Avram in MD

Reb Eliezer,

“According to Newton and Ptolemy’s view as every heavenly body has a gravitational pull based on its size, so why does not the enormous gravitational pull of the sun dislodge the earth from being stationary in the center?”

If we choose our position on Earth to be a stationary frame of reference, which is a valid thing to do, then the sun is not stationary within that frame of reference. However, when constructing Newton’s Laws using Earth as a stationary frame of reference, we find some interesting forces that we must account for, such as a Coriolis Force that increases with latitude, centrifugal force, etc. These “fictitious” forces are why many people whine about Earth not being a true stationary frame of reference. A stationary Earth surface is useful for terrestrial-based calculations, such as weather models, flight paths, etc. But when launching a rocket to the Moon or Mars, or tracking asteriods and comets, it might be more useful to pick a different frame of reference.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“Rw, for America specifically pacific current la Nina and oto haish determine a pattern of earm and cold for a year…”

El Nino and La Nina are not currents.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“not from the point of view of taxpayers”

Who cares what the taxpayers think? I want to know what you think.

“other than classes accredited academically and qualifying for educational subsidies. Maybe, if we behave in a way that Americans see the value of learning and write it in the law and regulations, then it will be great.”

Ah, but they do. There are yeshivos and kollelim that offer academically accredited degrees such as BTL or BTS, and even graduate degrees. Semicha (religious ordination) is also a generally recognized accomplishment in the U.S. that can lead to employment as a clergyman. So if a yungerman was accruing these degrees or working towards semicha while sitting and learning, would that check your productivity boxes?

“Say, one who gets unemployment/welfare can either be learning a profession, search for work, or learn Torah.”

The median income for a 25-29 year old who is the proud and productive recipient of a bachelors degree majoring in humanities or liberal arts is just north of $40,000. The poverty line reaches that income with a household of 7 people, 5 of them being dependent children. So the question you should be asking your taxpayer friends is if it is valuable to the United States for people to get married and have children, and raise them in a culture that produces peaceful, extremely low crime communities with vibrant businesses and lots of travel.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“If communal norm is to, say, rely on welfare to support learning;”

So I got married right after getting by BS from a university, and we started having children while I was in grad school. We relied on some government programs such as Medicaid, and my parents and in-laws helped us a lot to make ends meet. My wife received some government grants to help her complete her bachelors degree. After grad school I landed a job, but based on our income and family size we qualified for housing assistance, and lived for a while in a rent-reduced apartment. When we purchased a house, we utilized a large interest free loan via a Federal homebuying program to help us scrape enough together for the minimum down payment. Now B”H we aren’t relying on any government “welfare” programs, but due to our family size, KA”H I don’t end up owing much in Federal income taxes, yet I still drive on Interstate highways, rely on the USDA for my food’s quality, and so far have not had foreign armies raiding my street. And I feel no guilt for any of it. Am I a bad person?

“or to refuse transparency by suggesting “trust us”, it is worth questioning those.”

This seems to be you taking a bad personal experience and projecting it onto an entire group of people.

crazy horse,

“My point is Neo orthodoxy is not necessarily a bad thing, but I think it’s important to recognize it’s existence.”

I don’t think it’s a bad thing either. And from my perspective, there’s nothing “neo” about it; it’s just Orthodoxy, or rather, our desire to serve Hashem the best we can. People are taking on more chumros because they are increasingly able to. Rabbeinu Tam tefillin more are easily available to get. An increase in availability and variety of cholov Yisroel products makes it easier to keep. Etc.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“I may sound like a partisan to you as I am addressing several specific points where I think community is going in a wrong direction”

Partisan is too mild a word. When your “specific points” are exclusively directed at a community that you are not a part of, and are not based on reason or personal experience, or any limited personal experience is processed in a biased way to amplify the negative and negate the positive, that is not partisanship, that is prejudice.

“I was making some specific suggestions in the middle of stereotyping.”

Specific suggestions that ignore communal needs, values, mores, and culture are meaningless. You’ll make more headway telling the public schools you adore that they need more God and prayer in their classrooms.

“It is, in fact, the right approach when you hear tochacha that feels very unfair – any tochacha is valuable, so search even an unfair one for possibly something relevant.”

That may be if the tochacha was directed at me, but I am not in kollel. My goal in this conversation is וחי אחיך עמך

Always_Ask_Questions,

“Avram, a good point on yetzer hara, but I am not sure why the lame excuse “we are not perfect”.”

Where have I made any excuses? Jews are not perfect – Bilaam saw that too, but was Hashem happy with what he did? I know you feel that you are giving tochacha and not trying to curse, but your tochacha is unspecific, based on negative stereotypes, and sounds like it was lifted off the pages of the Xian bible’s rants against Pharisees. Listen to the feedback you are receiving, think about what is motivating you.

“Our community has no problem on taking on various chumros”

It seems like you do have a problem with it.

“but suddenly in the matters of lifestyle and integrity, we are looking for kulos.”

Are we? Have you conducted a poll?

Always_Ask_Questions,

“When someone is burnt out by being a merchant or a doctor, he can still work to provide parnosa to the family and, hopefully, does quality job selling or x-raying.”

Why would a teacher be any different than this?

“If he is failing, there are systems in place – competition, management that will push him out.”

Why is teaching any different? Parents and the school’s menahel can notice issues and take corrective actions.

“When you are learning or teaching (and I lumped in teaching as it is _sometimes_ a consequence of learning and not having other job prospects)”

Why do you devalue learning and teaching? Do you not think it is a worthwhile or important?

“That a learnt couple of teachers can not get their own kid out of bad situation… other people are not in the position where they are tied to a school job (evek avdut?).”

So if we were talking about a family struggling with the idea of taking their kids out of public school to put them into a frum school (very real issue on the “fringes” of the frum velt), would you not describe it as a problem with the family’s priorities? Yet wrt the teacher family struggling with the idea of taking their kids out of a poor situation to pay higher tuitions and put them into a better frum school, you frame it as a systematic issue with Torah learners instead of an issue with this specific family’s priorities? This does not seem to be fair or reasonable.

“yes, it is called a wife.”

Do kollel men or Torah teachers not have wives?

“Someone without an occupation and with peer pressure has harder time to change his ways.”

This is a cop-out. A mature adult realizes that it is his relationship with Hashem, his life, and his family that he needs to concern himself with. It’s not Torah’s fault if someone hits 40 and has never outgrown a high school mentality.

“They may have signed up out of free will, or out of community pressure. They may think it is time to change, but expectations are set and alternatives are scarce.”

See my previous comment.

I like ujm’s answer, but given that we were all at Har Sinai, my answer would be in the days of Bayis Rishon during the rule of a righteous king.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“I think Yabia is asking what is the social background here.”

I think if that was what he was asking, he would have written it.

“If a girl is pressured into the arrangement in some way, or if she later changes her mind but is reluctant to speak out – does the husband have sensitivity to notice or the kollel a way to find out.”

It’s interesting to me how those who see women making a different life decision from the one they prefer conclude that those women must be victims of their circumstances, pressured into a horrible life. A husband and the wife are both grown adults, as are the parents/in-laws who may or may not be supporting the couple. They can decide what works for their family, they are more than capable of discussing their changing needs and situations, and it is not our business to peer into their windows and attack the foundations of their homes. I also find it interesting that the CR is not full of angry kollel wives bemoaning their fates. The agita is coming almost exclusively from those not in kollel.

“Also, anyone claiming that wife can be satisfied by illicit funds, whether taken from in-laws, unreported income, or inappropriately obtained SNAP is really adding to the abuse of the lady – she does not have to be forced to be part of such aveiros (if they happen)”

A few questions – who on here other than you is making such a claim? And how is in-law support illicit that you lump it in with these other examples?

n0mesorah,

“Last week’s statement not to enforce gun control by executive order.”

Seems to lack context. Trump had a considerably higher rate of EO issuance than Obama and Bush, but his rate was ~55 per year, and Biden issued 77 EOs during 2021, as well as 80 memorandums. Not to mention the private sector vaccination mandate through OSHA. I don’t see this return to a respect for the Legislative Branch that has been absent for the past few administrations that you see.

“As a long time senator, Biden understands that the Senate is the place for legal reforms, declarations of war, and ratifying treaties.”

An EO would remove the perceived political benefit of obstructionist Republicans, would serve as a lightning rod for conservatives, and would face immediate and likely successful legal challenges. I’m guessing political expediency stayed his hand more than a respect for the separation of powers.

coffee addict,

“Why are people so hung up on them (the same thing can be said about sports)”

I think there’s a few things at play:
1. Non-Orthodox Jews have effectively replaced Judaism with liberal politics as their religion, and they have been loudly proclaiming this message for years. Abortion is a Jewish value! etc. This has prompted a backlash in the Torah community.
2. The NYC government has singled out the Jewish community multiple times over the past few years in a highly tone deaf and humiliating manner. Coupled with the rise in antisemitic attacks and a perceived failure to address the root cause of these attacks, the visibly Jewish community in NYC and surrounding areas feels ignored and hated by the local level Democratic party establishment.
3. Whether you loved or hated the Trump Administration, there was never such engagement with the frum community specifically at the Federal level as we saw during his presidency, and additionally Republican senators such as Ted Cruz have increasingly commented on issues affecting the frum community, which are unique from the non-Orthodox issues. Thus, Orthodox Jews are feeling seen and heard by Federal-level Republicans at the same time they are feeling ignored and marginalized by Democrats at all levels of government.

Yabia Omer,

“Is this the most important issue facing Klal Yisroel in 2022?”

Oh my goodness yes.

n0mesorah,

“It’s not separating from anyone … But, as outsiders”

🤔

n0mesorah,

“Is there any contemporary that you’ve read on the six mitzvos? The classics are to terse, or hard to imagine into our thinking. I want to claim, that I am not saying any chiddush at all in these foundational mitzvos. If we would start from the sources it would never end. So can you pick something for me to be in line with?”

Declaring that you’re not saying a chiddush does not punt the burden of proof onto me. Our disagreement is not with the six mitzvos themselves, but whether one can disregard those six mitzvos and even further disregard any belief in Hashem at all, and still be within the bounds of the Torah.

n0mesorah,

“1. Beliefs are inconsequential at the base level of Judaism.”

You seem to be defining “base level of Judaism” as “functional within an Orthodox community”, and I do not agree that this is so.

TS Baum,

Thanks for your response to my questions.

“You have these people also.
In a perfect world there would be none of these extreme chareidim.”

This is the “they do the same things themselves” argument I mentioned above.

“I’ll tell you straight up – at all costs possible – we don’t want to cause even more machlokes and divide in luabvitch.”

There is a lot of space between silence and excommunication that can be utilized. Also, avoiding machlokes and divide is a noble goal, but is it truthfully the most important aim to be had “at all costs”? What if people started building golden statues of the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L, and bowing down to them and offering them korbonos? That’s a ridiculous example, but as a real world example, what about the disruption the mishichists are causing to Chabad’s ability to disseminate the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s teachings to the Jewish world? Would the Lubavitcher Rebbe have wanted this kind of distraction from his life’s mission?

“One thing I can tell you is that by causing more sinas chinam and bashing them does not help.”

I disagree that criticism automatically means sinas chinam. Machlokes for the sake of Torah is certainly not. But…

“I don’t either think a YWN CR Forum will help either, I think this was made just to give the coffee room a bit more life.”

I agree with you here.

TS Baum,

“Only by the mishichistim. that’s what you are forgetting. Again, the Rebbe was no way into Yechi, … you can’t say this as “general luabvitch”

My questions – if the mishichists have indeed corrupted Chabad concepts and gone astray, should they be rebuked or encouraged to return (as this thread’s title states)? And if so, who should do this tochacha? Because Chabad itself does not seem to be opposing them with any vigor, and you seem to get upset when non-Chabad Jews do so.

n0mesorah,

“I’m not sure if this is aimed at me or the topic. Either way, I do not understand how this fits with the rest of your post.”

It was “aimed” at you – because your entire argument here effectively is to stop questioning Chabad because they can still be nominal Jews so long as they do the outward mitzvos.

“If you need a theory, there seems to be an elitist bent. With Chabad claiming a higher understanding of God’s world. And the Yeshivish (? is this accurate ?) anti Chabad claiming to know how and why Chabad is out of the Pale.”

I think also it’s the response that is given. When Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L made his psak regarding chalav stam/”companies” dairy, he received considerable opposition from some other gedolim. Rav Moshe’s response to the opposition was to point to his psak, where his Torah reasoning was extensively documented – and he asked those who opposed the psak to please bring their own Torah to refute him. No demonizing of any side, CV”S was involved. Interestingly this did not resolve the dispute – there are frum Jews who hold to this day that Rav Moshe’s psak causes Yidden to eat unkosher dairy, but the power of the Torah behind each opinion has brought a measure of peace to klal Yisroel.

By Chabad, and this is my own perception so I hope TS Baum or others can show me differently, they do not respond to opposition with extensive Torah reasoning to demonstrate why they are correct, even to get to the “agree to disagree” point as in chalav stam. They instead declare that the opposition just cannot understand these things, do the same things themselves, and if further pressed will ultimately vilify the detractors as wicked “snags” – even gedolim! I know they do not have a monopoly on the vilifying, but puk chazi who has set up a separate communal infrastructure in almost every respect and does not engage with the rest of frum Yidden.

n0mesorah,

“My position did not change. As long as observance is a given, it is of little consequence to the Torah way of life what theories are prominent in a given group.”

I provided my interpretations of how I understood your initial position (beliefs are irrelevant) and subsequent position (beliefs do matter – they can raise your level). If you hold that your position did not change, than one of my interpretations is incorrect. Which one is it?

My discussion with you is largely a tangent off of this thread, based on what you wrote:

“When a Yid does a mitzvah because he is a comitted Jew, that is the desired outcome of creation. This is even if the Jew has no concept of a creator or any idea of the god-head.”

My major objection to this is that having a concept of a creator and Hashem as our G-d, and rejecting idolatry are themselves mitzvos – so absent these beliefs or in the presence of idolatrous beliefs, one is not fulfilling the desired outcome of creation. I pushed back hard on this, and you then (seemed to) acknowledge that beliefs matter, but more as a “level” thing than a fundamental mitzvah. This did not answer my main objection, but I put that objection aside temporarily to ask a secondary question – if beliefs indeed affect your “level”, then is it legitimate to question or investigate beliefs whose adherents claim are the highest of the high levels? I went on that tangent because this seemed like an inconsistency in your own stance. But unless I’m misunderstanding you, we still disagree on whether a basic belief that there is One G-d Who we cannot perceive or make an image of, Who created and rules the universe, Who took us out of Egypt, and Who commanded us to do the mitzvos, is in itself a mitzvah and necessary to fulfill the other mitzvos.

“I hear the question. But it’s not for me to answer.”

Why is it not for you to answer, unless you have embraced spiritual stagnation?

“Should we tell Chabad that their teachings must be wrong, because outside of Chabad they do not preach the same? Chabad is wrong because nobody else is Chabad?”

Not sure I like how you worded it (particularly the wrong because nobody else is line), but in essence, yes. Kol Yisroel arevim ze bazeh – we are one nation, one people, and we are responsible for one another. So why can’t questions be asked and answers given, without hostility and hatred?

Always_Ask_Questions,

“Slow down, learn Mishna by heart, listen to a tape, talk to the kids in your car, call your mother, let a couple of people in front of you, drink coffee slowly…”

All great suggestions that can help reclaim commuting time as a productive part of life. I just have one thing to add – my stress behind the wheel is connected to lateness, and if I’m sitting in traffic and getting late for something, no thoughts, tapes, or conversations will alleviate my stress or turn back the clock. So to me, the most important way to cope with traffic is to accept its existence and account for it in my planning. My wife’s rule of thumb for urban driving is to double the time. If the mapping software estimates a drive will take 15 minutes, plan for it lasting 30. A 30 minute drive will actually take an hour, etc. And don’t forget to include extra time for parking and walking to the destination (extra 5 minutes if there’s a parking lot, extra 15 minutes if you have to park on a street, and even more extra time if you’re bringing kids). On many an occasion you’ll “hurry up and wait” as they say in the military, but then you can implement AAQ’s great suggestions with no stress. And if something comes up on the way, like spilling coffee on your shirt, you’ll likely have more time to deal with it without becoming truly late.

n0mesorah,

“Where do chazal mention that it is our obligation to tear apart Judaism by learning up people’s personal devotions?”

Deuteronomy 13 for starters.