snjn:

In your theory that the boys stick around for the next year. Can you imaginge the competition of the boys for those girs. becuae every year there are new boys as well. the guys who stick around etc. would face fierce competiton from al the new boys.

so how is it that after three years of dating the boys are by and large married and many many girls stay single

Please explain that phenomana (unless you don’t believe it to be true).

Snjn: your suggestion about boys looking to be supported, or in other words girls looking for those kinds of boys being at a bigger disadvantage actaully isn’t suppported by the data on the ground. According to that theory, the more yeshivish the commuinity is the worse the problem should be- correct?

well guess what, It’s not true. mMnch on that a bit..

Rc: i said you are incorrect as to the cause. what you descrie is the effect. When after a few years the boys are married and girls (who strated dating at that same time) are still around then we have the crisis rearing it’s head in real time.

I am simply foucsing on the cause becasue understanding that is the key to solving the problem.

or in other words, why didn’t all or almost all the girls get married at 19. Why are some many girls turning 22 and still not married. (and do you really think that 21 year old girls will only marry a 23 year old but not a 24 year old??)

more so, I’d hate to be a 24 or 25 year old guy. I mean the girls ONLY want 23 year olds. My gosh, poor 24/25 year old guy, he can’t buy a date (according to your theory.).

Rc: i apologize, but as i wrote before, is accurate, you are incorrect. It’s true that a 23 year old can date a 19/20/21/22/23 etc, but that’s NOT the cause that’s simply a result.

to solve a problem, you need to get at the cause, without that it’s hopeless.

Sushe: Pleaure to interact with someon who gets it!

the answer to your question:

If 50 or 100 girls join the program, there certainly is no danger that non participants will be left in the cold. Shadchnim need to focus on far more than 50/100 girls.

if 500 1000 girls join the program, then that is certainly a reality.

There is only one reason why 500/1000 girls will join and stay in the program….

That reason is RESULTS RESULTS RESULTS

as measured by huge numbers of dates and weddings for these girls.

If that happens,

yeah i think it will be established that it’s worthwhile for every girl to join the program, wouldn’t you??

and if we get to that point and there are still girls who can’t afford it….. there is a simple solution for that as well.

cross that bridge if/when iy”h it gets there….

snjn: because if it’s about priorities then there should be rougthly the same number of older single guys as there are older single girls.

the girls who aren’t pretty etc. and the guys who insist on pretty…

HOWEVER, the guys seem to all be getting married.

Please explain that phenomana….

is it true that guys insist on pretty etc. perhaps. Does that casue the crisis… NO, that simply determines which girls get stuck not how many

(i apologize if i sound like a broken tape recordet, i’ve been repeating this same idea for over four years now….)

or do you really think that in the non chassidishe communites there are roughtly the same number of older single guys as older single girls…

for the purposes of this discussion the term older means they have been dating more than five years. (not that i really think that should be considered older, but simply becuae we need to have a working definition of what we are discussing.

DY: thanks

Zaidy: Boys date the girls they are redd to. If they are redd to girls who are 19/20 that’s who they will marry. if they are redd to girls who are 22/23 then that’s who they will marry.

it’s not rocket science.

Sushe well done: as for the girls who don’t join, it was explained at length numberous times why they won’t be hurt. if it is so wildly succesful as measured by massive nubmers of dates and wedding as to create a situation where girls not on the list might be hert, they you can be sure they will join.

We still have a ways to go to get there.

Hopefully it will be so succesful as to create that problem.

Medium:

“AZ, I like the old fashioned way:”

Einstein:

Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results.

APY: Time will tell won’t it?? Why argue theory, lets allow the results to speak for themsevles.. If you’d like i’ll explian how this will continute to close the age gap in fact it’s been explained numberous times in the very thread (i think).

Midwest:

1. Sure I remeber that one, and they would continue to write it (if it was still true), alas the papers got afraid and wouldn’t print it in the ad because of people like yourself. Please don’t accuse the project of having the same lack of backbone that the papers do.

2. Not nearly the shalom bayis issues that are caused by having girls at home who are petrified of never getting married.

3. Forbid? please indicate where that is stated ANYWHERE?????

4. You finally asked the question. How does this program help alleviate the crisis. Nice. Why don’t you just focus on that and once you understand that, you’ll understand it a whole lot better.

Rembeber the NASI Project aren’t shadchanim and benefit nothing by setting up a program with “exorbitant” rates. So why do YOU think they did it?? Hint, the answer is in the CR many times and was printed at length in the papers.

5. “And finally”, you now have expressed. You don’t believe the reality of the shiddcuh crisis. You seem to believe that there are roughly the same amount of older single guys as older single girls… As i wrote earlier everyone is entitled to their own opinion, not their own facts…

when you are prepared to face the reality of the crisis and realize that Hashem didn’t cause it he simply allowed us to make it happen i think you will then think differently.

It was precisely for people like yourselves that there was a urgent need to take out a ad that stated

10% of this years graduating class may rc”l never get married.

Peoples heads at the time were in the sand. they were in denial. It seems like some people still are.

As a father of 6 girls i would think you would be a person who is best served by making sure you understand the sugya AD HASOOF and do anything and everything you can to alleviate it as quickly as possible.

Have you ever thought of contacting the project and sharing your thought and feelings with them directly.

You might be presently suprised.

As a side note: you should know that people who have given of themselves (and i don’t mean money) b’lev u’vinefesh to assist in various ways to alleviate the crisis have seen tremendous hatzlacha with their own kids shidduchim. It’s simply the emes pshat in

“hamispalel b’ad chaveiyro v’hu tzorich l’oso davar”. Not a gimmick of trading names on a tehillim list with people you don’t know and don’t have any feeling for, but getting down and dirty to help others in the same situation.

The project doesn’t publicize this because they aren’t in the business of “hawking segulos” but know that it works and chazal told us that it does.

Feel free to contact the project to learn more about the sugya and how you can be of assistance to the project or to your midwestern conmmunity.

medium: so perhpas you like the NASI Programs active in various communites across the country….

100/400….

oh if you knew the flak they got when they started those….

yes here in this very same holy CR….

Medium: The people running and more importantly the people advising the program aren’t running for office.

As I wrote earlier, they really had zero plans and felt little need to do what was published in today’s papers. A decision was then made that perhaps there would be girls who would be helped and would feel more comfortable if they published a few names of well recognized rabbonim and R”Y who endorsed the program so they did it.

They didn’t do it because they felt any need to validate the program, and they certainly didn’t do it to make anyone in the YWCR happy.

Midwestern/APY:

If i can confuse you with some facts.

1. This didn’t all start in October. This all started 4+ years ago

2. The 70 R”Y never signed on to anything NASI did, many of them probably never even heard of NASI (certainly at the time that they signed the letter they hadn’t). In this very forum I repeatedly stated that NASI has NEVER said in any form or fashion that the letter from the 70 R”Y supports any specific action plan. All i have stated in the names of the 70 R”Y is exactly what they singed on to. If you’d like i’ll cut and paste the exact letter they signed on to.

Each person whose name appears on this letter was explained ALL the details of the program, EG ages, dollar amounts etc. Their questions were answered and they were asked if their name could appear in the manner it was.

Funniest thing is that on the first letter with 70 signators there were people who asked and what about this one, and what about that one….

You can believe or deny the following statment, but for the record regarding this program if there was interest in investing time there could have been tens and tens of names on this letter as well. However the people invovled in running this specific program saw very little need in doing so and had no interest in investing the 6 months that the last letter took.

If some ywcr members aren’t happy so be it…

APY: simply amazing….

First the complaint was why are there no names endorsing the program.

Now the complaint is why aren’t there 70 names endorsing the program.

I guess some people just like to complain…

First lets’ get some facts stratight (I assume you aren’t Palestinian 🙂

There was NEVER a NASI ad about any program with 70 R”Y names on it. There was a Kol Korei letter from 70 R”Y regarding the shidduch crisis and AGE GAP that didn’t mention anything about NASI nor anything about any specific program. For all anyone knows NASI wasn’t even involved in putting togetehr that letter.

That point notwithstanding…

The letter for 70 had a specific goal in mind and to that end the decision was made to have 70 R”Y sign the (historic) letter) It took well over 6 months to put together. The people involved in running this specifc program didn’t and don’t feel the need to have 70 R”Y endorse this specific program.

For the record, the people running and advising the program didn’t really care all that much about having any Rabbonim and R”Y’s names on the program in a public manner as is evident from their launching it without any names. It was simply done now for the benefit of the public to be more comfortable with the program.

If you feel that you need 70 names endorsing this program, then by all means don’t join.

As an aside there are numberous other Rabboinim and R”Y who were spoken to and endorsed the program and all the details, but for various reasons they dind’t want their name in print for reasons such as, they don’t want the hassle of people coming over to them to ask them about it, as a matter of policy they never sign or put their names on these kinds of things, they understnad that the initial reaction could cause discomfort to some young women as such althought they endorse the progarm they’d rather not have their name on it in a public manner. etc etc.

Medium: To each their own….. as the saying goes, everyone is untitled to their own opinion, only the Palestinians (it seems) are entitled to their own set of facts…

Here is the full text of the ad

Update On The

GROUND BREAKING SHIDDUCH PROGRAM

1. Over 80 approved shadchanim have been sent contracts to join the project. There is a strict confidentiality provision and penalty in the shadchan’s contract, to ensure that the information of who is on the list of participants will not be divulged.

2. The firm Hirsch, Oelbaum, Bram, Hanover, & Lisker has been retained to provide audit and prepare year end statements. This will ensure proper security of all the Shadchan Project monies. Their reports will be of public record and will be made available upon request.

3. Contracts have been sent to all participants who have asked to join the program.

4. The contract allows for a sponsor to sign up their relative and/or friend. Many have done so already.

Please note: The program is an open program, and people can join at any time.

For information regarding joining the list or how to register as a shadchan please email [email protected]

This program is endorsed by the following Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva

Rav Moshe Brown Shlita (Far Rockaway)

Rav Kalman Epstein Shlita (Queens)

Rav Yaakov Forcheimer Shlita (Lakewood)

Rav Shmuel Fuerst Shlita (Chicago)

Rav Moshe Mordechai Lowi Shlita (Toronto)

Rav Yaakov Neuberger Shlita (Teaneck)

Rav Shlomo Feivel Schustal Shlita (Brooklyn)

Rav Dovid Weinberger Shlita (Lawrence)

Rav Herschel Welcher Shlita (Queens)

Finally….

From the NASI Project

In tomorrow’s papers, a ad regarding the ground breaking shidduch program will list names of Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva who endorse this specific program.

passfan: these are all legitimate questions that need to be addressed to a competent halachic authority familiar with this specific area of halacha. Might i suggest not simply asking ones LOR. These are detailed choshen mishpat shaylos and need to be treated as such.

I think we all agree this is not the forum (and I am most definately NOT qualified) to answer such detailed questions.

All I would like to accomplish is to educate that your very valid questions are no different when relating to shadcnim as they would be to a private math tutor, a plumber, electrician or any service provider or broker who does a job without having a pre-arranged agreed upon fee.

These things happen every day (like a babysitter for example), and they need to presented to a qualified authority who is familiar in this area of halacha.

passfan: That’s a question you would need to ask a specific shadchan in a specirfic instantce, but these do occur. Feelings are hard to measure and understand but if someone has a tayna and it’s somewhat justified its not such a great thing.

Here’s one such example. Suppose you spent 3 years working very very hard for a specific single who didn’t have a easy time in shidduchim. Your were succesful and made their shidduch after putting in huge huge amount of effort. They compensate you at the low end of the shadchanus range (say 1,000 and the upper end is 1500 or whatever it might be) and then they go ahead and make a extremely lavish vort or wedding. I could see a shadchan being a bit hurt.

Spend freely on everything else but skimp on the shadchan, that might be hurtful… and perhaps the hurt would be somewhat justified

(for the record as i’ve said numerous times, i’m not a shadchan)

Aries:

Shulchan Aruch disagrees with your points.

There is no difference between shadchanim and any other services provided. If you would like i will qoute you chapter and verse from the shuldchan aruch.

here’s a start (i just pulled this off a website called Businesshalacha.com and did a search using the word shadchanus)

???? ??????

??”? ??”? ??”? ??’ ?”? ???’ ?”? ?

????? ???”? ??”? ??’ ?”? ?”? ??”? ?

??”? ??’ ??”? ???’ ?’ ?

??”? ??’ ??”? ???’ ?’ ????’ ?’ ?

Paying a dollar certainly does NOT fulfill the halchachic obligation any more that it would if a electircian came by to fix your light fixture and didn’t qoute a price. Does that depend on BP or FR. 13th ave or Flatbush. That is certainly a legitimate question that should be answered by a competent posek in these matters. It is not specifically related to shadchanus anymore than it is realted to any other service provider who didn’t make a clear agreement prior to providing the service.

Regarding paying before the chassuna or afterwards, with my deepest sympathies to “bad omens” they generally don’t consitute codified halacha. If one would like to do so, they by all means may. However unless that is the community custom it can not be enforced. If a shadchan would demand payment before the chassuna but no clear custom has been established, then the chosson/Kallah sides would be (to the best of my understnading) in their halachic right, for waiting until after the chassuna to pay.

This actually has potential ramifications for scenarios when a shidduch breaks off. Look in shulchan and commentators where this is disucssed.

This all being said, For what it’s worth I personally do think it is apporpriate to give the shadchan commesurate shadchanus shortly after the engagment if not at the actaul engagment party. Nothing to do with bad omens, but everything to do with the proper way to express ones deepest appreciation for bringing themsleves or their child to this wonderful stage in life.

aries: Perhaps your aren’t familir with the typical style of how shadchanim operate. You may be uncomfortable with it, but the vast vast majority of shadchanim including the most prolific in the country have never told anyone any rate for a completed shidduch. People give them what they want.

That doesn’t change the halachic obligation for the parties to compensate the shadchan according to community norms. Perhaps you would like to instite a societal change whereby shadchanim stated up front what thier rates were, hwoever the present situation being what it is, the parties are obligated to compensate them accordingly. Furthermore, unless there is a structure, whereby non proffesional shadchanim get compensated different than proffesional shadchanim, the requirement would be to compensate non prossionals the same as proffesonals.

As for you comment re: the shadhan “must get paid before the chuppah”. I don’t believe that to be halachically correct. When one needs to pay the shadchan is at the time shadchanus is due-no a day earlier, and one shouldn’t pay a day later- when that date is will also depend on community norms. Some place the stlye is to pay after engagement and some places the stle is to pay after the wedding. Under the present system for shadchanus, the halachos of compensating shadchanim are part and parcel for the halachos of paying “kablonim” – workers who get paid for completing a job- and thus follow those guidlines.

Dash: To the best of my knowledge, (although i fully agree that the more difficult a shidduch or the older the parites in question, the more one should compensate the shadhcan) being that that is not stadard practice – and compnesation for workers commisioned or otherwise where no price has been set in advance is governed by societal norms – thus halacha doesn’t require it.

midwest: There has never been anything published in NASI”s name with signatures of R”Y attached. That is to say NASI has purposely not published in any public format the names of the Rabbonim and R”Y who support, endorse and advise their specific course of action. (for the record, -and for cr memeber ISA – people who contact the program are welcome to the information, and especially people who are on a “need to know” basis, to bad the anonymous CR chevra doesn’t make the cut). Please do NOT imply that NASI used the 70 R”Y support any of their inittives. That is simply false and it’s not like there has ever been any kind of action by NASI that could even remotly lead to that mistake.

All that NASI ever said in the names of the 70 R”Y was exactly what they themselves stated in their own handwirting. That letter was for all intents and purposes unrelated to the NASI Project and many of the people who signed the letter (at that time) probably never heard of the NASI Project. It wasn’t and isn’t meant to be a endorsement of any specific course of action that NASI has or will do, and no one ever claimed that it is.

It is a letter stating exactly what it stated.

Your insinusation that NASI used that letter as support for it’s specific programs, and your subsequent challenge that a R”Y who signed did or doesn’t follow a specific program is irrlevant and disingenuos at best.

APY: Your previous post is inaccurate and disengenous.

The ONLY thing that was ever said in the name of 70 R”Y is EXACTLY what was published in their name with their very own signatures.

For this exact reason, the letter from 70 R”Y dind’t say ANYTHING about ANY specific programs and it did NOT mention NASI by name simply because no one has or ever will claim that the 70 R”Y signed on to anything other than exactly what they signed.

ALL NASI has ever stated in the name of 70 R”Y is exactly what they themselves stated.

For you to imply otherwise is simply inacurate (at best).

Please go back to the Rosh Yeshiva with whom you are so close, please bring him the original letter with his signature and simply ask him did he sign it or not. (if you would like a copy of the original letter please contact the project, i’m sure they’ll provide it to you).

If he did – then you owe NASI a apology.

We await your response.

Rc: That will all be part of the public record where and for what every penny is spent.

An example of where that fee would go for is to help cover costs of the advertising of this new project. To date, it would take close to 20 weddings of girls (aside from the first 50 to sign up) to cover the costs of the ads run so far.

If you would like to donate that money, I’m sure the program would be more than happy to return the $500 for the first 20 girls who get married who aren’t part of the first 50 on the list.

Interested?

CB: Arbitrators are in the contract, signers will be available to any of the girls who ask.

CB: perhaps you failed to read the item 1. of the earlier post that a well known respected and reputable firm is putting their name behind the audit and security of the money and making the books available. I would think that that should be a fairly good way to assuage any questions wouldn’t you? I actually think that’s even better then putting name(s) of R”Y on letterhead who in all likelyhood in most organizations don’t analyze and review every check written and every deposit made.

CB: I think NASI would also urge eveyone who considers joining to read everything clearly and make sure they are 100% comfortable with the way things are being run.

Midwest: What i wrote was that if a individual was researching whether to join or not, i would think that the prudent question to ask is how many shadchanim have joined, not how many girls. If anything, the more girls the “worse” it is for a individual girl, whereas the more shadchanim the better it is.

rc:

the pain you feel as a mother of a single girl is evident. However, you state that “but NOW everyone is having difficulties getting a yes from anyone under any circumstances.”

even you must admit that can’t be accurate. surely boys have dates and are getting married to girls.

I think if you understood the age gap concept a bit better and how it affects the dating scene, you would feel a bit more comfortable with the activities of the NASI Project.

Are Mothers of girls desperate – many certainly are.

Is NASI taking advantage- most certainly not.

NASI themselves aren’t even shadchanim and there is no such thing as “NASI Shadchanim”. (unless anyone from the public who joins their projects is called a nasi shadchan???)

In fact, the ongoing and hopefully continued success of their varied efforts will alleviate the problem substantially and thus ease the desperation of the mothers.

as promised. What you’ve been waiting for…

From NASI

UPDATE ON THE

GROUND BREAKING SHIDDUCH PROJECT

The following is an overview of the security procedures and oversight being instituted by the NASI shidduch project:

1. The firm Hirsch, Oelbaum, Bram, Hanover, & Lisker has been retained to set up accounting security procedures as well to provide ongoing oversight, audit and prepare year end statements. Their reports will be of public record and available upon request.

2. All monies received will be deposited into an account named NASI Shadchan fund (this will be verifiable by each participant).

3. Withdrawals from the fund will require two signatures, one from a list of administrative personnel, Group A, and one from Group B, which consists of a few well known Roshei Yeshiva.

4. A contract outlining the rights and obligations of the parties has been drafted by a lawyer and reviewed by dayanim. This contract will be signed by both NASI and the participant.

In addition a contract outlining the relationship between NASI and participating shadchanim has been drafted and will be signed by both NASI and the participating shadchan.

5. The following language (or its equivalent) will appear in the contract between NASI and each individual participant:

Withdrawals from NASI Shadchan fund will be permitted only for the following purposes:

A. To pass money along to a shadchan after the wedding in the event of a completed shidduch .

B. To pass along $500 administrative fee to NASI after the wedding in event of completed shidduch.

C. To return monies to a participant upon their request.

D. Any withdrawals for any other purpose will be considered willful misconduct on the part of NASI.

6. Participants will be afforded the opportunity to send copies of their signed contracts and cancelled checks directly to the firm of Hirsch Oelbaum thus ensuring that all monies sent to NASI are accounted for.

Aries: If you would like to contact me via yeshiva world or even via the shidduch project, I would be glad to work with you to bring real effective change to this terrible situation. (I am admitedlly very very unfamiliar with the specifics and don’t know 1/100th of what you do, but i think i could be of help in bringing about the changes you suggest.)

If I was you I wouldn’t waste my time trying to get Agudah to be at the forefront of this issue but i’m not going to discuss this point in this forum.

This appears in today’s papers:

From NASI:

UPDATE-ATTENTION SHADCHANIM

(full time, part time, dabblers)

You are cordially invited to join

the Ground Breaking Shidduch Program

The shadchanus money is only for shadchanim who are registered with this program. If a non -registered shadchan makes the shidduch, the money will be returned and the family will give shadchanus as they see fit. For more details, please email [email protected] .

We look forward to hearing from anyone who makes shidduchim professionally or otherwise!

In addition All registered shadchanim will be invited to join the numerous NASI programs active in communities around the country, including: Monsey, Montreal, Toronto, Chicago, Kew Gardens, Prospect Park HS, Machon 2004. These local programs appreciate and compensate shadchanim for their efforts on behalf of young women who have been dating for a number of years even if those efforts do not result in a completed shidduch.

Far Vos:

“At least according to NASI, it seems pretty clear that 22+ is “older”. That is their definition”

Incorrect (you’ll probably say… ” “ay” they started the program for girls 22+….” that is simply a statement of total lack of undestanding of the situation, the project in general, and this program in particular.

DY feel free to explain.

“NASI’s idea will work only if EVERY person marries someone born in the exact same year.”

Incorrect

DY feel free to explain

humble suggestion: prior to offering a “authorotative” opinion on the issue why not first spend some time understanding the issue. Or you could contact NASI and they’d be glad to exlain it to you patiently.

DY:

Becuase it’s possible that two sisters will get engaged/married at around the same time. Unlikely that three sisters would get engaged/married at the same time.