GAW: what do you mean by adding 10% more chairs 5x. that sounds interesting. how do you propose bringing that about?

GAW: some work has been done to see if the numbers of boys/girls “going off” are significantly out of wack.

To clarify for the purpose of these discussions going off means -and not getting married in the normal orthodox scene. If a individual boy/girl has R”L a rough few years and by 20/23 whatever is back in the scene B”H, then for the purposes of our discussions it is not relevant what took place earlier.

To answer your question: To date no concrete hard data has been shown. Insights from people who actively deal with the at risk situation seem split as to whether the problem is roughly equal or more boys R”L are becoming and staying irreligous, but it doesn’t seem like anyone has do date done a real study. It would be a great help if you would be able to cull that info together. It is very possible that this issue further diminishes the available chairs vis a vis the participants making thus an already cruel game even worse. However no one thinks or has any reason to believe that the numbers of boys staying irreligious is anywhere remotely near the the number of extra participants.

BP: If only you were correct. You seem to argue that the girls are saying no etc. the result should thus been masses of older single boys who never go a fair shake from the girls.I won’t debate you, i’ll only say that info on the ground doesn’t support your theory.

PBA/ Ben Torah

I am maintaining that the number of older single girls DWARFS by the hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands the number of older single guys). THAT is a direct result of it not having been a level playing field at any time.

For sure there are older single guys and there will always be individuals who have difficulty finding their zivug. However the massive discrepancy is what i refer to when discussing the shidduch tragedy.

And I guess the data from the Boys HS alumni lists listed them as married incorrectly.

i’m not sure i follow you argument. But I think you are claiming that there are plenty and plenty of chairs (boys) still out there just they aren’t in center court and the players/participants (girls) all insist only on center court boys….

In a nutshell I posited that the boys are by and large ALL getting married. I think you deny that.

I have one question

Where are all those boys hiding… No one seems to be able to find them. Sure there are some older boys around but where are the masses and masses of non center court boys you talk about.

Tzippi,

welcome back.

1. support, “mishegos” etc. have a minimal if any impact on TOTAL number of shidduchim/participants who land chairs, simply who gets the chairs, same for a apushatayid’s comment.

2. However, this isn’t the thread where i’ll debate those points. If you have ideas for easing the numbers which you readily admit is a chunk of the problem we are all ears.

3. I don’t think any poster mentioned anywhere that it is “forbidden” to suggest a shidduch that isn’t close in age. The discussion is simply how to facilitate that far far more such shidduchim take place. Either by increasing chairs or decreasing participants.

4. and of course if you think/believe/have evidence of other contributing factors to the problem. BY ALL MEANS get to work and alleviate them. For whatever it counts I’ll be your biggest fan.

mw13:

If you feel it aint broke feel free to ignore this thread. This thread is positing that there are more, far more participants than chairs and looking for ways to solve that. if you don’t believe that to be the case feel free to ignore.

Lkwd fellow:

you either misread or didn’t understand what I wrote. It is of course true that any specific participant has a opportunity and the more open she is to things she may not think is a l’chatchila for her, the greater the chance that that specific participnat will find a chair. This is true for particpants at all stages of the game.

HOWEVER, so long as there are far more participants than chairs there is simply no way for all the participants to land chairs.

(just note the earlier on in the game the less cruel it is. If the first year in the game there are say 2200 participants and 2000 chairs, a few years later there may be 400 particpants and 200 chairs, and a few years later there may be 250 participants and 50 chairs.)

lkwdfellow: I prefer to think of every individual as a gem. There are posters here who refer to various segments as less than top tier. I apologize for any reference otherwise that i may have implied. I certainly didn’t mean anything other than to respond to previous posters.

Now to the issue at hand.

Lkwdfellow/BP Totty: you continue to argue that there are equal chairs for the participants, if only participants would consider other chairs, in other rooms etc. I once again will posit that that is simply incorrect and that is the premise of this thread. If you disagree with that premise so be it – but denying the premise doesn’t serve as a solution to it.

I repeat, i would like this thread to stay focused on that premise and solutions to it. Those who disagree/deny or are otherwise bothered by it are free ignore the thread.

BP Totty:

The statement that the school at 22% should learn from the school at under 10% is a clear misunderstanding of the problem.

In musical chairs there are only so many chairs. if the school at 22% “did things differently” then their numbers would perhpas get better and a different schools numbers would get worse. There are only so many chairs to go around. However, this is not a point i have any interest in debating in this thread.

Re: your suggestion, Pls clarify how “taking charge of there own destiny” will increase chairs or decrease participants.

SjSinNYC & DR Pepper:

If having singles meet on there own would encourage boys to date girls w/o paying attention to ages (and thus to date girls close to their won age,) then it definatly has potential.

From what I’ve heard it’s quite difficult to get the chairs to come to those events becuase they are sitting pretty with plenty of participants to choose from.

If you can make it happen GO FOR IT!!

As for the stima being broken B”H, to date that has been a very siginificant achivement that has come about from the awareness and edcuation of the Age Gap concept.

BP Totty:

Nice idea but a singles weekend neither adds chairs nor decreases participants. As such please explain how it changes the cruel game going on. Perhpas it will change which participants land chairs and which are left out when the music stops, but it won’t/doesn’t change the nature of the game.

PBA: Glad to see I have captured you attention and imagination.

Step #2. Reduce the participants.

If people compensated shadchanim for producing achievable results (date #2/date #4) inevitably the slightly older girls would get far more attention as it is they/their families/their communities/their schools, who would most likely appreciate/compensate the shadchanim for their efforts. If slightly older girls are getting more attention that equals fewer dates for the younger girls, thus reducing the new participants each year.

There are additional side benefits to the community if/when such a concept becomes commonplace, but I am limiting this to the direct effect on the musical chairs problem

A.Will it actually make an appreciable difference.

Yes

B.Is it implementable; will people do it?

Yes

C. Will it create other problems; will it be worth it?

Absolutely!

sdhn:

one question: who are all the “not good boys marrying”. As per you evaluation the number of participnats and chairs would be the same and the result should be “good” participnats and “not good” chairs left over staring at each other, sadly that isn’t the case.

As I mentioned earlier i ask that this thread focus on suggestions for solving the musical chairs problem. For those who don’t believe that to be the case or who have a haskafic problem with that notion feel free to start you own thread.

As such I will not point out the inaccuracies in the arguments made by DE and other posters.

It does seem like the CR is at wits end for presenting effective potential solutions for the cruel game of musical chairs.

My “agenda” has been stated and restated numerous times. I would cherish new ideas to alleviate this cruel game of musical chairs.

Deliberately_Esoteric:

“And before you tell me that G-d had it all worked out and we bumbling mortal fools came and wrecked His Plan, realize what you are saying about His omniscience and clairvoyance and decide yourself if that rebuttal is heresy.”

You hit the nail on the head.

Regarding accepting blame:

Realizing it is in the numbers that we ourselves caused and brought this tragedy upon ourselves (by our dating patterns) is step one is solving the problem. Recognizing our mistakes and taking targeted corrective action is the responsible thing to do.

However if I may, I prefer not to debate the notion in this thread, but rather simply to disucss potential solutions how to end the cruel game.

says who:

Chairs are the boys see the OP. Blinky suggested that there are plenty of chairs for the participants and the participants aren’t interested.

Blinky,

not marrying or marrying you basherte is simply a question whether those participants who did get a chair, got the “correct” or the “incorrect” chair.

what it doesn’t begin to address is how to solve the problem of not enough chairs for the participants. so long as that is the situation the cruel game with all it’s side factors will continue.

As an aside for those who don’t “believe” this to be the facts on the ground, so be it, I will not try to convince you. This thread is desinged for people who understand this to be the situation and would like to offer creative solutions to put a end to the cruel game.

Blinky: if you don’t “beleive” this to be the facts on the ground please enlighten us where the basherte for all the participants from years ago who are still waiting for their chair, because there are thousands who are still playing the game. Incidentally, the longer the participants stick around the crueler the game gets with fewer and fewer chairs to go around for them. (23 year old chairs don’t play the game with 30+ year old paricipnats)

mw13:

“you don’t see” is why i posted here. perhaps there are some creative thinkers out there who can present viable solutions.

decreasing participants (though difficult to do) would mean they would enter the game at the next round after the present participants are seated up. At the time they enter, once again the number of chairs would be equal to the number of participants so long as continuously the number of entering participants don’t outnumber the entering chairs.

hello99:

feel free to ignore the thread if it makes you uncomfortable

I wish it was a myth but the facts say otherwise

boys get married to girls and still many many girls single (left without chairs to sit on….)

next year same game a bunch new participants and chairs but once again the cruel reality of not enough chairs for the participants.

BP Tatty

The shadchanim don’t supply the chairs, they just play the music.

PBA

to bad there aren’t that many chairs in that room either.