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Mezonos Maven:
Thank You.
Add to that the recent populatin explosion (B”H) and we clearly understand why this is going on in the relatively recent past.
The reason Shadchanim do not state the compensation they would like to receive upfront is NOT because they are looking to take advantage at the end -but rather because they are by and large a bashful group when it comes to asking for money. Being that there is such a “es kumpt mir” attidute regarding using our dealings with shadchanim they feel like they are being grubby if they where to discuss any kind of money when they are first called.
For some reason plumbers, mechanincs electricians don’t have that problem. Might it just be because we create the atmosphere that makes shadcahnim uncomfortable about discussing money.
Everyone here agrees with the unbeliveable time and effort shadchanim put into redding shidduchim why is is so hard to recognize that they should be made to feel that they deserve the compensation and that they receive it because they are like beggers.
oomis1105
“I would say I put in a few weeks on this.”
By your own admission you spend such extensive time on ONE shidduch. Certainly people who dedicate themselves to not just one shidduch deserve fair compensation.
Forgetting about shadcahnim asking for compensation, what right do people who receive such service have the right to not expect to pay and offer for the extensive time energy and many times even money (long distance/international phone calls).
In addition, since when does a person who is working on your behalf only deserve to be paid if they have training etc. What difference should it make whether a shadchan considers themselves professional or not. If they CHOOSE to do it as a favor – Tavoy alichem bracha. But how can we have the expectation that they work on our behalf and not expect to pay them. I just don’t get it.
Not to mention the only thing that matters and that is that al pi halacha a shadchan has a right to get paid.
Since when does a person who is
DR. Pepper:
It seems like you do agree with the math, (quite a haskama from the math expert that you clearly are). The question you are addressing is the reason WHY boys (or if they do) prefer younger girls.
That being so, if you suggest that it is a unchangeable social fact and therefore it is a waste of time and energy to attempt to encourage more close in age shidduchim-so be it. I for one have come to realize that the stakes are high, way to high to simply give up because its to hard to change.
The Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva behind the movement to encourage more close in age shidduchim are banking on the idea that although there may be boys that will insist (for whatever reason) on only dating/marrying significantly younger girls; there are PLENTY of boys that would be and (the past two years have proven) are willing to date close in age. NO one is claiming that there should never be a 19 year old girls marrying a 23 year old boy. What is clearly needed is more- many more close in age shidduchim. The past couple of years have shown that simply raising awareness has changed many attidutes.
The next step is to institute some kind of MINOR structural change that would result in a scenario where boys and girls entered the dating pool slightly closer than what is occurring at present. If such was to occur besides the obvious mathmatical benefit, the specific social concern you raised would also be alleviated.
cherrybim:
The gem say “Chachom Adif Mi’navi”. If chachomim (70 Roshei Yeshiva) recognize the source of a significant problem and make recommendations to correct it, I’m not sure why the hesitation to accept.
Clearly correcting the root of a problem it the logical way to solve a problem. That doesn’t require Nevuah
oomis1105
If shadchanim spent four hours on a girl and then went on to the next one – you can rest assured that girl wouldn’t get to far.
Try asking a shadchan how much time it takes to get a single date of the ground. 4 hours???? are you joking???
“But plenty of shadchanim redd shidduchim for the wrong reasons, JUST to try to make that fee.”
incorrect- The Overwhelming majority of shadchanim out there are NOT trying to make a quick buck. it’s not quick and it’s a very small buck compared with the time energy and aggravation that goes along with the territory.
oomis 1105: You say you’re retired. Why not try your hand at shadchnus in a serious way and let us know your findings
ronrsr:
“If a payment is required for honest labor, which this is, please tell me in advance what that fee will be. I will not think less of you.”
If only everyone was like you….
However, presently most shadchanim are made to feel like beggers after they complete a shiddcuh. Most (including the big time “proffesional”) shadchanim do not have a set fee as they are not businessman. Addditionally, the whole concept of paying them for their work is distorted in our pysche. Thus they don’t feel comfortabel asking for anything- certainly not when someone calls and asks them to help and they haven’t produced yet.
YES- the feeling on the street is that if a shadchan DARE ask for a upfront arrangement – they WIll be thought less of….
It’s high time people who called shadchanim realized that they are asking someone to work for them – the caller should insist up front offering a salary commesurate for work done – NOT just if the shidduch gets completed.
I wonder how many people who had to pay would still hound the shadchanim day and night. When things are free – people undervalue/ abuse…..
Joseph: Correct. Every thing else combined would help a tiny bit. AGE GAP would CHANGE the WHOLE picture IMMENSELY.
as the old saying goes
(paraphrased)
“One hack at the root is, worth many at the branches”
and it is eminently doable……
ronrsr:
That would only be a minor minor help for the crisis. bottom line is the boys are somehow getting married to girls, without being polished et al….
oomis1105
Just curious you suggest $100 to hire a shadchan. How many hours of the shadchans time do you think that should buy? How many phone calls should that rewuire her to make on on the girls behalf? How much time speaking to the girls and her parents. I’m sure in you proffesion $100 buys UNLIMITED access to your time and skills.
When you realize the time energy and effort it takes to get even ONE date off the ground I believe you will sing a different tune..
Lets all face the facts. We feel totally justified in taking total ADVANTAGE of shadchanim….
That is just plain WRONG!!
oomis1105
You comment
“they should be paid for their HISHTADLUS, not for whether the shidduch goes through,”
Agreed. For some reason this is not done in our communities and it is a travesty.
“if it’s as time-consuming as you describe.”
You clearly don’t have any good friends who are active in shidduchim if you are unsure of whether it is as time consuming as i describe.
“Anyone who wants a shadchan to work for them, should sign a contract as with any service, and pay a fee (say $100 or so). THEN they have the right to make those calls to the shadchan, and the shadchan has to make an obvious and sincere effort to find a shidduch for the son or daughter.”
Again you are totally unaware of the the process. People who don’t give the shadchan a penny – call (some receive close to 100 call a day) day and night DEMANDING (due to their frustration and desperation) that the shadchan look out for their daugther. Shadchanim generally being nice people don’t have the heart to say no, and therefore they end being treated like dogs…..
What do you suggest should be done about that.
This is not only true for the “professional” many many people who do not consider themselves “proffesionals” are spending HOURS and HOURS EVERY DAY trying to help the poeple who reach out to them simply because they don’t have the heart to say no. This is at a tremendous cost to their personal and family life.
And then we offer a kibud at the chuppa – oh and we will be gracious and send them some flowers…….
What are we thinking. And then we complain we don’t have enough shadchanim…….
Obviously different communities have different customs (as is very common)
Squeak: Are you disagreeing with what the Roshei Yesvhiva Signed?? The letter was clearly about Closing the Age Gap…..
To the best of my knowledge I have espoused nothing other than figuring out ways to encourage close in age shidducim being that it is the primary cause(and we can get into petty discussion whether that means 51% or 95%) of the problem.
(my humble opinon is that the Roshei Yeshiva wouldn’t have put out such a letter focusing on age gap if they felt it was simply one of many causes and that allieviating the age gap wouldn’t help much…)
I have not and will not name Roshei Yeshiva by name in this forum.
There are many many roshei yeshiva on record who do not think litvishe boys should date at 19 and you know that as well as I do.
As for returning from EY earlier – no way I can prove it until it happens. Suffice it to that many many of the Roshei Yeshiva who signed the letter are very much on board with that idea as well. The implementation of it will not be done by putting letters in the paper – but slowly and surely as Roshei Yeshiva talk to their individual talmidim.
Squek: please clarify. I wouldn’t think that you are accusing the 70 Roshei Yeshiva of narrow-mindedness.
Rebbetzin: Arranged marriages (not that it is happening any time soon) wouldn’t help the litvishe in the slightest – unless they are close in age. The reason why chasidishe girls don’t have a problem has nothing to do with dating STYLES- It has to do with dating AGES.
If there was a realistic chance that Litvishe boys would start dating at 19 years old we could talk about it. However that isn’t likely to happen in my or you lifetime for various reasons…. starting with the fact that the Roshei Yeshiva/Daas Torah don’t think it’s a good idea.
To encourage the boys to date slightly earlier, perhaps return from EY slightly earlier-Yeah that’s realistic and will probably start happening….
I am on the bandwagon of promoting what can and is realistic to be achieved (and only that which is endorsed by leading Roshei Yeshiva).
NY MOM: you hit the nail on the head
Litvishe have a age gap problem Chasidishe do not. It’s about time the world started gettig this….
In truth the chasidim have a slight reverse problem (more boys in the dating pool than girls) which is why the boys have difficulty although nowhere near the problems the Litvishe girlshave…..
THIS is the reasong why the Litvishe boys can be picky, demand money, looks, yichis etc etc AND get away with it.
If we as a community want to change these factors then CLOSE THE AGE GAP. The boys will no longer have the mighty upper hand they have now and things will be where they should be…
Squeak:
I appreciate the compliment (backhanded or not)
NY Mom:
One question for you. How are all the boys getting married (to girls????
They ARE saying YES (just perhaps not to your suggestions……)
Shaindel: Please enlighten the cr members in denial about the time energy and effort that the shadchan you know has to expend to make the 2-5 successful shidduchim.
I’m sure there are people who think that she makes a couple of phone calls a week no doubt while relaxing with not a care in the world and presto 5 shidducim a year…….
ronrsr: I’m very impressed. The absolute top top shadchanim in their best years make LESS than 25 shidduchim.
That comes from attempting close to 1000 shidduchim and having close to 350 go out. Anyone who is somewhat involved in shidduchim knows the time and energy it takes to redd even one shidduch. What these few shadchanim do takes a superhuman effort which strips these shadchanim of any vestige of personal life.
All for LESS than 25 shidduchim. If their were any other field like sales and put in this time and skill they would be millionaires- not making peanuts……
As for the shadchanim who make 5-8 a year and don’t have much more of a personal life………
People should take the time to understand what kind of work these people are putting in so that others can get married.
And here in the CR people on the one hand complain that there aren’t enough shadchanim and then at the same time comment “well flowers or a box of chocolates is a nice hakaros hatov- how dare a shadchan expect to get paid for their work. They should do it l’sheim shamayim.”
What audacity!!
It seems like you are no longer discussing the shidduch crisis i.e. why are so many girls single; and you are no onto a totally different (albeit valid) discussion as to the kollel/parnasah discusiion. These are two SEPARATE discussions that unfortunately many people become confuse.
If the boys are getting married and they are marrying girls then your point is NOT related to why so many more girls than boys are remaining single.
Somehow or another the boys who you claim “don’t seem to get their act together” are finding (plenty of) girls to marry. It might not be the girls in your crowd, but the shidduch crisis isn’t about this crowd or that crowd. WHY can’t we figure out a way to enable every girl to get married.
Shaindel: Any way you slice it the boys are by and large getting married to girls. If more boys were the type you suggest than the girls looking for kollel types would be stuck. Does it really make a difference if the girls who is 30 and single is this type or that type. Shouldn’t the communities goal be to figure out how to enable ALL of acheinu bnos yisroel to get married.
Bemused
Joseph
Thank you It’s quite amazing how many people have no problem telling others what and how they should preform chesed.
Jothar:
I have asked your question to numerous shadchanim who don’t have a price and just graciously receive whatever is given. They have told me that typical shadchanus is $1,000 to $1,500 each side.
However it varies by community and obviously people who can’t afford give less wealthy more. But the $$ amount I quoted is pretty much the going rate.
For all those holier than thou people:
Take a guess how many shidduchim per year the busiest shadchanim make. Yeah the ones who have no personal or private life left because they are hounded non stop from 7am until 1am. The ones who go to weddings and don’t put a morsel of food in their mouth because mothers are lining up to get their attention. The ones whose married children can’t talk to them on the phone because they receive 100 incoming phone calls a day – the callers (due to frustration/desperation) DEMAND that they get return calls. The ones who can’t have private time with their children because of the incessant phone calls and the need to navigate the tricky waters and logistics of whatever active dates on on their head on any given day.
Anyone want to venture how many shiddcuhim they make in their best year??
B”H I chapped where Artchill is coming from. 8 months ago he saw a article from Rabbi Horowitz (see cr from then) regarding divorce rates and artchill decided that encouraging close in age shidduchim ruining marriages….
Interesting research……
Tzippi: The Ribbono Shel Olam is the Kol Yachol there is nothing to discuss. Sitting on our hands and saying let him solve our self created problem is a cop out-Sorry. The letter actuallly says the “in his great kindness it has recently been revealed that the main cause of the crisis is age gap”
Shaindel: No one seems to be debating that it is the girls having the difficulty. May I humbly ask WHO is the shadchan for all the boys. Yes shadchanim are abused etc. etc. BUT the dearth of shadchanim is NOT a major factor in the shidduch crisis.
artchill: you write
“poor girls settled and took miserable spouses who settled for families more appropriate for the…. Girls who are trapped in a hamster wheel of abuse with nowhere to turn.”
Please let us know on what basis you make claims that it the last year and half to two years (that’s how long age gap awareness has been going on)this has happened because “they fell for the crisis mentality”.
The letters published in the newspaper tell a different story…
Please don’t make things up…….
Artchill:
“Raising awareness that Hashem is mezaveg zevugim will help solve the problem.”
Perhaps you didn’t see the letter from 70 Roshei Yeshiva in the US and Rav Shteiman and Rav Scheinberg. They “respectfully” disagree with your approach how to alleviate the situation.
Artchill: How can you love numbers of hundreds and hundreds of girls in their upper 20’s dating 7-8 years and STILL not married. You can be cute and and disagree, but please feel for the girls….
Thanks Squek:
My proposal with paying shadchanim has nothing to do with age gap at all simply because what goes on is just not right.
Artchill: I have no doubt that you are a expert in halacha however numerous Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim who are familiar with the abuse shadcahnim suffered have encouraged changing the system. It’s really not my issue and I have no intention of pushing this agenda……..
Next school:
2000 (27 years old- dating 8 years) 10 single -67 graduates = 14.9%
2001 (26 yrs old-dating 7 years) 17-72 23.6%
2002 (25 yrs old-dating 6 years) 21-85 24.7%
2003 (24 yrs old-dating 5 years) 14-76= 18.4% (all things considered for this school this year is actually a good percentage as sad as is sounds…..)
” shadchanim are overwhelmed, overworked and underpaid,”
MOST DEFINATELY!
I might add totally under appreciated and frequently abused (verbally)/
It’s high time shadchanim started getting paid for their work even if it doesn’t end in a shidduch.
Suggestion: After three dates each side should give $150 and %50 per date for each further date. If they end up getting engaged a additional gift would be appropriate.
HOWEVER
this all being said the boys still seem to be getting married relatively qucikly and thus this point is only very SLIGHTLY related to the shidduch crisis. After all someone is making the shidduchim….
Artchill: I don’t know you and i presume you don’t know me but the day the Rabbonim who encourage closing the age gap change their mind is the the last day I will encourage that agenda. At the present time it seems like you feel you know better………. Please read the letter from over 70 Roshei Yeshiva carefully…
the close the age gap agenda has been in the public eye for a very short period of time. Interesting you should claim to know of “victims” unless a 19 yr old having a slightly harder time because some boys are starting to ask for slightly older girls is a victim…. EDITED
ronrsr:
The boys ARE getting married and they are marrying females :-).
It has almost NOTHING to do with dating expectations. The suggestion of more people getting involved in shidducim helps only minimuly. After all the boys are getting married without additional help. The working boys are also getting married….
What IS needed is more people getting involved in figuring out ways to even out the numbers (close the age gap) thus evening out the numbers. However in the YWCR it seems to be a lost cause – oh well…..
If we are going the ploniville route I’ll produce some more numbers. this is smalll sampling of schools I receive more data I will gladly share it (without disclosing names of schools and names of girls.)
school #1
’02 (25 yrs old)
22 out of 88 not married (25%)
‘O3 (24 yrs old)
39-104 not married (37.5%)
school #2
1999- 28 year olds
13 single out of 107= 12.2%
2000-27 year olds
6-83= 7.2% +(6 divorced with children)
2001- 26 year olds:
9 single out of 74=12.2%
2003-24 year olds:
13-79=16.5%
totals 241-343 (6)=11.9%
35-260 (not counting 2000 unusual year w/ 6 divorces)) =13.5%
school #3
2000 (27 yrs old)
5-35 not married = 14.3 %
2001 (26 yrs old)
9-40= 22.5 %
2002 (25 yrs old)
11-36= 30.5%
2003 (24 yrs old)
13-40= 32.5%
(24-27) 151 graduates -38 single =25.1%
False. Funny you say that. I am actually quite friendly with them and from the data on girls schools alumni it seems to be higher. Would you please clarify when and who made the comment that 10% is an exaggeration. What they have said is that the community needs to be awakened out of their slumber and realize the tragedy – even if it means publicizing the numbers and thus scaring people……..
P.S. I am very happy you made $12 million in a business venture. You should have much hatzlacha further.
artchill
In Ploniville (EDITED) graduating class of 2000 (27 yr olds) 14% still single. I actually just received the total number of graduates and the number of singles. I obviously can’t post the name of the school or the names of the singles. Try contacting some of the alumni and ask them to go their yearbooks……..
EDITED
Goody 613: Please explain how arranged marriages will alleviate the problem of their being more girls in the dating pool than boys. As the Letter form over 70 Roshei Yeshiva states, the problem is a result of having more girls in the available pool than boys, which is directly is caused by AGE GAP.
Ronrsr: See what was just written. Having more than 10% of girls never getting married is at the very least a crisis. If you have time do some research on HS and their alumni. The data of alumni still single at 30 and above should make anyone shriek. (The boys have less than 2% single after 5 yrs of dating).
Mybat: This problem is not limited to the yeshvish community in the slightest. One difference in the Yeshiva community is that they typically larger families and thus age gap creates a higher discrepancy of numbers.
Artchill: please don’t put words in Rav Shteinman’s mouth. He wrote in his own handwriting and didn’t request that the letter be any different.
It was he who used the term Aguna to refer to the present shidduch crisis – not I.
Not to mitigate Chas V’shalom the agonizing pain of families with (serious) shalom bayis issues. I just fail to see the correlation…..
ronrsr- That more than 10% of the girls in the orthodox community have no chance to get married and have a family.
feel free to call up high schools and ask them about their alumni ages 27-32 how many students in the graduating year and how many are still single…..
Joseph if it’s funny to u-I fail to see the humor..
What is bothersome about the word aguna. In the gemara it typicalls refers to a single woman who has a problem remarrying. In our present situation we are dealing with HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS……..
Mepal
This is not about MY pain. B”H I am married – and my children are nowhere near shidduch age. It would be nice if people felt the pain of the bnos yisroel who are agunos (term that Rav Shteinman used).
Shaindel,
Are there really Rabbonim and lay people talking about it? Halevai Haelvai, I haven’t heard to many people talking about it. More importantly, what are they saying- or is it the same old same old…….
Did anyone see the Yated/Hamodia over Yom Tov. Interesting take on the shidduch crisis………
Just wondering if Squeak and Joseph saw the letter from Rav Shteinman Rav Scheinberg and 66 Roshei Yeshiva. The CR has been awfully quite on the topic. EDITED
Yeshiva Net is the way to go. It is NOT a filter. (filters passwords etc are not foolproof). With Yeshivanet you are NOT connected to the open internet. ONLY sites that are specifically requested and approved are connected.
It won’t work for people that do research surf the web etc. For people who need access to the same 20-30-60 even 500 or more sites it is fantastic. If one needs to access an additional site it is added in a very prompt fashion.
side advantage: Yeshiva net will save a TON of wasted time besides for the significant issues discussed in the letter.
Joseph:
I’m not sure why it’s addressed to me,ytou probably meant the NASI Project. But the answer is NO. The NASI project from the gitgo clearly stated that the shadchan project is subject to funds availability.
Re NASI money:
They stopped paying for two reasons.
A) Having given out over $100,00 B”H, continued funding became untenable as the economy tanked. If money comes in they will continue to pay out outstanding claims.
The reason it was stopped abruptly was because
b) parents started giving less to the shadchan leaning on NASI to take over THEIR responsibility.
“the couple figured that they would get 2,000 shadchunus gelt from NASI, so they gave the shadchan much less than they would have.”
That is plain and simple just wrong and was never the intention of the project. By stopping abruptly fewer shadchanim would get “jipped “
Regarding the need to encourage more close in age shidduchim in general: Stay tuned for a letter for 35+ R”Y in America with support from Gedolim in EY.
I’m sure when it is released it will be posted in the CR……
rwndk1: Please calm down! There never was and (hopefully) never will be a project to pay someone to marry a girl who is older than him. The goal of the project is to raise awarness of the issue.
Raising awareness WILL (and has already begun to) alleviate the problem. Money to shadchanim, discounts in stores, public speeches on the topic, article in the newpapaer, even the threads in the “heilige” YW CR are all simply a form of marketing and bringing to peoples attention to the issue. B”H tremendous strides have been made in the past two years and there are no signs of letting up.
My contact in the NASI Project told me the following.
“There NEVER was a plan to use $$$ to solve the crisis. What there has and continues to be is a VERY effective ongoing effort to raise awareness about the urgent need to encourage more close in age shidduchim. (see yated this week page 6). One part of that effort was giving money to people who where the shadchan for such qualifying shidduchim. That specific tactic, although unbelievable successful at putting the issue on the map and having given out over $100,000, has been closed to new new applications due to difficulty in raising $$$. They do still have the store incentive project where over 30 stores and businesses are giving discounts to the families of qualifying shidduchim. Ranging from Shaitels to orchestras etc. etc. They know no one will marry a girl to save 10%, BUT it’s all about awareness!!!
Baruch Hashem, the NASI Project as a whole is very alive and well. I was told that a letter from over 25 R”Y in America as well as Gedolim in EY will be coming out within the next week or two furthering the message of encouraging close in age shidduchim.”
Stay Tuned…….
Is $350 excessive for a lawyer?????
What in the world does prep time have to do with anything. You are not paying the tutor for punching the clock. You are paying him for making a difference in a kids life. I would think it depends on the tutors ability to take the student and get him where he needs to be. If the tutor can get the job done then it’s worth whatever everything. (if he’s just a crutch then….)
When I am asked to tutor I say I’m not as cheap as a babysitter and not as expensive as a lawyer.