mordern: Great Question. So why do you think NASI is doing it. Not much in for themselves…..

MSS: i’ve noticed you didn’t answer my question.

oomis:

Your post was so comical i had to respond.

1. Nice of you to tell the gedolim what to do.

2. I don’t think there’s a shadchan in the world who makes 5 hard cases a year. And if the did it one year they certainly aren’t able to do it on a consistent basis. And you want that to become statndard practice for ALL shachanim- or else! It’s attitudes like these from people who don’t understand the shidduch/shadchan process that gives shadchanim a bad rap. Maybe try you hand a bit and you’ll sing a different tune

3. “the rabbonim should declare that every shidduch made l’sheim mitzvah gets a sachar in olam haba, whereas evey shidduch made for business purposes gets no more sachar than does working at ANY occupation for a living.”

a. I think they should include Rabbeim, Rabbonim mohalim etc. in this declaration. After all they get paid salaries. What a despicable group. Why can’t they do it lsheim shamayim????

b. for the record, shadchnus money is kosher gelt, the story is told that that chasam sofer would use shadchanus money to buy his esrog. Money paid to rebbeim and mohelim is very questionable as al pi strict halacha one is NOT allowed to receive payment for these services.

To be clear i am not looking to in anyway shape or form to take away what rebbeim rabbonim mohelim etc. deserve and of course for whatever reasons it is stadards practive. I’m just pointing out the warped sense or apporpriatiness that is clear in your post. But don’t feel bad unfortanetly you have lots of company….

MSS:

so now we get to the bottom of the issue. You agree to the concpet. You agree that redding shidduchim gets significantly more difficult and the shadchanim deserve to be more fairly compensated the older the sinlges are, and that such a system has the potnential to generate far more attention for young women who didn’t just start dating.

so your entire beef with this specific project is why does everyone need to “prepay” is that the toatlity of your complaint?

Is that what it’s about?

GAW: In what way is the gateways program structured to help the older girls.

I’d love to hear?

rc: “(meaning they no more have guys than girls; mothers do)”

Perhaps i’m missing something, but what does that sentence mean?

As an aside, NASI hasn’t doesn’t and isn’t hiring any shadchanim. Shadchanim who elect to be part of this program are welcome to redd shidduchim to anyone they want whether the girl is a participant in this program or not.

I’m not sure i understnad your point.

If your poiont is that as a result of this program many more shadchanim will pay muc more attention to young women who are 22 and up…

yeah that’s the primary goal of the progam and in the big picture that would be a very positive developement.

Halvai it should be so succesful

GAW- They are, what makes you think that they aren’t???

As i’ve posted numberouls times. This new program isn’t the first thing they’ve done, and it’s not the last. Its not even the most important. IT’s simply a piece in a big puzzle.

The big prize is the necessary structural changes. Hopefully one day that will happen.

btw i’m curiouls what should i see by gateways connections, other than a group of shadchanim (some on salaries some volunteers), of which there are numbeous such organizations Kesher, shhefa links, binyan, yu conncets to name a few off the top of my head.

Is Gateways doing something specific regarding the age gap that i missed or have they indentified some other root casue of the crisis that they are out to address? Please educate me, i’m very very interested.

rc- “Nasi non helpful shadchanim”

1. there is no such thing as a nasi shadchan unless you are reffering to the shadhcanim who in the last few weeks joined this new program. Prior to this there never existed a concept of a nasi shadchan as nasi isn’t a group of shadchanim. As such i’m not quite sure how you pass judgment on something that isn’t even active.

2. It seems like you still fail to understand why why why the girls are at a disadvantage. Until you undersatnd that, there’s little chance for you to understand why closing the age gap is helpful. Getting back to shadchanim faster won’t help an iota. It is the equivalent of playing the music faster in this cruel game of musical chairs.

3. something IS very seriously wrong. when that gets fixed, most of the other problems in the shidduch system will get fixed as well.

MSS: Hard for me to understand why you consider this paying, begging for attention. Perhaps it’s attitudes such as yours that are humiliating to the singles.

The reality that redding shidduchim takes tremendous amounts of time and effort and coming up with a fair way of compensationg those who are ready to ut in the effort is far from humilating. Is it humilating to pay for clothes we wear. is it humilating to pay for the homes we live in. why is it humilating to pay the people who spend time and energy to get us to the chuppah. The only question is figuring out the effective and accurate cost for such a invaluable service. The fact that it hasn’t been done this way, shouldn’t stop anyone, especially since the old system contributed to the tragic sitaution we presently find ourselves in.

If you want to view it as paying, begging, humilating… that’s your choice, but it’s certainly NOT reality.

The best b’derech hateva histadlus one can do is that which will generate dates for themselves. The jury is out whether this new program will accomplish that, but unless you decide it’s humiltating it isn’t.

And if it accomplishes it, then it is certainly well worth it…..

oh did i forget to mention, we still haven’t seen any other sniffs of a plan from anyone anywhere…

just saying…. and i’d bet that you weren’t gung who on the 100/400 program when it first started either….

MSS: the only people who would have been thrilled would be those ten shadchanim.

That method has been tried tested and proven to…..

FAIL….

But if you’d like to try that route… by all means go for it!!!!

What NASI did do is a far more cost effectvie and has produced far better results and that is work with numeroud communities to compensate shadchanim (not just a special ten) set up dates for older girls…..

good thing they didn’t listen to the cr naysayers…

NASI has always been about results, nothing more and nothing less.

They will be happy to return anyones money at anytime as per the contract the participnats signed. Yes the money is under FDIC insuracne.

One thing NASI was michadesh it that results should be measeured by dates set up for girls who didn’t just start dating and not only be measuere by engagements.

Remember the 100/400 project..

Shadchanim don’t make engagement, HE does, shadchanim biderech hateva can set up dates… enougth dates for girls who didn’t just start dating and there will be more such marriages,,, and that is actaully the thinking behind this new program as well.

MSS: To the best of my knowledge no one has has in any which way pressured or even encouraged any individuals to join, NASI hs simply set up a program that is a open offer to anyone who would like to participate in it?

Have you seen/heard/read anything different??

As an aside, i am aware of a few rabbonim who support the program but for variouls reasons choose not to put their name. I am unaware of any rabbonim who unequivocally stated that the program should not be run. (that doesn’t mean they don’t exist, there are frequently numberous legitimate opinions on any issue, but i’ve yet to be made aware of a Rov/R”Y who was explained the program and said, nope, don’t do it. In fact one of the rabbonim whose name actually ppears was someone who intially told a shadchan not to join when he first heard about it. He didn’t like the concept. He is now one of the few names on the ad. This came to light when a shadchan initially declined to join the program as per their rov’s advice and then after seeing the ad, the shadchan got back in touch with their rov becaue they were sure there was a mistake in the ad………..and lo and behold… the shadchan was encouraged to do join by the same rov…)

You state hundreds… interesting… or do you simply meant that there are hundreds whose name don’t appear….

judging by the number of people who have a title Rabbi in the phone book you should have written thousands and thousands…

MSS: every progarm and i mean EVERY program the nasi project started since their inception met with naysayers such as yourself. Epsecially in this fourm. -do you remeber the reatcion ppl had to the concept of appreciating, and compensating for dates 11/400 even if the couple didn’t gt engaged.

At yet you say you are/were a big fan of the project until this new program.

As the saying goes,

Mah she’lo yaaseh haseiychel, yaaseh haziman,

I”m sure that will be true regrading your feelings about this new program as well.

APY: I”m not quite sure what change you are looking for. So far plenty of you women have gladly signed up. The program will be active next friday, and then the results will be the measure by which the program will be judged. If your concern is the public percepionof the progman in the CR, I don’t think the people involved in running and advising the progam care of that much for this forum.

My apologies for bursting anyones buble.

oomis: NO IT’S NOT SEMANTICS

you mamash don’t get it.

it all boils down to the ages at which point boys and girls start dating and who they date.

that is NOT determined by HIM nor is it decreed by HIM.

Why do you insist that HE created the probelm.

Let’s take responsibility for our actions, and then we can hope to solve it going further…

We decided when boys should begin dating and thus we decided that there shouldn’t be enough boys for the girls.

For the same reason WE are capable or solving the tragedy…

let’s get to work…

MSS: Results results results…

If the results of your new cold remedy is a sore nose than i think Einstein would suggest you try look for an alternative.

If the result of the NASI Project to date has been

widespread awareness as to the nature of the problem,(even if some cr folks still don’t get it).

breaking of the stigma that prevented young men from considereing shidduchim with young women thier own age or slightly onlder than them,

activating many community wide programs that have successfully generated significantly added shidduch attention for young women who didn’t just start dating,

and most importanly researching ways to implement minor changes that could have major impact on the crisis in a big way….

despite having to fight the naysayers every step and every turn….

then yeah i think Einstein would approve.

On a tactical level your suggestion is actually comical.

1. The wedding takanos (which we all know has been only moderately succesful if that and greatly served to undermine the respect that the community had vis a vis kol koreis and the like and in addition for all intents and purposes served as teh death blow of ever trying such tactics again) was going to serve as the model upon which some new kollel support takanah.- That’s inherently ridiculous.

2. That new takana would endanger the kolel system because for some magical reason such a takana would be succesful and thus endanger the kollel system.- Guess they didn’t know about einstein’s theory.

3. Enter the NASI Project that via marketing pre-empts and prevents any success of said kollel support takanah.

wow, someone has been reading to much Clancy, Baldachi etc.

Squeak: being that your are perhaps the resident genius of the CR where on earth did this post come from???????

Any way you slice many many young women do not get married immediately. In fact there is a strong argument to be made that the donwside that some suggest of girls not getting married immedaiteyl (if there is one) is actually mitigated if it becomes more commonplace.

so long as the expectation is that every girl get married at 19, a young woman at 20/21 may be made to feel (and it’s totally ridiculous) like an outcast.

if/when it’s socially accepted for young women to not get married first thing off the boat, then the stregnth in numbers will actually be beneficial to the individuals who dont’ gett married immediately.

To solve crisis we don’t need wholesale changes, simly a shift of the percentages, If (and these numbers are absolutely arbitraty) at present 60% of young women get married at 19, and some changes take hold to 40% get married at 19, that will be very very beneficial on the macro level.

whatever the 40% are doing in the present system, the 60% (or maybe more) will do in the new system.

APY: Go for it. Hatzlacha in making it happen en masse…

I’m sure that it’s not….

HE didn’t create any more girls than boys (actually, there are slightly more jewish males born each year than jewish females).

WE created the 100/150 not HIM…

oomis:

“It was Hashem who created 50 more girls than boy”

um, not it wasn’t….

Rc:

please clarify which of the 13 basic principles of jewsih faith the following eihter of the following two statments violate

1. there are more jewish children in 1st grade than in 5th grade

2. Girls begin dating at 19, boys at 22/23

To the best of my knowledge neither of those statements constitute Kefira. these two statements dictate tha unless we change something we will continue to have hundreds and hundreds of older single girls.

Since it’s unlikely that we will change the bracha of a growing population, the most reasonable course of action is to work on the second statment and see what could be done about that.

Is this kefira????

Eliezer: I have lost bitachon??? How would you know that?? I have simply stated we need to get to work fast and hard because to sit back and expect it to sovle itslef is begeder relying on a neis which we are not allowed to do. If we allow the present situation to continue without making changes then the present reality will b’derech hateva continue.

If you ask, Is it solvable? the anser is ABSOLUTELY YES YES YES. But it won’t happen by itself….. Many solutions have been proposed in this vary forum and much progress has already been made, despite constant objection at every step of the way from misguided people who would prefer to let things just fix themselves….

Elizer,

Please tell that to the hundreds and hundreds of girls who are well past 30 and birerech hateva they can’t all get married…

Hashem allows us to mess up, and that’s exactly what we have done. Pretneding it’s not so will not make it go away.

I never said they couldn’t have gotten married in the past, i simply stated that in the present reality it’s not going to happen. (unless by some miracle 24 year old guys start marrying 34 year old young women.)

HASHEM got it right, but we messed up and are continuing to do so, though b’chasdei hashem some changes have begun to take root.

Biderech Hateva as long as the cherem dirabeinu gershoom is in effect, if there are 100 guys and 150 girls then 50 can’t get married.

It wasn’t Hashem who created this inequity of numbers, it’s us….

Zukes: HOw i wish you were right…. unfortanetly you are terrible misguided.

Please tell the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of not so young women who are having a terrible time in shidduchim and can’t get a date, that it’s a crisis becasue we make it a crisis.

Last I checked, having massive numbers of older single girls facing the reality that many of them will never marry is a TRAGEDY and not a crisis and certainly not a figment of the imagination.

snjn: Poor girls/fat girls etc getting left behind is a result of the numbers not a result of attitudes.

I the poor girls/fat girls got married then other girls would get stuck. That what happends when the pool of available girls is far larger then the pool of available boys.

HOw many get stuck is a result of numbers

Which specific girls get stuck will be a result of numberouls factors and attitudes, but in the macro picture it’s highly irrelevant.

YW MOD- There is no little data to support that the crisis is worse in the long term kollel yeshivish community than in other communities.

Eliezer:

I will repeat a familiar qoute of einstein

Insanity is to do the same thing again and again and expect different results.

you would like for there to be no communal effort and no effort at large to deal with a indentified cause of the shidduch crisis. Let every person fend for themselves and wish the problem away….

Hey wait isn’t that what we were doing when we got ourselves into this mess?

Why do you think that by going back to that method will solve it?

(as an aside, i assume you would like to not only shut down the NASI Project, but all the other wonderful projects going on such as communites who “gasp” hire a shadchan to assist their local young women (LA, CHicago, Detroit, Baltimore, and others), as well as numerous active organziations

Binyan Adei Ad

Kesher,

Sheefa Links,

Yu Connects,

Gateways

SYAS

and many others….

I mean in Europe they didn’t do that????

now for some specific points:

I will argue, that our religion and mesorah require of us, that ANY and EVERY need that is indentified and can be alleviated or solved through individual or communal activism should be pursued (of course under the guidance of proper people who are of the stature to give such guidance.)

People and commuities who sit back and don’t do what THEY could have done will have to face the music after 120.

THAT my friend is what Hashem expects of us, and that is the mesorah of our gedolim and that is why our gedolim involved themselves in many areas that they would have much preffered not to be involved in.

Judaism is NOT a copycat religion. Before launching dor yeshorim they didn’t research whether in Europe they did genetic testing. What they did do is seek guidance from leaders as to whether such activism is approprioate based on the knowledge they had and the capabilites to act.

ditto the bais yackov movement, ditto hatzlah, ditto rccs, ditto bonei olam, ditto ditto ditto.

I’m not sure where in shulchan aruch it says that prior to helping allieviated a massive communal problem, one is supposed to research whether such chesed scenarios ever previously presented themselves.

What i believe my friend is that you don’t like the specific action plan of a specific program.

You are entitled to your opinion, as were the people whe were against dor yeshorim, sara schinerer, haztzalah.

You may even be right, but please leave the mesorah argument out of it, and discuss the pertinent issues.

2. I’m not quite sure what “I speculate – and I stress speculate – that it may be OUR mess up by overstepping our Hishtadlus obligations.”

Are up specualting the shidduch difficulites are a result of peoples efforts to sovle the problem???

PPA: cute game, wonder how you started with 1000/1000

Guess you completed your study.

Boy was that fast!!!

Unfourtantely in the nimshal i was reffering to it’s more like 2000/2200 with 200 girls each year not having any chairs to pair up with.

You asked about studies, yeah they were done by mathemiticians. It’s been discussed as nasuem in this very forum, so no i won’t re-enter that debate.

Fr the purposes of this forum I will simply work on the notion that there are significantly more children in 9th grade than in 12th grade.

Do you deny/debate/question that statement.

would you like to see the studies?

If yes feel free to contact the NASI Project. I’m sure they will make it abailable to you as they will to anyone who ask.

and here’s a little secret for all those poeple who think AZ is the brawn behind NASI.

I haven’t even studied the numbers, I’m not a mathemitician. The obvious statment that younger is larger was pashut to me as was the obviouls statment that girls beging dating on average a few years earlier than boys, and thus I use this venue to promote their mission.

The people behind the NASI Project. Yeah, they studied the numbers and had them reviewed by numerous people.

Interesting to hear that you have a few friends….. data shows that in the very yeshivish communites the situation is bad but not as bad as in other communites- go figure…

Snjn: Glad to see you’ve joined the disuccions after four years. Yes it’s been checked out. It’s the reason for the nasi project. It wasn’t started on a whim of some bored people, nor did 70 R”Y sign a letter acknowldging the truism of the age gap concept simply becasue AZ in the YWCR sais so.

Do the rich pretty girls get more attention- certainly! That’s true in all aread of life from kindergarten to 120. Rich connected, popular etc get first dibs. It’s part of being a member of the human race, deal with it. (for the record i am neither rich nor pretty).

Is that the reason why as a whole, girls have a harder time than guys

no no no

never never never

uh uh uh

if all girls where rich and pretty we would have just as many single girls as we have today.

remember my example of musical chairs…

girls are the participants

guys are the chairs.

Rich/pretty they just know how to hang closer to the chairs.

So long as there aren’t enough chairs for the participants it won’t make a dent.

This is the reaso why you won’t see a nasi project raising money so that girls families should have money. If they thought it would make a differenct they would do it.

But they know that it won’t- so they don’t.

Telling everyone we need go the age gap/break the stigma against slightly older girls has been exremely effective and iy”h will continue to be effective.

B”H much progress has been made and there is actually hope that this terrible situation will be solved (going forward).

we are closer to the end than the beginging.

Medium:

If you’ve followed the project at all, you will know clearly that this single program is not the beginging of their efforts nor is it the end of their efforts. It is simply ONE piece of the puzzle of a multi pronged effort

Dear Moderator: I’m told that there is a very chasuve rov who is strongly supportive of the NASI Project in general and this program in particular (his name isn’t on the letter as are many who are supportive of the Project and program who for various reasons aren’t on the letter) he is not only is forking over thousands of dollars, but he’s doing it not even for his own daughter and he’s is scraping the money together to do so.

I hope this answers your question