GAW:

Glad to see you agree that the present system is broken.

Now we can discuss ways to change and improve. The idea of the OP is a great one. Obviously we can always look to tinker and change up a bit. But I have no doubt that if/when the new idea slowy becomes popular it is the singles who will benefit most.

It can be tried on a limited scale. One rov in one shul in one community. As word get around of the way they treat shadchanim you can be sure the singles in that shul will be getting far more attention from shadcahnim (professionals and non professionals). It will then take off in a big big way.

Let work together to help them out.

Hello99

When Shadchanim get paid like real estate borker for completing a shidduch then we can talk. A broker get (in the vicinity of) 4% of the sale. For a $600,00 home thats a cool $24,000. For a home half that price it’s still nice 12g. If all shadchanim were reimbursed like that (professional or not) then we wouldn’t be having this discusion.

Tzippi: I DID speak to Rabboinim who are NOT NASI signatories and they are very on board. Coming to a community near you….. when individual rabbonim will mention it publicly.

Just like age gap. New Ideas take some time until people will realize how obvious it is….

GAW: The only service a shadcahn can provide to the singles is getting them quality dates (and helping with the technical, advising were asked and approprite).

That is what they should get paid for.

It usually has nothing to do with the shadchan whether they go out 3 times and drop it or 8 times and get engaged, other that frequently the longer it goes the more time the shadchan has to spend on it.

It’s high time we appreciated and compensated them for their time and effort.

Jphone: the crisis will go as it presently does.

Boys get married,

Girls remain single.

maybe one day…..

A600KiloBear:

NOT by a long shot.

BUT I HAVE been in contact with many many shadchanim over the last two years and it so pashut what is being written here. Speak to some ppl who are involved and THEN comment.

I personally have redd fewer than 5 shidduchim in the last 10 years- NO I am not anything near even a fly by night shadchan

Estherh:

Very very nice, but still not there. This is NOT about hakaras hatov (although that would be nice). This is fair compensation for time and effort spent!

Tzippi: I would like to ask a question. How many couples have you set up and gotten to a fifth date in the last year. Thougt so!

Sure some go easy, like when you call the plumber and he fixes the problem in 5 minutes and bills you $100. The vast majority take much time and effort. We aren’t even talking minimum wage here!

How many shidduchim break off because the girl will have to send a outfit to the cleaenrs for the third date, or the boy will have to rent a car? why when we talk about JUST compensation do we start getting all protective. Might it be that we have a very very skewed look on what shadchanim do for our children???

GAW: I didn’t say it’s a communal obligation. Its a individuals obligation like their plumber and gardener. Who pays for the girls clothes? who pays for the boys tolls? Why suddenly when we are talking about fair compensation for time and effort are we suddenly so poor.

How many shuls are there? how many shadchanim for hire are there? it doesn’t work. We need to mobilize the forces at large. Any community where the parents start paying the shadchanim for having successfully set up # dates will see a BOON in the number of shidducim redd.

Its NOT just about the $$ although that certainly is nice. Its very clear that when people pay for something they appreciate it more and shadchanim (professionals and non-professionals) will cater to those who don’t step all over them.

youdontknowme:

I still don’t think you get my point.

When someone tutors your child, do you leave a tip to get better service next time- or do you pay them because they invested time and energy into helping your child.

Who pays if it breaks off???? whoever went out on the date (or the parents). The service the shadchan provides was arranging appropriated dates (thus paying after 3 dates as opposed to one date).

Our whole paradigm is off base- and it’s high time we corrected it.

The issue at hand is whether the present system of treating shadchanim like brokers is working or not.

Clearly it is not. Shadchanim are overwhelmed and parents/singles are frustrated.

This is NOT a question of Hakaras Hatov. This is a question of recognizing that if a shadchan has set up your child and it went to 3 dates then they have spent time and energy – and deserve to be compensated as much.

NO, a shadchan has not right after the fact to ask for such compensation. The point is that we as a community need to change and start paying them (proffesional or not) for the valuable service they provide.

As an aside, any community that instituted this can rest assure that they beging to get far more attention from proffesional and non proffestional shadchanim. when peoples effoers are appreciated and compensated for they are far more likely to work on your behalf.

This would help out of town communties far more than hiring one specific shadchan or trying video conference dating.

As and aside, I would venture to say that none of the above posters have had 5 shidduchim go out since succos. It’s obvious that the posters are unfamiliar with the unbelievable work involved in gettng dates set up. Please tell me I’m wrong….

youdontknowme:

Of coursse every shidduch is its own parsha. BUT boys (for the most part) can get away with saying no for any and all reasons and they will still get plenty of chances. If girls do it – they do it at their own risk. That’s just a direct derivative of the inequity of numbers

Lets take 3 guesses why by these singles events the girls are more than reaady to come and PAY and it is very difficult to get the boys to come (and thus simple economics dictates that if they don’t get significant discounts they won’t come)

Here’s a hint: there are far more available girls than guys thus the girls have great difficulty getting dates and the boys have dates a-plenty

Anyone wonder how that’s possible????

For the record single’s events help-somewhat, there are far more effective measures that need to take place, and they will, when the community gets around to it..

Mazal 77 & potsandpans:

Where are the boys???

MARRIED!!!!!!

There are simply far far more girls in the dating pool than boys…..

The Reason??

(primarily) AGE GAP

That’s why at events girls are on a waitng list and they have to beg the boys to show….

The overwhelmings number of shidduchim are not made by shadchanim. They are made by friends neighbors etc. Due to the inexquity of numbers the boys by and large have many shidduch opportunities (obviously there are exceptions but by and large) and therefore have no major need to go to shsadchanim they do not know.

The girls and their their parents are pulling their hair out and they will go to anyone and everyone in the hopes that it will result in a solid suggestion + a yes from a boy and hopefully a mazal tov.

JW22: I’m not sure what circles you are in but the boys by and large are getting married and they are getting married quickly. A study of Boys HS makes this point clearly. It is not yet complete but unless something changes drastically in the few schools that have not yet been vetted it will clear for all to see. The comparison of Boys alumni dating 5-10 years and still single vs. Girls alumni dating 5=10 years and still single is staggering. Stay tuned…..

Yw mod-42

I just saw the list. There are a toatal of five names re: shidducim. I didn’t realize you were making a joke. I thought there were hundreds and you were basing you assessment on that….

“It seems that there are 5 boys for every one girl-We have a Shiduch Crisis here! “

Where have I heard that before????

AGE GAP AGE GAP AGE GAP

Close The AGE GAP Solve The Crisis

How about a thread listing reasons why it is beneficial for boys to date and marry girls their own age i.e. slightly older girls as opposed to girls who just came back from sem.

gaw: of course money plays a role like looks like yichus like evertyhting else. The GORILLA in the room is the inequity of numbers. And that CAN be alleviated greatly!!

melechalmaklo

If 700 boys come a year and 5 years left there are 17 boys, clearly $$$ is NOT causing the crisis. It is simply a derivative because we live in a takers world. If the boys have the hammer they have the ability to take advantage. Even out the numbers and the money problem get greatly alleviated.

melechalmaklo:

Regrading the numbers there were 17 age 27, 17 age 28 and a small handful older

Haifa girls: By far the overwhelming majority of boys in BMG are 21-25 probable more like 21-24, but I don’t have up do date numbers.

Tzippi: The answer to your question is to frightening to contemplate. In ner yisroel there are 6 boys (maybe a couple more) who are single and over 26. Certainly at a certain point boys leave BMG and go elsewhere or to work. But at 27 (less than five years after arriving) VERY few have left, which is why i choose to use that age as the barometer.

When I wrote PHD i was referring to PAPA HAS DOUGH.

There should be tons of yeshivish boys sitting and waiting for th Rich father in law and it just aint so.

Now Please go back and read my post from the previous page.

Totals of 15 schools across North America girls between the ages of 24-27 (dating 5-8 years)

594 single out of 3680 Graduates=16.14%

This is CRAZY!!!

This is a conservative number, as girls that couldn’t be tracked were listed as married (which is actually an inaccurate way of doing the statistic, they should have been deducted from the number of graduates)

melechalmaklo: according to your theory there should be a boatload of older single boys sitting around waiting for a PHD. It’s just not so. Surely boys are able to make demands etc. but that is a derivative of the crisis not a cause. Ask Tzippy she’ll explain it to you.

MM: In addition your write

“The R”Y want to help older unmarried girls. So they suggest close in age marriages. And they suggest shadchanim provide more help for older girls.”

That is actually incorrect. The R”Y want to alleviate the problem going forward, not simply to help those that are presently single. Read the letter, that’s why they make a strong point to mention that age gap is the primary source of the crisis. I know this because because I know the people who approached the R”Y.

MM: regrading your comment about Rishonim etc. I wasn’t there and I don’t have access and neither do you have access to data population growth/standard age gap data from then.So i’m not quite sure what your argument is.

Or are you assuming that they had large population growth, assuming that they had large gaps, and assuming that they had no shidduch crisis, and therefore trying to “prove” that age gap doesn’t cause a shiddcuh crisis.

Please educate me because i am having difficulty following your train of thought (if there is one other than to be argumentative)

MM: You have not answered why it is that the only opinion you seem to care is Rav Millers who conveniently isn’t alive know to personally give us his first hand account. As soon as I am able to have a conversation with Rav Cohen I will let you know bl”n. It is quite interesting that we have not heard from a SINGLE Gadol, NOT even ONE who presently espouses what you are claiming Rav Miller Zatzal would argue today. Which should leave us to believe one of two things.

A) They don’t think even Rav Miller would still say it.

B) They don’t think there’s any contradiction between what they are suggesting and girls trying their hardest to get married as soon as they can. The 70 R”Y didn’t say a word to addressing the girls.

C) Even if Rav Miller would say it, and somehow that contradicts what the R”Y are suggesting, then obviously NO one else seems to follow that position. Rav Miller was cerainly a adom gadol with a right to his opinion (I have no right to even right this as he doesn’t need my haskama) but if 70 R”Y disagree I think it’s safe to call such an “alleged” opinion a daas yachid.

Please explain what you are so adamant against. Is it the definiton of the problem (as some of your arguments seem to suggest) or is it the suggested solution( as other arguments you put forth).

On your completely side point, a rosh kollel Whose father is a survivor has told me many times that the Rabbonim posted signs asking for Mechila. I will try to get details but I think you would agree that this isn’t a critical point of discussion for now. I think you also agree that that was a period when the Av Harachamim chose to blind the eyes of Klal Yisroel.

Cherrybim: I have no doubt that the 70 signers probably did NOT all have the exact same intention in signing the document. It is silly to think they all has the exact same kavana. What is clear is what they all singed to. Whether as a directive (language doesn’t sound like that). Whether as a request – perhaps, as a attempt to raise awareness perhaps (language sounds a bit more than that). To answer you question one would have to approach each and every one DIRECTLY and ask him.

What they CLEARLY all stated was that AGE GAP is the primary cause of the problem. I don’t think there is any wiggle room on that point- DO YOU??

1. We don’t know what Rav Miller would say. If speculating what he would say vs. 70 R”Y clearly stating there position is a shaveh b’shave machlokes, than I have nothing to debate with you.

2. All I wrote is that Rav Miller was unaware of the Age Gap when he wrote that.

If you want my take on Harav Millers Zatzals point- here it is.

A. No one is telling girls NOT to try to get married at 19. It has always been that some do and some don’t. As a result of more close in age marriages hopefully fewer will get married at 19 than had been doing so in the past. Any individual girl should do whatever she thinks is in her best interest which is why if you bother to read the letter from the R”Y it does NOT address the girls or their families. If going forward instead of say isntead of 60% of the girls getting married at 19 we find ourselves that 45% are getting married at 19 and the rest at 20-22. I guess the R”Y thinks that’s a good thing.

Had Rav Miller been presented with the situation who is to say where he would stand. MM just for you I will try to ask Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen (Rav Millers grandson for his take on this issue).

3. NOT AT ALL. However to think that a qoute from Rav Miller is a refutation of what 70 clearly stated is frankly ridiculous.

4. See what I wrote before #7

5. There is NO reason to think this was around at the time of the rishonim and achronim. BUT 70 Years ago a terrible tragedy happened that the gedolim clearly stated the Av Harachmim blinded them from seeing what was developing and thus in many cases offering what turned out to be incorrect advice. To the point that when they realized what took place they asked mechila.

6. When is history has there ever been large population growth coupled with rigid dating patterns? I don’t think you have any evidence at all. Especially since before the 20th century women by and large weren’t healthy enough to have so many children. (although on this point I am NO expert.

MM: your arguments seem to me to be relatively baseless. Please explain which of the basic premises of age gap you don’t like. Or is it that you don’t like the suggested solution???

Another School

’98 (29 yrs old) 1 single -12 Graduates 8.3%

’99 (28 yrs old) 4-23 17.4%

’00 (27 yrs old) 5-30 16.66%

’01 (26 yrs old) 6-25 24%

’02 (25 yrs old) 3-19 15.78%

’03 (24 yrs old) 11-34 32.35%

Total 30-143=21%

Artchill: I apologize, there was one point I didn’t respond to-ignoring other attempts to suggest another possible causes.

a) when 70 R”Y sign on to something being the primary cause that should motivate people to focus on that issue. Especially since it is clearly identifiable and eminently solvable (see jonathon rosenblum article in this last weeks Yated).

b) there are certainly other factors at play that determine whic girls get married. There are certainly boys who don’t get married and if they did then obviously that many more girls would get married. However the other causes to the best of my knowledge fit into two basic categories.

1. Dervitaves of the numerical imbalance, e.g. out of town, tall girls, fair girls, poor girls, difficult family situations, etc. etc. in a boys market obviously these girls will have a tougher time. Solve the numbers and these girls get a much fairer shake. Without solving the numbers it’s going to awfully difficult to help these girls.

2. Specific issues related to individuals. There are certainly people that had plenty of quality dates (mostly boys but probably some girls fit this category as well) and are still not married. That INDIVIDUALS not yet being marreid is certainly not numbers related and each person is a yachid with their own situation. Even so, for the girls in this category as they get older (i will not speculate on a specific age) the same girl who had plenty of dates at 20 finds herself in a very difficult situation when she is closer to 30. THAT does have to do with numbers inequality.

The numbers issue is so overwhelming and far reaching and SOLVABLE that I have chosen to focus my energies on that.