Dr. Pepper: Thanks.

As for your statement

minimal, (ripping off leaves)

Tzippi:

from Rav Shteinman: “May Hashem strengthen you to find all sorts of ????.”

However, I hate to burst your bubble but the close the age gap movement didn’t start with the kol korei and doesn’t end with the kol korei. The R”Y who are advising those involved, do not look in the kol korei for a mekor prior to attempting to implement the ideas.

Re: out of town. That was a suggestion that happens to be very smart and sensible but isn’t a make it or break it. Giving 20 year olds from out of town an advantage will NOT prolong the crisis. Yes easing the age gap is basically the be all and end all.

cherrybim: I’m sure if you contact the NASI organization they will tell you exactly who to speak in each school to get the info. Numbers can be manipulated (i guess if you say so). The obvious reality that there are far more older single girls than boys can not. If you don’t see that then i guess there not much to discuss. BYTW for someone who has worked with statistics and numbers their entire adult life, the Population x Age Gap theory should be obvious- as it is to Dr. Pepper- our in house math expert(s).

Mezonos Maven: I don’t think you begin to grasp the issue. There are definatly more single 20 year old boys than 20 year old girls because the boys at 20 haven’t even started dating. If you want to understand the age gap concept you have to realize that girls start dating at 19 and boys at 22. The fact that there are perhaps as many single 23 year old boys as 23 girls does not mean there is no crisis. It’s just sticking your head in the sand…..

If we are able to encourage the 23 year old boys to date the 23 year old girls we will make a huge dent. Similarly if we are able to encourage the 26 year old boys to date the 26 year old girls.

However, to say that having equal numbers of single 26 yr old boys to 26 old girls (don’t event think that’s true) means there is no problem is so off base…… How is it by the girls after after dating 6 yrs many are still single and the boys get married in a much shorter period of time.

Tzippi: The argument for giving out of town this perk (not that is HAS to be that way) is that out of town is hit significantly harder than in town. (In a boys “market” given the choice of a couple of girls, a boy will most likely prefer in-town to out-of-town). Please remember, it is not a question of ALL or NOTHING (as you sometimes seem to argue). In addition if the out of town communities stand to benefit significantly they could use their collective influence to encourage BMG to make the change.

cherrybim: your argument is factually incorrect. The girls who are not looking for kollel guys are no better off that the girls who are i.e. the schools where the girls are less likely to pursue kollel guys do NOT have better percentages as your argument suggests.

Other suggestions:

Best one by a long shot is altering slightly the the BMG “freezer”. Tu B’shvat boys can only date girls 21+. To date younger they must wait till Pesach. (perhaps out of town 20 year old girls should also be allowed) It’s the boys choice – wait or date close in age.

Close to 400 boys with a personal incentive to date close in age. Now that’s a effective, implementable idea that doesn’t cost a penny.

I mean to say that you clearly are not happy with the present educatuonal system. You have decided that that is critical to the shidduch crisis. I am sure the R”Y regret not having consulted with you prior to signing the letter, but they respectfully disagree.

What the R”Y realize is that the best way to resolve the shidduch issue as well as so many of the issues you raise is by evening out the numbers. When it’s not a boys market they can’t make demands etc.

What does overhauling the entire educatuonal system have to do with the issue of the boys getting married and the girls getting left out…. Why do you choose the shidduch crisis as the place to grind you ax.

If you can show one SIGNIFICANT correlation between any of your points and how the boys get married (to girls) and many girls still say single – I will let up.

mybat: no hope is a very strong term. But as things stand there are not enough boys to go around. Yes it is very very tragic. The longer we as a community sit on our collective hands the more girls will fall victim. Hashem hasn’t forgoteen, we are being blind.

Tzippi: The boys that go to EY after a couple of years in bais medrash in America typically go first at around 21 and return on average at 22.5 many closer to 23. It is hard to argue that it would be a travesty if boys on average returned at 21.75/22, would it?? Considering the upside (the boys own time in EY is not always so great/the shidduch crisis) it’s really a no brainer and many many R”Y know this.

Mezonos Maven:

1) the number of nebach older boys PALES in comparison to the number of older girls which is why it is considered a girls crisis. The boys that are older and still single could take a girls every night of the week if the so choose. So while the pain of being single is there for boys as well, the numbers dictate that hundreds of girls have not shot.

2) Interesting you talk about what the R”Y did or didn’t sign. And what if I told you that many R”Y believe boys should come back earlier but aren’t ready to sign such a public statement because the boys are not ready to listen??? You’ll probable call me a liar- that is until a year from now when presto many R”Y are encouraging their boys to curtail their time in EY somewhat.

Here’s a suggestion. Instead of pontificating, try speaking to R”Y when you happen to see them. I’ll think you will be surprised by what MANY will say. I know -because I have.

Cherrybim: Statistics may lie – single girls never getting married never having children don’t.

Tzippi: YES YES YES. Mandating is not necessary. I won’t bore you with the math but if we are successful in having more close in age shidduchim to the tune of average one month closer than last year – the problem for THIS years entering girls will be solved. We will need to continuously close the gap by one month per year (and help each entering year) until we are about average age gap one year.

Eminently doable if we only paid attention. It’s doesn’t mean all marriages have to be close in age, just significantly more than in the past. B”H much has been done but as a community we are a far way from being finished.

EDITED

cherrybim:

Trust me the poeple who are spending their time on the issue have looked at the mortality rates and other sociological factor. What is clearly the number one issue is population gorwth x age gap. Do you deny that or are you simply unaware?

rescue37:

Who are all the “not” good boys marrying?? Because almost all the boys seem to be married..

Jothar: correct. Oversupply is far from the problem

And yet the boys (almost) all get married relatively quickly. How does that happen???

Jotahr: To whom was your last comment directed

Bemused, well said.

jewishandworking22:

“Why do “professional” shadchanim THINK and EXPECT that they should get paid????

Do I get paid for davening every day? Saying a bracha before and after I eat something? If so, please tell me to whom do I go to, so I can collect? I won’t have to work anymore and I’ll retire.”

Just curious what would happen if you tried that line on your hairdresser, (chesed) gardener (chesed), childs tutor (chesed), grocery store (chesed), you get my drift. Since when do YOU have the right to determine where and when someone else should spend thier time to help YOU and then demand that they do it as a chesed??

Dr Pepper:

The people involved with the NASI project would love to have talented capable people join their team. They would definatley welcome you input and assistance. At present it consists of a very small handful of unbelievably dedicated people under direct leadership of leading Roshei Yesiva. Your help would be invaluable. Contact them!

Cherrybim:

It is posted on the yw website – september 24th 2009

I guess the consensus is that there is nothing wrong with expectingdemandinghounding someone (a shacdchan) to put time and energy into helping me (my child) and not offer anything in return for their efforts – unless i get what i want.

How selfish.. but maybe it’s just me.

Joseph:

I have never claimed that all the ideas/suggestions were signed on by the 70 Roshei Yeshiva. Clearly not every idea can be presented to such a large body for endorsement. The 70 Roshei Yeshiva signed on to the the general idea of what the problem is and what needs to be done. Rav Shteinma wrote “May Hashem strengthen you to find all sorts of ????”

How to achieve the goal is a very good question. There are very well respected Roshei Yeshiva who are advising the people who are investing their energies to come up with effective suggestions. I will let them know that you would like to be added to their think tank. They appreciate any and all feedback/help.

cherrybim: I’m glad you think the situation is hyterical. Try speaking to families with older single daughters.

Call me a dreamer, that’s fine. Since when is it assur to attempt to help fellow members of klal yiroel – even if there are those that think you will not be successful. I am not asking for your time money effort – but please don’t belittle those who care. For the record 70 roshei yeshiva signed a letter encouarging more close in age shidduchim. I don’t think it’s kavod to refer to their intent as a fantasy. Surely their judgment is at least as good as yours.

Naysayers are a time a dozen..

Artchill: item number 3 and 4 are blatantly false.

The Roshei Yeshiva wrote Primary reason not sole reason,

I have proposed (fair) wages for their labor, I never proposed lawyers wages.

cherrybim: The ribbono shel oilam expects us to do our best. The rest is up to him. Quitting on Klal yisroel isn’t an option.

Apparently 70 Roshei Yeshiva thought it’s a worthwhile endeavor. FYI progress has been made in the real world, every little bit counts. If the cr is behind the times – I really don’t care.

Tzippi: families with one or more older single daughters IS a risk factor for shalom bayis. Try speaking to some parents who are in that position and ask them about the ruach in their home.

Rav Shteinman puplicly stated that this is one of the greatest tragedys facing the jewish people today. I’ll take that as a call to action.

Have you ever met a car saleman who was hounded from morning till night day after day to find him just the right car?

“if shadchanim had the audacity to ask for fees upfront for their efforts, they would become FORMERLY successful shadchanim.”

You obviously are very distant from active shadchanim. You can rest assured they would have plenty of people still banging down their doors (phones), and the few that would choose not to would be a welcome break for the shadchanim. Perhaps by being slightly “very slightly) less busy they might even enjoy 10 min of quiet time with their families each day.

It should be no different than the other expenses incurred in the dating process: rental cars, cleaners, parking, hairdressers, manicures??, entertainment, etc. Certainly people take all kinds of factors into account when deciding whether to continue to pursue a specific shidduch forward. Why do we suddenly get all jumpy when the idea is to pay the shadchan (less than the rental car).

jewishandworking22:

Would you consider a scenario where the boy and girl go out more than a couple of times simply a “silly suggestion” from a “yenta”? I beg to differ. Clearly it was on the mark and as such the shadchan did what can they can be expected to do.

Perhaps we can debate whether the threashold a real good idea is 3 dates 5 dates 10 dates (probably on different dating styles). But you would agree that not only when a date results in marriage has a shadchan provided a legitimate service. Ones unhappiness with the result – so long as it is not due to the shadchans not doing their job – should not diminish from the shadchans right to compensation.

Tzippi: The facts are the facts. Hiding our head in the sand is NOT going to make it go away.

Joseph: I am quite friendly with the very special people involved with NASI – which is how I came to become familiar with the issue. (hope this doesn’t constitute personal information)

Bemused: It’s nice to see that some people get it. I have actually encouraged various shadchanim to read this thread and they are flabbergasted by the attitudes people express here.

I disagree with you on one point and that is why should a shadchan NOT be compensated for all the time and effert involved when they go out 3/4/5 times and then break it off. The shadchan invested time and energy and deserves to be fairly compensated. There are many many fields where one pays for the time energy and skilll invested in providing the service, whether or not the result is what the parties wished for. The only determining factor is whether the the person providing the service did their role propely.

Shadchanim can NOT guarantee marriage. (perhpas our mistake lie in expecting shadchanim to get our children married???) All they can do is suggest appropriate ideas and put in the time and effort to bring that suggestion to fruition. Surely if the boy and girl chose to meet 3/4/5 times it was a very legit suggestion.

Why do they not got paid for that????

Another School:

2000 (27 yrs old) 6 still single out of 46 graduates=13%

2001 (26 yrs old) 6-30=20%

2002 (25 yrs old) 3-21=14.28%

2003 (24 yrs old) 9-30=30%

Total of girls who have been dating between 5-8 Yrs and still unmarried

24-127=18.89%