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True Bas Yisreol:
Get the crowd togeter You CAN make it happen. But it has to be the girls fighting/demanding for themselves. no on can do it for them.
It CAN happen, and It WILL happen.
All we need is a Nachshon (in a skirt).
Tzippi: being that I’m not a single girl i can’t spearhead. The girls and their families have to take charge and their voices WILL be heard LOUD and CLEAR
True bas Yisroel”
Try parking 250 girls 23+ on the front lawn of any of the people who can make a difference. Have newspapers cover the story and watch how fast things change.
The ONE things girls and their families can do is REFUSE to SUFFER in silence. DEMAND change from those that can help.
When the girls band together they will be a force that HAS to be reckoned with AND will.
You CAN make it happen!!
BUT only they can do it.
“The question remains- what can be done for girls who are constantly getting rejected and few guys are being redd to them, other than Daven?”
The Answer: (if the mods will let it).
1. You girls are great.
2. You deserve to be married.
EDITED
You need to demand that the people who can effect the necessary changes (and there are people who can) they must do so and the do so IMMEDIATELY.
Simple Basic Market Economics
Please get permission from shadchanim before posting their names. Many would NOT appreciate it.
Hello99: please clarify what article demolished that theory. I actually read the magazine well and failed to notice what you claim it says.
Volvie: chas v’shalom. I never meant it was you!
I responded to your earlier comment and then made a request of the mods.
I apologize sincerely for the misunderstanding.
I think it would be good for the CR if the mods don’t allow hijacking of screen names
It’s not volvie, it’s another poster who has done this before, and if he does it again he will be permanently banned
Wolfish:
Thank you for retracting.
to clarify: Tosafos is reffering to CAN NOT get married or DIFFICULT to get married????
is there any greater difficulty then there not being enough boys????
What I am looking for is for people to grasp the gravity of the situation.
SEMANTICS are thus VERY important.
Sugar coating prevent people from GETTING it.
Not willing to look through preivous threads means one doesn’t want it BADLY enough. This has nothing to do with any individual in particular. It is simply a statement of reality that the shidduch crisis WILL be solved when the masses are DESPERATELY searching for a solution.
We are not there yet.
NOT by a long shot. So for now that can be accomplished is small baby steps towards an eventual solution.
When their is a starvation for a total and complete solution it WILL happen.
The last couple of posts was just an exercise in the difference between asking a question and REALLY REALLY wanting an answer.
its the difference between selling a hot dog to someone walking down the street and selling a hot dog to someone who is starving and came running over to the hot dog vendor.
NIGHT and DAY
EDITED
Tosafos is first page second perek of kiddushin 41A D”H “Assur” last line and a half of the Tosafos
Rav Shteinmans letter was posted here
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?s=shteinman+%2B+nasi
Wolf: Count yourself out.
In fact both questions you asked were already answered in the CR more than once. The Tosafos in this very thread. Since the question doesn’t bother you to even attempt to look for a answer I won’t bother either.
Here’s a simple rule.
When people really want to know a answer they will search.
If they don’t search they don’t really care.
If they don’t really care, they certainly won’t be part of the solution.
The shidduch crisis WILL be SOLVED when the MASSES are SEARCHING for the answer.
not theorizing, not pitying, not pointing fingers, not posting on the CR but SEARCHING for answers like Shlomo Hamelech writes in Mishlei.
The NASI Project (whose mission I respect greatly and thus spend time in the CR furthering their goals,)
HAS been searching, and their efforts and RESULTS to date speak for themselves
as attested to in this very forum by girls themselves.
Bodek: fair enough.
Contact NASI and I’m sure they can help you (i will give them the heads up that someone very interested and potentially very helpful will be contacting them).
If you can’t be bothered to figure out how to contact them, then I guess you just don’t want to know the answers badly enough.
Posting on the CR is easy.
Wolf not so fast. I need you to show me how interested you are.
Rochelle:
It is as clear as the day that we are woefully short or realizing the full extent of the crisis. And I have rock solid evidence to prove it.
Where there is FALSE hope there is frustration, depression, devastation and hopelessness NOT what I call LIFE
Wolf: How badly to you really want to know where the Tosafos is. Because it is there.
YW MOD 80. This is right here right now in OUR COMMUNITY.
Do want to know where it is stated??
Tzippi: how badly to you want to see act II
Wolf: No Two agunos are ever in the exact same situation. There are various factors that create a tremendous obstacle to their ability to get married.
1. husband is lost
2. husband is mentally incapacitated
3. there is no boy for the girls to marry
4. Husband is recalcitrant
and many othere factors
YOU have decided to arbitrally deifne it by a halachic impediment.
The Ballei Tosafos and Rav Shteinman diagree with you
Do you deny that?
And the no boy scenario is
a) effects exponentially far far more people (the bad news)
b) is eminently solvable (the good news) and the TRUE HOPE for the girls.
Volvie: Correct and what action have YOU taken to make it happen.
Shaindel: WRONG WRONG WRONG. Girls do NOT need anyone’s support. The last thing they need is more false hope.
Haifa Girl: How badly are you interested or is it limiting to posting on the cr…. I for one am NOT interested in arguing for the sake of arguing. I want one thing and one thing ONLY
mybat: When it becomes clear B’rochel Bitcha Hakitana that what I am saying is KULO EMES, then and only then can we have TRUE hope of getting these girls married.
oomis: and what if I’m a girl??
I am on the issues of SOLVING the problem (not that I disagree with you). To SOLVE the problem The girls need to be EMPOWERED and they should realize they are NOT at fault for the devastating tragedy being done to them.
When we get there we can discuss step two.
Tzippi: Probably as long as it takes for the community to realize the FULL EXTENT of the trageds.
AD HASOIF MAMASH. with NO sugar coating whatsoever!!
Then and only then will the change happen.
And when that happens the change will be VERY VERY swift in coming..
And THEN the girls will have a yeshua.
THIS and ONLY THIS is their true HOPE.
NOTHING ELSE WHATSOEVER
Rochelle:
“Why I take it to heart”.
My siblings are married, my siblings in law are marreid, my cousing of eligble age are all married and I have no children in or close to shidducim.
Why do you think I take it to heart?
Rochelle:
Why do you think the chassidim don’t have a shidduch crisis? (they actually have a slight boy problem) but why don’t they have the Agunos and Akaros problem? That’s a very good question. How badly do you care to know the answer?
Squeak: In fact Rav Shmuel personally used similar terminology to me when we discussed the issue. What you don’t understand is the terminology is not a way to encourage boys to marry them. Who would want to marry a “nebach” anyway??
Wolf: I guess you are smarter than The Ballei Tosafos and rav shteinman who clearly equated the two.
OOMIS: I will encouarage ALL yeshovos to edit their Gemaros Kiddushin and block that line of TOSAFOS. In addition someone should go to Rav Shteinman and let him no that Oomis disagrees with what he choose to write in the KOl KOREI.
What you fail to undersand dear Oomis is as follows.
THE BEST THING FOR THESE GIRLS IS FOR THE COMMUNITY TO SEE THEIR DEVASTATING SITUATION FOR WHAT IT IS AND NOT I REPEAT NOT SUGAR COAT IT. SUGAR COATING IT IS HURTING THE GIRLS NOT HELPING THEM
Bodek: how badly to you want me to tell you the secret powers that YOU posses.
Tzippi: The girls are absolutely NOT the problem. BUT the first thing they can do is to stop blaming themselves.
Then and only then we can discuss unleashing the secret power they have.
IT is THE power that will solve the crisis.
I am not talking excuses I am talking reality. This girl that girl of course one can nit pick.
ON the communal there is NOTHING they can do to directly alleviate their situation as tehy are already doing EVERYTHING right and still have no HOPE
but they do have a secret power.
BUT it starts with them realizing that it is NOT their fault and they need to stop blaming themselves and stop listening to the FALSE HOPE being put out there.
Rochelle:
People focus on this boys did this/this girl did that and lose sight of the big picture that you see so CLEARLY
hundreds and hundreds of AGUNOS AND AKAROS
due to NO fault of their own
volvie: Girls Don’t control who they are redd to
Bodek and Volvie let me know when you want to know what is the ONE thing (ACTION) girls can do to alleviate the COMMUNAL situation
What ACTION can be taken.
Girls being open to date boys who are their age or younger is not the answer as that isn’t the source of the problem.
Bodek: How badly to you want the answer?
It starts with the girls realizing that they are NOT at fault. STOP blaming yourself/themselves.
This is a critical step one.
It has to be understood enmasse AD HASOIF
and YOU can help teach them
Tzippi:
That’s step one:
The girls need to realize they are NOT at fault. STOP blaming yourself/themselves
Bodek: that’s NOT what I was referring to. I know the girls have done that and it doesn’t help (certainly not on a collective level).
Volvie: wrong and wrong
Let me know when you want the answer
But YOU can do something……..
Bodek: I have not pointed any fingers (you can check my posts on that thread).
I believe in helping to solve a problem not assessing blame.
The girls are absolutely NOT NOT NOT I think I made that clear in the earlier post.
The communal tragedy we are facing was created despite the girls doing EVERTHING right!
volvie: How badly do you want to know the answer?
The LAST thing I want is to cause these girls
The second to last thing I want I want is to pity these girls.
What i WANT is to help these girls get MARRIED
These girls need to realize it is NOT their fault that they are single. They have done EVERYTHING they need to do.
They have davened
They have done chesed
They have gone to the proper schools
They have done segulos (whatever)
ENOUGH – they have done Enough,
and yet it doesn’t help
STOP with the FALSE hope.
They need to stop beating themselves up. Stop focusing inward, instead band together focus outward and DEMAND the necessary changes be made – then they will ALL get married.
These girls are the ONLY ones NOT at fault for causing the tragic problem
oomis1105:
Before I answer can I ask does it really matter??
It wasn’t halachic and it wasn’t biological and yet tosafos refers to them as agunos.
False hope is hurting these girls not helping them.
when we face up to the reality of the situation
That very very large numbers are not getting married (AGUNOS) and thus not having children (Akaros)
Then change will happen swiftly
FYI: see tosafos beginging second perek of kiddushin who uses Aguna to refer to girls not getting married due to societal issues.
tomim tihye: It must have felt felt really really nice to be appreciated. isn’t it sad that 496 others didn’t do something similar.
EDITED
From Bodek: “But there are not that many boys 1-3 years older than me, left in my circles.”
I just wish the world would wake up and smell the coffe.
Bodek, If you are game please contact the NASI project they are always looking for more people to help out.
shev143: I’m sure your father in laws friend was more than happy. As for your good family friend it probably depends how often and much time she spent. If it was like one time here’s a name – that’s one thing. If she really looked out for you and put in time and effort I would think everyone likes to be shown appreciation. She may be a saint but we have no permission to expect someone else to be a saint. HUMANS appreciate being appreciated.
Wouldn’t you??
Boredjewishguy:
And I was just pointing out that those thank don’t come. Not soon not later, not EVER.
wolf: correct and that number should be relatively equal for boys and girls. BUt it is NOT even close!
Volvie: In all likelihood-Correct.
It doesn’t seem like Hashem is going to create hundreds of 28-35 year old boys overnight. Best we can hope for is to eliminate the problem going forward and help some of the older girls (i’m not giving a specific age) via a trickle up effect).
I apologize if this truth is to hard to bear. but it IS the TRUTH
No wonder so many of these girls become disenchanted with frumkeit etc. Can anyone blame them?
This thread was referring to people who are somewhat more active in shidducim and what is standard compensation. for them. see post from azoi.is from a few days ago..
boredjewishguy: Bad excuse for not properly thanking the shadchan. thank them next week or the week after but don’t treat them like a rag to be used and discarded.
oomis1105:
1. The term Agunos was the term Rav Ahraon Leib Shteinman used to describe their plight.
2. Aklaros is a accurate description of all the girls who will never get married and thus never get married.
When the community starts seeing the tragedy for what it is AGUNOS and AKAROS and not girls who are waiting a bit to get married.
THEN and ONLY then WIll we save these girls…
The R”Y advising NASI are well aware of what you mentioned and frankly there is no choice. The world is still sleeping. when the desperation of these girls and their families is focused outward instead of inward the necessary changes will happen.
Additionally the girls were trying to get married asap before NASI came around. They aren’t dumb they know how many of their relatives and friends are older and single with little hope. The awareness has broken the stigma and created new opportunities for the slightly older girls. See Bodek’s comment. What she meant was is that she is getting yesses she never would have gotten 5 years ago. Get with the program there aren’t to many 27 year old boys around (in yeshiva circles for sure.) In addition the awareness has started the ball rolling towards structural change that will solve the problem long term and short term.
Sad that these changes are looooong in coming and many girls will be lost because the changes that WILL happen will happen to late for them…
shev143: pls see rochelle comment “the fact is that if a shidduch doesn’t go through the parties are very rude to the shadchanim. As if its their fault. Not even a thank you, usually. “
Bodek:
you don’t know who I am so I’m not sure what you meant by “my place in olam habah”. I’m just a YWCR blogger on behalf of age gap…
When I say there is a long way to go. I don’t mean I have to work hard.
I mean YOU and EVERY single person in the community better get cracking if we want to save these Agunos and Akaros…. There is NO time to waste. It is URGENT and Desperate!
shev143:
In my honest opinion if you got to a 6th date I think the shadchan deserves more than a thank you.
And most barely even say thank you. They call the next day and say. So who do you have for me/my child now…
boredjewishguy:
“If the shaddchan is helpful and spends a lot of time working for me, I would feel obligated to pay something even if the shidduch didn’t go through.”
Correct!! and yet less than 1% of our community practices that. This is what is so hurtful to shadchanim.
(if it was a easy cinch of a shidduch the shadchanim are generally more than happy with the numbers you mentioned above- of course)
Bodek: “i am very greatful for your involvement in the “closetheagegap” issue – these days many shidduchim are being redd for me of boys my age.
five years ago this would have been unheard of…
MUCH MUCH APPRECIATED
but there is a still a very very LONG way to go to help/prevent from continuting ALL the Agunos and Akaros (yes older single girls are aguons and akaros-sorry for being so blunt)
Bodek: Hello! they are not upset that it didn’t work out. That’s the process and they keep on trying. The Shadchanim would like the families to appreciate the hours they spent trying their darndest to help YOU (your child) get married. Quality dates take a LOT of time/energy/investment on the shadchans part.
RECOGNIZE THAT!
(Rochelle can give us some specifics)
Bodek: I am not a shadchan by any stretch of the imagination. But I am in contact with shadcahnim frequently – due to my involvement in the close the age gap concept.
Yes shadchanim do expect a lot more then $20. Do you think they shouldn’t????
As I posted above “common in the tri-state area is 1,000-1,500 each side” and Shadchanim are okay with that.
What the shadchanim can’t accept is how they are totally not appreciated for all time and energy invested when the shiddcuh goes to 3/4/5 dates and then falls apart.
I’m sure Rochelle can fill us in on this angle..
Rocehlle: Thanks for the insight into the life of a shadchan.
FYI-ten messages is relatively low. the busier shadchanim get close to 100 calls a day….
and you see how it takes over your Mother in Laws life with a fraction of that volume.
Then we compensate the shadchan by giving $20- and wonder why there are no more shadchanim..