Correct: Many still are and that’s simply becasuse we still have a lot of work to do and a long way to go to solve the crisis. B”H it is quite common as of late for 23 year olds boys todate girls their own age instead of 19/20 yr olds and thats a good thing.
Seeallside: Mentioner (maschil in halachic terms), is the person who presents the idea to both sides as a result of which the shidduch gets off the ground.
This informaton that in the last few years far far more slightly older girls are getting married and fewer 19/20 year olds is based on hundreds of conversations with shadchanim. an exact study of girls schools has not be done yet to that effect because the studies focused on girls 24-30.
B”H in the last few years girls there has been a significant increase in shidduchim for girls 24+.
as for your statement”more of them should get married at that age”
not if you want to solve the shiddcuh crisis they shouldn’t….
any individual girls has a right to try to get married, but hopefuuly more and more the boys will continue to lean towards the slightly older girls.
Ofcoure: correct. Howver with money owed, fellings are not the determining factor. Mechila of a financial obligattion certainly works, however I think that requires a explicit verbal statement to that effect. Simply not feeling owed does not absolve one of a financial obligation.
OC:
Coincdence or not. The money was owed and B”H it was paid. No different then failure to pay a lawyer, accountatn or any other service provider.
OC:
Coincdence or not. The money was owed and B”H it was paid. No different then failure to pay a lawyer, accountatn or any other service provider.
Ofcourse:
Obviously fewer of them are getting married at that age, B”H!
Seeallsides:
The “mentioner” in your case has a legit expectation for 1/3 of standard shadchnus. He was the person who suggested it and based on your despription the boy and girls were ready to proceed and used a new person to serve as the go between.
No reason for someone to feel weird aobut paying money that has been owed for years. It probably feels much weirder to come back as a gilgul becaue they didn’t.
Of course: Kol Hakavood for your work and dedication on shidduchim in general.
You clearly state the you were not inolved in redding this SPECIFIC shidduch nor the go between once they started. You were one (of probably many) who provided information. That is NOT a shadchan and halachically is not entitled to any form of shadchnus. If a side chooses to express their apprciaiton for your help in the past that is very kind, I happen to be a big proponent of that, but certainly no choshen mishpat obligation.
Spiral: I find the psak more thatn a little odd. A maschil (who the poskim discuss as getting 1/3) is the peron who brings about the start of a shidduch. If somoneone redds a shidduch and nohing happens for the suggestion then they are not the shadchan period. Perhpaps what your Rov meant was if you listened to the second person because you had already heard it and thus the first person was partially resposible for your giving it a shot, then the first person is a part maschiil and as such it should probably be 1/6, 5/6.
whether the second shadchan knew or didn’t know that it had been redd should NOT be relevant. What is relevant is what brought about YOUR interest in the shidduch.
Of Course:
partially.
The age gaps which are causing the problem, have VERY little to do with guys getting married late becaue they hang around/picky etc. That is a very very small precentage of guys. It is primarily due to fact that even the (majority of) boys who get marreid quickly inevitably marry girls 3/4 years younger then them since the boys are starting aprox 23 and the girls at 19.
B”H in the last few years we have seen hundreds of 23 year old boys marrying girls their own age.
DY- Exactly.
If anyone is interested i’d be happy to point out accurate factors in additon to age gap casuing difficulties in shidduchim. I just wasn’t going to let a totally unsubtantiated personal hypotesis go with out challenging it.
and that’s exactly what the OP’s statement was. Pure unproven conjecture.
OC:
“My point is that there are lots more singles than ever who go on for years looking for perfect”
Please show proof that this is a new or worsening phenonama. Any and all data I have seen shows nothing of the sort.
“What it boils down to is that the guys, more often than not, can afford to be pickier than the girls, bec after a while girls run out of older guys to date, and guys dont have that problem, because they can simply rob a cradle, which girls cant do.”
So please clarify what you point is? At the end of the day you agree the boys are getting married correct? And the girls aren’t becaue they don’t relly have who to marry?
SO WHAT EXACTLY IS YOUR POINT???
That some guys get married at 28 instead of 23. And you huypothesize (without proof) that nowadays more guys are getting married at 28 as opposed to they used to get married earlier?
Is that the totallity of you point. Because that’s NOT what was written or implied in the OP.
Fankly, even if that point was true (which i have no reason to think it is) it is a minor minor issue in the grand scheme of things.
At 28 a guy has dated 5 years. The equivalent of a girl who is 24.
33 is simply a condervative estimate of a guy who has dated 10 years. (if he started 23). And plenty of guys who are single at 33 end up married (unlike the girls who are single at 29).
I don’t reallly care if singles date for a while before they get married (though it’s nice if it happens quick). The goal is they should be married. You stated rather stay single then marry- please support that statment.
I can confidentially state that for the girls who have dated 10 years and are still single it is far far worse than it ever was.
For the boys there is no data to support that.
Of Course: I’m glad you think
“ask any Shadchan and Im pretty sure they will agree that there are more singles who are extremely inflexible”
I have spokne to MANY MANY shadchanim and they do NOT find that there are far more boys who are single 33+ then in the past. So I for one think you hypothesis is far far off base.
Cherrybim: If I believe that I all sick chikdren will be healed does that make that be so??? Neither does your belief that all singles could get married. It unfourtanetly just isn’t so. Any specific one, yes, all as a whole tragically not.
Of course: did you puprosely ignore my question. You made an accusatory claim against a chelek of klal yisroel without any substantative evidence to support the claim.
I will posit that the number of older single boys (33 + and never been married) percentage wise is no greater thatn it was 15 years ago. As such your claim is unjustified.
Can you refute that?
or do you happen to know a hanful of “picky” people and therefore are painting with a broad brush.
Of course:
Plsease substantiate your OP with data or at the very least strong anectodal inforamtion. Are there percentatge- wise significantly more boys who are single and 35 today than there where 10 years ago.
Without that information, this entire thread is simple conjecture.
I for one have very little reason to believe that to be the case. I can’t say it’s definately not so, but I have seen nothing, heard nothing to indicate that it is.
Individual:
“I have been to more weddings than I can count for young women over 21 this past year. (I think I went to at least 5 just over the summer, and have a few approaching.)”
B”H – as i have written numerous times- significant progress is being made day by day week by week.
Canine: if you notice not a single suggesion was made “telling” girls to hold of dating. the reason- they won’t listen so why waster time. But things can be done to have eligible boys date girls their own age.
Regarding girls getting married at 21 or a bit older vs. 19, I’ll leave that to the Rabbonim and R”Y to decide if it’s kedai to encourage boys to date/marry girls thier own age even though inevitably more girls will get married slightly later.
70 R”Y signed a letter answering that question very clearly
regarding why it wasn’t like this 30 years ago… here’s some anecdoatal to chew on.
1. Take my elemmentary schoold there were maybe 3 families with 10 children. nowadays it’s pretty common, then it wasn’t. It’s called population growth.
2. not all boys started dating at 22/23. far far more boys began younger.
Canine: two factors,
1. Population growth which causes there to be significantly more 19 yr olds than 23 yr olds
2. dating styles being more rigid and girls by and large beging dating a year out of sem (2 yrs out of HS) age 19, and boys not begining to date until 22/23
OC; glad you have a opinion. Please back it up with data. The overwhelming majority of boys are married befre the date 3 yrs and by five years they are almost all taken.
Even your idea that boys are more fussy (which may be true- but would only a minimal impact on the crisis because the fussy ones also get married wihtin a few years) is a result of them having the hammer and being able to be fussy… ???
But the good news is that as of the last few years far far more guys are dating and marrying girls their own age.
Canine: I’m not a historian. I was first informed of the issue around 4 years ago. Anecdotally- girls who began dating 15 yrs ago or more didn’t seem to have the problem.
What is clear is that we presently have a massive problem and age gap is the gorrila in the room causing it.
Of course:
1. One graduating class of the year 2004 of a school in brookyn has started it for their fellow classmates.
2. The NASI Project will fill you in on all the details. They asked that the specifics not be posted in a public forum. In general each program is run by each individual community, school, shul and the NASI Project helps them get it up and running.
Have a great shabbos
Tzippi: Feel free to edcuate the newbies. i’m finsished debating you and chanoch l’naar ….
a program for slightly older girls
community #1- 11 months – 80 dates/ 30 girls past date number 4/ 10 engagements
commmunity #2- 5 weeks 40 dates/ one enggement already.
two more communities about to start.
schools have started as have shuls.
feel free to explain how it works.
when the time is ripe
Yated, Hamodia, Mishpacha, FJJ and others will cover the program. For now it is not being widely publicized, but rather being rolled out one at a time.
Canine:
Of Course:
1. The boys by large don’t seem to suffer from the problem of there not being enough shadchanim.
2. The lack of shadchanim or reguler peopel who spend the time to set up shidduchim for the exact reasons you mention, is being directly addresses as discussed in preious theads. The results have been astounding so far and in due time it will be rolled across the country.
3. To be clear- adding 1,000 shadchanim will only help the crisis if they focus on slightly older girls = close in age shidduchim. that is exactly what is being put into play.
DY-
1. slightly relevant because the boys are almost ALL married. true for every single boy that means there is a additonal single girls.
2. NASI Project…. BINGO……
oomis: correct. so how do we even out the numbers.
Eman/mike: who are the “not good” boys marrying? Your analysis is irrelevant to the question of why we have so many older single girls and so few older single boys.
haros: i feel your pain. Unfourtanetly your presentation of the situation is not the standard- i wish it where…There are plenty of people out there who would have plenty of quality suggestions for you. The average shadchan is dying to get their hands on a quality boy.
Tzippi: The program are in place in doing amazing. Feel free to read your earlier posts and review. The most recent city to launch has been doing it for 5 weeks. The results 38 new dates set up almost every one is a under the radar girls and they have one engagment already.
Canine: absolutely incorrect. Never have never will. Each and every boy is free to marry whomever he thinks will make the best wife for him, and he the best husband for her. Please don’t put words in my emails. And i’d be glad to discuss solutions instead of trying to asses balme.
DY- the point you make is the devastating factor. When it’s 100 boys and 110 girls it’s one thing.. when it’s 2 boys and 12 girls it’s tragic….
Canine: In case you have failed to notice i have NEVER once pointed fingers at who is at fault, I have simply stated the obvious that the ages at which the boys and girls begin dating has created this monster.
I prefer to focus on solutions instead of assigning blame. I find it more productive.
DY- 10-12% IS a HUMONGOUS difference. That is the problem. that 10% of girls are stuck from day one.
meaning for every 100 boys starting to date there are 110 girls. Year one it’s not so prononced. However, when 95 of those boys are married to 95 of those girls (theoritically) and 15 girls are left over, it becomes 15 to 5, but it is the same 10 girls (1 out of 10 )that were there from day one.
In any event i think we are not disagreeing… and the solution revolves aroudn closing the age gap in the early dating years.
Cshapiro: Hashem didn’t cause this problem. HE simply allowed us to mess up (as he is wont to do). Please don’t blame HIM for what we humans have wrecked. Instead lets get to work on solving it.