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tzippi: Is offering compensation to someoe who spends hours tutoring your child also shochad???
Lo Yitzloch: “Sometimes we have to live with a crisis”
Last time I checked chazal went to extreme lengths to enable INDIVDUAL agunos to remarry. Our community is facing a situation of epic proportions.
NO, it’s not a crisis we can live with so long as there is what to be done.
oomis1105: “unbelievable??”
it’s the most obvious thing for individual girls to do. Ask people in the field and see what they say.
“yes AZ, every one of us has heard of the age gap”
Awesome! That was step one of the solution!
As for solutions to the Macro issue re: the communal Age Gap problem serious work is being done and progress is being made
here is a very very serios game plan
We know that we need to accomplish 3 things
1. Encourage boys to date girls their own age
2. Encourage boys to start dating slightly earlier
3. Encourage girls to start dating slightly later
Here’s the plan
Part A). A Staggered Lakewood freezer- tu b’shvat/ pesach or even better tu’bshvat/shavuos. meaning at tu’bshvat they can only date girls above 21 (or 20 whatever) to date younger girls they must wait till pesach or shavous.
This will automatically yield the following:
1. 800+ boys a year with a selfish incentive to date close in age
2. If these boys want close in age, inevitably far fewer 19 yrs olds will be dating and the shaddchanim will be focusing on the slightly older girls in order to cater to these boys.
Part B) Slowly lower the entrance age to post EY yeshivos. If in 2 yrs from now the top entering age is 22.5 as opposed to that being the average age, we will have boys dating slightly younger. If boys are coming in around 22 and dating girls 20/21 we have basically solved the lions share of the problem.
Part C). Shortening/cutting out time in EY. Same result as B)
Until these extremely effective ideas are implemented
Part D) restart the shadchan incentive project to keep close in age on the forefront of shaddchanims minds.
Any and all help on all these idea would be greatly apreciated.
I will now present four things that parents individual girls can do (the micro) that will give them the best shot to get married.
1. Encourage your sons/brothers to date girls their own age
2. Let shadchanim know that anytime ur daughter gets to a 3rd date u will pay $200 in recognition for the time effort and work that the shadchan invested.
3. Every date after the 3rd date the shadchan should get an additional $50
4. Girls 23 and older should date like they are 4 yrs older then they are. Anything u would go for at 27 go for at 23. That will make sure u don’t hit 27.
EDITED
point b) well lets see. Boys a has a choice to date girl A (age 23) or girl B (age 19) if he is encouraged to date girl A then girl B just lost out on a date. pretty simple formula.
this goes as well for point C). some R”Y are grappling with this issue. To what degree should they encourage a boy to date girl A knowing full well it will mean less dates for girl B. Clearly the 70 R”Y who signed on the letter as well as many others have stated thier opinion on the matter but as with everything else there are varying degrees.
Oh the Lakewood R”Y are very well aware of the NASI awareness. The question is what will get done. It’s their institution and they make the decisions.
Each yachid that marries with a significant difference has a effect on the rabbim- Of course. The question each yachid has to ask himself (his rebbi) is what does that require him to do.
I’m not sure what was unlcear about point b)
Vovlie: FYI, I’ve yet to meet a R”Y who doesn’t “hold” of the issue.
The question I’ve come across is
a) to what degree they are willing to advise the yachid in light of the situation facing the rabbim.
b) to what degree they are willing to help the slightly older girls knowing that there may be some younger girl who has the right to date and may have a bit more difficulty because a boy is saying yes to a 23 year old instead of a 19 year.
Those are the touchy issues that I’m aware that the R”Y are grappling with.
MY opinion is that is a question for a individual and he should get individual guidance. As for some factors that perhaps would come into play.
1. how long has the boy been dating(more than 3 years). the longer he has been dating the more unlikely it is for him to be willing to wait.
2. does he usually have names or does he have some difficulty in shidduchim. (yes there are some boys who have difficulty).
3. is this much younger girls so uniquely appropriate for him or he just hasn’t heard another name in the preceding two day.
and I’m sure if I thought for 5 minutes there would be other factors as well. So as I said it’s a very individualized question.
corretion: the girls (by and large) are in NO position to make such chesbonos
tzippi: The arizal writes that once a boy is past 18 the bas kol of 40 days before he was born no longer applies.
Tzippi: I don’t think I have commented once in this forum re: who girls should look for. The girls (by and large) are in postion to make such chesbonos.
volvie: the boy should ask his rebbi that question.
Ulisis: if you want to know how I “know” that G-D doesn’t want 10% of our girls to be agunos and yet I don’t “know” who everyones “basherete” is it’s pretty simple.
What took place 40 day’s before any of us were born is quite difficult for us to know, and frankly quite irrelevant since it can not impact our lives in any practical way.
To alleviate the pain of people who are part of klal yisroel is our duty. For a community to perpetuate the devastating situation that is (primarly self inflicted) due to lack of action- that’s a travesty.
Correct: I “know” that the ribbon shel oilam doesn’t want the community to act in a way the causes 10% of girls to have not shot. I don’t think that knowledge qualifies as “nistaros”.
ulisis: you lost me, pls clarify.
Have I clarified what you were looking for
The collective inadvertent action by the community that got us to where we are today, but who cares about “basheret” when it’s a totally philosophical discussion. Doesn’t anyone want to help girls get married??
(FYI- the arizal writes it’s only until 18, so tzippy go figure out who isn’t married to their basherte)
Vovlie:
Scociolocigal:
I did not say HE causes difficulties. I’m saying in general significant age gap shidduchim causes problems for the community. Yes every boy should look to give serious consideration to girls close to his own age. She the letter from the gedolim.
theologciacl: please read the numerous threads where this was discussed extensivly. I will sum it up in one comment.
I have no problem from a emuna standpoint if perhaps someone may get married and raise a wonderful family with someone who may or may not have been his “basherte” (whatever that means-I mean no of us where there 40 days prior to birth)
I have a huge problem believing that G-D wants 10% of our daughters to remain agunos.. Yes I think it is obvious that many many ppl who married with a significant age gap did NOT marry their basherte, because aint no way the ribono shel oilam wanted 10% agunos……
But we have free choice and we have messed up BIG TIME (albeit not intentionally).
Question: how could gedolim give a bracha to someone who marryies a older girl etc. isn’t it possible that someone might date a girl he otherwise wouldn’t have dated and according to your in-accurate logic he would end up marrying a girl who isn’t his basheret???
Or job is to deal with what we can, let’s leave the nistaros to the ribono shel oilam….
Aint nothing wrong with getting engaged. If he was not open to any suggestions other than those that were four years his junior i would venture to say that he wasn’t to helpful. If he was open to all reasonable ages and what worked out happened to be 4 years his junior then how could anyone fault him.
If boys were open to girls of all reasonable ages (relative to them) and shadchanim gave slight preference to to the slightly older girls, we would see a very very significant reduction in the age gap in a very short period of time.
1. I’m not sure what you want me to respond. a four year age gap causes difficulties for the community at large. For the individuals I’m sure it’s a beautiful shidduch.
once the age gap has been significantly alleviated numerous other issues will solve themselves. e.g. (money demands, “mentlichkeit” etc.) they are to a large part a derivative of a unequal market.
With out alleviating the age gap we can keep on straightening the deck chairs on the Titanic…..
Tzippi:
1. How many time do I need to explain the math. Its simple market economics-not Middos. Change the numbers and watch how fast the “middos” change.
2. I keep my discussion to shidduch crisis/age gap etc. related topics.
They mean slightly older girls. They are objectively better matches because they are more established in terms of parnasah, more equipped to deal with the realities of life etc etc.
To the best of my knowledge there are only two objective benefit to marrying a slightly older girl vs a girl slightly younger.
1. Almana Factor-women tend to live longer than men and thus if the wife is younger (and especially if she is significantly younger) she will in all likelihood be a almana at the end of her life. Sad but true. visit any assisted living or nursing home at she the female/male ratio.
2. The second reason relates to inyanei even haezer and is not for public discussion.
As for what the girls should be looking for. If you haven’t figured it out yet, the girls are NOT in the drivers seat so long as the numbers are stacked against them.
Tzippi: I don’t know what community you are referring to.
However allow me to explain the relatively ovbiuous thought procees behind such a plan.
They have many many single girls. They are bringing in a shadchan to meet the girls. The shadchan can not focus on all the girls at once. Sounds like it makes a lot of sense to have the shadchan only meet the slightly older girls. They are not preventing the younger girls from dating, they are simply trying to get extra help for the slightly older girls.
Seems like it makes sense to me.
And yes I am a big believer (as are many many R”Y) in giving boys reasons why slightly older girls are objectively better matches for them than the very new sem girls. Is that preventing anyone from getting married??, or just helping out the slightly older??
Singlepicky:
Great question:
I thing the answer should be based on the age at which the pool of available single men becomes significantly smaller than the pool of avail single women in any specific circle.
I’m afraid to post what age i believe is the appropriate age but suffice it to say that it’s much younger than 30. That’s not to say that a 27 year old girl should run to date a 45 year old guy.
I line i recently heard and it makes a lot of sense is as follows. when you are 24 date like you are 28. When you are 27 date like you are 32. It will give you the best chance to make sure that you are not single at reach 28/32.
The implication is for each and every individual to apply to their own personal situation.
Tzippy: Grassroots movement to delay dating untill 22???
I curious which country, city, organization are you refereeing to. It’s not something that I’m familiar with, and to the best of my knowledge it’s not something that NASI has encouraged
I was asked to post this response to the letter that has previously been discussed. It was written by a very active shadchan.
Yes , I agree with the writer who contended that the shidduch situation is not a crisis. A crisis is an emergency situation which needs immediate attention and is usually short lived . This is much more intense, painful, and severe, and for many it seems to last an eternity. The parents of older single girls do not live a normal life, nor do the girls themselves. What seems to be a simple act like attending shul on shabbos and yomtov is fraught with pain. Attending a simcha is difficult beyond imagination. Only a person without any close family members or friends struggling in the parsha can speak so cavalierly about having bitachon . Would one tell the mother of a sick child , the refuah will come at the right time with the right shaliach???
It is completely unacceptable to attempt to calm people down and reassure them that things will work themselves out in shidduchim when it is quite evident that that has not been the case for hundreds of singles today..
A woman once confided in me that if she would have known what difficulties she would have encountered in shidduchim with her daughters she wouldn’t have had so many children. This highly intelligent, frum, articulate woman, was simply expressing her deepest feelings in a moment of shidduch angst.
One cannot ever dictate to another human being how they should feel. Our job is to listen with utmost empathy and do what is possible to alleviate another persons pain. Empathy, compassion, sensitivity are within everyone’s grasp. We are all familiar with the famous story of the grandmother who reacted by saying, don’t worry when a child was severely hurt until she came close and realized unfortunately it was her own grandchild who was the victim. Then the situation took on an urgency unlike any other.
For those who are watching from the sidelines with their tables full of growing families, the situation isn’t so severe. But when your own daughter is lonely, heartbroken and receiving invitations to her friends sons bar mitzvahs then its far more severe than any crisis.
oomis1105:
if there are not enough boys for the girls we can redt till our faces turn blue. We won’t make a dent…
Hello99:
To give some anecdotal evidence. Growing up (in a yeshivishe community in the time frame you describe) families with 10 children was NOT commonplace. In the entire school we had maybe 5 such families. Nowadays that is VERY common.
Hello99:
Please visit lakewood. I don’t think you are in touch with reality.
Tzippi:
You asked, “Am I missing something”
The answer:
Yes
Hello99: I will leave it to mox to debate the actaul mathematical data angle. However I fail to understand you. Are you suggesting that the average family size in the “yeshiva” world are smaller now than they were 20 30 years ago.
I thing a simple even cursory glance at the facts on the ground will show that not to be accurate.
youdon’tknowme:
no argument here. I’m a much bigger fan of this weeks rebuttal – than of her original letter.
What I think Mrs Rose meant was
1. Having more shadchanim would be very helpful.
2. Mothers of YOUNGER girls (19/20/21) getting hysterically worried (although understandable because of the fear of what’s going on) is counterproductive.
EDITED
Hello99
“However in my experience there has been a significant DROP in the birth rate the past 10-15 years as birth control has become more popular in our circles, for better or for worse.”
Please Check out the progressive class sizes in lakewood/passaic/monsey for example.
For specific mathematical data i will leave that to mox.
EDITED
Since you insist:
Hello99: Absolutely Positively NO. Just Haven’t been around the CR lately
Haifagirl:
check out this weeks Yated for the response to the letter posted above.
Here is the gist.
Title of letter
“Of course there is a shidduch crisis”
“I read chana rose letter last week and I am amazed that a shadchan herself can openly state no crisis!!”
“What does she mean…..”
“Every single older girl is a crisis….”
“She just has to read kol korei from gedolei hador…..”
“As a matter of fact it is actually a time of torture….”
“It might be hard for her to feel the pain of the older single….”
And the winner line
“Yes, we most definitely have a crisis and that is what it should be called. It is only because it has been termed a crisis that more ppl have gotten involved in shidduchim. More organizations, more Shidduchim meetings. Incentives have been offered, and a kol korei released”
in my opinion very well done-AZ
Then the next letter agree points out that we need more Shaddchanim and reccomends some form of thank you for any shadchan that sets up a date-
hey where did I hear that kind of an idea before…..
Hello99:
Regarding the Moslem communities:
In a Atlas published the the 1990’s about muslim society (that covered all kinds of social and economic issues) they devoted two pages to the “shiddcuh crisis” and how age gap is creating it. They make the point that the muslim countries/societies/communities where the age gap is most prevalent (birth rate growth x differential in standard age at time of marriage) they have two other prevalent phenomena regarding their single women
1. Polygamy (women marrying men who are already married)
2. repudiation (women marrying men who have been divorced or widowed.
They explain it simply that since the single women can’t find single men to marry- they instead marry men who are married or who have been married already.
sound familiar…
Hello99: and Binah was dead wrong. They focused on the micro and totally missed the Macro.
Tzippi: Here goes
step 1:
Population growth= more younger children than older children for both boys and girls
step 2:
more younger children than older children = more 19 year old people than 23 year old people (both female and male)
step 3:
If boys and girls begin the dating process at around the same age there is roughly the same amount of boys and girls entering the shidduch pool at any given year (hence the chassidm have no shidduch crisis for their girls)
step: 4
If boys and girls begin the dating process with an age gap (girls at 18.5, boys at 22.5) we have many more girls entering the shidduch pool than boys.
step: 5
if far more girls than boys are entering the pool every year then inevitably there are large number of girls with no one to marry. Every entering boys could marry a entering girls and we still have hundreds (aprox 200 per year) of girls with no one to marry.
step 6:
the next year the process repeats itself and the next year and the next year.
step 7:
The final result is hundreds and hundreds of girls tragically not getting married.
I hope this explains it clearly.
HEllO99: we can debate exact population growth and thus the exact number of unmatched girls, but the concept is pashut and obvious.
Truth be told there may be a significant difference between communities. In the yeshivish communities based on HS data collected so far (and anecdotal data, shadchanim info etc.) the boys who started dateing 5-10 years ago are almost all married.
In the less yeshivish communities there may be additional factors at work that MAY result in many many BOYS not being married as well. This is being studied at present but nothing conclusive has been reached. In other words to date no one has been able to get a handle on how many boys are out there in the non yeshivish community.
Any one who can help in this would be greatly appreciated.
Tzippiy: your question regarding more girls being born than boys is a clear illustration that you don’t begin to grasp the root cause referred to as age gap.
I won’t bother explaining it so as not to bore the entire cr and risk getting this thread closed.
Don’t know, but if he goes for 9 months instead of a year and a half……
jewishandworking22: The present issue being worked on is the issue of age gap. Not because there are no other issues, but because that has been recognized as
1. Clearly the Primary cause of having so many older singles (in the more right wing communities for sure)
2. It is something that is eminently solvable.
When I mentioned making hard choices I was referring to structural change and that can only happen on a communal level not on a person by person basis.
There is no doubt that input from all parties singles/shadchanim/parents is invaluable etc. to discover what other issues are at play.
I for one have heard dozens of theories as to other factors at play. Nothing concrete- nothing provable-nothing actionable.
If you could put together some kind of accurate effective study that is compelling with a clear plan (or basic idea) how to act on it, I have no doubt that there would be action taken on it.
There is no contradiction to age gap and working on other factors as well. Everything helps.
At present their are probably less than 15 people in the country who are actually doing anything about the ROOT causes of the situation.
Your help would be greatly appreciated.
Tzippi: All ideas or on the table, NOT everything needs to be eaten. Obviously the gedolim will determine which suggestions should be followed through with and which should be left for your cat (e.g. abolishing cherem d’rabeinu gershom).
I can’t gurantte that they will take counsel with you prior to making the decsion. What people should realize is when we deal with serious and devastating issues we need to make hard choices.
Just take a peek and the lengths posking and communities went to permit a single aguna to remmary. We are dealing with not one, not two and not five hundred.
Do you get the picture.
A couple of years back a well known religious community spent over 100,000 to find and identify a person who was killed in a boating accident and help prevent his wife from becoming a aguna.
That was for ONE person.
What should we be ready to do with the devastating situation we are facing???
Tzippi: I Wrote,
Rabbi Aisentark does not consider it a l’chatchila for there to be hundreds and hundreds of agunos. what he would recommend to do I do not know. Is there something in this comment that you refer to as putting words in other peoples mouths??
I do happend to know that he takes the situation very seriously, in fact i spoke to himself about it….
Am I sure that Raabi Aisentark would say that L’chatchila we shouldn’t have Hundreds and Hundreds of girls stuck with no one to marry???
Yes Tzippy I’m very very sure. Is there anyone in their right mind who would think it is a L’chatchila???
I don’t know what Rabbi Aisenstark would recommend doing about it, but I’m sure he would agree having so many agunos is not a L’chatchila.
Tzippi: When the R”Y need your take on the suggestions I’m sure they will ask you. What needs to bee understood is that the situation is so serious that any and all suggestions need to be carefully considered.
I’m sure Rabbi Aisentark would also say that L’chatchila we shouldn’t have Hundreds and hundreds (thousands) of girls stuck with no one to marry. Unfortunately that is the reality of the world we live in. One thing I can guarantee is that if we continue doing exactly as we’ve been doing till now, we will continue to have the same disastrous results.
we need to just realize how serious (and urgent) the situation is. Change is never easy, but when it’s necessary – it has to happen in a smart and effective way.
jphone:
The boys are getting marrried “despite” whatever outside “help that you don’t approve of. I wholly agree with your statement that a total communal effort is necessary.
Tzippi: “I can absolutely guarantee it won’t work.”
and how might you know that?
As for my opinion (for whatever its worth) re: changing the cut off dates
I think all options that could make a big difference re: age gap-short and/or long term-need to be explored in serious manor.
Nothing and I mean nothing should be simply dismissed as out of hand. The exploration process will of course require serious discussions with educators and schools about potential problems (if any) instituting such a change would create.
Ultimately the final decision as to which suggestions should be implemented and which rejected should be made by the leaders of our nation.
Hows that for a personal opinion?
I thought the goal of this forum is to come up with ideas not suggest what others should do. (obviously to implement the ideas we will need to team up with the leadership and have them endorse encourage and back the suggestions).
Ideas: Keep ’em coming. Klal Yisroel has a lot of talent out there. Some of these ideas just might happen and save hundreds and hundreds of girls
youdontknowme: bulls eye!!
and within reason don’t spend all your time trying to come up with ideas for the 19 20 years old girls. Put that same time and energy into the 21-23 year olds
jphone:
“The answer is for the “younger” boys really be younger.”
I don’t understand
It is refreshing to see that we have begun to discuss real ideas about how to close the age gap. To be sure- some ideas will be able to be implemented. Some will be rejected by the community and the leaders.
In any event the YWCR has been a tremendous vehicle for putting this issue on the map and hopefully some creative acceptable ideas will come forth.
How’s this for a long term idea, take out a year of either high school (12th grade) or elementary (8th grade) for the boys.
Or girls starting kindergarten a year later.
just some thoughts to munch on….,.
Tzippi: It’s nice that from your arm chair you make up pie charts. As you so eloquently wrote, It is silly.
Besides for that, closing the age gap is not a contradiction to anyone of your subjective concepts (other than the fact that it is eminently more achievable).
youdontknowme: I don’t know aries2756. I don’t think anyone is telling shadchanim to NOT redt a shiddcuh if they are more than two years apart. But people redding shidduchim should definitely make an effort to keep the ages close as much as they can.
Is that something you are comfortable with.
oomis1105:
Unless we take the time to understand and face the core issues causing the situation you describe
“Boys have shidduchim suggested ad nauseum, and girls do not”
we have no hope of alleviating.
Thus….
It is clear that the present system creates a larger number of girls entering the shidduch pool each year than boys. Thus all the problems you describe in your rant.
Encouraging close in age shiddcuhim is a start as it inevitably has an indirect of boys and girls dating closer in age.
Going forward (slight) changes to the system are necessary.When the community grasps the full signifignace of teh situation, those changes will happen.
Yesterday my friends wife went to some kind of convention for speech etc. therapists. She was shocked at the ridiculously high number of older single girls who were there. (not a scientific study, but a telling piece of info nonetheless).
youdontknowme: you are 100% correct. NO one is TELLING boys they MUST date girls their own age.
If all boys (and their mothers) had your attitude,
“I’m not very particular about the age of girls I go out with,”
“I don’t think age is all that important,”
Inevitably far more close in age shidduchim would continue to take place.
Kudos to you, and Ki’mocha yirbu bi’yisroel
EDITED
Therefore, unless we figure out a way to change this equation we will not be able to significantly alleviate the crisis?
oomis1105: do you agree with that as well?
aries2756: B”H in the last two years many many boys ages 22-28 are more than willing to go out with girls who are not “the new crop”.
Shadchanim say they are getting yesses from boys for shidduchim that previously the boys would never have considered strictly because of the age.
Progress has been made but there is a long way to go.
The system thus results in hundred more girls than boys entering the shidduch pool each year..
oomis1105: If you want to solve a problem you need to know what the problem is, otherwise your head is in the sand.