TMB: tha’s only half the equation. Popultion growh is the other. Since we don’t plan on changing that (i assume), inevitably it will be necessary to work on the girls end as well-indirecttly of course. Thus the concept of gettig more attention for the slightly older girls comes into play.

Klac: Because that is a total fabrication though i won’t go into it in this forum. And it’s something that many R”Y would like to see changed for numerous reasons.

It not you- YET 🙂

when your community sees how effecitve it is in the other communities they will not doubt adopt the concept…

TMB: And i pointed out the inacurracy of your statment. Family sizes have exploded Bla”h in the last 20 years and that causes a signifciant differential for each year younger the girls are in relation to the boys.

In additon the dating structure is more rigid now and thus far far more boys only begin dating closer to 23 whereas 15 years ago far far more boys where dating at 21.5 and 22 etc….

Fell free to contact NASI and they will furnish you will the accturarial study.

APY: The compensation would goes to the shadchan in recofnition of their time and effort. It is awfully hard for a shadchan to get convince someone who is a firm no after date number one to get to date #4.

this is why the dates where #2/#4. Date number 2 really means a decent idea. Anything that’s not a absolute ridiculous idea the shadchan deserves to get compensate $100. To get to date #4 means that it was certainly a solid suggestion and therefore the shadchan would be appreciated that much more.

Of course anyone abusing the project (shadchanim pushing dumb ideas just to pocket money) would be disinvited by that community to partake further.

So far in the communities where it has been implemented that hasn’t happened even once!

Any further questions you honor?

GAW: correct, i wouldn’t say ONLY older girls are serviced, people can redd shidduchim to whomever they want. It will give significant more attention to the slightly older girls.

APY: I beg to differ. Since we have a imbalance, the long term solution is by increasing the number of boys who beging dating each year and decreasing the number of girls who beging dating.

THAT IS THE SOLUTION. The difficult part is to make that happen. Change is hard, big change is very hard. To make that happen in a way that will take hold is the key issue.

This specific project of compensation for date #2/date #4 for slightly older girls is a key part of that big picture solution. The other parts are being worked on as well.

TMB: we have discussed this point at lengnth in previous threads ad nasuem and there is a letter from 70 R”Y attesteing to the obvious truth. The explanation is

1. Our communitites growth rate dwarfs previous generations bli ayin hara. As such the differentail in class size between grades 1 and grades 5 is very significant, with younger grades being by far larger do to population growth. Similarly the differential between age 19 (when the girls start dating) and age 22.5 (when the boys start dating is very significant as well.

2. This automatic result is that the numbers of girls entering the shidduch pool each year far outnumbers the boys entering the pool. Thus we are faced with a cruel game of musical chairs with the boys being chairs and the girls being the participants.

Are we clear?

If you like the accuratial report that documented these findings feel free to contact the NASI organization and I’m sure they’ll oblige. (to contact them i would recoomend calling the Yated and they will give you their number. They do not have a website, and I obviously can’t post their email in this forum)

GAW: why would a kehilla offering to compnesate for date #2/#4 only offer it for the wealthy girls? i fail to understand. I think you still don’t understand the concept that has been tried tested and in the process of being expanded.

In fact it can potentially put the girls with less going for them in a better position as communities could/wil reach out to the appropriate people and egender more attention for those girls who all things being equal would have tended to get less attention.

APY: boys 18-22….. ummm last I checked boys 18-20 weren’t even in the parsha and in many circles till 22…. hence what we call age gap… you are saying it without even realizing it….

we can discuss why they aren’t dating before 22, but the point is so long as they are not we have a serious shortage of males in the game.

APY: and why do you think any boys mother would answer your phone call?

GAW: glad to see you’ve come around.

One slight correction, even if/when the idea becomes widespread, it would hardly be a parnassah, but it would be sufficient to keep people motivated and involved.

APY: The current “societal norms and expectations” are all messed up and is the cause of all our problems.

That is exactly what i meant by age gap… current societal norms that dictate that 23 year old guys are dating 19 year old girls.

change that and you have solved the crisis. (B”H much progress has been made and shadchanim report that the stigma againgst boys dating girls thier own age or slightly older has been broken, as such they are easily able to redd shidduchim that a few years ago the mothers of boys would have hung up on them for suggesting.)

garnering tremendous amount of attention for slightly older girls will have that effect-hence my enocuraging the compensation for achivable results.

APY: A shadchan makes a reasonable suggestion. it is up to the individual sides to do their own reasearch to to see if they want go ahead. The miserable situtation for the girls that you descirbie is a direct result of the present shidduch crisis where the boys hold a huge advantage.

B”H much progress has been made (with a lot more still to go).

I’ve said it once i’ll say it a million times, equal out the numbers and you’ll solve this problem as well problem…..

The suggestion of compensating for date #2 date #4 will go along way towards equaling the nubmers and from a societal point – as opposed to structural change that needs to come from the top and is being worked on- it is the most effective idea on the table.

GAW: you got it…..

TMB:

I’m not sure what is hard to undersatnd.

1. far far more shidduchim are made by non proffesinals than are made by proffesinals.

2. Thus there is a unlimited number of people who potentially could be invocled in redding shidduchim

3. look around at how hard it is for girls to get attention. obviously. Clearly these non proffesionals aren’t working at it enough. If they where every girl would be innundated with tons of suggestions from her family members, family shul chevra, classmates husbandss etc. How is it that girls go months with out the phone even ringing???? Sure once in a while these “non-profesionals” if they have an idea they’ll try. That’s not going to cut it for the community at large. Hence girls are stuck practically begging for attention from shadchanim. My concpet will have these ppl looking out for their classmates, family friends etc. in a serious way.

Tzippi: I’m sorry you are confused, try re-reading my posts.

Havesomeseichel:

of course we want and need people who are not proffesional shadchanim to get involved. That is exactly my point. the overwhelming majority of “non-proffesionals” quit not long after they start….

Of course when you make a shidduch you feel like a million bucks, but most people quit and never get there… and if they make one they will quit before they make their second……

I am NOT advocating paying a meeting fee (i actually it’s dumb and not prodcutive for the girls for all the reasons mentioned). I am advocating compensating whoever it was that got a girl to date #2/date #4.

Pay for the “service provided” after the service and you will have far far more people gettign involved and STAYING INVOLVED in the process of redding shidducim, and YES you will have a better chance of finding your bashert because will like to look out for those who appreciate their efforts.

Ronrsr:

Is guys 22 – girls 20 soooooo unreasonable……

I think not….

and that would save a thousand girls +

Sounds to me like it’s worth implementing….

Tzippi: As an aside, I’m not sure where you live (though it sounds like out of town) but i didn’t know you can buy a house for 60k.

Sorry to burst your bubble:

As discssed at length the reason for the present crisis has very little to do with the stlye fo dating. as such changing to the chadisshe model (even if it happened) would do little to alleviate the terrible situation.

Unless you mean to change to the ages at which chassidim start dating….. short of that it won’t help much….

Coffe fan:

Since when do people have a right to call shadcahnim at all hours of the day and night to ask for their assistance in shidduchim? And I mean, ALL hours.

Since when do shadchanim (who don’t take money up front) owe anyone anything?

Since when do people have a right to go over to prevent shadchanim from ever enjoying a simchas by approaching them one after another after another to introduce them to their daughter etc….?

Clearly the present system is broken.

Realize shadchanim (who don’t take money up front) owe you absolutely NOTHING.

Realize that the shadchanim who take $150 up front (some organizations), is simply to put you on their database and they will try. They offer nothing more nothing less. (They should say so up front).

It’s your decision if you do or do not want to pay them for that. (I for one would NOT.)

FYI- I am NOT a shadchan

For all intents and purposes this is a totally irrelevant question

Of Course:

Thanks for the plug but how would you know me other that from The CR, and other than the fact that people in the CR have come around in a big way, what other results do you speak of.

Please share… it’s helpful for people to be made aware of the progres that has been made…

Dunno:

1. For that exact reason the concept will first be implemented by shuls on behalf of their congregrants, classmates on behalf their still single friends, communityes on behalf of their daughters. This way there is no financail deterrent on the individual to continue.

2. It is extremely inexpensive. Most regular girls do not date even 4 guys four x’s each.

3. It will bring tons more people into in the field of redding shidduchim as people tend to get involved in activities where they feel succesful, appreciated and thanked

netazar: lets assume each shul has 10 girls between 21-30.

It’s a few thousand dollars and they will garner tremendous attention for their girls. Let each shul figure out how to make it happen. But it should happen asap!

Ofcourse: you are sooo correct it is scary. Data was collected from a wide variety of girls HS across North America, girls who have been dating 5+ years and the number still single is shocking. We are way past debating if the tragedy exists. We are focusing on effecitve implementable soultions.

Trying:

you being cyinical or serious….

The traditional shadchan route will no longer work. There are simply far to many people who need to get married and not nearly enough insane people who are ready to take on the thankless job of being a shadchan.

It’s high time shadchanim (and anyone else who dabbles) is rewarded for their efforts even when a couple doesn’t get engaged.

A Shadchan can NOT get anyone engaged. Due to the NASI’s projects access to many shadchanim they were offered on more than one occasion 50k to get a specific girl engaged.

Their response

“Give it to G-D, HE’S the only one who can get your daughter engaged, unfortunately (for you) HE doesn’t care about your money”

All a shadchan can do it get girls/boys attention, quality dates. a few quality dates and most are engaged.

When shadchanim (and regular people) are treated as successes for getting a couple to date #2/date #4, then far more people would be involved.

So long as you are (treated as) a failure unless they get engaged,,, well then we will continue to only have a handful of borderline insane people who willingly subject themselves to failure, abuse and harassment….

When shadcanim are truly appreciated and compensated (it’s actually very very cost effective as proven by the Montreal Project) for their tireless efforts, time commitment, and total dedication, we will have a army of people ready to get involved.

1. how would you or the other singles know who shadchanim have set up.

2. of course (no pun intended) the big names get attention…. but to brush with the broad strokes you are using is simply incorrect and unfair.

3. try getting a list from the shadchanim “on the right” of the shidduchimn they have made in the last 2 years. I think you’ll be quite fascinated.

4. here’s a little secret. shadachanim focuse on the girls whom they can get dates for, afterall they are in the business of making making shidducim. if a girl and her family are easy to deal with they will look out for her regardless of the family standing.

5. if you’ve set up hundreds of couples in the last few years, KOL HAKAVOOD. you would certainly know the work that goes in to getting it there. (i find it hard to beleive that you’ve set up hundreds of dates and have made one shidduch. something doesn’t sound right.)

Of course:

Off the top let me state clearly, I am not a shadchan.

Having been heavily involved in the issue for the 3 years and counting, and having been in frequent contact with tens of shadchanim as well as parents and singles in the parsha, allow me to point out the inaccuracies of your comments as well as make suggestions as to what actually works and what doesn’t work.

1.Shadchanim don’t return phone call.

The shadchanim you refer to receive 100 new phone calls a day. They are empoyed by no one and have no secretary. Do you think it’s feasable to return all the phone calls? Do you thinks it’s even smart. They call the people that they have tachlis to tell. Obviously someones getting calls, they are setting people up and people are getting married.

Here a little experiment. Ask those shadchanim who you are lambasting for a list of the shidduchim they have made in the last year or two. I can gurantee that the overwhelming majority of the girls whose shidduchim they have made would perfectly fit your description of regular nice middle class girls.

BY FAR the overwhelming numbers of shadchanim are kind and genuinely trying to help whomever the can and are fair minded.

4. Impossible to get a Shadchan list

5. Shadchanim today work much harder for their rich clientele than the middle class, see what I wrote to question number 2.