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Gadolhadorah,
“Your reading of my post was that the Tana in the Mishna “made up” the 18 yo age for kiddushin w/o any basis.”
I mean “made up” based on his own personal observations, opinions, and conclusions, as opposed to a mesorah he received.
“There had to be some rationale for 18yo (versus 17 yo or 19 yo)……it is an age level where he believed that a young man was READY to assume the responsibilities for marriage and presumably, his conclusion was informed by his own experience based on what he knew at the time.”
This is exactly what I mean when I said you hold the tanna (Yehuda ben Teima) made it up based on his own observations of his own time. Which, though he was a wise rabbi, we can disregard to our detriment, CV”S, because “times have changed.” No, in Pirkei Avos and the rest of the Mishna, the tannaim are passing down the mesorah that they received from their teachers. To reduce this to empiricism is devastating, because it closes the door to proper understanding of the Torah and cuts us off from the chain that links us to Har Sinai.
Also, the very next line in the mishna disproves your assertion that the main should already have his parnassa before marriage and children – as it says the pursuit (of parnassa) is at age 20, two years after the age of marriage.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Avram above defends applying Pirkei Avos literally to current social situation.”
I said nothing about taking it literally or not. GH manufactured a reason for the statement, and used it to place a limit on who can marry. That is what I objected to.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Gemora is full of social and psychological insights that guide their decisions and it is not such a big leap that some respectful adjustments need to happen.”
Big difference between understanding applied psak and Torah values as passed down from the gemara through the rishonim, acharonim, etc. and making up some interpretation that fits your own beliefs and then changing the Torah to conform.
CTLAWYER,
“The cost of loaning the money at no interest for home purchases was far less than the cost of an apartment in Israel.”
Over the lifetime of a typical mortgage loan, homeowners typically pay out $100,000-$200,000 in interest, and much of the interest is paid early in the life of the loan, which slows building the equity that can be used to sell and “upsize.” For this reason it doesn’t normally make sense to finance a home and then sell it in 5-7 years unless the property value skyrockets. So to provide an interest free loan to your kids to purchase a home is big-league support.
“our children put down 25% down payments that came from their earnings. All paid off the loans within 5-7 years.”
That CTLaw firm must pay quite well. They’re lucky the firm took special notice of them and offered them jobs.
“Why did MRS. CTL and I work so hard for our adult lives if not for our family?”
Kol hakavod! I think what you are doing is absolutely wonderful. I just don’t understand why you’re looking down at other families who are also helping support their children.
“I stayed in my sister’s in Massachusetts 2 nights a week when I was in law school, big deal.”
It is a big deal, and I hope you showed hakaras hatov to your sister.
“MY point is that unless able to earn a living a couple has no business getting married.”
And my point is that that not only is that viewpoint the antithesis of Torah Judaism, it is cruel, because it makes marriage the privilege of the elite. And it surprises me that it’s three Democrats – the party that supposedly cares about the poor – who have chimed in with this position.
“those coming to minyanim to schnor wedding funds, I find it unacceptable.”
Well, the Torah is not based on what you personally find to be unacceptable, or what commonsaychel finds to be humiliating. We have a mitzvah to be misameach a chosson and kallah and to provide for their wedding. In fact, the gemara tells us that those who do so earn reward in this world without decreasing their reward in olam haba. So those “schnorrers” who are coming into your shul are bathing in diamonds, and tossing some on the tables and selling them to you for that wrinkled dollar in your pocket.
I’m a Justice of the Peace, I’d marry them for nothing in my office, enough frum Yidden there to make a minyan and I’ll break out a bottle of scnhaaps and kichel afterwards.
If that will bring the chosson and kallah joy, go for it!
“Weddings are overblown and overpriced.”
\
On this we agree.Gadolhadorah,
“The mishna in Pirkei Avos sets forth … which is generally understood to mean … [a]t the time of the mishna, its quite possible that those criteria were frequently met by many bochurim”
This reasoning – making up a reason for a mishna or halacha, declaring that that reason no longer applies today, and thus throwing out the mishna or halacha, is a hallmark of the Conservative and Reform movements’ justifications for changing or rejecting Torah precepts, R”L. Like when a guy lectured me that the Torah says not to kindle lights on Shabbos because that was a really hard thing to do back in the old days, and that work primarily fell on the women, and therefore to make sure that women could also rest on Shabbos, no kindling lights. And of course now that kindling lights is easy we don’t need to worry about it so much anymore… Not only did he get the halacha and hashkafa wrong, he got the history wrong as well.
“or presumably, that was the Tana’s recollection of when HE felt prepared for marriage”
Do you think the Tannaim just made up their Torah as they went along, CV”S?
“Nowhere does the mishna make shidduchim contingent upon a W-2 showing sufficient earning to support his wife and family”
So why are you trying to limit young marriage to something only the rich can do?
CTLAWYER,
“We paid all the wedding expenses for our daughters … We paid for orchestra, liquor, personal flowers and officiant … Three started married lives in apartments we owned … many work in the CTL Law firm … Our first tow married grandchildren are living in apartments we own as they finish graduate schools … finance the home purchase so the children did not have to pay interest on a bank mortgage”
But at least you didn’t outright buy them houses, so they can experience what true grit and self-reliance are! B”H you have the means to support your children and grandchildren. Your financial support of them far exceeds these parents who are getting newlyweds apartments, so maybe the negative judgement is unwarranted.
“perhaps you should think about deferring kiddushin”
“if the couple doesn’t have the education and means to support themselves they have no business getting married”
“if they cannot support themselves prior to marriage why even marry?”
It’s very interesting how different the values systems are among some of the posters here.
Did Adam harishon have a navel?
Gadolhadorah,
“consider the shaliach tzibur whose chazanus is a legend in his own mind (and few others)…..when he walks off the bimah following his spectacular rendition of adon o’lam using a nigun no one seems to have ever heard before”
A chazzan doing a spectacular adon olam from the bimah? The only place I’ve seen that is in a conservative or reform service, bookending with the heilige “bim bam bim bim bim bam Shabbat Shalom” song and all of its associated hand motions. Given that these places typically have a hired professional cantor who leads the services, if it’s that bad, maybe talk to the board.
Menachem Shmei,
“scientists themselves acknowledge that it is impossible for them to prove one way or the other (according to Einstein’s theory of relativity)”
I don’t think the issue is that they cannot prove one or the other – but rather either can be chosen as a valid frame of reference. Also, you and ujm are bringing in Einstein, but this form of relativity is older and applicable in Newtonian physics. Einstein’s special relativity showed that our observations of time and mass are also dependent on the frame of reference, and general relativity addresses gravity.
Reb Eliezer,
“According to Newton and Ptolemy’s view as every heavenly body has a gravitational pull based on its size, so why does not the enormous gravitational pull of the sun dislodge the earth from being stationary in the center?”
If we choose our position on Earth to be a stationary frame of reference, which is a valid thing to do, then the sun is not stationary within that frame of reference. However, when constructing Newton’s Laws using Earth as a stationary frame of reference, we find some interesting forces that we must account for, such as a Coriolis Force that increases with latitude, centrifugal force, etc. These “fictitious” forces are why many people whine about Earth not being a true stationary frame of reference. A stationary Earth surface is useful for terrestrial-based calculations, such as weather models, flight paths, etc. But when launching a rocket to the Moon or Mars, or tracking asteriods and comets, it might be more useful to pick a different frame of reference.
Menachem Shmei,
“Now, if there would be definite scientific proof that the earth revolves around the sun, we might have a problem. However, any modern day scientist agrees that there is no way to prove which is the correct way.”
What would you consider to be “definite scientific proof”?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Rw, for America specifically pacific current la Nina and oto haish determine a pattern of earm and cold for a year…”
El Nino and La Nina are not currents.
Balabus,
“why is leaving yeshivah frowned upon.”
It is up to each person to assess how he can best serve Hashem and work towards that goal. This does include financial considerations, a desire to utilize talents to serve or create things for people, etc. My guess on the frowning is that…
“the yeshivah system is just not for him”
is a cop-out type of reason showing that serving Hashem is likely not at the center of the man’s motivation.
“i think moshiach will come when the world can finally grow up and not judge/look down at other people because they left yeshiva.”
So this puts the OP squarely into troll territory, but I answered seriously because the subsequent discussion was serious.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“not from the point of view of taxpayers”
Who cares what the taxpayers think? I want to know what you think.
“other than classes accredited academically and qualifying for educational subsidies. Maybe, if we behave in a way that Americans see the value of learning and write it in the law and regulations, then it will be great.”
Ah, but they do. There are yeshivos and kollelim that offer academically accredited degrees such as BTL or BTS, and even graduate degrees. Semicha (religious ordination) is also a generally recognized accomplishment in the U.S. that can lead to employment as a clergyman. So if a yungerman was accruing these degrees or working towards semicha while sitting and learning, would that check your productivity boxes?
“Say, one who gets unemployment/welfare can either be learning a profession, search for work, or learn Torah.”
The median income for a 25-29 year old who is the proud and productive recipient of a bachelors degree majoring in humanities or liberal arts is just north of $40,000. The poverty line reaches that income with a household of 7 people, 5 of them being dependent children. So the question you should be asking your taxpayer friends is if it is valuable to the United States for people to get married and have children, and raise them in a culture that produces peaceful, extremely low crime communities with vibrant businesses and lots of travel.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“your productive lifestyle using available government program as part of it”
Is full time Torah learning not a productive lifestyle?
“I can say that none of the Talmidei Chachamim that I consulted about these issues, tried to correct my misunderstandings and mostly commiserated.”
Are you talking about kollel learners or Covid restrictions here?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“If communal norm is to, say, rely on welfare to support learning;”
So I got married right after getting by BS from a university, and we started having children while I was in grad school. We relied on some government programs such as Medicaid, and my parents and in-laws helped us a lot to make ends meet. My wife received some government grants to help her complete her bachelors degree. After grad school I landed a job, but based on our income and family size we qualified for housing assistance, and lived for a while in a rent-reduced apartment. When we purchased a house, we utilized a large interest free loan via a Federal homebuying program to help us scrape enough together for the minimum down payment. Now B”H we aren’t relying on any government “welfare” programs, but due to our family size, KA”H I don’t end up owing much in Federal income taxes, yet I still drive on Interstate highways, rely on the USDA for my food’s quality, and so far have not had foreign armies raiding my street. And I feel no guilt for any of it. Am I a bad person?
“or to refuse transparency by suggesting “trust us”, it is worth questioning those.”
This seems to be you taking a bad personal experience and projecting it onto an entire group of people.
crazy horse,
“I’ll get into specifics, like people who say you have to wash on one slice”
That’s not a chumra, that’s an issue of the nature of pizza and how we eat it.
“or cholov stam doesn’t apply today”
I believe the OU now relies on the Pri Chodosh rather than R’ Moshe’s original heter, so there has been a change in application that may impact people’s choices. That said, many are keeping C”Y as a “chumra” (i.e., they eat C”Y but are not makpid on keilim) because there is increased availability of C”Y products.
“You can no longer work today and have to stay in Kollel forever.”
Tempest in a tea pot.
“The people who claim shaitels can no longer be worn, because old shaitels were fake looking, (plastic only started being widely used in the 60s).”
There’s plenty of sheitels being worn out there. Another tempest in a tea pot.
crazy horse,
“My point is Neo orthodoxy is not necessarily a bad thing, but I think it’s important to recognize it’s existence.”
I don’t think it’s a bad thing either. And from my perspective, there’s nothing “neo” about it; it’s just Orthodoxy, or rather, our desire to serve Hashem the best we can. People are taking on more chumros because they are increasingly able to. Rabbeinu Tam tefillin more are easily available to get. An increase in availability and variety of cholov Yisroel products makes it easier to keep. Etc.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“If you feel any of these issues worth addressing, feel free to propose your specific solutions.”
Also, this is circular reasoning, because you are presuming the existence of these issues.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I may sound like a partisan to you as I am addressing several specific points where I think community is going in a wrong direction”
Partisan is too mild a word. When your “specific points” are exclusively directed at a community that you are not a part of, and are not based on reason or personal experience, or any limited personal experience is processed in a biased way to amplify the negative and negate the positive, that is not partisanship, that is prejudice.
“I was making some specific suggestions in the middle of stereotyping.”
Specific suggestions that ignore communal needs, values, mores, and culture are meaningless. You’ll make more headway telling the public schools you adore that they need more God and prayer in their classrooms.
“It is, in fact, the right approach when you hear tochacha that feels very unfair – any tochacha is valuable, so search even an unfair one for possibly something relevant.”
That may be if the tochacha was directed at me, but I am not in kollel. My goal in this conversation is וחי אחיך עמך
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I don’t see high hostility from MO to kollel in my area.”
Old-ish joke: A lady in Century Village down in Florida was watching the news, and saw a breaking story about a wrong-way driver in I-95. Knowing her husband was driving home from the store, she called him frantically. “Irving! Get off the road right now! There’s a maniac going the wrong way down I-95!”
Irving said, “One maniac? I see a hundred!”
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Avram, a good point on yetzer hara, but I am not sure why the lame excuse “we are not perfect”.”
Where have I made any excuses? Jews are not perfect – Bilaam saw that too, but was Hashem happy with what he did? I know you feel that you are giving tochacha and not trying to curse, but your tochacha is unspecific, based on negative stereotypes, and sounds like it was lifted off the pages of the Xian bible’s rants against Pharisees. Listen to the feedback you are receiving, think about what is motivating you.
“Our community has no problem on taking on various chumros”
It seems like you do have a problem with it.
“but suddenly in the matters of lifestyle and integrity, we are looking for kulos.”
Are we? Have you conducted a poll?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Again, maybe I am too sensitive here to the holiness v other jobs, following rambam”
You want Torah Yidden to be perfect – we all do. We should be careful though because the yetzer hara doesn’t just use our taivos against us, it can use our holiness against us as well, changing a desire to build up into acts of tearing down.
“Again, maybe OOT gets it worse and things are different in the heart of Jewish civilization.”
I’m also OOT, and maybe things are different in your corner of OOT. But here, there are a lot of MO who express hostility towards kollel learning and kollel learners, R”L, perhaps using the Rambam as cover. And thus, those learning in kollel here are truly mesiras nefesh for their Torah, and they give back to the community with shiurim and chavrusos. And some go into other professions after learning for a number of years, but those learning seem genuinely to be on fire for Torah. That’s why I find it hard to process your stereotypes of the lazy and sinister kollel man.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“When someone is burnt out by being a merchant or a doctor, he can still work to provide parnosa to the family and, hopefully, does quality job selling or x-raying.”
Why would a teacher be any different than this?
“If he is failing, there are systems in place – competition, management that will push him out.”
Why is teaching any different? Parents and the school’s menahel can notice issues and take corrective actions.
“When you are learning or teaching (and I lumped in teaching as it is _sometimes_ a consequence of learning and not having other job prospects)”
Why do you devalue learning and teaching? Do you not think it is a worthwhile or important?
“That a learnt couple of teachers can not get their own kid out of bad situation… other people are not in the position where they are tied to a school job (evek avdut?).”
So if we were talking about a family struggling with the idea of taking their kids out of public school to put them into a frum school (very real issue on the “fringes” of the frum velt), would you not describe it as a problem with the family’s priorities? Yet wrt the teacher family struggling with the idea of taking their kids out of a poor situation to pay higher tuitions and put them into a better frum school, you frame it as a systematic issue with Torah learners instead of an issue with this specific family’s priorities? This does not seem to be fair or reasonable.
“yes, it is called a wife.”
Do kollel men or Torah teachers not have wives?
“Someone without an occupation and with peer pressure has harder time to change his ways.”
This is a cop-out. A mature adult realizes that it is his relationship with Hashem, his life, and his family that he needs to concern himself with. It’s not Torah’s fault if someone hits 40 and has never outgrown a high school mentality.
“They may have signed up out of free will, or out of community pressure. They may think it is time to change, but expectations are set and alternatives are scarce.”
See my previous comment.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I saw a number of people of all genders working in chinuch who are burnt out with the lifestyle.”
“Working” in chinuch is not the same thing as full time learning in kollel – they are working and getting paid for working! Burnout is not exclusive to klei kodesh.
“As a shocking illustration, one complained to me that her husband did not want to move the kid to another school for several years because they both worked in the current school and it was “free”.”
Why is that shocking? Or specifically a “kollel” or more broadly a klei kodesh issue?
“But you are right, a lot of kollel wives are nashim chayil and do not complain here (although they have their own site).”
If you’re referencing the site I think you are, it’s an even more troll-infested place than here.
“And I am not at all claiming that something is majority or typical. I am asking – whether we have mechanisms to prevent abuses, however rare they might be.”
Do we have mechanisms to prevent workaholic husbands who never see their kids? Or latchkey kids who are home alone for hours after school? Why does klei kodesh need some sort of special mechanism that other adult-run families do not? These are general domestic issues that apply to all families whether the husband learns in kollel, teaches in a yeshiva, or is a high powered lawyer. And the mechanism is good, open, and loving communication between husband and wife, and parents and children.
“I out in-laws on the list of possibly non-kosher funding for the reason that if the in-laws are not doing it fully out of their free will, there is avak geneiva here.”
How are they not doing it of their own free will? Blackmail? Threats of bodily harm? Support us in kollel for 10 years or Bruno will make you swim with the fishies?
“My understanding that majority of Bavliim would come to the yeshiva for 2 months and go work the rest of the year while reviewing the masechet on their own.”
I think that’s flipped?
I like ujm’s answer, but given that we were all at Har Sinai, my answer would be in the days of Bayis Rishon during the rule of a righteous king.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“it is not just my interpretation. It is a minority opinion, but with Rambam, RebE, and a majority opinion in Bavli on “my side” v. Rashbi and a lot of modern poskim, we should give both sides some respectful hearing. “
Can you really name any modern posek who advocates that we go by the Rashbi’s derech in learning? And are you sure that you are really on the “side” of, say R’ Yishmael and Rava? Nissan and Tishrei to plant and harvest with the other 10 months sitting and learning is a far cry from the 8-10 hour workday + commuting regimen that working today entails for many.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I think Yabia is asking what is the social background here.”
I think if that was what he was asking, he would have written it.
“If a girl is pressured into the arrangement in some way, or if she later changes her mind but is reluctant to speak out – does the husband have sensitivity to notice or the kollel a way to find out.”
It’s interesting to me how those who see women making a different life decision from the one they prefer conclude that those women must be victims of their circumstances, pressured into a horrible life. A husband and the wife are both grown adults, as are the parents/in-laws who may or may not be supporting the couple. They can decide what works for their family, they are more than capable of discussing their changing needs and situations, and it is not our business to peer into their windows and attack the foundations of their homes. I also find it interesting that the CR is not full of angry kollel wives bemoaning their fates. The agita is coming almost exclusively from those not in kollel.
“Also, anyone claiming that wife can be satisfied by illicit funds, whether taken from in-laws, unreported income, or inappropriately obtained SNAP is really adding to the abuse of the lady – she does not have to be forced to be part of such aveiros (if they happen)”
A few questions – who on here other than you is making such a claim? And how is in-law support illicit that you lump it in with these other examples?
coffee addict,
“For Yaakov Shwekey to sing “we are America” instead of we are a miracle is making politics into a religion”
I think the lyric was “we love America”. I wasn’t commenting on the correctness of the explosion of political expression over the past 5-10 years, just what I perceive to be the causes.
n0mesorah,
“Last week’s statement not to enforce gun control by executive order.”
Seems to lack context. Trump had a considerably higher rate of EO issuance than Obama and Bush, but his rate was ~55 per year, and Biden issued 77 EOs during 2021, as well as 80 memorandums. Not to mention the private sector vaccination mandate through OSHA. I don’t see this return to a respect for the Legislative Branch that has been absent for the past few administrations that you see.
“As a long time senator, Biden understands that the Senate is the place for legal reforms, declarations of war, and ratifying treaties.”
An EO would remove the perceived political benefit of obstructionist Republicans, would serve as a lightning rod for conservatives, and would face immediate and likely successful legal challenges. I’m guessing political expediency stayed his hand more than a respect for the separation of powers.
n0mesorah,
“The executive branch is fulfilling it’s role. For the first time in fifteen years”
What is the Biden Administration doing specifically to fulfill your idea of its role that neither the Trump or Obama Administrations did?
coffee addict,
“Why are people so hung up on them (the same thing can be said about sports)”
I think there’s a few things at play:
1. Non-Orthodox Jews have effectively replaced Judaism with liberal politics as their religion, and they have been loudly proclaiming this message for years. Abortion is a Jewish value! etc. This has prompted a backlash in the Torah community.
2. The NYC government has singled out the Jewish community multiple times over the past few years in a highly tone deaf and humiliating manner. Coupled with the rise in antisemitic attacks and a perceived failure to address the root cause of these attacks, the visibly Jewish community in NYC and surrounding areas feels ignored and hated by the local level Democratic party establishment.
3. Whether you loved or hated the Trump Administration, there was never such engagement with the frum community specifically at the Federal level as we saw during his presidency, and additionally Republican senators such as Ted Cruz have increasingly commented on issues affecting the frum community, which are unique from the non-Orthodox issues. Thus, Orthodox Jews are feeling seen and heard by Federal-level Republicans at the same time they are feeling ignored and marginalized by Democrats at all levels of government.Yabia Omer,
“Is this the most important issue facing Klal Yisroel in 2022?”
Oh my goodness yes.
coffee addict,
“Did chassidim say tachnun yesterday?”
We didn’t say tachanun yesterday, though after being mevarchim hachodesh we did still say Av harachamim before ashrei.
n0mesorah,
“It’s not separating from anyone … But, as outsiders”
🤔
I’m not telling anyone what to do, but why does a tefilla that takes no more than 3 minutes at mincha and 60% of weekday shacharis, and 7-10 minutes on Monday and Thursday mornings cause so much consternation? There is a palpable ripple of relief in the room when tachanun is unexpectedly skipped, like people driving up to a toll bridge and finding the tolls temporarily suspended. I’m speaking to myself as well, because I feel it too. But we’re asking Hashem to be completely at His mercy and not at the mercy of anyone else, which should cause us to feel relief.
n0mesorah,
“Is there any contemporary that you’ve read on the six mitzvos? The classics are to terse, or hard to imagine into our thinking. I want to claim, that I am not saying any chiddush at all in these foundational mitzvos. If we would start from the sources it would never end. So can you pick something for me to be in line with?”
Declaring that you’re not saying a chiddush does not punt the burden of proof onto me. Our disagreement is not with the six mitzvos themselves, but whether one can disregard those six mitzvos and even further disregard any belief in Hashem at all, and still be within the bounds of the Torah.
n0mesorah,
“And [t]o get to the superiority claim, the people that have issues with Chabad, even the gedolim, just don’t speak in the same terms as Chabad. So it makes specific questions impossible. And then Chabad says, “you just don’t understand. We know better.” It’s not a bias as much as a language barrier.”
The purpose of language is to enable sharing of complex information, so it kind of defeats the purpose to redefine words to one’s own liking and then blame others for misunderstanding. “Oh! It’s your fault I poured water on your head, because in Avram-in-MDese “please pass the potatoes” means “pour water on me”. And if you say that the terminology is consistent within Chabad itself and they know what they’re talking about, I have two responses: #1 it is wrong to separate from the rest of klal Yisroel, and #2 seemingly at least some in Chabad have also failed to adopt or understand the redefinitions, hence the meshichists and elohists.
n0mesorah,
“1. Beliefs are inconsequential at the base level of Judaism.”
You seem to be defining “base level of Judaism” as “functional within an Orthodox community”, and I do not agree that this is so.
At that point why not make something designed for dairy, like French onion soup?
TS Baum,
Thanks for your response to my questions.
“You have these people also.
In a perfect world there would be none of these extreme chareidim.”This is the “they do the same things themselves” argument I mentioned above.
“I’ll tell you straight up – at all costs possible – we don’t want to cause even more machlokes and divide in luabvitch.”
There is a lot of space between silence and excommunication that can be utilized. Also, avoiding machlokes and divide is a noble goal, but is it truthfully the most important aim to be had “at all costs”? What if people started building golden statues of the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L, and bowing down to them and offering them korbonos? That’s a ridiculous example, but as a real world example, what about the disruption the mishichists are causing to Chabad’s ability to disseminate the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s teachings to the Jewish world? Would the Lubavitcher Rebbe have wanted this kind of distraction from his life’s mission?
“One thing I can tell you is that by causing more sinas chinam and bashing them does not help.”
I disagree that criticism automatically means sinas chinam. Machlokes for the sake of Torah is certainly not. But…
“I don’t either think a YWN CR Forum will help either, I think this was made just to give the coffee room a bit more life.”
I agree with you here.
n0mesorah,
“For now, let’s continue on the other 607 mitzvos only.”
As I’ve argued before, I don’t see how this distinction can be made – a basic level of belief is a prerequisite for fulfillment of all of the mitzvos.
“Second of all, I put myself in a theological bind. In order to put my defining point into focus, I pushed it beyond any reasonable parameters. Of course any sane human has to be thinking something to be observant.”
Correct, hence my not-so-reasonable examples of an athiest observing mitzvos out of guilt, etc. It’s not sustainable at all, and only the external will be kept (and then perhaps only when others are looking), and mitzvos have both external and internal components.
“However, that may speak more to our humanness, than to spirituality. After all, do malachim ‘think’ when they observe His will?”
The Torah was made for humans – it is the blueprint of humanity, and in fact the astonishingly blunt and accurate knowledge of how humans work was what drew me who grew up non-frum into Torah more than any “age of the universe” type arguments that are popular with Aish, etc.
“My main point is this. Every Born-Observant Jew, starts of practicing before they understand any Torah system.”
I don’t really agree with this. Young children innately have an innocent and pure faith that is cute beyond words, but are also ruled completely by their yetzer hara. This is a necessary part of their development, because children need to have their needs met for survival. As we get older, we can increasingly suppress and control our yetzer hara, but our knowledge and understanding also becomes more complex, which gives the yetzer hara new areas to attack other than the stomach and the toys.
“Some people never get that there is a specific purpose to Torah. And they have a mush where others have a sense of purpose.”
And this is something to be sad about and try to change, not accept with a shrug.
“If they preach their lack of knowledge, the proper response is ‘you need to learn more’ or something similar.”
Not if they start gathering adherents to their cause.
“But if they change their practice because it is all mush anyways, then they begin to lose their bona fides. if this is true, then it follows that observance can be achieved without any real idea of the Godhead.”
Not so, only outward observance, which is incomplete, and as I’ve been arguing this whole time, not sufficient to actually be considered fulfilling the mitzvos at all. In another hopefully approved post, I pointed out that our acceptance of “Orthoprax” is more due to our inability to see inside a person and thus using the outward appearances as a proxy. But our acceptance does not a kosher Jew make. That’s up to Hashem, as it says (paraphrasing Chumash Devarim), the revealed are for us and the hidden are for Hashem to deal with.
“I contend that some people are not just uncomfortable talking about Hashem, they really do not understand what the whole conversation is about.”
Yes, someone gave us a children’s book that told the story of Passover, and while the illustrations were great, I noticed that the book did not mention Hashem at all! It made it sound like Moshe Rabbeinu was a magic man who did it all – the book could’ve been titled “Moses and his magic staff”. So I read it to my kids, changing the words to say that Hashem did all of these things, and then chucked the book into the trash after they went to bed.
To keep the mitzvos on even the basic level, one has to fully accept all the mitzvos. Now, the query of the six constant mitzvos becomes unavoidable.”
Nu?