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“Most shadchanim my family deals with demand alot more.”
funny you write that. I have been in contact with tens of shadchanim in the last couple of years and not a single one has a price, and they certainly don’t “demand” anything….
Do you have any siblings that have gotten engaged via those shadchanim and they demanded a specific amount or have they told you up front?
I am aware of two shadchanim in the country who have fees up front. Two – that’s it. (there may be more but its kind’ve of like a needle in a haystack). Those 2 shadchanim tend to focus on the rich and famous-which is their right if they so choose.
The tens and tens of others-like Rochelle’s Mother in Law-have no fees have no demands
Rochelle: please ask you mother in law how she would feel if she was given twenty dollars as shadchanus. Its so degrading. And then we complain that there are not enough shadchanim around.
In addition Rochelle: please enlighten the CR as to the time and energy your MIL puts into shidduchim (and she’s not a “professional”-whatever that’s supposed to mean.)
Bodek: The overwhelming number of shadchanim have NO demands. They take whatever is offered. That still absolutely does NOT justify handing a shadchan a twenty dollar bill after your child gets engaged.
Bodek:
Please double check. It’s impossible to comprehend that parents of a newly engaged child would express their hakaros hatov in the form of twenty dollar bill. I don’t care what they do for a living. They’d be better off writing a beautiful card and apologizing and sending nothing.
EDITED
HIE: that wasn’t the question. there are about 3 shadchanim in the country that have “Prices” the tens of others have no prices no have specific demands and graciously receive what they are given. (which by the way is why they are abused and taken advantage of).
It is that style shadcahn that Azois.is was asking about.
I don’t know about “comfortable” but common in the trit-state area is 1,000-1,500 each side usually paid around the time of the vort but some pay at the wedding.
asdfghjkl: AZ has no agendas – but thanks for the plug…..
Yeshiva Net is extremely effective and worth every penny and the minor annoyance in having to request specific sites and waiting 5 minutes to get the access. Once access is granted it stays open (assuming it’s a approved site).
It is perfect for people who don’t need to search the web constantly but have 20/50/80 however many sites that they frequent again and again.
They do allow open internet for finite periods of time (if someone needs it for whatever reason) and it is monitored.
To the best of my knowledge it can not be overridden as it’s not a filter nor a password.
hereorhtere/ itiswhatitis:
It is NOT part of HIS plan. But HE allows us to mess up (free choice). See other threads how the community has unwittingly condemned 10% of girls to being Agunos.
AGE GAP
Thanks tzippi:
and what if we want 2000 boys getting married at 22 and 1000 at 23
instead of 1000 at 22 and 2000 at 23.
Certainly.
actually HE did his part!!
we need many many more such shidduchim.
jphone: Cynicism noted. “those boys” are getting married as well.
YW Moed-80 Thanks. I understood that very well. And it’s high time our community get used to that word being used in this context. Because we are dealing with a situation that is nothing short of a wide spread agunos.
IR: what’s confusing about hundreds and hundreds of girls not ever getting married. Agunos in the full sense of the word. And the community needs to start doing whaever it would do if they were agunos in the more common sense.
Typically we call to great lengths to permit a individual agunos. Here we are dealing with ridiculous numbers.
The earlier suggestions would accomplish just that.
volvie: correct.
Azois, Volvie, Nachas:
correct
aries2756:
The R”Y propose that if boys started dating when they were INDIVIDUALLY ready to and not held back but artificial impediments there would be no harm done. No one is telling anyone when to date. What’s being suggested is to remove the artificial impediments.
No one in this forum is suggesting boys get married at 19 (although chazal did seem to think it was a good idea).
To put it another way. Many boys get married at 22 but far far more get married at 23. Say 1,000 at 22 and 2,000 at 23. (these are not made up numbers) If we could flip flop those numbers and have 2,000 boys getting married at 22 and 1,000 boys getting married at 23 we will have an unbelievable accomplishment. Not a total solution but a very very good start!
Sounds reasonable and very doable to me!
IR: The longer it takes to alleviate the age gap the greater the number of girls who will never get married.
I am implying that when the masses have a great and urgent need (especially when its a legitimate need) the necessary changes happen…….
I am implying that it’s not the gedolim who are preventing the change from happening……
I am implying that when the Lakewood freezer is adjusted there will be very very little damage if any to the yeshiva and the benefit to the tzibbur of yeshiva leit including the thousands sitting and learning in lakewood will be………
ASTRONOMICALL and STRATOSPHERIC
Volvie: and hears another little secret….
The most powerful force in Frum society is Frum Society-The masses. If the masses demand it it will happen. It always has and always will. The most effective force to induce change is when the masses need it and demand it.
To date their has not been a large enough outcry. We will get there. And when we will it will happen.
It’s just a pity all the unnecessary korbanos that will have to be sacrificed till we reach that point.
Yes as long as it doesn’t effect their yeshiva……
Therefore
1. Being worked on and will happen sooner then later
2. Being worked on and will take a bit longer
People in the know predict that within two years both of these changes will happen. first the age limits and then the freezer adjustment.
The sooner it happens the more girls who are saved…..
The longer it takes the more agunos out there.
Tzippi: at the risk of going in circles. With all do you resepect to your democratic right to voice your opinion. The Roshei Yeshiva advising NASI (and many others) know that its the right thing to do.
For two reasons:
1. The boys own best interest
2. the devastating shidduch situation demands this kind of minor action.
Would you like a list? of Roshei Yeshiva who think it would be better for boys to shorten/cut out the time they learn in EY.
They can wait to date until they are 27+ if the individual boy feels it is right for him. No one is telling anyone when to date.
anuran: I’m confused. Are you saying that you can’t post what you strongly feel the solution is???
feel free to contact the NASI Project. Their contact info is public. I’m sure they would cherish your input.
volvie the original thread asked for real solutions to the shidduch crisis, and the OP asked me directly. I gave a very very clear and detailed response to the question.
For your benefit I have reposted here:
We know that we need to accomplish 3 things
1. Encourage boys to date girls their own age
2. Encourage boys to start dating slightly earlier
3. Encourage girls to start dating slightly later
Here’s the plan
Part A). A Staggered Lakewood freezer- tu b’shvat/ pesach or even better tu’bshvat/shavuos. meaning at tu’bshvat they can only date girls above 21 (or 20 whatever) to date younger girls they must wait till pesach or shavous.
This will automatically yield the following:
1. 800+ boys a year with a selfish incentive to date close in age
2. If these boys want close in age, inevitably far fewer 19 yrs olds will be dating and the shaddchanim will be focusing on the slightly older girls in order to cater to these boys.
Part B) Slowly lower the entrance age to post EY yeshivos. If in 2 yrs from now the top entering age is 22.5 as opposed to that being the average age, we will have boys dating slightly younger. If boys are coming in around 22 and dating girls 20/21 we have basically solved the lions share of the problem.
Part C). Shortening/cutting out time in EY. Same result as B)
Until these extremely effective ideas are implemented
Part D) restart the shadchan incentive project to keep close in age on the forefront of shaddchanims minds.
Any and all help on all these idea would be greatly apreciated.
For some reason the posters choose not to focus on the real effective ideas that are being worked on.
This hardly looks like a one trick pony to me. More like the culmination of months of work by very dedicated people under guidance from leading R”Y that yielded a thought out, rehashed, effective and highly implementable set of suggestions.
The sooner these changes take effect the sooner I will disappear from the CR.
Guess this has become a new thread…… ADIOS
ronsr: YOU definately should and are more than welcome to do whatever you can to unearth underling causes and address them. Why that is relevant to this thread is beyond me. The needs of the Jewish Nation are great and we should all to our best to help the klal but why confuse the issue.
Jphone:
Your cyncism aside,
The “crisis” is a result of an inequtiy of numbers of girls in relation to the boys. This has many devastating derivatives, among them it causes the girls side to desperately hound shadchanim in hope of getting attention. Having more shadchanim involved would help slightly (I write slightly because the boys seem to be getting married any way). The idea of girls families offering compensation for getting quality dates is simply a way for a individual girls to get attention from the shadchan.
It is my belief that both sides should compensate the shadchan as simple mentlichkeit but that was not the message of my original post in this thread.
aries2756: “My kids are B”H married for years,…..but that was the going rate when they were dating and B”H we did not have the need to go to a professional….”
and as such you are in likelihood not in touch with what is going on today….
Jphone: the overwhelming majority of shadchanim have no fees neither up front nor for the completed shidduch.
tomim tihye: today’s is not the same as fifteen years ago. a recent study of girls dating vbetween 5-10 years show over 13% still single….
Oomis1105: so please explain why less then 1% of the people bother to do as you suggest (write so much as a nice card) when their child gets to a third/forth date?? and if you think I’m making it up try speaking to fifty shadchanim….
Jphone:
Expressing genuine appreciation to someone who spends hours trying to help your child is hardly “shmearing”.
It’s Funny.
I think we would all agree that parents should write a nice sincere card to express their appreciation to a shadchan once their child goes out on a couple of dates- wouldn’t you say? Why isn’t that “shmearing”.
Or is it only when a parent actually wants to give money to somehow compensate for the time the shadchan spent , that is when we get all bent out of shape.
aries2756:
I have been in contact with close to 50 shadchanim over the last couple of years. Not a single one of them has ever asked for nor received anywhere close to 10g for a shidduch they have completed.
Many many of them work hours and hours each day some. Some of them 24/7 literally. Perhaps because they don’t have pre determined demands of 10g makes them not proffesional in your book. It is to these and the vast majority of the shadcahnim out there that I recommend giving compensation after 3 dates.
what you describe is so uncoomon probably less then 10 people in the US have a system set up that their fee is 10g for a completed shidduch.
I certainly agree with you. A shadchan who expects 10g for a completed shidduc and gets has no need for minor compensation after a couple of dates.
For the vast vast majorit of shadchanim who receive aprox one to to two thousand dolars for completed shidduchim. Yes I think compenation after a few dates is a very smart things for parents to do!
Jphone: are u saying a individual parent should NOT do something that is in their own child’s best interest (get them attention) because maybe down the road it will get out of hand. (I guess anythings possible).
jphone: Bribery, mezumin after the fact???? That’s usually before hand…
Just saw this weeks yated-readers write. check it out….
oomis: There are tons of girls ages 22/23 who have not dated 5 boys 4 times.
oomis1105: Here’s a little secret. take a typical normal regular girl. By the time she dates 5 boys 3 times each she will already be married.
Tzippi: the expense will most likely be less than 1,000 for your daughters entire dating life. If you feel the tuition commintee needs to be aware of that, by all means.
Either way (IMHO) parents should to it to help their daughters.
Tzippi: “R”L”- you make me laugh. People involved are waiting for this to happen. In fact I spoke to day with a Menahel of a Large Girls School and he refereed to it as a Brilliant Idea that he will try to encourage.
But we live in a democratic state and everyone is entitled to their opinion so long as halacha doesn’t have a say on the matter.
aries2756:
oomis:
Tzippy:
To clarify: you would discourage a parent from offering compensation to a shadchan who got their child to a 3rd/4th date even though in all likelihood it will help get their child more attention and more quality dates.
A simple yes or no will do
oomis1105: I am not saying it is unfair (that is for a separate discusion), I am not saying it is owed. I am not even saying shadchanim should ask for it.
I simply wrote that parents who offer it to shadchanim will get attention and thus its a very smart thing for parents to do to help their daughters-you think??
DO you think that it won’t help?-your dead wrong.
or do you think parents shouldn’t do it, even though it will help??
aries2756:
A shadchan who accepts $200 for the time invested in setting up a boy and girl on 3 or 4 dates is going against halacha????
Please quote chapter and verse.
As an aside, I’m must be missing something. If a parent willing chooses to inform a shadchan that they recognize the time and effort required and will be willing to compensate if the shadchan get their child to a 3rd/4th date. Is anything not appropriate being done?
didn’t think so.
I just suggested to parents to do exactly that, BECAUSE IT WORKS.
In addition you commented that you wished there were more people actively involved in redding shidduchimn. I simply made the obvious observation that if people were compensated for arranging quality dates there would be more shadchanim.
And when there are 600 girls vying for a specific shadchans attention, sincere appreciation and yes offer of compensation goes that much further.
Especially if the daughter is 21/22.
Oomis:
Aries:2756:
If you want it to be the fourth date so be it. There is a point in time at which is is clearly a solid suggestion. Offering the Shadchan compensation for reaching that point is simply a very effective method of getting attention for your OWN daughter. No one is saying what parents have to do, I made a simple obvious suggestion of what parents COULD do to help their OWN daughter. Do you debate the that it works, because I know for a fact that does.
BYTW interesting to see we have left the purpose of the thread which was to discuss real solutions to the crisis….
aries2756: The Most effective method of having more shadchanim around is letting them know that if they get to a third date they are a SUCCESS (compensate them). Success breed success. When they are made to feel like a failure despite having gotten to a third or forth date, that causes many potential future shadchanim to quit.
Step into the shoes of a relatively busy shadchan for a day or two. You have to be mad to take on the lifestyle. And you wonder why there aren’t more shadchanim around….
In addition more shadchanim alone without closing the age gap will help only minimally as the boys are getting married…..so someone is setting them up. But I don’t want to go down that road again.
Vovlie:
Incorrect: That 24 year old boy who the 23 year old girl is hesitant to seriously consider (for whatever reason) may well end up marrying a 19 year old. Meaning a 19 yaer old got married instead of a 23 year old. If that 23 year old girl would seriously consider the suggestion (because of the plus 4 advice) then she would potentially get married at that time instead of a 19 year old. THAT is NOT reshuffling the deck on the titanic.
In addition the suggestions to the individual girls had nothing to do with the problem at large. They would just proven suggestions to help individual girls. To help the larger problem we need to implement the suggestions that were mentioned previously and are presently being worked on.
what society does or doesn’t do is hard to control. What is clear is that at aprox. 24 years old the numbers (in the yeshivish community for sure) begin to dip seriously against the girls. Therefore it is their best interest to date with a +4 attitude. I wish it wasn’t so. However so long as we have not eradicated the age gap problem this is in their best interest.
oomis: you totally misread. I didn’t she should date a guy age wise appropriate as if she is 4 years older! (remember i’m into close in age shidduchim). The point was the kind of specifics that won’t be deal breakers if she was 27 shouldn’t be a deal breaker when she’s 24. Each individual accordning to their situation.
Be it family, background, and the numerous other issues that might be deal breakers at 19, it’s prudent (becuase of the numbers problem) to date at 24 with a +4 attitude.
Dunno:
1. the vast majority of girls date very few boys more than 3/4 times it is NOT expensive one does NOT have to be rich to do it, and is a very very smart investment to give yourself the best shot to get married.
2. I didn’t put any suggestions how to slow the girls down, for precisely the reasons you mentioned) I just stated the facts. By changing the freezer inevitably the younger girls will collectively be slowed down.
3. Your opinion/my opinion on the freezer really don’t matter. I just wrote that staggering the freezer is a extremely effective way of alleviating the age gap problem and is being worked on as we speak (blog).
Glad to see some discussion on the real issues.
Tzippi: Feel free to discuss your concerns with the R”Y who are working on implementing the list above.
volvie: This is the first time I posted a comprehensive list of effective solutions presently BEING WORKED on as well as suggestions for individual girls and their families. I would think that after all this time people would be thrilled that real progress is being made and would love to help further ease the crisis.
Arie2756: “If you have a “solution,” fine,”.
Sounds like he was interested and I obliged.
chasid-of-Hashem: Thanks
Volvie and areis2756:
The OP asked me directly for real solutions to the shidduch crisis and my post did just that both on the Macro and the Micro level. Please explain how that is hijacking a thread.
As for you commnet re: “super payment” I do not know what you are referring to. I offered simple advice to parents of individual girls that informing shadchanim that they will be fairly compensated for any quality shidduch they propose (i.e. gets to 3 dates) will work wonders for their daughters.
Those that don’t want to take advantage of the suggestion don’t have to.
Additionally, the main point of my post was to answer the OP’s request for real answers to the shidduch crisis and what is actively being done.
Interesting, that after all the time spent in the CR on the issue there seems to be silence re: the solutions.
Tzippi:
No on is asking anyone to do anything. It is simply a suggestion for girls and their parents. Shadcahnim are hounded by hundreds of people and they are only human.
It’s your choice be one of 500 or be special. Show them you appreciate their efforts, time etc. You will get more attention from them. This is not about bribing anyone, it’s that people will you better if you show them that you appreciate their efforts.
I write this because I know first hand that it works. Girls and their families can either take the advice or leave it, but whats to debate.
If you don’t like it don’t do it.
YW Moderateor-80: with all due respect, this is NOT a bribe, it is appreciation after the fact for time and energy invested.
Tzippi:
1. NO one is insisting that peoplle have to pay. I just statet the obvious. Parents that offer to recognize a shadchans efforts and time will get attention. If a parent doesn’t want to they don’t have to, but those that do will be treated the way they treat the shadchan.
What’s not to understand. And it’s something practical that indiviual girls and parents can do to help themselves.