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OFcourse:
I’ll allow you to anwser your own question but here’s something to consider:
From NASI:
The two goals of the program are:
B. To bring as much attention as possible to the young women who have been dating more than 6/7 years, thus affording them every opportunity to find their zivug.
Best Mommy:
When you have a moment, scroll up a few posts and you’ll see the answer to your question
Bein Hasidorim:
even i know how to cut and paste
FROM NASI
did you notice there is no address on the ad where to send money????????
NOT A PENNY OF A GIRL can be sent in (even is she tried) until the financials are set and airtight. Girls that are asking to join aer being told to not send in any money. They are in the process of receiving guidance from experts in the field (lawyers/accountans/ etc) how to set it up in a NO QUESTION ABOUT IT system.
A sytem that is trasparent, secure, with effiienct and trustworthy oversight.
once that is in place it will be publicized. Then and only then will girls be given instructions where to send the money.
NASI understood it would take a while until the program got traction. They assumed it would take a good few weeks until the first 50 singed up. During that time they planned and are working on getting the financials in place. This way it can all come togehter.
Dr Geller:
I would like to respond but i’m simply not sure what to start so here are a few points.
1. we believer in bechira
2. G-D doesn’t “want” there to be hundredrds and hundreds of girls with know chance to marry. He “simply” allows us to run our lives and our society (within reason) and doesn’t necessarilly intervene to save us from the disastorous results of our own decisons.
3. G-D didn’t dictate that boys should start dating close to 23
4. G-D didn’t dictate that girls should start datng around 19
5. G-D didn’t dictate that boys who start dating at 23 should do shidduchim with girls who are 19.
6. What happened to the ploni of all the bas ploni’s who are above age x and have (biderech hateva) no chance of ALL getting married. (individuals each have opportunities, but collectively it’s impossible in our present state of affairs.
Dr. Geller: Please let me know if I need to go on. Please don’t bother attempting to understand the NASI Project in general or this specific program in particular until you understand these concepts. In fact the overwhelming majorit of negative feedback is simply based on a misunderstaning of the stark devatating petrifying reality on the ground.
Note to all: there is a effective proposal in palce to sovle the crisis once and for all going forward, and help if not all but vast vast numbers of the girls who are above age x.
Unfortantetly the powers that be continue to take time to bring those changes to fruition. They are simple, they are minor and the impact will be nothing short of collasal and earth shattering.
The outpouring of raw emotion that this new program brought forths (though it was NOT the attention to in any way hurt anyone chas v’shalom) is actually a bracha gedola.
This very same anger, venom, pain, agony, hurt, desperation, panic that has been brought forth this week and misdirected towards the project that has been toiling yomam v’loila for 4+ years now, will a small small small number of people, with minimal assistance from media outlets, to ease and alleviate in any which way possible the plight of these precious bnos yiroel, that AWESOME power, will now be channeled in the proper direction to bring about the changes that are so easy to do.
Now the the best news for all you CR folks. The day that happens, is the day the NASI Project closes up shop and i will then retire from this forum.
Have a wonderful shabbos
From NASI
re; the first program from a few years ago
Here’s one such example:
Let us be mispallel that, beezras hashem, this plan ultimately serve as the game changer it is hoped to become. I stand in awe of the zechusim of those who are working so hard to be the shluchim to bring this potential yeshua to Klal Yisroel.
BEYOND THE KNEE JERK REACTION
I was asked to advise that there will be a full detailed explanation that explains and answers every single question raised here.
1. why does it start at 22
2. why does it go up each year
3. why are there no R”Y names on it
etc etc…
I’m told the full detailed explaination will appear in various newspapers.
So far 99% of the people who have seen the full explanation have had a 180 degree turnaround and now are fully on board with the project and program.
I look forward to hearing back after you see it.
mylogic37: Nice to see someone gets it.
a big reason it started at 22 and not at 25 is because a major part of this program is continuion to close the age gap. for the 75% of shadchanim who don’t even look at young women over 25 (and this program would encourage them to work a bit but they will still spend their majority of their time on the guy who are just begingin to date (22-25) and the girls who could be matched with them. it is CRITICAL to encourage attention for 22+ instead of everyone chasing the 19 and 20 year olds.
Of course: why are you bashful about contating them directly. Perhaps they will agree with you and close the program, Or perhpas you might get a much better understanding and then you’ll report back the CR. Is a simple email/phone to much to ask?
FL613: the list will be made available to all shadchanim who would like it. There will be no charge. They simply have to agree to abide by a few basic rules to ensure integrity of the program.
(Dr. Pepper. Why don’t you ask NASI to insist that all your suggested guidlines be required for any shadchan getting the list :), but don’t waste your time it’s not happening
Of Course:
Suggestion, why not contact the NASI Project and present your arguments directly to them, and hear what they have to say. For the record, over the summer one famous (or infamous) member of CR who did alot of NASI bashing did just that and i’m told that he was quite satisfied after their conversation.
Ditto Dr. Pepper
here are some FAQ:
a) why do the numbers go up each year. why can’t it just be one number for all young women above a certain age
b) why start at 22. how sad that 22 years old now are made to feel “nebach”. Why didn’t NASI pick a older age and start there, why 22?
I’ll leave these to see if the CR has any clue as to why NASI laucnched this part of the project but you can be sure there are good answers to these questions.
related to some of the other comments it seems some people missed this post earlier…
This actually is the biggest help for the poorer girls. it will enable them to get the attention that previoulsly only weathly girls were getting. In fact wealthy girls you can be sure won’t be on the list…
Here’s a question:
Re: the girls who don’t have the money handy etc… if eliyahu hanovi came to town and guaranteed they would be married by chanuka. How much would a 25 year old or a 28 year old girl give for that guarantee…..
we all know they would give 7,000 or 11,000 in a flash… whatever it takes…. Serve pizza at the wedding but at least they’ll dance!
NASI is not eliyahu hanavi…. but her money isn’t spent until after she walks down the aisle…. they aren’t making any promises for results, they aren’t even promising any phone calls. They will get this list into the hands of shadchanim all over the country and there’s a good chance that girls on the list will get attetnion more than if they weren’t on the list.
No one is forcing any girl to join.
any day a girl wants her money back she can have it back. The money belongs to her not to NASI. what does she have to lose… the .025% interest that the money was earning in a savings account.
Only time will tell if it works or not. If it works (meaning girls join and girls get married) then it’s all good. If it doesn’t, meaning either girls don’t join, or they join and don’t get married, then no harm no foul. No one spent any money other than NASI on some ads.
Re: the need for oversight and to instill confidence in the community. VERY true point. As the ad mentioned, they are setting up a system that will leave no room for doubt. It will be strict and it will be transparent. It should be in place shortly and when it is it will be publized.
For the record: the mission of the NASI Project hasn’t changed one iota. Alleviate the shidduch crisis by closing the age gap. This program is another piece of accomplishing that end, by generating massive attention for the girls who didn’t just start dating will result in more for them.
as an aside the 100/400 program (appreciating shadchanim for achiveable results produced for girls who didn’t just start dating) has been tremendously succesful. It is active in 6 different communites and will be coming to two more large in town communities withing the next few weeks.
YES
please see post above from m in Israel, where that exact question was asked and answered.
NOT a penny of their money is spent unless the walk down the aisle. Only exception is if a girl from the list gets engaged and insists that the shadchan get paid before the chuppah. In that case the shadchan will recieve it before the chassuna and the 500 will wait till after the chassuna to go to NASI. Otherwise, until the chassuna it’s her money.
This actually is the biggest help for the poorer girls. it will enable them to get the attention that previoulsly only weathly girls were getting. In fact wealthy girls you can be sure won’t be on the list…
Here’s a question:
Re: the girls who don’t have the money handy etc… if eliyahu hanovi came to town and guaranteed they would be married by chanuka. How much would a 25 year old or a 28 year old girl give for that guarantee…..
we all know they would give 7,000 or 11,000 in a flash… whatever it takes…. Serve pizza at the wedding but at least they’ll dance!
NASI is not eliyahu hanavi…. but her money isn’t spent until after she walks down the aisle…. they aren’t making any promises for results, they aren’t even promising any phone calls. They will get this list into the hands of shadchanim all over the country and there’s a good chance that girls on the list will get attetnion more than if they weren’t on the list.
No one is forcing any girl to join.
any day a girl wants her money back she can have it back. The money belongs to her not to NASI. what does she have to lose… the .025% interest that the money was earning in a savings account.
Only time will tell if it works or not. If it works (meaning girls join and girls get married) then it’s all good. If it doesn’t, meaning either girls don’t join, or they join and don’t get married, then no harm no foul. No one spent any money other than NASI on some ads.
Re: the need for oversight and to instill confidence in the community. VERY true point. As the ad mentioned, they are setting up a system that will leave no room for doubt. It will be strict and it will be transparent. It should be in place shortly and when it is it will be publized.
For the record: the mission of the NASI Project hasn’t changed one iota. Alleviate the shidduch crisis by closing the age gap. This program is another piece of accomplishing that end, by generating massive attention for the girls who didn’t just start dating will result in more for them.
as an aside the 100/400 program (appreciating shadchanim for achiveable results produced for girls who didn’t just start dating) has been tremendously succesful. It is active in 6 different communites and will be coming to two more large in town communities withing the next few weeks.
Yatzmich:
the ad says clearly, for the first 12 months once your in your in. if a girl chooses to stay in after 12 months (presumably because she appreciaites the extra attention she is recieving and thinks it gives her a better shot to get married, then she brings herself current).
m in Israel:
the $500 is just as guranteed as the shadchanus money. if a girls wants out (or gets engaged via a shadchan who didn’t get her name from the list) she gets the money back. in addition the first 50 girls that sign up are not being asked to put the $500 in.
dr p
How many shadchanim do you know of that make 12 shidduchim a year each year and who recedive full shadchanus from each of them
Do you have any idea how many hours of work it takes for those few shadcahnim who do average a shidduch a month.
If you think any and every stay at home mom who wants some easy cash can make a shidduch a month you have NO idea. Your really don’t.
Of those that presently are making a shiddcuh a month, do you have any idea how many years they where at it untill they reached that level of production??
Dr. Pepper
You didn’t respond to my earlier post. I assume you didn’t see it. It referenced you comment along the lines of “yet there is lots of money to be earned if the couple ends up getting married”.
I think you are off base. See my earlier post.
In a nutshell Shadchanus is certainly NOT a way for a stay at home mom to bring in supplemental income. There are many many other ways to bring in far more money with far less work, includign opportunites that don’t have any training requirment.
Abe:
If the shadchanus money wasn’t yet paid it might be different than if it was paid already. I’m not a posek but a simple reading of the rama might indicate that distinction. I would recommend bringing this kind of question to a competent authority.
Dr. Pepper.
I agree with your ideas for shadchanim behavor which as you say is common sense and basic middos.
Dr. P
“The problem, in my opinion, with shadchanim these days is that there is lots of money involved when an idea comes to fruition, “
Please explain what you mean by that. Do you mean that people who “yenta” in shidduchim are making it rich (i think facts on the ground of monies earned by vast majority of ppl who “yenta” in shidduchim would dispute that), or do you mean that ppl choose to yenta here and there in shidduchim for the chance to strike it rich of a payday once in a moon of 2,000 to 3,000. If you are reffering to the very very few shaddchanim who actually make enough shidduchim each year (in conjunction with other shiddcuh opportunities such as being hired by a city,) are those the ones you want banned? They are making 20 plus shidduchim a year……
Abe: Look at the Rama. (of course if the custom is to return the shadchanus money then that is the halacha. I was simply pointing out what the halahca is if there is no clear cut cusom.).
The point i was making is that halacha views the shadchans role to bring the couple to engagement/chuppah. It is not the shadchans job to ensure that they have a happy marriage. For some reason there are posters in the cr who seem to think the shadchan is responsible for all lack of middos chinuch parnasah etc…
It goes without saying that a shadchan who deliberatley misleads either party is obviously a mazik.
BPT you are arguing on halacha. Look at the Rama who discusses when a shidduch breaks up before a chassuna. In many situations the shadchan did their role and deserves their compensation(of course if the breakup was becasue of the shadchans deliberate misrepresentation of the situations then they are the cause and a mazik.) Halacha compares a shadchan to a broker. If they close the deal they did their job. If you buy a house please don’t blame the agent if you break a leg next week on the front steps or if you have bad mazal in your new home….
There is no artificial price tag. it’s simply what each communities minhag is to pay.
Perhaps you are confuing a shadchans role with the role of parents schools etc. it is not the shadcahns role to ensure a happy marriage.
The shadchans role is to set up the singles to the best of their ability. certailnly if a shadchan is dishonest etc then they are simply not doing what they pretend to be doing. But it is not the shadchans job to make sure the boy is a mentsch or the girl knows how to be a wife and mother.
Please don’t blame a shadchan for the shortcomings in what parents etc shold be doing..
Either way i think this argument is once again going in circles so hatzlacha…
modchebp:
I have no problem with shadchanim being compensated properly for their time and efforts. I simply think your model is seriously flawed.
As i have posted many times (and is being applied in numerous comminuties as we speak) shadchanim should be compensated for achievable results.
What you can NOT do- get people engaged
What you CAN do – set up dates.
if you would like to run it like a business i suggest you let people know ahead of time you do NOT charge to meet a girl/boy nor to review their resume. IF you get a shidduch off the ground you have one fee if it gets to date #4 it has a additional fee.
This way you are compnesated for the results after the fact. No pressure no expectations.
It works fabulously when it is implemented by communites as is presently being done and spreading quickly.
It works because the financial compensation is nice and -just as important -it works becasue HUMANS like being appreciated for their time and effort and resond in kind. It’s part of the makeup of the creature known as people.
However I don’t like and don’t encourage this concept when it’s paid for by the parents becasue it introduces a added factor in considering whether to start and or continue a shidduch.
However, charging for meeting singles/reviewing resumes simply casues ill will as the singles/their families expect the world because they paid, and no human can deliver results (even if measured in terms of dates or even phone calls) for every person/resume they receive.
As for BPT issue with kids being handed things etc. I simply don’t understand what that perhaps legitmate comment has anything to do with the need for people who redd shidduchim to be compnesated properly.
If I may ask. What has my transmission proven?? When it went it cost over 2 grand. same for a root canal. And did I mention the cost to redo a roof……
Why is compensating and appreciating a shadchan somehow linked to a sense of entitlement on the part of the singles???
Hacham: Great question. Ask a competent rov to answer that question. My hope in this thread is to establish that the question of how much is owed to a shadhan is a halacha question and requires a competent authority to answer, no less than a question regarding kashrus in the kitchen.
Chein: You are free to question the going rate however that doesn’t change the halachic obligation on the recipient of the service to pay the going rate. If you would like to discuss whethere the going rate is reasonable perhaps that’s for another thread but whatever is the going rate then that is what is owed the shadchan.
Wolf: As i’m sure you well know you anyone deserving of being paid for a service is free to be moichel what is rightfully coming to them.
Kako: you have to pay what halacha dictates not what you feel is the proper amount. Same for all halahic brokers/service provides. You know a plumber came and fixed my drain. Standard rates for his work are 100 but i don’t think he deserves it. I mean he only spent 10 minutes on the sink. I think i’ll give him $30 instead. $150 is outrageos for 15 minutes don’t you think? Well that’s just to bad and to not pay his fee would be a issur doraisa of “oseik schar sachir”
For situations where one person gives the name (and gets yesses from both sides), and then someone else serves as the go between, (this is common where the suggestion comes from a family memeber or friend and they would like to have someone more experienced take over, then i believe the halacha is that the “suggester” has the halachic status of a “maschil” receives 1/3 of the customary shadchanus and the person who took over receives 2/3.
If someone has a idea for a shidduch but isn’t succesful in getting yesses from both sides then there is strong room to think they don’t have the status of a shadchan at all (of course ask a shayla). If one person gets the yes from one side and one person gets the yes from the other side then it would seem they should share the 1/3. Of course all these and similar scenarios should be presented to a rov to pasken.
Chein: I don’t know where in NY you live, but in the chassidishe and yeshiva/livtvishe style communites cash is certainly a very common (if not the most common and most expected) form of compensation. (i think in a situation where the shadchan is a comfortable individual many ppl may choose to by a very nice gift e.g. a expensive piece of jewelery for a lady in lieu of cash). Either way this is a serious monetary halacha shayla and should be dealt with as such.
In the more modern communinties (especially where a lot of dating is not even done via shadchan) or done via vehicles such as SYAS i think token gifts may be more common, but i am not sure.
Why not ask around friends and family as well as 30 different ppl who are involved in shidduchim and report back.
Aries:
Halacha Dictates that each community is governed by it’s custom. If that’s the going rate then that’s the going rate. What i was pointing out is there is no general basis to differentiate between a proffesional or non proffesional (unless their is a specific local custom as such).
Chein:
I think it’s obvious BPT was being facetious. Either way it is incumbent upon the parties to do their research based on their community friends etc. That’s what halacha dictates for all such situations regarding proper compensation to a service provider. There is no doubt that it varies from community to community.
With all due respect to aries. This is a straigtforward halacha question -see rama Choshen Mishpat 185:10 and chochmas shlomo 185;1) Generally speaking, anyone (proffesional or non proffesional) who redds a shidduch and the couple gets engaged is OWED compensation no different that a person who preforms any other service. The rate of compensation will depend on the custom of the places where they live.
Feedback from shadchanim indicate that customary shadchanus is between 1,000-1,500 each side. This is not set in stone. Families that are very well off typically pay more (and this would be a halacha shayla as to whether this would create a actual obligation to do so). I think in out of town communities the rate is a bit lower.
If a shadchan is known to have a set “fee” that is different than the standard rate, then by using them one is reeing to their fee. If a is not known to have a set fee, then that shadchan can not ask/expect more than the going rate. (what is the thresshold for having a known fee, i don’t know, but i do believe it is quite rare for shadchanim to have set fees. The fast majority (and all that i know of) do not have any set fees.
In a situation where it is clear that familes can’t afford the standard rate a shayla should be asked as to whether there is assumed mechila on a portion of shadchanus owed)
If a person (shadchan) explicitly states they are doing it free of charge then of course nothng is owed them (and the shadchan can’t change their mind afterwards).
For some reason there is a belief on the street that compensation to a shadchan is a nice/touching thing to do etc. What we need to realize is that it is a 100% bonafide monetary obligation that (in thoery) a bais din can enforce.
Generally speaking, Shadchanim who don’t receive the standard shadchanus (or anything for that matter) typically turn the other cheek and – though they are not happy – they realize there isn’t much they can do.
Hello99
1. Feel free to challenge
2. For the record Neither I nor any person in their right mind would promote the ideas that you continue incorrectly attribute to the NASI project such as preventing young girs from gettng married. Prohibit shadchanim from redding shidduchim to young girls, and Pressuring boys to date befoe they are ready. It would be nice if you took the time to accurately portray what it is that is being worked on.
3. Re: the rabbonim, if you read the earlier post they where not invited to sign the letter hence no rabbonim who are not R”Y are signed on the letter. Of course they’ved been part of the discussion.
3.you write “If they are not ready, wait. If they are ready, they are anyways dating.” yet you yourself ealrier on this thread claimed otherwise.
4. If you are a philly talmid may i suggest asking Rav Shmuel Kamentky Shlit”a what he thinks about the time the boys spend learning in EY (without even the discussion related to shidduchim).
(and while you are at it you can ask him who is guiding the NASI roject and what he thinks of their judgment. He is well aware and has said so to others. I heard it from people to whom he related it.)
4. I get the feeling this debate it running in circles. As such i think i’m done for now.
Hatzlacha…
Hello99: That’s something i’d be happy to debate you on but more importantly i’ll simply promote the projects being run under the guidance of recognized R”Y.,
(Perhaps you and others may challenge whether the projects are under said guidance, but as i’ve said previously this is not the forum for discussing that). If you/Dr P etc don’t want to believe it, that’s fine.) Feel free to ignore my posts. If you feel so strongly that I pose a threat to the well being of the community by promoting these “harmful” suggestions to the point that you would like to ban me from the CR, please take it up with the mods. One word of caution. A very important person in YW is/was a close talmid of Rav Shmuel Birnbaum Zatzal to whom the shiddcuh crisis was a very dear issue and he is well aware of the project and it’s validity.
Now for the core issues and the suggestions you deem so “harmful”.
1. Encouraging boys (and their mothers) to be open to the idea and thus date girls close to their own age or even slightly older. I can’t imagine you don’t think this is a good idea. To date this has had a big impact on breaking the stigma that made it difficult for slightly older girls to get dates.
2. Encouraging shadchanim to make a extra effort to give attention to girls who didn’t just start dating. Any downside to this?
Now we get to the one point that gets under your skin. Figuring out ways for boys to return from EY perhaps up to 6 months earlier and then they will beging dating whenever they and their rebbiem deem them ready, something that we both agree would be the right time for them to starty and we simply disagree as to whtether that is the present reality or not.
(This is without even mentioning the point that many R”Y and people with knowledge of the facts on the ground feel -totally unrealted to anything shidduch crisis related- that many many of the boys should not go to EY at all or at the most they should not stay as long as they do. For many boys the time in EY is not a time of growth to say the least. They do far better both prior to and post thei time in EY. The upside of maturity etc is far offset by the problems that arise plus the benefit of maturity could be accomplished in a shroter time span then the close to two years that many many boys go for.)
You can disagree of course but this is a course of action being worked on presently. And of course the ultimate questin is a shikul between the problem of creating hundreds and hundreds of older girls vs. the downside (not that i think there really is any) of boys starting the dating process a bit earlier becasue they/their parents etc. deem themselves ready and are not held back articifially. Either way this is a decision that is being made by people who should be making these decisions and i’m simply promoting it.
droid:
as you dug up
“How about NOT rushing to redd them shidduchim to all the 22-23 year old guys?”
That is what i said then and what i continue to advocate now as well. The people REDDING the shidduchim should focus on the girls who didn’t just start dating – as opposed to rushing to set up the girls straight out of sem.
I don’t believe I suggested that the girls themselves or their parents should hold off from dating. (they wouldn’t listen so why waste time with that.)
Do i think it would be good if overall girls began dating chanuka/pesach after sem instead of the minute the got off the boat… yeah i think that would be good – both on the individaul level and on the communal level. However to dade nothing has been done directly on that issue. Having the shadchanim focus on the girls who didin’t just start dating is a indirect effort on that same issue.
The age gap is the main issue that creates the older singles… (see said letter from 70 R”Y) once they reach that point they have much to contend with IN ADDIDITON to the numbers issue.
So long as hello99 doesn’t concur and this point (and of course they don’t need to) i think further debate is fruitless. Either way hello99 should by all means follow their convinction (and guidacne) and do whatever they can….
Hello99:
I think we are discussing two different points. You are focusing on the singles who are older already and what can be done to help them.. I am discussing why they got there in the first place and how to prevent it going further.
regarding some of your specific points.
1. Your are consistently incorrect re: what the letter stated. It clearly stated that AGE GAP is the PRIMARY cause not just that marrying close in age is a good thing. Rather because AGE GAP is the primary cause, therere …..Please read the letter again. If you’d like i’ll repost it.
2. Many many rabbonim where and continue to be consulted with. YOur question is why was the letter only brought to R”Y and not to Rabbonim, and the answer to that is due to the reasons why the letter was created the people involved felt at the time the R”Y where the proper address for that stated goal. It was not because rabbonim where not consulted.
Most importantly: if you feel there are other factors and if you feel you can help in other ways, by all means go for it. I would never tell you not to. There’s plenty of room for all to pitch in. If you think the NASI Project is wasting their time becaues they are focusing on what you consider a minor issue, then by all means do your own thing… They i.e. the R”Y advising them are pretty convinced that they are on to something at the core changing that will make alot of beneficial changes.
Hell099:
Before we discuss specific tactics to alleviate the issue and of course there’s room to discuss debate tweek etc, but first we need to establish IF the issue is a numbers issue.
You seem to strongly feel that there isn’t. If that’s the case then there’s not much to disucss.
If the numbers are the issue then we can discuss how that came about and what can be done about it. Hence the significant distinction between one of your points and the other five.
If we can agree that the numbers are the issue then we can discuss further. If the the numbers aren’t the issue then that disucssiohn is silly.
Do you agree?
This was why I haven’t addressed your other five points
Dr. Pepper:
The person (Pogrow)whose name was mentioned on this website last eve is the acknowledged director. He has written numerous times in the shidduch forum of the Yated under the NASI banner, he has spoken publicly numerous times on the topic including at the National Convention of Agudah Israel. Please don’t confuse a sincere lack on interest in limelight for attempts at hiding behind a cloak of anoynimity.
Once again you are free to your opinion but please be careful with insinustions/accusations. At the very least contact them (as pac did) and have a open conversation. You might actually be pleasantly suprised….
Hell099: Pogrow is the name that was signed on the letter sent out to all mothers of single boys in BMG (i think the “title” was director). He doesn’t attempt to hide his involvement in the project, though he certainly doesn’t look for the limelight as a result of his involvement.
What relevance that has to the issues is beyond me. If you are insinuating impropriety by the fact that the address for donations is him home address, feel free to contact the NASI Project and they will give you a exact accounting of where and how money gets spent. They have nothing to hide.
As I’ve mentioned numerous times. It seems that the elephant in the room is the answer to the follwing question:
Are the numbers of girls who have dated 5/10 years and are still single, relatively equal to the numbers of boys who have dated 5/10 years.
Yes or No
You claim that based on conversations with older girls and shadchanim you are of the firm the belief that the numbers are relatively equal.
Fair enough. I certainly can’t debate the ppl with whom you’ve had conversations. I guess the people who have devoted their time and energy to this issue feel strongly differently (as do the 70 R”Y who signed the letter). I think one thing we agree on is that it would be ridiculous to sign a letter regarding the concept of close in age shidduchim if that is basically irrelevant to the shidduch scene.
APY: “anything else espoused by Nasi and claims to be endorsed by the signers of the letter is not endorsed by my R”Y and in fact, each signatory to the letter would have to be asked if they agree.:
Please indicate ANYTHING other than that which was explicity stated in the letter that anyone claims to have been endorsed by the 70 R”Y. As i have stated MANY times. The specific projects and ideas are not brought before 70 R”Y. There are a few R”Y who advise on the project and those are the ones whose advice is followed. It is simply not realistic to have a project under the oversight of 70 R”Y. The 70 R”Y signed on to the 3 points which are stated in the letter.
Have I ever made any claim otherwise??
As an aside the well recognized names on the letter are well aware of who the R”Y behind the project are.
no one special:
“a lot of girls will not get married is bordering with kefirah r’l”
actually it simply stating the reality. We can bury our heads in the sand and pretend it’s not happening but that won’t solve the problem. HE didn’t create the problem, and though – of course – HE is the kol yachol and can solve it miraculously if he so chooses, it would be prudent for us to not sit around and wait for a miracle, instead we should clean up the mess that we have made.
I wholeheartedly agre with Pac re: the girls in their 30’s and up.
Dr Pepper:
To clarify:
The website was taken down simply because the info was totally outdated (it was supposed to have been taken down months ago) NOT because any info there was incorrect (and they don’t have the people to man the website and thus keep it current.
The info posted was probably from like three years ago and wasn’t updated nor was the website promoted in any which way because the project hasen’t gone the route of websitge to promote the goal of close in age shidducim.
That you don’t have a child in BMG may explain why you didn’t get the mailing, but you certainly can’t insinuate hiding behind any cloak when they reach out to over 1,000 families in shidduchim with contact information. If you would like feel free to contact the NASI Project at [email protected] and i’m sure they’ll send you the exact content of the mailing.
btw: I’m curious, What does your R”Y think of the project in general/in particular?
Does he disagree with the age gap concept? (i assume not becasue you yourself seem to agree with it) what are his issues.
As for the R”Y behind the project, it’s not a secret at all, it’s simply not promoted in public forumes as per the direct request of said R”Y.
Those who need to know are very well aware, (and even those who care enough to know and ask -i.e. Pac- are given the full rundown).
Dr. Pepper,
On the informational letter that was sent to EVERY mother of a single boy in Lakewood there was the name of the director of the NASI Project. I don’t remeber if the most recent mailing has a email address or not, in the past i think it had the email address as well as a cell phone number.
This mailing has been sent out (i think) 4 times already. They send it out shortly before the opening of the freezer.
THAT is hardly hiding behind any cloak of anyonymity.
You frequently mention a website that was put up and to the best of my knowledge had very very little informion other than being a copy of one of their ads. (and i don’t even think it’s active anymore.) You also frequently mention a ad they ran encouraging families with children in shiddcuhim to contribute $50 to help them encourage more close in age shidduchim. That ad was run with the encouragement of the R”Y advising the project. It wasn’t so succesful from a fundraising standpoint so it was discontinued after a a few tries. That was a few years ago.
Dr. P. why not ask Pac what he dug up because he contacted the project after receiving info from this forum on how to contact them. He was also interested in knowing who the specific R”Y advising them are and why it’s not being made public in the YW CR
Either way you are free to have your feelings on the issues and the project. They will continue to do their thing following the guidance of the R”Y advising them and hopefully they will have continued hatzlacha.
Dr. P, I couldn’t agree more. I guess the only thing we disagree on is how to measure results/preformance. I contend that date #4 is a measure of success as opposed to only recognizing engagements.
Do you disagree?
Shlishi: If i may….
this is NOT the topic of the thread nor is digging to find someones identify alowed on the CR (not that I care nor do i think he’ll be succesful).
Where are the mods???
Shlishi: since you are so curious. He has absolutely no idea what AZ stands for because the suggestion hat it stands for A to Z or a significant person in my life is simply wrong.
Now back to the topic…
D”Y: The exact course of action will become known when it is implemented.
Shlishi for your curiousity sake i have no idea who DY is..
D”Y: there are far to many other vaiables to determine that it would make a difference of 3/4 of a year. Either way the R”Y advising the NASI Project have encouraged that course of action and thus they are following up on it.
D”Y: The R”Y directly advising the NASI Project (as well as a bunch of other R”Y) have determined that by and large the majority of the boys stay in EY longer then would be best for their learning. From strictly a shidduch perspective their coming home a few months earlier and thus not artificially putting off their ability to begin dating, would suit each of theirs individual sitatuation.
Btw i have not said anything in terms of aboloshing the freezer. I have simply stated that if boys came back a bit earlier, then instead of them itching to date when the freezer opens they will begin dating when they are ready. (this would likely even enhance their learning). Some would begin the day the freezer opens and some may wait a bit longer. At present -as hello99 pointed out earlier-they essentialy come back ready to date and then they wait.
As for regarding leaving full time learning: It has far more to do with the number of children he has/at what age he has them/what other sources of income etc. Whether he got married at 22.50 or at 23.25 has probably very little to do with how many years he learns in full time kollel after his chassuna.
Hello: I wrote: “I see a healthy sense of individualism” IF boys where able to begin dating at the time that is appropirate for each of them individually. Unfortanetly, as you yourself write, that is sadly not the case.
IF and WHEN boys begin returning from EY slightly earlier, then each and every one of them will be able to begin exactly when they are ready to, not a day earlier- that would be a healthy sense of induvidualism, as opposed to what’s taking place presently.
What I fail to understand is why you equate, returning from EY slightly earlier, with being encouraged to date before they are ready. Each and everyone will begin to date only WHEN they are ready. The reality that when that becomes commonplace, many many perhaps most of the boys would begin before they are doing so now, because as you yourself wrote they really are ready before they are able to begin now. What’s wrong with that.
I said the present reality is NOT in the best interest of the boys individuality.
Case in point being the 400 boys who “happen” to begin dating all on the same day in the winter, and the 400 boys who “happen” to begin dating all on the same day in the summer.
hmmm that sounds like a lot of individuality to me..
Our disagreement is simply whether the present reality is enabling or disabling of the boys individuality. In addition, I don’t subscribe to the notion that the way it is presently means it should/is supposed to be/ or is best for the boys-because it isn’t.
m in israel: I think you didn’t read my posts correctly. I’ll restate it here one more time. I do not mean to imply that this specific issue was brought to 70 R”Y, because it wasn’t. The NASI Project does not bring all its ideas to a board of 70 R”Y before going forward that would simply be almost imposssible and would prevent any progress from being made. However, it doesn’t do anything without direct guidance from the R”Y who run the project.
Hello99: I wholeheartidly agree with your statement “I see a healthy sense of individualism where each person does approximately what he estimates to be appropriate to the level of his maturity.”
we simply disagree as to whether that is taking place presently now or not.
as for you reassurance level… i can’t help that. Feel free to contact the NASI project directly if you want more specific info. One thing i will say is that you seem way to comfortable with the unchanged reality… THAT is something I (and much more importantly) the people on the ground who are working to help the girls are NOT comfortable with the unchanged reality.
To qoute Einstein: the definition of insanity is to do the same thing again and again and expect different results.
What you refer to as the “unchanged reality” has played a big part in creating the disastrous sistuation we presently find ourselves in. Why you are so convinced that the reality has to be, shouldn’t change, and is the best interest of the parties, is slightly beyond me and frankly many many R”Y disagree.
and one additonal point, I wouldn’t exactly call boys returning from EY 6 months earlier on average and/or begining the dating process closer to 22 than to 23 a “radical change”. It’s just really not radical at all.
Unfortantely for you pac you aren’t on a need to know basis and the R”Y feel that you don’t need to know.
you can contact NASI at [email protected] i’m sure they will be happy to help you.