Seems like the mods are unhappy that the shidduch age gap thread is the most popoular thread in the cr. (230 posts in one week). Therefore let’s not update and it will disappers.

Now that’s espionage in CR. not sure what you are trying to say and I am not encouraging you to clarify yourself

Seems like we have gotten a bit of topic here. (it’s not kavod to squeak who opened the thread)

SJSinNYC:

“encourage bochurim to marry those who are close to their age (and even older),”

clearly the emphasis is on marrying close in age. Obviously marrying 30 yr old girl helps that girls in particular (as well as the age gap in general), however that wasn’t the gist of the letter.

regarding you questions on the math. I didn’t see a specific question that debated either of the 2 basic pretty self evident premises.

1. Population Growth

2. Age when girs/boys start dating.

You suggested that there are more girls born the jewish community but that is not substationated by class sizes of girls schools vs. boys schools.

What other issues do you have with the 2 premises?

PT: Chaverim: Tzippi:

“and encourage bochurim to marry those who are close to their age (and even older)”

Clearly the letter encourages close in age not only older.

Now assuming the signers of the letters aren’t dumb. The only reason to write so would be to alleviate the age gap problem.

If the issue is money looks etc. they would encourage boys to marry girls lacking those qualities what would marrying close is age help if not that they recognize that as the problem (which I know they do)

Furthermore, One doesn’t need to be a rocket scientis to figure out that if more boys marry close in age then fewer 19 yr old girls will be getting married.

If you want to know how I’m so up on the letter it’s because I spoke to Rav Aharon Feldman after he returned from meeting w/ Rav Elyashiv.

PT: the two links you sent.

#1 reffers to shadchanim

#2 in a general sense boys a bit earlier and girls a bit later is the only way to go.

I Have NEVER posted advice to girls or their families to discourage dating when they want. However we as a community should (and need to) facilitate more close in age shidduchim (as per the letter of the roshei yeshivos) and thus not look to run to redd shidduchim to 19 yr old.

Have a misrepresented the letter??

Apparently for the most part the CR chevra agree that age gap is the most significant issue creating the shidduch crisis.

How to close it is the question.

We would all agree to the following two statements.

1. Throwing the girls into the river is not the way to go.

2. If a boy is redd a girl his own age and it seems appropriate then he should be encouraged to go for it.

Our entire discussion focuses on the gray area between these two extremes, what can be done to effectively further encourage more close in age shidduchim

PM: “My (our) issue is with preventing girls as a general rule from entering shidduchim before 21”

I have not once posted or encouraged girls or their parents to hold them out of the dating scene. However that doesn’t mean that shaddchanim shouldn’t focus more on the girls who are 21-23 before focusing on the fresh from sem girls. Is this SO radical.

SJSinNYC: Please call SYAS and YU connect who I believe are the two most active shiddcuh organizations catering to the non yeshivish crowd. Please Let us know your findings, (I recommend getting hard numbers from them (like I did) and not just asking one shadchan for their personal observations.

GAW: “you point to the “harder to be a good boy than a good girl” argument, which is logical”

It is wholly irrelavant (and therefore not worth debating whether even true).

WHO DO THE NOT GOOD BOYS MARRY??? They don’t seem to be staying single!

Chaverim: “ignoring all the important questions disputing the age gap farce.”

I’m not quite sure which argumments you feel I’m ignoring. The only one I haven’t responded to (i think) is the fertility and family size issue. I have let that go Simply because I don’t have the shoulders to say that the shidduch crisis warrants having smaller families. However people like Rav Elyashiv and Rav Shteinman do have the shoulders to take the responsibility of encouraging boys to date girls thier own age which inevitable means fewer girls getting married at 19 year old getting married. Incidentally, in all likelihood girls getting married at 21-22 should biterech hateva have plenty of opportunity to have very large families.

PM:

1. closing it to wihtin 1.5 years would be a tremendous accomplishment for starters. If we get there we could talk about going further.

2.SJ’s and your own personal observations aside: the people heavily involved in the Non Yeshivish shidduch scene readily acknowledge that typical marriages are with quite a significant age gap.

Squek:

I have absolutely no idea what kind of a high price you think it comes at. What devastating side effect are on the horizon for encouraging boys to be willing to date girls their own age or a couple months older?? I don’t quite understand why boys being willing to date close to their age constitutes “following the herd” or whatever that is supposed to mean. Pls clarify.

However, recognizing my own significant limitations, I have take n counsel with universally recognized leaders of our communities (such as Rav Shteinman shlita) and they too feel that it is 1000% smart and necessary to encourage close in age shidduchim. Should people such as he who understand the problem decide to change course and advise against encouraging close in age shidduchim, I will be the first to follow.

Regarding the Avi Chai Link I will have to figue out a way to get it to you. Perhaps contact the NASI Project, I’m sure they could get it to you.

Squek I will gladly answer your questions. Pleae clarify if your issue is the basic facts or whether the proposed solutions are “following the herd” philosophy. I would like to know clearly which point to address.

Dr Pepper:

“but I think it is much harder for a guy to be a “good guy” than for a girl to be a “good girl”.”

Totally irrelevant regarding the shidduch crisis because of the the simple question.

WHO are the “not good” guys marrying.

And by and large they are all getting married. Perhaps the “not good” girls are getting married and the “good girls” are getting stuck. (totally unproven and unsubstantiated hypothesis).

Either way it is unacceptable that any class of girls be stuck. we as a community can make a difference. Let’s do it.

PT: Incorrect regarding the freezer and girls in lkwd. That is a myth that is and was never true.

havesomeseichel:

TO date the freezer has been very effective to accomplish the goal that it set out to do, and to a “t” there haven’t been heterim given. Therefore it can be used to very effectively encourage more close in age shidduchim without losing the purpose of the freezer, i.e. to have the boys get into their learning in a new yeshiva without having dating on their minds.

Truth be told it is a brilliant suggestion, (it is not my original idea). It trully is a potential silver bullet as there would be 750 boys per year with a very strong incentive to date girls their own age. However, I have very little faith that such change is coming, although we the people have the power to ask the powers that be to please consider it in light of the terrible pain out there and the very real obvious upside.

PT: “Who are you to be the judge of who stays and who goes? or the judge of who should stay and who should go.”

I fail to see how advocating that boys should make a decision based on what is best for their learning and not based on doing it because everyone is doing it. Lack appreciation for learning.

For the record I have been in a Yeshivis style kollel for over 10 yrs and everything that I have posted here has been discussed previously numerous times with a well recognized Rosh Yeshvia.

AZOI.IS: My time in the CR is certainly NOT for fun. I have a life. The sole purpose of the time spent here (at least for me) is to further the awareness of the devastating situation (and you have been very helpful to that end)and to open up peoples minds to the viable practicle albeit not so comfortable solutions.

Re: speaking to Roshei Yeshiva: I have personnaly spoken to Rav Shmuel Berenbaum Zatal, ybcl”c Rav Shteinman (through his chavrusa numerous times). Rav Matisyahu Solomon, The Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva, The Noveminsker Rebbe, and many others. I wouldn’t be wasting my time and energy if I didn’t have such strong backing.

Suggestion #2:

Don’t rush to redd shidduchim to fresh from sem girls. I have no problem if the girls and their parents try their utmost to get married. They could and should without worrying about the greater problem. “chayecha kodeim”.

BUT, the rest of us should NOT be helping them. We should be helping the girls who need it more (21-24).

What right does an outsider (typical shadchan who is not an immediate familey heter and therefore has no heter of “mibisarcha lo tisalem”) have to go redd a shidduch to a 19 yr old girl when the shidduch could just as well been redd to a 22 yr old?

Would you give tzedaka to a less needy person when a more needy person needs it at the same time?

Tzippi:

I will reiterate: the time learning in Israel before the get married is not nearly as productive as the time in the US both before and after their stint in Israel. Take a poll for yourself of boys who are back in America 2 years.

In a general sense:

There are no perfect answers. It’s easy to disregard all possible solutions as there is this problem or that. Certainly suggestions that are ridiculous or ineffective shouldn’t be considered. However here are the facts.

The present actions (or lack thereof) of our community are creating aprox. 200 agunos a year. Doing nothing will most definitely assure that this travesty continues. Please offer suggestions for alleviating this tragedy both in the short term and in the long term. Being a naysayer does very little toward alleviating the problem. Constructive discussion on viable suggestions is what is needed.

SJSinNYC: We are not advocating forbidding marrying non close in age. Obviously people will marry whomever the deem to be the right person for them.

HOWEVER, if boys would be set up with girls closer to their own age then in all likelihood they will end up marrying girls close to their own age. In the more yeshivish circles most boys marry one of the first couple of girls that they date. If they would be dating close in age they would more often be marrying close in age, and we wouldn’t have so many hundreds and hundreds of girls with no one to marry.

ywn member:

In the chassidishe circles the boys start dating at 18-19 and there are actually more boys on the market than girls. (the reverse of the non chasidicshe community although not nearly as sever). Therefore although the chasidishe girls by and large get married, the SOME boys get stuck.

SJSinc: “I think the better solution, is to encourage marriages between people in a plus/minus age range. Meaning, no longer make it taboo for a man to marry an slightly older woman If you try for that balance, you would possibly balance out the young/old shidduchim.”

100%. That’s all we are asking for.

However, so long as girls start dating at enmasse at 19 and boys at 22.5 we are fighting an uphill battle

Forgetting about quick fixes, and lets assume we have no short term way to solve the “maturity” problem. Is there any reason not to encourage more shidduchim between 22.5 yr old boys and 21 yr old girls.

Does anyone really think that the difference between a 23 yr old boy and a 22.5 yr old boy is all that great??

Assuming things continue as they have for the past 10 yrs. Boys will start dating at around 23, Girls at 19 and we aill have hundred and hundreds more girls never getting married and never having Families.

Can someone please explain to me the great harm in encouraging more shidduchim between boys 22.5 and girls 19. ?????

Is It That Radical??

Now for some tangible effective practical suggestions how to encourage more shidduchim between boys 22.5 – girls 21, and fewer 23-19

Presently the average age of boys returning from learning in yeshivish stlye yeshivos Mir, Brisk, Rav Zvi Kaplan etc. is 22.5 with many first returning at 23+.

1. If yeshivos would set a age limit on returning boys from EY. Starting with a cutoff of 23 and slowly moving down to 22.5. It would create a situation were boys are starting to date 6 months younger.

2. (In yeshivos were boys are not allowed to date when they first come)

If come Tu B’shvat/Tamuz boys are only permitted to date girls 21 and older, and to date younger girls a boy must wait till after the zeman, then boys will have a strong incentive to date girls their own age.

3. Do not redd shidduchim to girls who are just coming home from sem. There are plenty of girls 20-24 that will have all the qualities that THAT boy needs.

The net result of such actions will be far greater close in age shidduchim without any real major change to the system as is.

Any one who feels there are other problems w/ the system so be it. However regarding the CRISIS as it relates to girls being agunos, it begins and ends with AGE GAP.

Lets get to work on closing the age gap without any ridiculous radical changes thta will never happen

“By only setting up a guy and girl, if they are close in age”

Does anyone really think we will ever reach a point that ONLLY close in age shidduchim will go out?

What is urgently needed is far far more close in age shidduchim than in the past. A good place to start is to not go run to redd all the lkwd guys coming out of the freezer (almost 23 yr olds) to the sem girls coming home in a week (19 yr olds).

Tzippi:

If you can just explain why a 22.5 yr old boy marrying a 21 yr old girl (instead of a 23 yr old marrying a 19 yr old) qualifies as

If you feel 22.5 boy to a 21 yr old girl will have such horrible shalom bayis please clarify the basis for such suspicion.

From a closing the age gap standpoint it makes all the difference in the world!

For those who think the shidduch crisis is limited to the Yeshivish (learning boys) community, think again. Try speaking to SYAS or YU Connect among other organization that deal in the non yeshivish chevra. They have the same crisis. Clearly, the cause of the crisis ISN’T the learning thing.

If anyone bothers do understand how it’s possible to have more single girls than guys tehy will understand the obvious truth of how redding close in age shidduchim WILL alleviate the crisis.

Mods: I understand that the shidduch crisis/ age gap issue is not nearly as interesting to the cr community as all the other earth shattering topics such as cholent,cr anniversary thread, good shabbos and a host of other topics. I have a simple request to allow one thread on this topic. If the cr chevra aren’t interested they just won’t post. BYTW Judging from the last time it was discussed it was quite active.

Thanks Gavra:

it seems like it’s nist AZOI.IS

THE reason that there are 5 times more older girls than guys (authors own admission)…..

AGE GAP AGE GAP AGE GAP

I’ll go on record as saying that redding shidduchim to sem girls (age 18-19) who will be coming home in the next couple of weeks, is a terrible avla and will undoubtedly perpetuate and exacerbate the crisis.

To AZOI.IS:

How many boys do you know who have been dating 5 yrs (27 yrs old) How many girls do you know who have been dating 5 yrs (24 yrs old.

Proud Tatty:

Your argument is based on saying that their are more girls looking for learning guys than available learning guys. what should follow is the girls girls looking for working guys should have a breeze.

Sorry to tell you it aint so. Try speaking to shaddchanim in the not so right ring crowd and get a sense for what’s going on. Clearly across all spectrums of orthodox jewry (other than chasidish) the girls are having a terrible time of it.

However at least we agree that crisis comes down to an inequity of numbers.

Anonymiss:

It wasn’t HE who told 23 year old boys to date 19 year old girls. If there’s one clear directive from HIM it that boys should be married at 18. (Not that I’m advocating that. Obviously for whatever reason, that is not done in non chasidic communities). Howver, let’s not blame HIM for a totally self imposed tragedy.

The question isn’t where was HE, but were are WE.

GoldieloXX:

This was my original post on page 4

Best segulah:

“Work to CLOSE THE AGE GAP by encouraging more close in age shiddchim. It is THE source of the problem. Not only would this be a segulah because “Kol Hamispalel bi’ad chaveiro vi’hu tzarich li’oso davar hu ne’na techila”, it’s is also the natural solution to the problem.

Is your question answered?

Fair enough.

Without getting into the practicality of whether we will be successful in changing middos. At best, even if successful it will only shift the problem. At the end of the day 150 girls on the island 100 boys ……

If we change the boys middos then perhaps many more of the wonderful girls who may not possess all the superficial trappings will get married at the expense of of the rich pretty etc. At the end of the day, the only way to ensure ALL girls have a shot is to even out the numbers. Is that something you disagree with?

Tzippi, Ames,:

There is absolutely no question that age alone isn’t a reason to date. People need to be compatible. What we are discusing is that age (within reason) should not be a reason NOT to date. To the contrary boys and their parents should look in the very large pool of girls their own age for a girl with whom they think they can build a bayis neeamn.

Clearly the reason for the crisis is the inequity of numbers that is a direct result of the age gap. In the last year and a half there seems to have been so many more close in age shidduchim as a result of the awarenss that has been created.

As for ames contention that girls will not respect their husbands. Clearly it depends on the individual. There are plenty of 24 yr old boys who would earn the respect of plenty of 22-23 year old girls. Do you really think that every 23 year old needs to marry a 19 year old to have a good marriage? Is their any evidence that close in age shidduchim create shaolom bayis prolems?