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what the intention of the ad is.???
what are you referring to…
The letter printed was exactly what he signed w/o a change. What advertisement are you reffering to. There is nothing else in the name of the 70 RY other then that letter.
Please clarify.
As to your comment re: the system in place:
you are 100% correct-and it is being worked.
However, unless people understand -as you do- that the system is creating a tragedy of epic proportions, we will not be successful in changing it. First the community needs to be educated as to what the problem is (age gap created by our present system) Then we can focus on solutions.
Tzippi:
I agree with you.
The writer you are referring to made a absolutely totally incorrect assumption as to the reason for the 150@3 proposal and then proceeded to debate his own silly assumption.
oomis: what you fail to understand is that a shadchans “job” in NOT to get a couple engaged. That is not something a shadchan can do.
All a shadchan can do is suggest appropriate matches and offer guidance and encouragement along the way (when necessary) if a coule goes at 3/4 time the shadchan HAS done their JOB
speakthetruth:
Just curious how many times people you know have gone out with the same guy 3/4 times. If you only pay after going out 3/4 times its not that expensive.
“I just went to a shadchan and they had 3 binders of girls and 1 of boys.”
I wonder why??????
Age gap anyone??
hello99:
“This does not seem to be true:”
Contact NASI they will show you the data thas has recently been culled from more than 29 girls HS across the country
Maturity:
their is no data that 23 year old boys marrying 22 year old girls instead of 19 year olds is causing shalom bayis issues. As for when boys start to date-that should be a decision the boys makes together with his parents (and mentor/rebbi) what it shouldn’t depend on is a system for when he comes back from EY. Some will start earlier, some later. All should start when it is right for the individual.
Jphone:
You are on the money!
Encouraging close in age shidduchim in general is the beginning of the answer -NOT the end. Clearly structural change is needed that will have boys dating SLIGHTLY younger and girls SLIGHTLY older. This is being worked on as we speak.
However every little bit helps. and has been helping in the last two years. Say what you want, the facts on the ground indicate that 23 year old boys are far more ready to consider dating girls their own age then they would have done in the past.
THAT is a VEYY positive move, if not a total solution.
As an aside, I’m not sure who your R”Y is, but the letter he signed clearly states “Ha’siba Ha’i’kari” (translated primary cause). Perhaps you didn’t understand what he told you.
oomis1105: Quick question,
How many hours did you last week working on shidduchim. 5, 10, 15.
I’m just curious…..
The people I know (not “professionals”) spend minumum 8 hours A DAY. I guess it’s nice to get invited to the simcha when they get engaged. It’s also nice to be shown that all the work you put in and didn’t result in a shiddcuh is also appreciated and valued.
Just curious …….
Squek:
“The current accepted structure for compensating a shadchan is similar to a broker. The shadchan, like a broker,”
Correct
And it clearly isn’t working as evidenced by the frustration that singles find themselves in and the abuse shadchanim suffer.
Change is necessary (but until it becomes the norm no one is obligated by a halacha standpoint).
My point just was, when you pay nothing-expect nothing.
positiveaynayim:
Amen:
and Please remember “you get what you pay for”.
when you pay nothing-please expect nothing.
Anything one get in terms of proper attention from shadchanim is above and beyond what is coming to them (both for boys and girls).
hello99
#1 IF 100% of girls were married at 25 there would be NO discussion. The problem is that at 29 years old (having dated 10 years) 10%+ of girls still single.
THAT’S a HUGE problem.
#2 There is absolutely no data whatsoever that the close in age shidduchim that have taken place over the last two years have any more shalom bayis issues than that which is unfortunately considered regular in our community. If anything they are likely to be better marriages (if only because of the numerous brachos from various gedolim re: the issue).
In fact the present situation where the boys hold all the cards is in itself very harmful for marriage. Evening out the playing field and dating on equal footing will itself go a very long way towards reducing shalom bayis issues down the road.
Hello99: That is a very important and scary number. you would due the community a tremendous favor if you did serious research and tracked similar stats from schools across the country and tried to determine what it going on. Is that school an anomaly or is that the stat for many schools.
I’m not quite sure what in the world this has to do with my agenda of that last couple of months regarding age gap….
Jphone:
Precisely because boys 19,20,21 aren’t dating is the reason we have this crisis. Girls at that age are – and boys are not. Seems like you are beginning to get it.
In other words you believe that there are just as many older boys out there as girls.
Well well well.
The Data from the girls HS Alumni has been collected. The data from the boys HS Alumni is in the process of being collected.
Here’s one school for starters (the first one in so far)
Boys that have been dating between 5-10 years
240 graduates- 8 still single= 3%
The girls schools polled form similar communities were on average 13% still single
As more boys HS data becomes available I will be glad to share
just to make sure no one is wearing blinders..
jphone:
If the problem is the lack of “good boys” as u suggest (due to failures in the chinuch system). Then there should be a boatload of “flawed guys” out there, equqal in number to the older girls.
Buddy- It just aint so.
I therefore ask.
Who are are the “flawed guys” marrying??
Jothar:
Thank you very much for explaining eloquently how the Age Gap (Numbers problem) directly impacts the entire shidduch process.
Boys choice of girls = booming economy
Girls choice of boys= steep recession
Thus boys with “issues” taken anyway.
hello99: Aha. In other words you have discovered that the 19 year olds are all normal and the 22 year olds all have issues).
EDITED
Hello99:
Since you claim the girls are single because they have “issues” that preclude them from getting married.
Can I ask a simple question
Who are the boys marrying?
There should loads of normal regular older guys (basically equal in number to the older single girls) except that the girls are single becuase they have “issues” and the boys guys, Nebach no one for them to marry.
Who did the boys marry?????
Jphone: So now the question
Why don’t shadchanim just ask for it straight out?
For the same reason why even when they complete a shidduch they don’t make any specific requests, and they certainly don’t say up front what they charge if it goes through.
Why do you think they don’t??
I’ll give you a hint.
1. Read this blog and take a hint how shadchanim are thought of
2. They are not businessman. They don’t do it to make money. That’s not to say they don’t deserve and expect to get paid. Thus they get stepped on.
Just yesterday I was speaking to a well known shadchan who has recently COMPLETED more than 8 shidduchim that’s more than 16 families.
How many of them have been so kind as to give shadchanus???
NOT even Five
You think every shidduch that goes through gives shadchanu????
All I’m asking is that everyone should honestly ask the question. And the questin needs to be asked for 3/4 dates NOT just for engagements.
The original poster threw out an arbitrary amount, nothing hard and fast.
Why are we taking such advantage?????
Why are we so selfish???
Jphone:
If someone stood outside an old age gome from 7 am till 1 am every day of the week and was dedicated to helping people cross the street.
If when they go to a wedding they get called they quickly run right back to the corner and help them cross.
If they can’t do homework with their children because the phone rings incessantly from people begging them to help the old lady cross the street.
YES I humbly think such a person deserves compensation. And those that benefit from the service provided ought to ask themselves how they should compensate them.
If it was my mother was always being helped by this person I know I would WANT to compensate them for there tremendous dedication to helping my mother cross the street.
Jphone: wouldn’t you???
I am advocating that peoplel who contuously give of themselves day after day after should be compensated for their time and efferot.
Yes
Jothar: Saying leftover girls have issues is an absolutely subjective statement. I have probably spoken to more shadchanim than you can count. Do they claim that the girls have more issues than the boys??? because that what you are implying and there is no basis for that.
Tzippi:
It’s very important for you to point out that you drive someone once in a while and you don’t have an opportunity to make 1500 on that chesed. Point well taken-(are you serious???)
For the record: the vast majority of people whose children date 4,5,6 times and then stops. The next morning they call up the shadchan (maybe say thank you) and ask so nu do you have anyone else for my us. Fowers or gift certificates maybe 1 out of 40, maybe!
Its time we woke up and put ourselves in the shadchans shoes!!
My parents probably did what most people did then, and I was young and dumb and didn’t know better. (truth is I didn’t date much). That doesn’t make it right and its high time this changed.
Does that answer your question…
tzippi: I appreciate your concern but don’t worry it’s not on my shoulders. As I posted earlier, Coming to a community near you..
GAW: I don’t understand what
“A list with dates or money back would be better as well” means
“I know of the FT solution from” do you mean Far Rocakway solution??
I speak of appropriate compensation that should be as much a part of a normal living expenses as everything else. Why is it hurting the poor. They are paying for a service they received.
Certainly for those who absolutely can’t – they won’t- much like those who can’t don’t pay the same going rate for many other things, including paying shadchanim on a completed shidduch. But since when is the standard created by those who can’t.
Last I checked, the local grocery – who certainly is extremely helpful for those who “can’t” – they don’t discount their entire store. Nor does the electrician/plumnber/tutor etc. Why suddenly are we giving the shadchanim the cold shoulder???
Or perhaps it’s because it’s been this way that they have been taken advantage of-why rock the boat.
THAT is a unacceptable answer..
Hiring a private advocate is a whole different ballgame and those that want to (and can) should. Girls over 21 probably have enough of their own money to do it. Its a personal call. Want to help your child/yourself get married hire someone who can help. Sounds like a plan to me.
hello99:
“I know many older girls who couldn’t get married if they had 100 boys to date”
Hard to believe since you aren’t a navi.
In any event there are most likely similar numbers of boys/girls who wouldn’t get married event if they had 100’s of dates. If anything there would be more males in that category than females-as the gemara attests.
“tav l’meisav tan du, mi’l’meiysav ar’milu”
And yes- Mentors
hello99: I have not called anyone in particular a pig. I have stated that it is high time we stopped taking advantage of shadchanim and thinking they owe us everything, when in actuality they owe us ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!
If it was taken in any other light I apologize.
I will refrain from using that comment going forward
ASK THE QUESTION
Tzippi: I’m curious as to your answers to the questions I asked you in a earlier post regarding your dedication to your friend, and your (incomprehensible) comparison to shadchanim
Hello99:
You are correct that the age gap concept primarly is a help going forward.
However, there is a trickle up effect as well. If 25 year old boys marry 24 year old girls girls. Then the 28 year old boys will more likely marry close to their age and not the 24 year olds
Mentors are definitely a help for many individuals it just doesn’t solve the macro, it helps the micre but EVERY single person it helps it a entire universe.
Tzippy: Actually the going rate for a completed shidduch seems to be 1,000 to 1,500 each side, but it varies greatly on community and parents ability.
That non withstanding.
People are more than welcome to have this reservations about 3dated/$150. No one should do what they are not comfortable doing but people need to
ASK THE QUESTION- Don’t just be a chazer
Justin2:
It is great to hear from someone who gets it.
Re: Paying a fee to sign up with them. So the girl pays $$ to add her name to a list with 2,000 other girls and there are 500 boys in the database (very common numbers of shadchanims databases). What has the girl gotten for her $$.
I am aware of a organization or two that is trying to do this but it doesn’t work. Unless they charged a ridiculous sum of money that would enable hiring (paying real salaries) to hire enough full time shadchanim to deal with all the girls in the database.
Any one individual shadchan can not foucs on more than 6-7 girls. They may redd a whole bunch of girls shidduchim. But to focus and make a priority, 6-7 is the max.
Go do the math. 2000 girls in a database means minumum 200 shadchanim to ensure focus on each of the girls. 200x 30g (a meager salary) = $6,000,000. Divide that by 2000 girls in the database = 3,000 per girl
I don’t think girls are gonna pay 3,000 to put their name in a database….
Oh – and where are you going to find the 200 shadchanim who are ready to work full time…
FYI- I do think individual girls should track down a shadchan (professional or not) and offer $3,000 (they can probably offer 1,500 to 2,000) and contract them to focus on them. I define focus that a shadchan who focuses on a indivudual that is (for lack of a better term) “marketable”- the shadchan can produce 3-4 quality dates per. That is the nature of the present shidduch situaltion as we have it.
YES americais over is correct, Money talks. and individual girls should look to hire private advocates as that will give them a better shot of getting quality dates and thus getting married.
jphone what in the world are you talking about.
americaisover: Money talks????
Is realizing that i should pay a nominal fair compensation for service provided, in the guidelines of money talks – as in bribing. We are not talking about paying to get attention, we are talking about renumeration for service PROVIDED!!
GAW: Why do you say it will not help the people in need.
if it
A. Enc9ourages more people to get involved in shidduchim
B. Encourage people to redd to slightly older and just look for the “low hanging fruit” then it most certainly WILL help those who need it most.
GAW: NO one is creating a chiyuv mamon. That can only happen if it becomes a minhag which it clearly is not yet. However people need to ask themselves the question.
And the question should not be how do I show a token of appreciaton, but How do I compensate them for the service they have done for me and my child.
If the individual parent answers that an appropriate compensation is a card/flowers/box of chocolate. So be it. BUT ask the question.
I have never heard of these people(OOT?), Which people have you never heard of
Richards Lewenstein and Levy??
I’m not sure what country or circles you travel in. If you travel in the lakewood circles (as your last post indicated) and you haven’t heard of them then you must be on a different planet.
Tzippi: it’s obvious that you haven’t. Althouh I’m not sure what qualifies as a pro shadchan. How about someone who spends hours a day but doesn’t ask for anything when they make a shidduch. whatever the get is fine by them.
Is that a pro or not.
The ovewhelming majority of busy shadchaim fit that catogory.
FYI: I’m not sure what you mean by nudniks. These peoples phones are ringing non stop from Different people calling. Its not the same mother calling 100x a day. Its 100 different mothers…..
americaisover:
two points
1. a shadchans job is NOT to get them engaged. No one can really believe that is in the hands of a shadchan. What a shadcahn can do is to suggest and arrange an appropriate match. (3/4 dates certainly qualifies for that).
2. When was the last time you saw a contractor harrased at a wedding , called at 1 am, called sat night, etc etc. to come run over just for a second and give me a estimate.
I challenge anyone who is a close friend to any semi busy shadchan to tell inform the CR that from their experience what I am writing is not true..
jphone:
Shadchanim by and large don’t “join” the profession. They start out because they happen to make a shidduch or two. People start asking them to help and they feel bad saying no. Before they know it, it takes over their lives. They don’t just quit because they feel that the community needs it so desperately – and they are right.
Try speaking to a couple of semi-busi shadchanim….. its obvious that you haven’t done that.
As one shadchan who is following this thread (but out of disgust has declined to comment)
Let’s have Richards, Levy, Lewenstein etc etc etc. Take a month off. No phone calls, no suggestions, no meetings, no redding.
See how the community reacts then.
Some cynics will say oh that would be great.
Anyone will a child in the parsha will quickly run and beg them please please don’t…….
Joshar:
Call it what you want.
Without a numercial imbalance the vast majority of these girls would be married – just like their male counterparts (with the same “narishkeiten”) are married.
Tzippi:
It is very kind of you that you drive a friend, trully a chesed.
I’m curious
Is it one friend or do you have 100 freinds calling you every day to drive them?
Do you do it from 7 am to 1 am on a consistent basis?
When you go to a wedding do it prevent you from speaking to your friends or dancing with the chosson/ Kallah?
Does it prevent you from having even a semblance of family life?
Does your friend call you up demanding why you haven’t returned her phone call or driven her everwhere she needs to go, because after all you “owe” it to her?
I’m just asking……..
Tzippi:
It is not the parents of the boys/girls job to determine whether the shadchan should do it as a free chesed or get some fair reimbursement.
You know it’s also a chesed to fix someones electrical problems, tutor their child etc. when someone does something for us (especially at quite a significant cost to them in terms of time and evergy) and we assume they should do it as a chesed we are being chazerim!!
certainly there are times when it is normal to assume that it is achesed. Re: shidduchim and shadchanim that time is FAR FAR gone. Try spending one afternoon it the house of a semi busy shadchan and then tell me that its even worth contemplating that they shouldn’t be fairly compensated.
How have we become so so so selfish????
It is obvious to me that you have no friends who are even semi busy with shidduchim. Spend one afternoon/evening in the home of a typical semi busi shadchan and you will sing a VERY VERY different tune.
Tzippi: Both sides should think long and hard about what is fair to do for someone who looked out for their precious child and
1. came up with an appropriate idea (they went out 3 or 4 times)
2. Worked (many times many hours) to get have both parties agree to the suggestion)
3. spent time (in many cases hours on end) helping to arrange the dates, speaking to both sides after the dates etc etc.
This has as much to do with the community as paying for ones private electric bill!!
Why are we such chazerim thinking it it coming to us?????
A shadchan owes any individual girl boys or their parents
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ZILC – get it???
Other than to not be negligent which by and large the overwhelming number of shidduchim by both professional and non professional shidduchim are sincere suggestions NOT attempts to deceive.
I don’t think even KiloBear trully believes that is is widespread.
Dear KiloBear: If you do make such a claim please support it before you are motzei shem ra on the many many shadchanim who have devoted their lives and sacrificed any semblance of privacy and personal life to help the singles in our community come get married.
I would be impressed if year in year out you can come up with 10 situations of what can be called deliberate misconduct and shalom bayis problems resulting that is directly attributed to the shadchan misbehavior. Please don’t dwell on the few taht happen and negate all the good that gets done.
Consider that thousands of shidduchim a year are redd and probably about 2,000 get engaged and married (but these numbers are not hard and scientific). A small handfull of bad people shouldn’t be cause to paint the group in the light that your are.
jphone: Absolutley!
Thanks to The NASI Project many many shadchanim report that age (with in reason) seems to have become almost a non factor. Boys 23 are dating girls there own age – without even thinking twice about it.
Halevai Vaiter!!
Jothar: is there any data that close in age shidduchim are at are in any which way related to the divorce issue??
Closing the age gap will solve the numbers problem and alleviate a host of other issues (unreasonable money demands etc.) it obviously will not solve other issues related to marriage. Nor will it solve issues related to raising children or preventing illnesses in the community etc etc
Therefore WHAT??????
A600KiloBear:
So you personally know of one case where the shadchan was negligent. Therefore put every person in the field in the same boat.
Now that is sound logic…….
If parents realize that it is fair to compensate after three dates (or make it four) it is not common at all that a “sleazy” matchmaker will “trick” a couple into dating 3-4 times. Once yes, twice maybe. More than that is highly unlikely.
It’s not like the money is that good. If there in it for the money and they are that sleazy there are plenty of other, easier and more profitable scams to engage in.
KiloBear: one episode does not a theory make
So if there are more girls than boys. Please explain how anything can be solved untill we change that equation.
“issues” The boys seem to be getting by and large with or without “issues”. Obviously if there are 10% of girls who have not shot at getting married and we have no idea who the 10% are. Girls with “issues” will likely be from the 10%. As will whatever other subjective strikes against her are.
If we solve all of the girls “issues” etc. we still have 10% who can’t get married.
Jothar: Am I missing something
Lo Yitzloch:
The new motto should be
ASK THE QUESTION…….Don’t be a chazer
(thinking it’s coming to me)
Jothar:
You write- The age gap means there are more boys than girls
Incorrect
Please note a very interesting phenomana
It is very common that when a someone makes or helps a shadchans child in a shidduch they are VERY fairly compensated.
Do you know why??
Because a shadchan knows what it takes and thus appreciates what was done on behalf of their child.
The hamon am is out to lunch-Sorry.
Tzippi GAW:
I HAVE and Will continue to speak to Rabbonim about implementing the idea in their individual communities.
NO one can create rules.
However, it would be extremely beneficial if it became commonplace for the shadchanim to be FAIRLY compensated for their time and effort. And Tzippy the rabbonim AGREED!! Coming to a neighborhood near you.
In the initial phase (where we are now), all that can be accomplished from a change the mindset standpoint is to get people to start asking the question. That is the begining-NOT the end game.
If most people totally ignore the shadchans effort and you send flowers then yes it will be appreciated. HOWEVER much thought needs to be put into whether that is really sufficient compensation for all the time and energy that went into it.
Sorry, this is not about hakaras hatov-this is about fair compensation.
jphone:
“AGE GAP nonesense……
Please explain what is nonesense or are you smarter than the 70 R”Y that signed the letter acknowledging that AGE GAP a primary cause of the present shidduch crisis.
Your are correct, every chassuna has a boy and a girl. Yet after five years almost all boys are married and many many girls remain single.
Dearest jphone: Please explain that phenomena…
Here’s a little hint population is growing B”H. Can you figure out the rest….
Please allow me to rephrase the concept of the original poster.
Wouldn’t it be a appropriate frame of mind if after my child goes out on numerous dates (even if it doesn’t work) I ask my self the following question.
“What should I do to compensate the shadcahn for all the time and energy he/she devoted to try to bring my child to the chuppah?”
Perhaps there will be cases were the answer is they don’t deserve anything, and if that is the specific parents decision – it is very fair.
BUT AT LEAST – ASK THE QUESTION!!!
If all parents of dating children and the daters themselves asked the question, you can be sure many many times the individual answer will be something along the lines of the original OP’s suggestion.
ASK THE QUESTION
don’t be a chazer
Tzippi: The last time a request for names was submitted the answer was in the form of a letter signed by 70 Roshei Yeshiva.
I “sincerly” apologize but the rabbonim, roshei yeshiva and askanim are not beholden to the chevra of the YWCR. There mission is to implement suggestions to close the age gap and thus alleviate the crisis.
The specific idea of the OP is tangentially related (pls remember I wasn’t the OP of this thread) related to the crisis in genarl as it will definatlly have a postive effect.
where in the world do you get the idea that shalom bayis is a result of the shadcahn system. a recent discussin listed 3 top reaons for shalom bayis
1. Internet
2. Workplace relationships
3. Blackberry’s
(not my opinion-just a comment from Rav Weinberger)
I guess these are also due to the shadchanimn negligence.
question: KiloBear
Are you a professional that deals in Shalom Bayins issues and thus are making such comments from extensive first hand experience, or are you just making totally baseless accusations.
I have no doubt that there are some few and far between instances of gross negligence by the shadchan. To use a broad brush and paint the system and ALL shadcahn with that accusation is well…….gross negligence.
Hello99: A overhall of the system is needed because it is BROKEN. speak to shadchanim, speak to singles, speak to parents.
Shadchanim are overwehlmed, abused stepped all over,
Sinlges (usually the girls) are desperate for attention to get dates
Parents of the singles (usually of the girls) are up night after night in total desperation because their kids haven’t gotten dated in a long time.
soungs like a system that needs a overhaul.
Compensation for dates even without getting engaged would result in (as posted above)
a) far more people willing to put in the time and effort to redd shidducim.
b) far more dates for slightly older girls.
Akilobear: You are so off the mark….. How about a guess how many shidduchim have been generated by the online video dating idea… Why don’t you get involved and learn up the sugya.
You accuse people of “taking” money form poor families. Wouldn’t you agree that the overwhelming times that people would go on a third date is because the parties agreed it was a appropriate suggestion. Perhaps then can be sweet talked into one date. Pushed into number two. But to time and again get people to go on 3 dates without developing a reputation as a rotten shadchan. Wow I don’t know people who are such talented salesmen.
hello99: Your are SO correct.
It’s unbelievable how ppl can’t give the shadchan thier due. Certainly if a shadchan was grossly negligent then they should be held accountable. To think that even a slight percentage of shalom bayins issues it due to the shadchan is so utterly ridiculous to even have a conversation about.
Dear KiloBear_
Here’s an idea. Ask rabbonim who are familiar with shalom bayis issues and see how many come back to the shadchan being negligent. last I checked in the many articles speeches etc. on the topic, your point didn’t even crack the top 100 causes of shalom bayis issues. I guess you just know better.
It seems like the shadchan is now expected to be a mind reader, therapist, prophet, and ensure their marriage is blissful. Get realistic.
All a shadchan can do is attempt to arrange a date between two seemingly compatible people. The individuals and their families need to do due diligence.
People who think that to accomplish the goal of
a)coming up with an appropriate suggestion
b)encouraging both sides to give it a shot
c) getting two seemingly compatible people to go out on a 3 dates
is consistently easy-
they obviously haven’t haven’t gotten 5 shidduchim going in the last year.
A600KiloBear:
Last I checked ppl don’t look to inflict pain on themselves. If there are shadchanim out there who consistently suggest totally unsuitable ideas,(what u refer to as Shidduch plumer)
A: They won’t have to many people listening to them,
B: They certainly won’t have people getting to three dates.
If I may ask for the sake of the seriousness of this topic please keep your insensitive comments to other more important threads that the cr is filled with.
GAW:
Difference is One rov one shul is where it starts. It will explode very rapidly all over the country.
Re: Hiring a shadchan for a shul, there just aren’t enough shadchanim out there to hire one for every twenty girls. If it could be done it’s a start. (It would probably cost more to do that then to pay 150 each time the kids get to a 3rd date).
In addition this is NOT something the community should pay for. The people receiving the service should pay. (if someone can’t afford, well it’s like everything else in life. But why should it be structured that way initially.
FYI: many months ago I posted the idea of out of town communities hiring a shadchan for every twenty girls ages 21-25. That idea has evolved into the idea the OP discussed here.