Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
APY-
your comment abuot the gamut is on the mark. clearly the sytsem is broken. The model I have promoted will go along way towards working on both sides.
Ever wonder why the feelings run sooo strong on both sides of the issue… IS there a comparable field where the people helping and the people being helped have such strong opposite feelings?
APY:
“Are there any professional shadchannim reading this? What is YOUR take?”
this was one shadchan’s recent response in the Yated
A Shadchan
PBA: and the posters ought to realize it is a halacha shayla having to do with gezel, ani hamihapech, etc.
Miamigirl: and you wonder why so many young couples dabble in redding shidduchim and then quit. When people are treated like failures, feel like failures, they quit. If the young people, especially relatively newly marrieds, who tried and got some dates going where appreciated for their time and effort they would stick with it and girls (especiall slighlty older ones) would be getting much much more attention.
This is not about Shadchanim “as in proffesinals”, this is simply a effective way to generate far more people paying attention to the slighlty older girls.
I don’t know about you but getting to a date number four is not easy at all. if you think any silly idea get there, well it doesn’t.
Goq: probaly means that they will realize they were appreciated for the time and effort they extended. when treated like that most humans reciprocate. As opposed to quiting or focusing on the people who don’t aprreciate and aren’t thankful for the time you spent on them.
Interesting that no one realizes this is actually a halacha question and depending on the situation the halacha differs…
visit http://www.businesshalacha.com/chaburos/interferance-ani-mihapech-bicharara
Rav Nochum Sauer is the Rosh Chabura for the LA weekly chabura and he recently covered this sugya.
and here’s is a brief synopsis though not guranteed for accuracy
Standing on line:
Does a sick person at end of line have a right to go to the front?
What if the person at end of line has only 1 small quick item to buy, does he have to wait for all the other customers with much bigger loads?
What if the person at end of line will miss tefilah btzibur, or he’ll miss his carpool, can he move to the front?
First come, first serve: What is the halachic basis of this and what are the exceptions?
Sanhedrin 32: tzedek tzedek sometimes din, sometimes pshara compromise.
If two boats can’t pass at the same time or two camels can’t pass a narrow area at the same time then which boat or camel can go first?
If one is loaded with a lot of merchandise, and it needs to get to port to sell it, or there will be a hefsed, it has the right to go first. That is the tzedek, right and fair.
Or if one is closer to its city the one with the longer distance to go should go first.
If they are both equal, both loaded, both same distance, then make a pshara one lets the other go, but the other has to compensate the one that has to wait.
Meiri (Sanhedrin 32) defines the parameters. It depends on whats just and whats equitable. Whoever has less hardship is pushed aside, and so too a healthy person is pushed aside for a person who is sick. So too, for a bais din, there is an order yasom, almana, talmid chacham before am ha-aretz, and woman before a man to minimize the embarrassment.
There is a concept of zechus Ha-tor. If all else is equal, then makdimim ha-kodem first come first serve also based on tzedek tzedek tirdof. In a doctors office, if a person is very sick, he should come first, even when its not really pikuach nefesh.
Similarly, at the airport, we should let someone at back of the line go first so that they dont miss their plane.
What is the issur of cutting in front of someone in line? —
Possibly tzedek tzedek tirdof like Meiri.
Rav Elyashiev (hizaharu bmamon chavreichem) its avak gezel (shades of gezel). Possibly he means gezel zman.
Others say its like ani hamehapech you are taking away a certain opportunity that the first person has (he had the opportunity to finish his task sooner).
This is not something thats aino matzui like hefker or metzia, so even acc to R Tam ani hamehapech would apply.
Pischei Choshen (Rav Bloy?) ch 9 : cutting in line is not an issur of ani hamehapech you are not being kone an object. You are only causing a loss of zman, — there is no cheftza. He thinks the issur is based on minhag hamedina.
Mishpetei Torah (r Shpitz) (siman 84): it could be an issur of lo sonu ish es achiv. You are causing anguish to someone else. Also, there is potential chilul Hashem and machlokes.
R Zalman Nechemia Goldberg (quoted in Halachos of other peoples money R Bodner, Feldheim publishers) its a gezel from the owner of the store. The owner does not want people to cut in line which will cause chaos and customers will not come back so not following the rules of the baal bayis is like trespassing which is an issur gezel.
Cutting to the front of line:
You have to ask reshus of everyone on line, not just the first person.
Steipler on the bus:
He was standing at the back of the line, and he said he would only go to the front if everyone agreed, and he said he would be a gazlan if he went to the front without reshus. A bus might be more chamur than other cases since there are a limited number of seats it might be close to gezel. (He did not want to rely on his being a talmid chacham).
If someone is standing in line, can you hand a few items to him to buy for you rather than you having to wait in the long line yourself?
What if you give him the items before he gets in line?
Mishpetei Torah: you are not allowed to give the person in line extra things to buy for you. He was standing in line for himself. The tzedek and the yosher is that he buys only his own stuff. Before he gets on the line then its ok to give him a few extra things to buy. He could have bought more stuff for himself, so he can add things for someone else.
R Shpitz says that even if you are giving the stuff to him before he gets on line there is a limit you cant give him more that what a person would normally reasonably buy for himself.
If you are in line, and you forgot something, you dont lose your space, unless you are leaving for a long time.
If you are leaving for a long time, you lose your spot in the line.
I for one am NOT a proponenet of community hired shadchanim. It has produced very mixed results. I don’t bleieve that it is very effective. One shadchan can not foucs on tens or hundreds of girls, and the cost to pay salaries to enought shadchanim to look out for a community is clearlyl prohibitive.
I’m a proponent of compensating whomever it is that gets a quality date set up. That DOES work. and it gets attention from far more than just the one hired shadcahn. This is a way that HS teachers, recent married alumnin AND shadchanim from all over will give attention to that community.
it works-try it!
SAM:
1. the exact age gap is hard to put a number on it, but as of 3 years ago the research that was done revealed approximately 3 to 3.5 differential. I don’t know if any updated research has been done.
2. What has been done so far is raise awareness about the issue. That led to the most significant accomplishment to date i.e. breaking the stigma against slightly older girls. It’s not 100% yet, but shadchanim say they can redd shidduchim (girls the same age as the boys or even slightly older) that 3 years ago they wouldn’t have gotten to first base with.
3. The current efforts are helping the older girls as there is a trickle up effect. The faster the community moves at implementing the various ideas needed to alleviate the Age Gap, the better the chance for the already older girls to still get married.
4. Boys starting to date slightly (only slightly) younger is very much in play as that has the capacity to save A THOUSAND girls. However this is not the forum to divulge details of what is being worked on. When it comes to fruition i’m sure you won’t miss it.
Dunno:
If shadchanim where compensated for bringing about date number 2 and date number 4 then
1. we would have hundreds more quality shadchanim
2. slightly older girls would get tons of attention
3. it would be better for all the girls as many many more people would be looking out for them.
I’m not saying its a halachic obligation (it’s not so long as that has not yet become standard minhag). I’m simply saying that it will work and it will make shidduchim easier all around. Not by paying ahead of time for their attention, but instead by treating them like successes if your child goes to a date numbe 2 and date number 4.
Communities that have tried are very very pleased witht he results and other communities and org are looking to duplicate it.
Demo: your post is great, except that pre-paying isn’t nearly as effective as showing appreication and compensating for whatever quality attention you received.
1. correct….. if we were starting from scratch a AVERAGE one year age gap would be fine.
2. To correct it going forward i.e. to make sure all new girls starting to date should not get stuck, we would need to close the AVERAGE gap by slightly more one month per year unitl the average differential is approx one year. (the math is not for the CR)
3. In order to help the hundreds and hundreds (thousands) of already slightly older girls, the pace of closing the Age Gap needs to be accelerated in the near future. The sooner it’s done the more girls that will be saved.
4. Being the its not possible to bring about societal change by x number of months per year, what we need is that the changes that take place societal, attitudinal, structural, should have that effect.
RE: you statements re: the orthodox community in Euprope. Like I said, it is wholly irrelevant and I for one have zero interest in debating the issue. However for starters please show clear factual DATA, proven numbers, NOT conjecture as to populaton growth in europe 1880-1900. Then pleasse show hard data as to the average age at which young men and women began dating. Please don’t tell me about this family or that family that had 9 children.
I for one have NOT done serious studying as to what was then, being that it’s not relevant to the question at hand. However, from the little research that I have done (as well as what I saw growing up and in my parents generation.) class sizes and family sizes are far larger now then they where 30 40 years ago.
Please bear in mind that the in europe many many children died as infants, as young children etc. you need to show family size of children that made it to marriagable age.
However, I think i’m finished debating this irrelevant angle. Unless the R”Y do a about face and say they want to know why Rabbi Akiva Eiger wasn’t concerned with the issue.
So far, to date, none of the R”Y or Gedolim approached had that concern, and thus neither do I.
Cedarhurst-Memo:
1. There is no need to eliminate the age gap totally. Overtime what is required is aprox one year differencital. that is becaue there are actually more male births each year than female in the North American White Caucasian community. No only that, but it doesn’t need to be (and shouldn’t be)accomplished overnight.
2. This is NOT accomplished by micro-managaing but as PBA mentions by eliminating age bias as well as figuring out ways to brighe the ages at which boys and girls start dating.
3. B”H tremendous progress has been made but there is a need for a lot lot more.
SAM:
1. What Sara Schinerer did was brand new as are many many organizations.
2. You are incorrect regarding population growth and typical family sizes but as i’ve said before it is a totally irrelevant argument. Unless you are suggesting that
a. the previous generations had the problem
b. it was brought the the attention of the Gedolim along with the age gap explanation
c. the Gedolim DECIDED that nothing should be done.
I don’t think you actually believe all of these three statements to be true. As such, it’s a moot issue what happened 200 years ago.
Perhaps they didn’t have the problem.
Perhps no one chapped the age gap concept (much like none of the Gedolim or R”Y of our generation chapped it until it was presented to them).
Perhaps no one came up with any ideas how to alleviate it (much like in our genetation that it took close to two years from when it was brought to the attention of the Gedolim and R”Y, until anty concrete action was taken i.e. the NASI Project was launched by a regular person who approached R”Y and Gedolim with the concept and receives constant guidance from them).
Either way, it’s really irrelevant as long as you agree that presently this is the situation and there is what to be done about it.
Memo: I don’t think you really belive what you are writing. I think you would agree that a regular normal nice 19 year old girl shouldn’t necessarily consider a divorced boy with 3 children. However if that same girls is still single 19 years later, I think you would agree that as a 38 year old single perhaps she should.
Like everything else in life. It all depends on the situation. But clearly as a single gets a bit older they should adjust what they are looking for. (Obviouslya person should never marry a abusive mean spouse. However, there’s a lot of gray between what a stary eyed 19 year old girl is looking for and what a single 35 year old girl should be ready to say yes to. When that adjustment should take place depends on the each persons situation)
SAM:
1. As PBA explained it is 9,000 guys and 9,000 gals with 1,000 gals left over…..
2. The people who disovered the Age Gap problem (actually 2 actuaries) where probably hiding together with the starters of Hatzalah, Misaskim, Bonei Oilam, Yad Eliezer, etc. etc.
Here’s a question. Sara Schinere started the bais yaakcov movement. Why wasn’t it started 10 years or even 5 years earlier. And the chutzpah of her to start it! I mean after all if the gedolim didn’t start it, who was she. (Even when she tried to start it, she went to the gedolim, and many where against it, but a few like the chafetz chaim and gerer rebbe ecouraged it, and the rest is history.)
As an aside Population growth has exploded bli ayin harah in the last 30 years
More importantly-I don’t even think this is a issue worth debating. If you agree with that there is a massive probelm-and you do.
If you agree that Age Gap is a clear explanation- and you do
If after having been presented to our present day Gedolim and R”Y they have strongly encouraged efforts to deeal with it – and they have
I don’t thing there’s much to debate.
SAM:
3. In addition this age gap induced problem is a relatively new phenamona (case in point-how many siblings did your parents and their friends have vs. how many families these days have 8/9 children).
Psach:
APY:
Sam I Am:
over a period of 10 years the numbers of boys and girls getting married are obviously equal. However, in a situation with a significant growth in population and a different starting age for dating, the number of Boys trying to get married (who entered the pool during those 10 years) is fewer than the numbers of girls trying to get married (who entered the pool during those 10 years). Thus 10,000 boys marry 10,000 girls but there are additional 1,000 girls who where looking to marry during that time and now have no one to marry.
Please let me know if this clarifies things for you.
As for your question regarding why wasn’t anything done before the last five years. I won’t go into explaining why this problem is arelatively new phenomana (has to do with populatin explosion in our communities B”H over the last 25 years and dating style pracitally every guy going to EY etc. ) but if you follow your logic I guess you would wonder why Hatzaloh wasn’t aroung 30 years before it began it must be that the leaders of the generation decided it should NOT be done. What chuzpah to start a organiztion like Misaskim that the gedolim where against (after all its relatively new). And the same could be said for pratically any organization, institutaion, program that is created to help the klal.
Why didn’t the gedolim to it 20 years earlier.
I would hope your realize the fault of your argument.
Shtarky:
WRONG. I know (as well as the R”Y advising the NASI Project) that this is self inflicted and there is ALOT we can do to solve it. There are people very busy and b”h being very effective in implementing ideas and suggestions to close the age gap and alleviate the crisis.
APY:
If you don’t see it, it is simply because your aren’t finely in tune with the goings on.
1. I didn’t say it was solved I said it is working as is evidenced by the fact that boys and their mothers are far far more willing to say yes to girls their own age and even a bit older. However, we have a LONG LONG way to go to solve it and the model i have been promoting (to generate more attention for the slightly older girls) is a very effective step.
2. Please name the R”Y who name appears on the letter who disagrees with the 3 points in the letter. I find it hard to believe. I’m not sure what ad you are reffering to. The letter from 70 R”Y was faxed/brought over and hand signed by each and every one one the letter. Nothing was added or changed after they signed. NASI probably still has the original signatures. Please let me know the name of the R”Y your mention and I’ll ask them to send you the letter with his signature. (There was one R”Y – Rabbi Frenkel-who after it was published asked to pull his name and his name wasn’t printed in the subsequent printings.)
(I’m actually curious which of the 3 points being you claim the R”Y diagrees with.
a. the main cause of the shidduch crisis is Age Gap
c. “We also call on shadchanim , and all others involved in shidduchim, to see to it, as much as possible, that the ages of the boy and girl are close. In addition, shadchanim should
work primarily for girls who are age twenty and above.”
tzippy: I was informed last night that another community just started making plans to implement this concept.
APY- Simply put you are 100% incorrect.
We actually don’t even disagree, you also want close in age shidduchim as per your previous post.
Your issue is that you incorrectly think that enouraging close in age shidduchim which WILL lead to some boys getting married a bit younger and some girls getting married at 21 instead of 19 has something to do with being unproductive.
Your are entitled to your incorrect observations, and YES I will continue to promote the solution of close in age shidduchim that A. is working B. has been encouraged by a broad range of Gedolim and R”Y.
Not only that but the result that you are looking for i.e. that boys and girls willing begin dating at closer ages will actually be the natural result of the efforts being extended.
To date no one has ever encouraged groups of girls to delay dating. However, when it becomes commonplace for shadchanim to give more attention to girls who are 20/21+ and for boys to look for them l’chatchila, inevitable more girls will look to be productive when they come home from seminary in ways that even you would be please with.
shtarky: Some food for thought.
Do you find it funny how people are trying to figure out ways to enable childless couples to have children. Or how to help sick people get healed. What about people who are out of a job. Isn’t it funny that others try to help them (what the Rambam refers to as the greatest form or tzedaka)
I mean afterall you so correctly say
“Hashem has a cheshbon for everyone (I assume this includes childless couples/sick children/people out of jobs as well) and instead of sitting a whole day tring to figure out numbers all you should be doing is BELIEVING. Hashem has never let us down till now dont think he will now.”
As such your would argue there is no need for any person to try to help anyone in any sort of tzara. All we shold be doing is BELEIVE.
Starky: I’m sorry to say but that is a cold hearted COP OUT.
Hudi: Your correctly say it’s a prodcut of golus, As is sick children, childrless couples, struggling people and all tzaros we face individually and collectively.
Do you reccomend we wait for Mashiach to come and until then the tzibbur should not try to help. Somehow I think the tzibbur helping each other might, just might, actually facilitate HIS coming.
Sam I AM: The chassidim have a slight reverse problem. Meaning the boys are the ones having the difficulty with shidduchim. It is based on the same age gap concept in reverse.
By chassidim boys date at 18/19 the same age as the girls. (this causes the boys to have a problem because there are actually slighlty more male births each year than female births. This is actually a slight mitigating factor in the shiddcuch situation by the non chassidishe but not nearly enough to alleviate the population growth x dating age problem.
Which non chasidishe communities? ALL. YU connects is quite active in their community. NASI activites and ideas would help all segments of the community.
Sam I AM:
1. It is BOTH factors together. Population growth x girls starting to date at 19/Boys at 23 = AGE GAP. If either factor is not present the problem as we see it will be markedly reduced.
2. In your hypothetical scenario obviously very year there will be unmarried females. Simply because there are more females born in 1814 than there were males born in 1810.
SJS: 21 is NOT old but it is critical to create a sitaution that garners more attention for girls that are 21+ instead of all the attention on the 19 and 20 year olds.
APY: It’s not being kept secret it’s just that not all the details need to be disclosed in this forum. 2 more commnities and one school will be adopting it very shortly.
In a year from now it will imy”h be standard practice across the country.
Crisis is actually a mild term for the pain and suffering the older girls and their families experinece but my goal her is not to raise panic, it’s to help implement effective solutions.
Use whatever term you would like.
Fact is: If we want to alleviate the problem we need to figure out ways to get more shidduchim attention to the 21+ year old girls, and the model i presented is doing exactly that!
APY: you have presented perhaps a explanation how it came to be that girls begin dating younger and guys begin dating later (for the record this crisis exists in the non yeshivsh community as well).
I fully agree with you that this is a self imposed tragedy and people that say the Ribbono Shel olam would never do this (as if we understand his ways) are out to lunch!
What I fail to see is how in any which way that doesn’t jive with what NASI is promoting, namely figuring out ways to encourage more close in age shidduchim which inevitably means over the long term boys starting to date slightly youonger and girls slightly older.
I don’t think we have any disagreement other than that NASI has implemented effective ideas to bring it about and is continuing to do so.
If you have other effective ideas othe than poting in the CR I’m sure they would be very interesteed in hearing. From my dealings with them i have found that they take input from everyone.
See all sides: very well explained!
Sam am I:
you write- “BUT the age gap theory maintains EVEN IF none of the above is applicable there is STILL a male shortage simply due to the fact that (on average) men are getting married later than women.”
that is 100% incorrect!
The age gap theory is predicated on what other posters and I wrote namely that there are far more 1st graders than 5th gradres and far ore 19 year olds than 23 yr olds.
Without that there would be almost NO imbalance of numbers
Pumper: let’s talk about the intial 3-5 years of dating. How is it that the percentage of girls still single after that period of dating is far greater than the percentage of boys
Sam I AM:
You explained the Age Gap Perfectly. I actually fail to see what you don’t understand.
If every year there are say 200 more girls ENTERING the pool of shidduchim (as per your explanation girls start earlier than guys) and thus at any given time there are far more girls in the pool than guys, we can have every guy getting married and still have tons and tons of leftoever girls. So long as there continues to be more girls entering the pool each year than guys and so long as there continutes to be more girls in the pool than guys we will continue to have this problem.
Please clarify what point you don’t grasp.
Perhpas you dind’t even understand what you meant, that because guys start later therefore ther are more girls. It is NOT becasue guys can choose from a whole bunch of years. It is far more significant. It is becaue there are simply far more 19 year old jewish people that there are 23 year old jewish people. POPULATION GROWTH.
If every year we only matched up the new dating gals and the new dating guys, there are far more new dating gals and therein lies the problem…
ARC: My idea is for commuities to do what they can to garner more attention for slightly older girls. I simply laid out a cost effective and proven model.
Here’s a question for you. If I have been promoting the the Age Gap issue and advocating on behalf of the those working hard to change that and thus alleviate the shidduch crisis (and i’m not a shadchan) why would i care to look for ways to make shadchanim money?
I’m very curious as to your thought process. Or perhpas you think my advocacy for the NASI project and perhaps the entire NASI project is a sinsiter plot to pad shadchanims bottom line.
Please clarify.
Tzippi: If you are really plotzing contact the NASI Project, I’m sure they’ll give you the info and they’ll even advise you how to bring it to your community. Each community is self run, so if you really trully care, make it happen for the girls in your community.
Yes that’s a challenge…. Blogging in the CR is easy – making a difference in peoples lives, that takes someone who really cares cares. I assume before your next post on this thread you will have contacted them on the issue
cedarhurst: What you are saying is correct. It can’t be enforced on anyone and the boys side will be the last to come on board.
I am simply laying out a model that has proved to effective on a COMMUNITY (see apy-arc)level.
Hard to argue with results.
I’m not sure what arc and apy disagree with, and i’m not sure why arc thinks i’m a duck when i am in no way shape or form even a shadchan….
For the record I made one shidduch in my life more than a decade ago and I haven’t redd a shidduch in probably 8 years. So nope, this isn’t about me trying to find a alternate source of income (in case that was your insinuation).
This is simply the most effective method to generate a tremendous amount of attention for the slightly older girls.
No More No Less
If anyone has any other ideas (that work) i’d be happy to promote them in the CR
I don’t harp on the girls or their parents, (though it is by far and away the girls and their parents who are overwhelming the shadchanim).
Ultimately it is the girls AND boys (and their parents) who should compensate whomever it is spends time and effort to get their child a date.
However, the present reality is such that the boys parents are in the drivers seat and are not ready to do it as by and large they will just have someone else redd them a shidduch. The girls (and their parents) who stand to benefit are also not so likely to do it because its a new idea.
THE COMMUNITY is the perfect place to get this set up. The places that have done is so far have been very happy with the results.
PAY to play? I think not.
Don’t be a chazer is more like it!
You benefited from someones else’s time and effort-
Show them you appreciate it!
You wouldn’t think of not compensating a plumber, electrician or anyone else providing a service, why is is so acceptable that a shadchan who got your child a quality date is treated like a piece of dirt.
APY-sorry-THAT is just plain wrong.
In fact the people most likely to show their appreciation to someone who redds their child a shidduch are the POORER people. It has something to do with a sense of entitlement. The more you think it’s coming to your child to be redd a shidduch the less likley you are to appreciate the person who puts in the effort to do so!
arc: 100% Incorrect. Not even close. In fact in the communities that have implemented it (BY CHOICE) it is NOT necessarily the families of the girls contributing. It’s whoever wants to participate and help out.
The concept IS show the people that you appreciate their time, effort and attempts and they will show your girls attention
APY:
I’m not sure what you are reffering to by union/ organization etc.
What I’m discusssing is a project in place where communities reach out to shadchanim both proffestonal as well as recently married boys and girls of their own to help get attention for their slightly older still single girls.
It works very well and I would suggest other communities/shuls/schools do the same.
Please clarify what you mean.
Tzippi: i have no idea what you are talking about. What was meant is some communities are setting it up as date #2/#4 some #1/#4 etc… whatever they feel works for them they will do. some are making different levels 21-24 and 25+ some are not.
Obviously whatever rules each community sets up those are the rules that will be in play.
It’s not just for “shadchanim”. Boys and Girls who have gotten married in the last 5-10 years from each community are the people who will really make this concept work.
TMB: Hopefully down the road people will come to realize that compnesating the shadchan is no different than and other costs of the dating process. However at the present time i don’t think people are ready for that.
bennaishek: Those details are for each communtiy to see what works best for them… the idea being that date nuber four usually means it was a better idea than if it ended after date number one, and the shadchan should be compensated as such.
bennaishek: That’s a thought, but at the present time people aren’t ready and willing to do so, therefore the idea of community/shuls doing it makes a lot of sense. in additon wehn the individual would compensate for the service they recieve we run into the problem of them perhaps not going on a third/fourth date because it doesn’t seem like such a great idea and they might as well save money.
we all know how many weddings there are that on the third/fourth date weren’t so obvious that they where going to get engaged.
I actually thought it was APY who used the term “scheme”
PBA: As with anything in life, the possiblity for abusing the opportunity may alway exist. B”H so far nothing remotely similar has happened.
Of course: Here’s a present-www.lchaimshidduch.org (if i’m not allowed to post a link) then go to the lchaim shidduch website and
go to the donate button. they have a extensive list of shadchanim that they give out for a $25 donation.
Good Luck
Legislate???
No one has to do anything. Simply put the communities shuls and schools that implement it will help their own girls.
Is there anything wrong with that?
Why is this a “scheme” (like some underhanded less than above board practice).
Gov’t approach?
I simply advised of a model that is effective in helping a communities, schools, shuls girls get dates.
I meant 100% that your comment aboutn mentchlichkeit was on target! I simpy rephrased what I though you were getting at.
If its Close-In-Age it does, albeit not necessarily significantly, because no one marriage can solve it. If we consistently have more close in age weddings, we will continue to alleviate the crisis.
Of Course: Actually the Yated has been extremely helpful in promoting issues that deal with the core issues causing the crisis i.e. Age Gap.
To clarify, shadchanim being hard to reach/not returning phone calls etc. is NOT the cause of the crisis, it is simply a naural result of the core issues.
To answer you question. I just contacted them and they informed that they paid out in the vicinty of $125,000 for roughly 125 close in age shidduchim that took place during the time the project was active and that they where informed about.
I’m not sure what that has to do with anything on this thread.
Lkwd mom:
Glad to see we are on the same page!
To answer your question I would think (based on input over the years from many shadchanim) that for the active shadchanim the money would be more appreciated for numerous reasons (the least of which is how many candy platters do they need already :).
If it’s accompined by a nice card, that would add a tremendous touch and give them alot of chizuk.
The exact amount is something only you could know. It would depend if it was a easy shidduch a difficult one, one date/eight dates. Whatever you feel is appropraite is the right amount and whatever you give them they will GREATLY appreciate.
The OP asked a personal question, what should she do for a person who took the time to give her child personal attention.
As for your question what wuuld happen if this became the norm of all people to ask and follow through on. I’ll tell you exactly what would happen.
1. Far more people would be involved in redding shidduchim
2. Far more shidduchim would be redd to the slighlty older girls, since all things being equal it is they and their families who are most likely to ask the question.
As and aside, Shadchanim note wirly that the people most likely to show appreciation to them for their time and effort exteneded are the LESS comfortable people (read people with less money).
It has something to do with the degree of a sense of entitlement that one feels. The greater the sense of entitlement the less they appreciate what the person redding their child a shidduch has done for them.
APY:
Specific details can of course be set by each community, shuls, school that implements. I simply outlined the model
The communities that have done it so far have used the follwing rules.
1. The community (or whomever was appointed to run the project) gave the money to the shadchan.
2. being that it was set up as date 2/4 if it didn’t go to 2 the shadchan didn’t get compensated. Whatever rules they set up they followed.
3. This is irrespective of shadchanus that comes from the family for completed shidduchim.
APY: feel free to implement it in your neighborhood with your ideas for improvements. Some communities might want to do it for date 1/date 4 (e.g. if they are a small out of town commuity for whose girls even getting to one date is difficult). some communities migh feel that date 4 is the same as date #2 and thus would want the higher compensation at date #8.
Clearly the specific paramaters are not set in stone. Each community, shul, school should adjust as per their specific circumstances. I have simply outlined what has been tried and tested.
Please explain your math
APY: results speak for themselves.
It’s not pay to date. It’s appreciate for what someone has done for you/your community.
To clarify: no one is banned from any dating pool, its simply giving a slight edge to the slightly older. Inevitable girls who are 21-24 and 25+ will get more dates than they would have otherise and I can’t see anyone thinking that is a bad idea!
APY:
Beautiful!
And for the myriad of shadchanim who have no set price and for whom the shadcanus for the completed shidduchim doesn’t make it worthwhile for all the time they put into the 95% that don’t get engaged, Your thoughts are perfect.
Each person should think long and hard about the following question:
Each community is taking care of their own funding and to date (no pun intended) every shadchan has been paid for what they have earned.
NASI discontinued the shadchan incentive project Tu B’shvat 5769. (almost two years ago). They paid out over $100,000 in the year plus that the project was active and that project was the primary vehicle for bringing to light the Age Gap concept.
shrag- The communities are funding it themselves.
BEST IMA So what’s the issue. Feel free not to use her. There are plenty of caterers that are also very expensive etc….. and if you feel that she might push a shidduch because of the money she stands to make, all the more reason not to use her.
I still don’t understand what this has to do with the OP question of how to properly show appreciaton to a shadchan who has set up your child.
BEST IMA:
1. That has nothing to do with the OP
2. Feel free not to use that person.
3. I cautiously deny your statement as I’ve been in contact with tens of shadchanim and have yet to come across someone with that fee from the Far Rockaway community. (across the country I know of maybe two people like that and frankly if they want to make a business out of it it’s their perogative, and anyone who doesn’t want to agree to their terms won’t use them. It would be no different than any other proffesion. I wouldn’t use them if it was my child). I’m just suprised at your tone as if they are doing something wrong by setting their fee. If they want to view it and run it like a business why are they not allowed??? Luckily for our community at large 99% of the shadchanim do not operate like business people and thus the communities benfit greatly from their dedication.
Lkwd mom:
Just want them to try again??
I thought the intention of your original question how to show them appreciation for their time,effort and thoughtfullness on behalf of your child whom they owe nothing to and put forth a great deal of energy for.
I guess I misundersood.
Here’s a secret, shadchanim are far more likely to stay in contact with you if they sense you trully appreciate their efforts, it is far more than if you attempt to “buy them”.
Tzippi: I fail to undersand you comment.
In any event I’m sure your commnunity isn’t doing it yet, becuase the places that have done it so far are not the places that have a community shadchan. They decided to go this route instead – and are very pleased they did.