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I will name one and ONLY one because the question is absolute chutzpa – but for the sake of emes
Rav Dovid Shustal Shlita
cherrybim: pls explain what ur difficulty is. Is it the R”Y trying to help single girls? Is it NASI? Is it me? Is it because you think the whole concept of age gap is not accurate? Or do you not approve of the various attempts to close the age gap.
I honestly would love to have you on board
PY: The long term solution is in girls starting to date SLIGHTLY later and boys SLIGHTLY earlier. There is no need for them to be exact same age. Long term AVERAGE gap of one year is fine. For the short term w/o having implemented any MINOR structural changes yet the effective course of ages has been to have more close in age marriages which essentially accomplishes the same end.
Please note that not a single push has been made to the girls and their parents to push off dating – because they WON’T listen at this juncture. However if more boys marry girls 21-25 obviously fewer girls 19/20 will be getting married.
Artchill: there was no policy attached to the letter because one can not dictate marriage only encourage and thus facilitate more close in age.
Your point being??
FYI in response to a question of yours from a previous thread. The shadchan from shaar hatorah has recieved ZERO NADIR NOTHING from the NASI Project despite having made numerous close in age shidduchim. He chose not to apply for the grant even while it was active.
yishtabach shemo: what you are saying is very very nice. HOWEVER the boys are getting by and large with the present system. So please explain how that will help more girls get married. (I actually have a answer how it helps slightly, but only slightly).
cherrybim: Do you mean to call the 70 R”Y liars or hypocrites. If you are then you are treading in dangerous waters. I will not sit here and defend people who absolutely don’t need me to defend them. But YES plenty of them have and imy”h will continue to do so.
Cherrybim: what figures are you accusing are inflated?? Have you done any research??
Cherrybim: last I checked no one was forcing you to do anything to encourage close in age shidduchim but why are you so cynical. Especially in light of
a) 70 calling for it
b) Anecdotally (shadchanim/mothers of boys/ single girls etc) it DOES seem to be working.
Cherrybim I would follow the lead 70 R”Y in this area. Not saying you have to. HE did not make the reality that is today. HE allowed US to mess things up. We have no right to blame the Av Harachamim for problems that are self inflicted. And to say it’s HIS problem let HIM solve it while we sit back is frankly a cop out.
Cherrybim: With your line of thinking I Suppose you would close down Chai Lifeline, Bonei Oilam, Hatzalah and all the myriad of organizations in Klal Yisroel doing unbelievable work. After all. HE decides who should be sick. HE decides who should have children etc. etc. And those are areas that are NOT self inflicted.
Cherrybim: Correct a certain percentage of girls never had a shot. WHICH girls is anyone’s guess. Certainly money looks yichus etc. give certain girls an advantage over others. At the end of the day brainwashers or not. If there are 100 boys and 120 girls. Can’t get married. Not other way to slice it. Even if all had money looks etc, there are still 20 who can’t get married.
YW-Moderator (and PY): If PY means to say that through a gorel boys will be forced to marry close in age, than there is what to talk about. However so long as the boys 30+ are getting dates with 26 yr olds why in the world would they enter a goral. PY premise it there are just as many older boys as girls and the younger girls aren’t interested in the older guys and therefore perhaps the older guys would enter a goral with same age girls. I believe he is not living in reality.
However the attempt at creative solutions is where the community needs to go. Any and all effective solution to close the age gap should be on the table athough some will probaly get shoved under the table quickly (polygamy, goral). But you never now where the breakthrough idea might come from.
positiveaynayim: You hit the nail on the head. Hopefully through proper davening the Ribbono Shel Oilam will guide the community to implement the necessary and appropriate steps to alleviate the crisis. To think that the solution will come without OUR changing what we do, is to rely on a neis which is forbidden.
Next school
2000 (27 year old) 5-67=7.46%
2001 (26 years old) 9-81=11.11%
2002 (25 years old)7-77=9.1%
2003 (24 years old)12-86=13.95%
Totals 33-311=10.6%
PY: It is difficult to get data on boys since HS don’t keep good updated info. The only data that I have access to so far is BMG where 5 years after starting to date (equivalent of 24 year old girls) fewer than 2% are still single. In addition Shadchanim report not having to many older boys but that’s not a scietific method.
Seems like some people just want to avoid the issue. Unfourtnately cyncism is NOT going to make it go away.
just received
well known school – class of 1998 (29 years old) 16 single out of 107 graduates =14.95%
they started dating 10 years ago. This class just had a get together and were shocked at what they realized. This is not including 4/5 girls that seem to have fallen out of touch with the rest of the grade. They are not part of the 16.)
Haifagirl: so whats it’s gonna be, polygamy (w/o any backing from gedolim) or close the age gap. Until you come up with a handful of Gedolim supporitm your soap box of polygamy it’s just a waste of cyberspace.
Either way the goral isn’t gonna do much.
Edited
Not better than 70 R”Y. Besides the point. No one is telling the girls not to try to get married. The R”Y are just encouraging the boys to try to marry slightly older girls. Inevitably fewer younger will get married. If MM isn’t happy about that perhpas he should speak to those who signed.
PY: You have not responded to the basic problem in the goral and that is that there would not be enough male names for the female names. W/O solving that you haven’t solved much of anything.
Rav Avigdor Miller was niftar before the concept of age gap was known. You have NO way of knowing what his position would be be under the present situation. I notice MM that you like to qoute R”Y gedolim who are no longer with us.
Hard to set policy for the community based on Gedolim who are no longer here.
PY you write “so no system can invent a solution if the men simply don’t exist.”
Correct. And being that the case is such as has been discussed in the CR many many times, we therefore need to figure what happened that made the men simply not exist (AGE GAP) and alleviate that going forward.
PY, you failed to respond to a critical question
Just an example, continued from a different thread.
Another school:
2001(26 years old) 6 single -out of 38 Graduates=15.78%
2002 (25 years old) 4-42=9.52%
2003(24 years old) 9-62=14.5%
one problem with the goral. I assume only singles will be entered into the goral, correct?
Well there are gong to be far more females in the goral then males. What are you gonna do about that.
Another school:
2001(26 years old) 6 single -out of 38 Graduates=15.78%
2002 (25 years old) 4-42=9.52%
2003(24 years old) 9-62=14.5%
Go for it. Don’t be shy. For the record they have rejected it but perhpas if you approach them they will reconsider.
MM: for someone who is such a ardent supporter of livishe R”Y (i took a peek at some of your other threads – such as the importance of yiddish) it is quite out of your character to push an agenda – polygamy -that you very well know the Litvishe gedolim don’t support) Hmmmmm
mm: The polygamy idea is not being endorsed by the R”Y. Feel free to try your hand, but at this point they are not on board. Hence I only encourage the close in age suggestion.
please contact NASI I’m sure they would love to make use of your techie expertise. I believe your questions about the math were answered on those pages.
Cherrybim: not that you deserve a response, but I would be hesitant to disparage a project that has been endorsed by Rav Yackov Perlow, Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky Rav Ahron feldman and Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zatzal (and in case you will say prove it) it has been spoken and praised in very public forums by Rabbis Wacsman, Paysach Krohn, and Jonathan Rosenblum.
Clearly you have a ax to grind, may I ask what it is?
Dr. Pepper
Advertising is Expensive. The can’t put everything in every week. The Kol Korei was printed and is on Yeshiva worlds September 24 2009. (more signatures were added after the posting and printed in the paper)
760 is the number of close in age shidduchim that the NASI Proejct has been informed of since it’s inception a bit more than 2 years ago. NASI hasn’t set up a single couple as they are NOT shadchanim. They encourage people who set up shidduchim to keep the ages in mind and seek to implement ways to encourage more close in age shidduchim. Judging by feedback they have received, hundreds of shidduchim have happened that otherwise would not have been considered. This is first person testimony from boys, their mothers, girls and their mothers. (yeah fathers seem to not be to involved in this whole shidduch thingy).
The Ziknei Roshei Yeshiva who have been behind the Project from the gitgo are Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Yackov Perlow Rav Ahron Feldman and Ybclc Rav Shmuel Berenbaum.
NASI would like to lauch a website that has more than just the kol korei on it. If you have suggetions, please contact them. They value any and all input. All it will take is a email from you.
For those who have only heard of NASI from the YWCR who would expect them to donate. If you noticed there is no NASI fundraiser on YW. Readers of the Yated/Hamodia have been seeing and hearing about NASI from respected people like Rabbis Ehpraim Wacsman, Paysach Krohn, Jonathan Rosenblum (see this weeks yated page 81 where he mentions it again), and others for more than 2 years now. By many people NASI has achieved tremendous credibility. It it to those that the fundraiser is directed.
I hope I have answered your legit questions satisfactorily. If not, please contact NASI via email and I’m sure they will more than give you the time of day.
Nice to have you on board. If I could encourage you a bit more to close it a drop more. Boy 22-25 also should, when possible, be suggested to girls within a year or two of their age.
MM: Please don’t refer to close the age gap as “AZ’s Ideas”. 70 R”Y signed a Kol Korei to that effect. They deserve to be mentioned.
MM: Close the age gap does have a trickle up effect for the already older singles, but no doubt there are many older girls that close the age gap won’t be able to help.
As I wrote to our esteemed bein_hasdorim, Klal Yisroel needs people like you, please go make it happen. If all you plan on doing is blogging in cyberspace then i’m not sure the tachlis.
bein_hasdorim: you are obviously a sincere caring member of Klal Yisroel. Might I suggest that instead of just sharing your insightfull ideas in the CR, please do something about it. Klal Yisroel needs your help.
Seems like moist peope agree that age gap is part/root/primary cause of the shidduch crisis. Also seems like most people agree that close in age marriages will help at least in part. They may be other ideas that can help as well. Is there any reason NOT to continue to strongly encourge more close in age marraiges as that does seem to be taking hold.
Of course not to mitigate the other ideas being presented. I would just challenge those presenters to do something about their idea other than clog up cyberspace. Blogging is cheap. Let see some effective action. Put your money time and energy where your keystrokes are.
MM: Funny that you feel I/ haven’t made the case for age gap. Apparently 70 R”Y feel the case is a strong one, but perhaps the people who presented it to them did a better job than I have. That IS a definite possibility I’m just trying my best.
Tzippi: NASI is taken seriously- very seriously. Frankly they are the only ones who have done anything to alleviate the Shidduch Crisis somewhat over the last two years- (and I am proud to help somewhat by pushing their agenda in the CR)
The people who need to know- do know who is behind NASI. Try asking Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Yackov Perlow, Rav Ahron Feldman (along with Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zatzal) they gave their encouragement from the gitgo and continue to do so.
NASI prefers to let their actions and dedication speak for themselves-individual recognition really isn’t part of their game.
MM: I have failed to see the multitude of questions posed to the “talking points”
A) population growing a fast clip B”H
B) Age differential 3-4 commonplace
C) A+B = many girls not having a boy to marry. You for one haven’t raised a single question that would raise any doubt to this issue.
Regarding polygamy and the rabbonim: it wasn’t i who considered it in jest.
Ronsr: Regarding other countries, I do not have access to any hard data. I have heard that EY has a similar problem. Although the age differential there is not as great (becasue boys start dating a bit younger) the population growth is bli ayim harah faster than in the US so the problem is the same.
Additionally in EY with all the Shuvu and Lev La’chim etc students coming of age the community is facing a very serious issue. The girls From Shuvu and Lev lachim etc hit shidduchim at 19. Their male counterparts won’t be dating for another couple of years. Who are these girls going to marry????
mybat:
Who was named for the hundreds and hundreds of girls who have not gotten married. I hate to burst your naive bubble, but the bas kol of bas ploni to ploni does NOT guarantee that every jewish boy and girls will get married. We are seeing this with our very eyes, just look.
MM: The idea of polygamy has been brought up numerous times with various R”Y (in jest obviously) however as you and I well know they have never considered it as even a far fetched idea worth pursuing(nor do I to the extent that my opinion counts). I honestly don’t think you do either, but for some reason you have an ax to grind against either the NASI Project, me or the issue in general. That’s fine but again I can’t begin to fathom why you are wasting you time.
If you asked me why I think the R”Y are more inclined to encouraging close in age marriages rathre than pursue the polygamy route it is because,
1. The R”Y feel their is nor real downside short term or long term to more close in age marraiges. Polygamy will bring with it total upheaval of family life as we know it.
2. It is VERY realistic to think that continued progress will be made on more close in age shidduchim. It is unrealistic to think that polygamy will take hold in the frum community.
Truth be told I wouldn’t bother responding to this narishkite, but in the name of exploring all options I have.
Tzippi: have no fear I can take of myself.
mm: you ask
If I call NASI will they assist in this noble effort to help alleviate the age gap issue??
If the R”Y advising them will agree with your ideas (polygamy) they will absolutely join with you. To date the R”Y advising them do not agree with encouraging polygamy and it doesn’t look like they plan on changing their mind any time soon.
Cherrybim: these numbers where not put together FOR nasi. These numbers were realized way way before (3 years before) NASI was even a pipe dream.
MM:
Difference is 70 R”Y disagree with your HO.
MM: on a previous page you asked where was the information on the Arab society documented. Here it is.
The world Atlas of the Arab World- Geopolitics and Society.
Written by Rafie Boustani and Philippe Fargues
Copyright 1990
on page 50-51
Polygamy and Repudiaton of the wife (remarriage taking place more rapidly for the man) are both predicated upon a surplus of women in relation to men on the “marriage market”. In a society that encourage women to marry early and men to marry later, at any given time male candidates for marriage are older therefore less numerous then their female counterparts. Because of purely numerical constraints some women marry for the first time men who are not bachelors themselves because they (the men) are either divorced (repudiation) or married (polygamny).
The age difference between spouses is the quintessential cause of the paired institutions of polygamy and repudiation.
Both of the practices (polygamy and divorce) fed on large age differences between spouses.
Divorce and Polygamy jointly act to regulate a marriage market where the age difference between spouses has brought a surplus of women available for marriage.
For the record:
This information was not part of the Age Gap study done in our communities. I don’t even think the people who did the Age Gap study nor the people involved in the NASI project are aware of this interesting tidbit regarding the Arab world.
A friend of mine who knows I have encouraged the NASI agenda, told me about this information a couple of months ago.
Cherrybim: As an aside, why would you think that the people who are encouraging the close the age gap movement. Each and every one of them without a child anywhere the parsha of shidduchim would have a agenda?? I just don’t get your animosity. If you would like to debate the issue- that’s fair and square. But to think that they are dedicating their time energy and in many cases money for something which they stand to derive NO Direct personal benefit, why would they want to manipulte numbers people etc. I just don’t get you.
MM: If you think you can be successful in getting a Kol Korei regarding reinstating polygamy-go for it.
If your intent is to belittle the Kol Korei on the age gap issue, feel free. But why you are wasting you are time is beyond me.
Cherrybim: The numbers were not “made up”. As for the numbers where derived…
After speaking to one of the actuaries who conducted the study.
Growth Rate was computed based on comparing grade to grade growth in schools. This data was taken primarily from a study done by the Avi Chai foundation.
Additionally the growth rate was computed based on average family size. The average family size was deduced based on a survey undertaken for this purpose by professionals in a mathematical related field.
Should you want to sponsor a survey by a professional demographer i’m sure it will be most welcome. However, to date no substantive dissent to the data that was uncovered created a push for more research on the seemingly obvious notion of significant population growth.
Dating Ages: Was computed based on a survey conducted for this purpose by professionals in a mathematical related field.
Additionally (related specifically to the yeshivish community) information from BMG, the largest conglomerate of single dating age boys in the country, yielded an average starting dating age of 22.75+. Whereas girls typically begin dating a short time after returning from seminary which is approximately 19 years old.
As an aside: most people in the community find this theory to be self evident. If you have any specific issues with any of the findings please contact NASI and I’m sure they can put you in touch with the the professionals who did the research.
So Tzipppy asked for suggestions on the shidduch crisis:
1. re-instate Polgamy (pending serious endorsement from Gedolim)
2. Encourage more close in age marriages.
MM: Glad to be on the same team. You and Haifa girl work on the polygamy angle and I’ll continue on the close the age gap angle. No conflict here at all. Together we can really make a difference.
Tzippi: I think we all know that both haifagirl and MM are being facetious. But hey if the Gedolim endorse it fair enough. I think all would agree that such a major step would need backing from gedolim.
MM Haifa girl: You are more than welcom to go the encourage polygamy route as a method to alleviate the crisis, much Haztlacha.
I will continue to encourage the agenda that the Rosehi Yesiva who are advising the NASI project are suggesting.
cherrybim: the numbers have been presented/discussed in this very forum to death (see numerous earlier threads). I was not the person who conducted the studies and I am not a mathematician. Either look at the old threads or contact NASI and they will provide you with whatever data you are looking for. (their contact info is in this weeks YATED page 7)
Tzippy: Assuming boys graduate HS at 17 and start dating at 22 thats HS+5. If they graduate at 18 then it HS+4. I’m not sure for the purposes of our discusiion that it really makes a difference. Clearly the boys start dating at a considerably older age than the girls.
Dr. Pepper: There are presently 70 signatures on the Kol Korei. I believe if you pick up the Yated this week there is a ad in it with their contact info. They would love to have more manpower. If you know someone who would like them help build a website feel free to contact them. (They don’t pay salaries as they run on a very low budget).
tamazaball: The crisis is NOT about getting married at 27 instead of 19. It is about NEVER getting married.
MM: Reinstating polygamy would probably alleviate the dearth of available men. Somehow I don’t think that suggestion is going to be recommended by the Gedolim and R”Y any time soon.
For the record: in Muslim communities where the style is for there to be large age gaps between husband and wife they are the same communities where polygamy is more wide spread. This has been documented. Could you possible guess the connection between the two??
cherrybim:
You are being choleik on the resident expert mathematician of CR otherwise known as DR Pepper(s).
Jh22:
In right wing schools the girls start dating around 19 and boys at aprox 22.5, it’s just not a “scientific” study.
It seems like you don’t realize that number of older single girls dwarfs the numbers of older single boys.
I’m not sure what in the world the census you quoted has anything to do with our discussion. The question is not how many boys/girls there are in the community. The question is not how many boys/girls are born each year.
The question IS how many boys girls enter the dating pool each year.
So long as we agree on population growth and that girls start dating at 19 vs. 22.5 for boys we have significantly more girls than boys entering the dating pool and thus a very significant number of girls without anyone to match up with.
MM: you are hysterical. I actually know the people who spoke to many of the R”Y and discussed with them the numbers. But I guess you’re right. The Rabbonim probably suggested more close in age shidduchim for the fun of it not because of any numerical data suggesting that therein lies the key to alleviating the situation. HELLO. Anyone home??
JH22:
Point “B”: There is no scientific data on when boys and girls start dating. In “right wing” schools (I strongly dislike such classifications but) for lack of a better term it is pretty clear that the overwhelming majority of girls begin dating shortly after returning from seminary HS+1. Whereas the boys don’t start dating until 22/23 which HS+5. This is not an ABSOLUTE rule just a very very common practice. Do you deny this?
Point “c”: Problem is subjective. In my world and in the world of the R”Y who signed the letter the present situation with many many girls having no shot to get married- that’s a huge problem.
I’m just curious why it seems that so many more girls seem to get the “short end” than the boys.
In summation: you write “I truly do believe that their is enough boys for girls, and vice versa.”. you are WRONG, no two ways about it. This isn’t about beliefs- it’s about reality.
Jh22:
In other words you think that the 60 R”Y were hoodwinked into believing
A) that the population is growing considerably b”h.
B) girls start dating a good couple of years before the boys
C) that A)+B) equals a HUGE problem.
I’m just wondering where do you personally stand on A, B and C.
Dr. Pepper
The contact info has been in the paper numerous times. Call Yated/ Hamodia they will be able to provide with the phone number/email address.
I don’t think I am allowed to put a email address in the CR
(if NASI had enough funding they would have a website – but they don’t.)
Dr Pepper: well said.
Total number of graduates are obvious from Yearbooks that the schools have.
Status of individual girls are only being counted when definite. Girls that “have fallen off the radar” are being counted as married. (resulting in a more conservative-lower percentage- final tally).
artchill
1) FASLE
2) FALSE
3) FALSE
1) false-No Nasi person ever wrote that. What you claimed in a earlier post (months ago) was totally taken out of context. (I actually asked the person who you quoted). What was stated was that It is necessary to inform people of the situation EVEN if it scary. NO ONE is making up false info. To write that a misquote that you made up is what irks people – is frankly ridiculous
2) false- The monetary incentive was designed to put the issue on the map. When people went to vorts/chassunos they would inevitable talk about the ages since money was on the line. The financial incentive was to date the single greatest factor in putting the issue on the map.Where on earth did you dream up that it was designed to benefit shadchanim. The singles benefited by puting the issue on the map
3) false. a) There is no enrollment fee. b) It is not aimed at girls (the add specifically doesn’t mention girls or boys). c) NASI does not redd shidduchim. other than these mistakes you are on the money. Pathetic.
It is a simple fundraiser stating B”H the NASI Project has been unbelievably successful. With more help from the community we could do even more.
EDITED
Tzippi: Sounds like common sense to me.
Cherrybim:
Finally, the school alumni data, is NOT what the age gap concept it based on. It was based on various studies one of which was a study of class sizes that showed younger grades being larger than the older grades. Perhaps you will argue that schools don’t have accurate date on the number of students in their classes. The alumni data is being put together simply as a way of showing the community how serious it is NOT for proving the concept.
Cherrybim:
“Also, I showed you the reason to doubt the numbers that you provided.”
Regarindg JTA I have no idea what happened in a interview with the JTA or who they spoke to. What I do know is that they were considering writing a mishmash of an article on the shidduch crisis and NASI was advised that there was no benefit in being part of a article that makes a cholent of the issue.
As for the Kol Korei, you are free to feel whether it’s effective or not. Those that put the time into it felt it was worth the effort. If you think the goal was to establish a Takana, of course it won’t work. If the goal was to make a clear statement on the issue thus encouraging more close in age shidduchim then it can certainly be considered a effective letter. In addition it was a opportunity for individual R”Y to make a statement to their talmidim in public (and likely to be followed up in private) on the issue.
One question to you. Why the animosity on the issue. Have you personally been hurt by the close the age gap awareness.