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Always_Ask_Questions,
“I saw a number of people of all genders working in chinuch who are burnt out with the lifestyle.”
“Working” in chinuch is not the same thing as full time learning in kollel – they are working and getting paid for working! Burnout is not exclusive to klei kodesh.
“As a shocking illustration, one complained to me that her husband did not want to move the kid to another school for several years because they both worked in the current school and it was “free”.”
Why is that shocking? Or specifically a “kollel” or more broadly a klei kodesh issue?
“But you are right, a lot of kollel wives are nashim chayil and do not complain here (although they have their own site).”
If you’re referencing the site I think you are, it’s an even more troll-infested place than here.
“And I am not at all claiming that something is majority or typical. I am asking – whether we have mechanisms to prevent abuses, however rare they might be.”
Do we have mechanisms to prevent workaholic husbands who never see their kids? Or latchkey kids who are home alone for hours after school? Why does klei kodesh need some sort of special mechanism that other adult-run families do not? These are general domestic issues that apply to all families whether the husband learns in kollel, teaches in a yeshiva, or is a high powered lawyer. And the mechanism is good, open, and loving communication between husband and wife, and parents and children.
“I out in-laws on the list of possibly non-kosher funding for the reason that if the in-laws are not doing it fully out of their free will, there is avak geneiva here.”
How are they not doing it of their own free will? Blackmail? Threats of bodily harm? Support us in kollel for 10 years or Bruno will make you swim with the fishies?
“My understanding that majority of Bavliim would come to the yeshiva for 2 months and go work the rest of the year while reviewing the masechet on their own.”
I think that’s flipped?
I like ujm’s answer, but given that we were all at Har Sinai, my answer would be in the days of Bayis Rishon during the rule of a righteous king.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“it is not just my interpretation. It is a minority opinion, but with Rambam, RebE, and a majority opinion in Bavli on “my side” v. Rashbi and a lot of modern poskim, we should give both sides some respectful hearing. “
Can you really name any modern posek who advocates that we go by the Rashbi’s derech in learning? And are you sure that you are really on the “side” of, say R’ Yishmael and Rava? Nissan and Tishrei to plant and harvest with the other 10 months sitting and learning is a far cry from the 8-10 hour workday + commuting regimen that working today entails for many.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I think Yabia is asking what is the social background here.”
I think if that was what he was asking, he would have written it.
“If a girl is pressured into the arrangement in some way, or if she later changes her mind but is reluctant to speak out – does the husband have sensitivity to notice or the kollel a way to find out.”
It’s interesting to me how those who see women making a different life decision from the one they prefer conclude that those women must be victims of their circumstances, pressured into a horrible life. A husband and the wife are both grown adults, as are the parents/in-laws who may or may not be supporting the couple. They can decide what works for their family, they are more than capable of discussing their changing needs and situations, and it is not our business to peer into their windows and attack the foundations of their homes. I also find it interesting that the CR is not full of angry kollel wives bemoaning their fates. The agita is coming almost exclusively from those not in kollel.
“Also, anyone claiming that wife can be satisfied by illicit funds, whether taken from in-laws, unreported income, or inappropriately obtained SNAP is really adding to the abuse of the lady – she does not have to be forced to be part of such aveiros (if they happen)”
A few questions – who on here other than you is making such a claim? And how is in-law support illicit that you lump it in with these other examples?
coffee addict,
“For Yaakov Shwekey to sing “we are America” instead of we are a miracle is making politics into a religion”
I think the lyric was “we love America”. I wasn’t commenting on the correctness of the explosion of political expression over the past 5-10 years, just what I perceive to be the causes.
n0mesorah,
“Last week’s statement not to enforce gun control by executive order.”
Seems to lack context. Trump had a considerably higher rate of EO issuance than Obama and Bush, but his rate was ~55 per year, and Biden issued 77 EOs during 2021, as well as 80 memorandums. Not to mention the private sector vaccination mandate through OSHA. I don’t see this return to a respect for the Legislative Branch that has been absent for the past few administrations that you see.
“As a long time senator, Biden understands that the Senate is the place for legal reforms, declarations of war, and ratifying treaties.”
An EO would remove the perceived political benefit of obstructionist Republicans, would serve as a lightning rod for conservatives, and would face immediate and likely successful legal challenges. I’m guessing political expediency stayed his hand more than a respect for the separation of powers.
n0mesorah,
“The executive branch is fulfilling it’s role. For the first time in fifteen years”
What is the Biden Administration doing specifically to fulfill your idea of its role that neither the Trump or Obama Administrations did?
coffee addict,
“Why are people so hung up on them (the same thing can be said about sports)”
I think there’s a few things at play:
1. Non-Orthodox Jews have effectively replaced Judaism with liberal politics as their religion, and they have been loudly proclaiming this message for years. Abortion is a Jewish value! etc. This has prompted a backlash in the Torah community.
2. The NYC government has singled out the Jewish community multiple times over the past few years in a highly tone deaf and humiliating manner. Coupled with the rise in antisemitic attacks and a perceived failure to address the root cause of these attacks, the visibly Jewish community in NYC and surrounding areas feels ignored and hated by the local level Democratic party establishment.
3. Whether you loved or hated the Trump Administration, there was never such engagement with the frum community specifically at the Federal level as we saw during his presidency, and additionally Republican senators such as Ted Cruz have increasingly commented on issues affecting the frum community, which are unique from the non-Orthodox issues. Thus, Orthodox Jews are feeling seen and heard by Federal-level Republicans at the same time they are feeling ignored and marginalized by Democrats at all levels of government.Yabia Omer,
“Is this the most important issue facing Klal Yisroel in 2022?”
Oh my goodness yes.
coffee addict,
“Did chassidim say tachnun yesterday?”
We didn’t say tachanun yesterday, though after being mevarchim hachodesh we did still say Av harachamim before ashrei.
n0mesorah,
“It’s not separating from anyone … But, as outsiders”
🤔
I’m not telling anyone what to do, but why does a tefilla that takes no more than 3 minutes at mincha and 60% of weekday shacharis, and 7-10 minutes on Monday and Thursday mornings cause so much consternation? There is a palpable ripple of relief in the room when tachanun is unexpectedly skipped, like people driving up to a toll bridge and finding the tolls temporarily suspended. I’m speaking to myself as well, because I feel it too. But we’re asking Hashem to be completely at His mercy and not at the mercy of anyone else, which should cause us to feel relief.
n0mesorah,
“Is there any contemporary that you’ve read on the six mitzvos? The classics are to terse, or hard to imagine into our thinking. I want to claim, that I am not saying any chiddush at all in these foundational mitzvos. If we would start from the sources it would never end. So can you pick something for me to be in line with?”
Declaring that you’re not saying a chiddush does not punt the burden of proof onto me. Our disagreement is not with the six mitzvos themselves, but whether one can disregard those six mitzvos and even further disregard any belief in Hashem at all, and still be within the bounds of the Torah.
n0mesorah,
“And [t]o get to the superiority claim, the people that have issues with Chabad, even the gedolim, just don’t speak in the same terms as Chabad. So it makes specific questions impossible. And then Chabad says, “you just don’t understand. We know better.” It’s not a bias as much as a language barrier.”
The purpose of language is to enable sharing of complex information, so it kind of defeats the purpose to redefine words to one’s own liking and then blame others for misunderstanding. “Oh! It’s your fault I poured water on your head, because in Avram-in-MDese “please pass the potatoes” means “pour water on me”. And if you say that the terminology is consistent within Chabad itself and they know what they’re talking about, I have two responses: #1 it is wrong to separate from the rest of klal Yisroel, and #2 seemingly at least some in Chabad have also failed to adopt or understand the redefinitions, hence the meshichists and elohists.
n0mesorah,
“1. Beliefs are inconsequential at the base level of Judaism.”
You seem to be defining “base level of Judaism” as “functional within an Orthodox community”, and I do not agree that this is so.
At that point why not make something designed for dairy, like French onion soup?
TS Baum,
Thanks for your response to my questions.
“You have these people also.
In a perfect world there would be none of these extreme chareidim.”This is the “they do the same things themselves” argument I mentioned above.
“I’ll tell you straight up – at all costs possible – we don’t want to cause even more machlokes and divide in luabvitch.”
There is a lot of space between silence and excommunication that can be utilized. Also, avoiding machlokes and divide is a noble goal, but is it truthfully the most important aim to be had “at all costs”? What if people started building golden statues of the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L, and bowing down to them and offering them korbonos? That’s a ridiculous example, but as a real world example, what about the disruption the mishichists are causing to Chabad’s ability to disseminate the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s teachings to the Jewish world? Would the Lubavitcher Rebbe have wanted this kind of distraction from his life’s mission?
“One thing I can tell you is that by causing more sinas chinam and bashing them does not help.”
I disagree that criticism automatically means sinas chinam. Machlokes for the sake of Torah is certainly not. But…
“I don’t either think a YWN CR Forum will help either, I think this was made just to give the coffee room a bit more life.”
I agree with you here.
n0mesorah,
“For now, let’s continue on the other 607 mitzvos only.”
As I’ve argued before, I don’t see how this distinction can be made – a basic level of belief is a prerequisite for fulfillment of all of the mitzvos.
“Second of all, I put myself in a theological bind. In order to put my defining point into focus, I pushed it beyond any reasonable parameters. Of course any sane human has to be thinking something to be observant.”
Correct, hence my not-so-reasonable examples of an athiest observing mitzvos out of guilt, etc. It’s not sustainable at all, and only the external will be kept (and then perhaps only when others are looking), and mitzvos have both external and internal components.
“However, that may speak more to our humanness, than to spirituality. After all, do malachim ‘think’ when they observe His will?”
The Torah was made for humans – it is the blueprint of humanity, and in fact the astonishingly blunt and accurate knowledge of how humans work was what drew me who grew up non-frum into Torah more than any “age of the universe” type arguments that are popular with Aish, etc.
“My main point is this. Every Born-Observant Jew, starts of practicing before they understand any Torah system.”
I don’t really agree with this. Young children innately have an innocent and pure faith that is cute beyond words, but are also ruled completely by their yetzer hara. This is a necessary part of their development, because children need to have their needs met for survival. As we get older, we can increasingly suppress and control our yetzer hara, but our knowledge and understanding also becomes more complex, which gives the yetzer hara new areas to attack other than the stomach and the toys.
“Some people never get that there is a specific purpose to Torah. And they have a mush where others have a sense of purpose.”
And this is something to be sad about and try to change, not accept with a shrug.
“If they preach their lack of knowledge, the proper response is ‘you need to learn more’ or something similar.”
Not if they start gathering adherents to their cause.
“But if they change their practice because it is all mush anyways, then they begin to lose their bona fides. if this is true, then it follows that observance can be achieved without any real idea of the Godhead.”
Not so, only outward observance, which is incomplete, and as I’ve been arguing this whole time, not sufficient to actually be considered fulfilling the mitzvos at all. In another hopefully approved post, I pointed out that our acceptance of “Orthoprax” is more due to our inability to see inside a person and thus using the outward appearances as a proxy. But our acceptance does not a kosher Jew make. That’s up to Hashem, as it says (paraphrasing Chumash Devarim), the revealed are for us and the hidden are for Hashem to deal with.
“I contend that some people are not just uncomfortable talking about Hashem, they really do not understand what the whole conversation is about.”
Yes, someone gave us a children’s book that told the story of Passover, and while the illustrations were great, I noticed that the book did not mention Hashem at all! It made it sound like Moshe Rabbeinu was a magic man who did it all – the book could’ve been titled “Moses and his magic staff”. So I read it to my kids, changing the words to say that Hashem did all of these things, and then chucked the book into the trash after they went to bed.
To keep the mitzvos on even the basic level, one has to fully accept all the mitzvos. Now, the query of the six constant mitzvos becomes unavoidable.”
Nu?
TS Baum,
“Only by the mishichistim. that’s what you are forgetting. Again, the Rebbe was no way into Yechi, … you can’t say this as “general luabvitch”
My questions – if the mishichists have indeed corrupted Chabad concepts and gone astray, should they be rebuked or encouraged to return (as this thread’s title states)? And if so, who should do this tochacha? Because Chabad itself does not seem to be opposing them with any vigor, and you seem to get upset when non-Chabad Jews do so.
n0mesorah,
“Why Chabad does not have a track with zero kabalistic teachings, is a good question that will not get a good answer.”
That doesn’t really bother me. The backbone of Chabad is the Tanya, which, if I understand correctly (and Chabad posters please correct me if I’m mistaken), is a sefer that brings the kabbalistic secrets of Torah, which they call Chassidus, out of the realm of the esoteric to make them accessible to every Jew. So to have a “Chabad” track that ignores what makes Chabad unique doesn’t really make sense, just like a BA in art history program wouldn’t make sense in BMG.
Your later argument seems to be that mishichism/elokism/etc are simple people misunderstanding kabbalistic terminology. If so, then is it not dangerous to disseminate kabbalistic concepts to those who will likely misunderstand and go astray? Your earlier argument seemed to be that non-Lubavitchers just don’t understand the kabbalistic concepts and terminology that Chabad uses. If so, and the Tanya is kabbalah for the masses, why can’t the concepts just be explained?
n0mesorah,
“I’m not sure if this is aimed at me or the topic. Either way, I do not understand how this fits with the rest of your post.”
It was “aimed” at you – because your entire argument here effectively is to stop questioning Chabad because they can still be nominal Jews so long as they do the outward mitzvos.
“If you need a theory, there seems to be an elitist bent. With Chabad claiming a higher understanding of God’s world. And the Yeshivish (? is this accurate ?) anti Chabad claiming to know how and why Chabad is out of the Pale.”
I think also it’s the response that is given. When Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L made his psak regarding chalav stam/”companies” dairy, he received considerable opposition from some other gedolim. Rav Moshe’s response to the opposition was to point to his psak, where his Torah reasoning was extensively documented – and he asked those who opposed the psak to please bring their own Torah to refute him. No demonizing of any side, CV”S was involved. Interestingly this did not resolve the dispute – there are frum Jews who hold to this day that Rav Moshe’s psak causes Yidden to eat unkosher dairy, but the power of the Torah behind each opinion has brought a measure of peace to klal Yisroel.
By Chabad, and this is my own perception so I hope TS Baum or others can show me differently, they do not respond to opposition with extensive Torah reasoning to demonstrate why they are correct, even to get to the “agree to disagree” point as in chalav stam. They instead declare that the opposition just cannot understand these things, do the same things themselves, and if further pressed will ultimately vilify the detractors as wicked “snags” – even gedolim! I know they do not have a monopoly on the vilifying, but puk chazi who has set up a separate communal infrastructure in almost every respect and does not engage with the rest of frum Yidden.
n0mesorah,
“I’m using the ‘beliefs are irrelevant’ line, for the opposite extreme. When determining what is within the ‘norms’ of Frum Yidden, I think it is about observance. As beliefs alone does not make a Yid.”
That seems fallacious to me. Just because beliefs alone do not make a Yid does not mean that observance alone does so. Both are needed.
“So long as all the practice is being practiced, there is room for more extreme thought systems.”
We tend to accept those who are outwardly observant as “frum” and consider those who are not outwardly observant as “not yet frum” because, as human beings, we can only perceive the outside of another. Therefore, we use observance as a proxy. This is a human limitation, but you seem to be turning it into a personal philosophy. Also, Jewish history shows that we do indeed have machlokes based on thought systems rather than observance. Sometimes the new and different ideas become integrated into klal Yisroel, other times they result in groups R”L going off the derech.
n0mesorah,
“My position did not change. As long as observance is a given, it is of little consequence to the Torah way of life what theories are prominent in a given group.”
I provided my interpretations of how I understood your initial position (beliefs are irrelevant) and subsequent position (beliefs do matter – they can raise your level). If you hold that your position did not change, than one of my interpretations is incorrect. Which one is it?
My discussion with you is largely a tangent off of this thread, based on what you wrote:
“When a Yid does a mitzvah because he is a comitted Jew, that is the desired outcome of creation. This is even if the Jew has no concept of a creator or any idea of the god-head.”
My major objection to this is that having a concept of a creator and Hashem as our G-d, and rejecting idolatry are themselves mitzvos – so absent these beliefs or in the presence of idolatrous beliefs, one is not fulfilling the desired outcome of creation. I pushed back hard on this, and you then (seemed to) acknowledge that beliefs matter, but more as a “level” thing than a fundamental mitzvah. This did not answer my main objection, but I put that objection aside temporarily to ask a secondary question – if beliefs indeed affect your “level”, then is it legitimate to question or investigate beliefs whose adherents claim are the highest of the high levels? I went on that tangent because this seemed like an inconsistency in your own stance. But unless I’m misunderstanding you, we still disagree on whether a basic belief that there is One G-d Who we cannot perceive or make an image of, Who created and rules the universe, Who took us out of Egypt, and Who commanded us to do the mitzvos, is in itself a mitzvah and necessary to fulfill the other mitzvos.
“I hear the question. But it’s not for me to answer.”
Why is it not for you to answer, unless you have embraced spiritual stagnation?
“Should we tell Chabad that their teachings must be wrong, because outside of Chabad they do not preach the same? Chabad is wrong because nobody else is Chabad?”
Not sure I like how you worded it (particularly the wrong because nobody else is line), but in essence, yes. Kol Yisroel arevim ze bazeh – we are one nation, one people, and we are responsible for one another. So why can’t questions be asked and answers given, without hostility and hatred?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“two lanes narrow into one into a turn to another highway.” … What are the options? … 2) Accept suffering as punishment for other avonos
Sounds like you are describing the merge to get from I-70 eastbound to I-695 (Baltimore Beltway) heading north, in which case yes you are definitely there to atone for your aveiros.
“90% of cars organize into one lane long before the turn and move slowly for 5-15 minutes. 10% of cars speed by and then merge in right before the turn. Of course, more than 10% ends up merging in, significantly delaying the rest.”
My take: 1) Some of the people “speeding by” to merge further up are not in your good-behavior lane because your good-behavior comrades are not letting them in. So many times I have tried to merge into a slower moving lane, either to queue up as in your example or because I need to exit, and not a soul lets me in. I’ve almost taken to not even turning my blinker on, because the blinker signals these friendly people to pull up right to the bumper of the car in front of them. 2) Part of the big delay is because the beneficent souls who are in the “correct” lane care more about being vindictive towards those they perceive as being in the “wrong” lane than providing as smooth a flow of traffic as possible for those behind them. 3) Bottlenecks are not always due to human failings – vehicles cannot double their speed when the lanes halve into a dangerous curve and merge.
What are the options?
If you had your eyes in your gemara or on your cell phone, or your coffee mug like civilized drivers, you wouldn’t even notice the maleficence around you. You wouldn’t even notice the slowdowns in front of you!
“3) count how many Jews fly by”
That would be antisemitic.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Slow down, learn Mishna by heart, listen to a tape, talk to the kids in your car, call your mother, let a couple of people in front of you, drink coffee slowly…”
All great suggestions that can help reclaim commuting time as a productive part of life. I just have one thing to add – my stress behind the wheel is connected to lateness, and if I’m sitting in traffic and getting late for something, no thoughts, tapes, or conversations will alleviate my stress or turn back the clock. So to me, the most important way to cope with traffic is to accept its existence and account for it in my planning. My wife’s rule of thumb for urban driving is to double the time. If the mapping software estimates a drive will take 15 minutes, plan for it lasting 30. A 30 minute drive will actually take an hour, etc. And don’t forget to include extra time for parking and walking to the destination (extra 5 minutes if there’s a parking lot, extra 15 minutes if you have to park on a street, and even more extra time if you’re bringing kids). On many an occasion you’ll “hurry up and wait” as they say in the military, but then you can implement AAQ’s great suggestions with no stress. And if something comes up on the way, like spilling coffee on your shirt, you’ll likely have more time to deal with it without becoming truly late.
coffee addict,
“Government, if there was more lanes there would be less traffic”
More lanes may alleviate some issues, but not all, especially bottleneck situations. Just like throwing an army of utility workers into a job won’t make it go any faster if their cherry picker can only hold one person.
n0mesorah,
“Where do chazal mention that it is our obligation to tear apart Judaism by learning up people’s personal devotions?”
Deuteronomy 13 for starters.
n0mesorah,
” I’m not advocating this as the ikar. I’m saying this is the basic idea.”
Ok, so this seems like a big change from your initial stance, which ridiculed any debate about beliefs because they were irrelevant to Yiddishkeit. So now you’re holding that beliefs are relevant, but a lack of them is still within what you see as the “baseline” of normative Judaism. I vehemently disagree, but before we go on that merry-go-round again, given your new position that beliefs do matter inasmuch as they raise your level of Yiddishkeit – I don’t understand your point in this thread. Your initial argument seemed to advocate for people to leave Chabad alone, because who cares what they believe as long as they do mitzvos, as beliefs are irrelevant to Judaism, and it’s silly to quibble about beliefs since reality is beyond our comprehension anyway. Now, however, you seem to imply that beliefs can indeed raise your level. Fine. And maybe some are not ready to jump to higher levels, and pushing or berating them for it may do more harm than good. Ok, I can agree with that. But Chabad claims that their derech is the superior form of Judaism, and only through Chabad can you reach the absolute highest levels. They put this into action via missionary work, and they express considerable hostility towards Jews who disagree with their derech (the “snags”). The similarity between these attitudes and those of early Christianity is probably why there is so much consternation – Christianity after all resulted in 2000 years of torment for Jews. But to lay out my question simply: if beliefs do matter for your level, and a group claims to offer the highest level… should their claims not be checked into on behalf of those who want to climb higher?
“I doubt anyone’s commitment comes only from their awareness of Hashem. Bilam had a strong awareness of Hashem and moving else. So he was only absorbed in himself.”
I didn’t say that awareness alone was sufficient. We have mitzvos to love and fear Hashem, and a cursory reading of Chumash reveals the importance of faith in Hashem.
“A committed Jew is one that maintains his Judaism as his own identity.”
But what is Judaism if divorced from Hashem?
“The person with the personal beliefs that you outlined is rather stupid. That he still maintains all the mitzvos, is very special in the eyes of Hashem. What do you expect of such a person?”
There’s stupid and wrong, and stupid and right. Should we condemn the stupid to wrongness?
“A Jew with little insight into the divine, is limited in their spiritual growth. This is so obvious, it is almost redundant.”
On the contrary, it is so wrong, I almost don’t know where to begin. No, a simple person isn’t going to delve into esoteric kabbalistic concepts, but a simple and true faith can shake the heavens.
“A fully practicing atheist can say kiddush and kaddish for us.”
I don’t think so. If an athiest writes a perfect sefer Torah, we have to burn it. And I don’t think we can say amein to their brachos.
“I posted that piece to clarify why all of chabad is within the parameters of normative Judaism, as much as any other group. It was never intended as the ideal.”
But they claim the mantle if the ideal, hence the scrutiny.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I tried relying on them with kids and it did not really work”
I am not a fan of Google, but if you are already enmeshed in the Google ecosystem, their Family Link feature is really useful. For example, if you have a Chromebook for your child, you can:
1. Create a Google account for your child and enroll it in Family Link. You can then use the Family Link settings to completely lock down the Internet except for sites and apps that you explicitly allow.
2. On the Chromebook, sign on initially with your own account so it is the “admin” account that controls the device settings.
3. In Settings, go to “Manage other people”, turn off guest browsing (very important), and limit sign-ons to only accounts you specify (so they cannot create a new unmanaged Google account and sign in with it). Allow your child’s account to sign in, and any others you want (e.g., sibling accounts, their school accounts if they have).
4. Log in the child account, authorize the sign-in with your password, and s/he has a laptop that is locked down to your specifications.With these steps taken, I have not discovered a way to “break” the setup (so long as your child does not know your password!), but once Google thinks they are over 13, they can unenroll their account from Family Link. If they do this, you will get an email and can take whatever action you need to.
There are some pitfalls to Family Link – the white/blacklisting only works at the domain level, so you cannot allow/block specific Web pages within a domain (e.g., you cannot allow http://www.theyeshivaworld.com but then block the CR). The Debian Linux container available on newer chromebooks (crostini) cannot be used with Family Link. And it ties you and your child to Google, which harvests all of the personal information you give it for dubious uses. As children get older, they will also start to push on the boundaries set by Family Link, so you’ll have to maintain an ongoing dialog with them.
MenachemFivenbirmbaum,
“I don’t understand. Everyone talks about how social media is asur, yet tons of Frum Yidden use WhatsApp on a day to day basis.”
WhatsApp is more akin to texting than social media, though its group chats have more advanced features than SMS/MMS, and users can post a “status” (series of images) that their contacts can view and respond to. WhatsApp is a FaceBook (“Meta”) property, so if you use WhatsApp, be aware that you are interacting with FaceBook. While messages sent and received in WhatsApp are encrypted, so FaceBook cannot directly read them, they do harvest all of the metadata surrounding your messages. They can see what numbers are in your groups, which you chat with and when, and since everyone shares their contact lists with WhatsApp to see statuses, they can connect your phone number to your name many times over, as well as your contacts. And if someone you know tags you in a picture on their own FaceBook account, they also know what you look like. So even if you never touch FaceBook itself, WhatsApp reveals you to the Zuckerberg. Fun!
n0mesorah,
“God fearing key is not so accurate. Fear of God takes a Jo’s of goods work for most of us. I mean continued to keeping the mitzvtos (within the Jewish community).”
I could not decipher what you were trying to say in this sentence, can you rephrase it? Also, if you are correct, than it’s wrong to see in sefarim Jews referred to as “yirei Shamayim” or “baalei nefesh”, etc. Shouldn’t those terms be eschewed in favor of “shomrei mitzvos” only, if that’s the ikar?
“The idea necessary for mitzvos is a mitzaveh -commander. Not boray – creator. You have a big swing there between a mitzvah for it’s own sake and a good luck charm. There is a lot in between.”
People do things for a reason, and if someone has no concept of Hashem, their “committment” comes from somewhere else. Sports fandom was a silly example, but is it less silly at the end of the day than an athiest doing “mitzvos” he thinks are worthless because of communal pressure, or a pushover resentfully doing them just to please grandparents, or from Holocaust guilt, or whatever other reasons that make a “committed Jew”in your mind?
Re: your distinction between Hashem as the Borei Olam and the Ribono Shel Olam – if someone believes that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and the Xian man-god commands us to do the mitzvos… so long as he puts on tefillin every day, takes arba minim, and avoids melachos on Shabbos, he’s doing nothing wrong before Hashem in your mind and is even a “committed Jew”?
Also, you have ignored my point that one who does not know or believe in Hashem cannot fulfill any of the mitzvos properly, especially ones that deal directly with how we are supposed to feel and know about Hashem, such as loving Hashem, fearing Hashem, remembering the Exodus, etc.
n0mesorah,
“Instead of fighting about what is proper belief like a bunch of simpletons, we would do better to discuss the benefits of an unshakable conviction in the ultimate divine powers.”
So your fight is not with me, it’s with Yaakov Avinu. When he and Lavan made a treaty, Lavan invoked the (plural) G-d of Avraham and god of Nachor, but Yaakov would only swear upon the Dread of Yitzchak. Things were tense, Lavan practically brought an army with him to assault Yaakov. Why on earth did Yaakov jeopardize this tentative peace treaty with his powerful relative by kvetching about the details of Who’s upstairs? And, surprisingly if beliefs are not so important, we learned at the seder a few weeks ago that chazal felt this simpleton belief quibble was a matter of great importance, saying that Lavan tried to destroy all of klal Yisroel with his little statement.
n0mesorah,
“On yidishkeit. When a Yid does a mitzvah because he is a comitted Jew, that is the desired outcome of creation. This is even if the Jew has no concept of a creator or any idea of the god-head. Just the act itself, is included in ‘boruch asher yakum es divrei hatorah hazos’.”
Define “committed Jew”. You may have an unusual personal definition of this, but the vast majority of the frum world would say the term is synonymous with “G-d fearing Jew”, and the attention to the details of mitzvos flows forth from this fear and love of G-d.
If one has no concept of his Creator, how would he fulfill Anochi Hashem Elokecha asher hotzeitzicha meieretz Mitzrayim? Or Veahavta es Hashem Elokecha? Or es Hashem Elokecha tira? Keriyas Shema? Tefillah? The seder? Brachos? Sukkah and tefillin, for which specific reasons are given?
You are divorcing the mitzvos from their very essence and purpose, which is to serve Hashem (including the mind and heart!), and while bedieved one fulfills a mitzvah even if he didn’t have specific kavannah for it according to some opinions, like showing up to shacharis half asleep and waking up to figure out which yom it was to say “hayom yom chamishi”, that is only because he has a concept that what he did was a mitzvah (i.e., that there is a Creator, G-d, King of the Universe who commanded him to do such). Without that knowledge and belief, how can what he did be considered a mitzvah at all, or even more, the desired outcome of creation?? If a guy blows a shofar on Rosh Hashana because he thinks it’s a good luck charm to help the Mets make the playoffs, did he fulfill the mitzvah of shofar?
n0mesorah,
“I really think that fighting over proper belief is simple minded. Do you disagree?”
I sense a bit of Jonathan Swift in your responses. So yes, who cares on which side we open our eggs. However, if not for a belief in Hashem, that He created the world and that He is actively guiding the world and sees us and what we do, why do the mitzvos at all? I have non-frum relatives who R”L do not believe that the mitzvos are important. And I can’t let them cook unsupervised in my kitchen. Not because they don’t respect the mitzvos for my sake. On the contrary, they are very respectful, they check hechsherim, they ask which are milchig and which are fleishig keilim, etc. So why not? Because kashrus accidents invariably occur, and because I believe in Hashem and that the mitzvos are actually vitally important, I want to know about the kashrus accident, even if it means a big inconvenience, loss of the food, or even losing the keilim. But my relatives don’t think that kashrus is such a big deal, and being nice, don’t want to cause me “unnecessary” stress or inconvenience. After all, the Torah says not to distress other people, right? So they will likely not mention the accident at all. No harm, no foul.
Kuvult,
“You bought into the lie that anyone that’s not Frum lives an empty life full of sin. Do you think a Secular boy is interested in discussing gender instead of sports or dinosaurs or playing cops and robbers (or as your kids play “Talmidei Chachomim and Apikorsim”)?”
Lol, you castigate avira for crudely stereotyping of secular Jews and non-Jews, but then turn around and crudely stereotype frum Jews.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Sephardim seem to have more united communities, with many masorti people who feel like part of am yisrael even if not always observant or learned.”
Admittedly I don’t have a large amount of experience with Sefardic communities. In my neighborhood, the Sefardim are overwhelmingly Israeli and speak Hebrew as a first language. And I notice that the native Hebrew speaking Ashkenazim also have a good camaraderie with the Hebrew speaking Sefardim. So it’s possible that a common Israeli language and culture in the midst of a foreign country help with the camaraderie we see, whereas many Ashkenazic families have been in the US for several generations now, struggling against or succumbing to assimilation. Feel free to prove me wrong – I’m just thinking “aloud” here.
“Possibly, we suffer the post-haskala shock that we probably need to get over already. Number of reformim, socialists, OO is not that high any more, most non-observant Jews are ignorami rather than apikoiri.”
Ignorance of Yiddishkeit doesn’t mean ignorance of other “isms” as well. I think the perception that their numbers or influence is going down is more due to our being increasingly sundered from them than an actual reduction. When I was growing up, many non-Orthodox Jews (myself included) knew grandparents or great-grandparents who were frum, and had good memories of seders, or Shabbos dinners, despite feeling rather lost and confused. Nowadays for many secular Jews, there is R”L absolutely no connection to Torah Judaism whatsoever. Judaism is defined as the Democratic party platform and appropriating the Passover story for social justice causes.
Kuvult,
“I’m not sure where the argument even is. In my OP I said … I learned the correct Derech is to place people into different groups based on certain criteria.”
The argument is because we sensed your sarcasm loud and clear. And you didn’t say certain criteria, you said petty little factors.
“The bigger question is why do you all at some level feel uncomfortable with it that you feel the need to justify or defend it?”
Reduction fallacy. There may be more reasons people are responding than discomfort.
n0mesorah,
“It permits to smoke and drink. “
This is a highly misleading statement.
n0mesorah,
“Hashkafah is how we integrate the dichotomy between our Torah lives and everything else that surrounds us. Those who surround themselves with only Torah have no need for hashkafah.
This is an extremely narrow redefinition of hashkafah.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“On a personal level, if someone lost friends due to being more observant, it is also a reflection on someone’s level of observance. A true Torah scholar should cause positive emotions among at least some of their friends at least according to beis Hillel”
I agree with a few caveats:
1. A change in derech usually causes a change in focus or priorities, which may result in some friendships gradually drifting apart and other friendships becoming closer, or new friendships developing. This is a normal part of life.
2. Much of this conversation is centered on children – and children are not socially mature creatures yet. Yes we need to provide chinuch and guide them to become respectful, sensitive adults, but it’s a process.
Kuvult,
A few of my thoughts.
1. The parents today who you are having a problem with are your classmates and peers who now have their own children. Assuming you’re right that there was some sort of massive genrational shift in behavior, is it possible that your peers may have had different opinions and experiences than you did growing up?
2. What you describe as your childhood is still very much the way things are in smaller OOT communities, where there simply isn’t sufficient infrastructure to provide services tailored to each family’s derech. Maybe an OOT locale or lifestyle would be right for you and your family?
3. You seem very bothered by the perceived rejection and separation, but you also seem unaware of how bitter and hateful some of your statements directed towards the “others” in your community is coming across. Several people have tried to explain the concerns at play with respect to intrusion of an exponentially increasingly toxic secular culture into their home life, but you consistently revert to an insistence that it’s all about “petty little things” like hats and kippas. Do you hold up your end of the bargain, being very friendly to Jews who wear black hats and think the internet is evil, smiling at them, greeting them, and respecting their differences (such as not eating Triangle-K) even if it means their kid is not going to eat lunch at your house?
4. I agree with you that it is vital for parents to instill the family derech into their kids, but unfortunately even in the frum world a kid’s (especially teens) peers tend to have an outsized influence on his/her physical, emotional, and spiritual well being. If your child’s friends all have smartphones with unfiltered internet access and your child does not, and their conversations all revolve around the latest and greatest movie that your child has not seen, and most of their socializing happens on some app that your child does not have, your child may absolutely love his/her derech intellectually, and yet still feel miserable and conflicted emotionally, and feel drawn towards the technology and media that you feel is harmful with a mixture of curiosity, guilt, and resentment towards both their friends and their parents.
When I was 8 or 9, I came across my preschool “yearbook”, which had a section where they wrote down something each kid had said about their parents. One kid had said “my father is 10, and my mother is 5.” That boggled my mind, and the only conclusion I could come up with is that both parents had been born in leap years on Feb 29th and only counted their birthdays every 4 years, making the father actually 40, and the mother actually 20. I never stopped to consider that preschoolers don’t understand long time periods, and that the preschool teacher may have put that in the yearbook because it was cute, not because it was true.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Imagine, melech Shlomo is coming to your house and you proudly serve him a bishul yisroel tuna sandwich. He might just turn around and decamp to the nearby house that serves a halav stam cake”
Fish and bread are more prominent meal foods than cake. If you invite me to your house for lunch and serve me a tuna sandwich, great. If you serve me cake, I’d still be grateful of course but I’d think our definitions of what constitutes lunch are different.