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Always_Ask_Questions,
“I do not agree with the premise. You may also not use flood insurance because you live on a hill, or subsidies for veterans because you did not serve.”
He said legally and halachically. These examples are illegal and against halacha. Admittedly I do not know what he means by “get around”. If someone qualifies for a benefit and applies for and takes the benefit, that’s not “getting around” anything.
“Question: Someone wishes to make aliya to Eretz Yisrael (to fulfill the mitzvah of settling the land of Israel) but has financial difficulties, and is only able to come if he does not inform the United States Government about his income, which many people do regularly, is it permitted for him to do so or not?”
So this is another example of illegal activity, on which I think everyone here agrees is 100% assur and thus not debated. What we are debating is the idea of taking benefits that one is legally entitled to, but you feel is avoidable if the person spurned his shtender for Party U to get a recognized and thus “respectable” degree (BA in Art History?).
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I would not dare look up Igros Moshe myself. What if then I find out that someone else is more machmir, or more meikil.”
What if you find out that someone else is more machmir or more meikil than your LOR?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“we have both requirements – not to depend on tzedoka when one is able to, and to give when one is able to. I don’t know what is controversial here. “
A few posts up you stated that it’s considered a “mitzvah” to do everything possible to minimize taxes paid, but you seem to think it’s essentially a crime for someone who qualifies for an income-based benefit to take it. If both giving (i.e., paying taxes) and not taking benefits are “requirements” in your mind, why the disparate attitudes towards those who avoid giving vs those who take, assuming both stay out of “gray areas”?
BD”E, so sorry to hear this. May Hashem give the CTL family comfort for their loss.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“It is considered a mitzvah in this country to minimize taxes paid, take all possible deductions”
Some segments of U.S. society over-obsess about people receiving welfare benefits. Other segments over-obsess about people “not paying their fair share”. Both segments like to turn their obsessions into religious polemics. The laws are what they are, and everybody is going to maximize their benefits permitted by law. Don’t like the law? Vote for candidates that see things as you do. But other people may vote differently.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I mentioned local Rav not r Moshe because you want to be sure you get unbiased advice.”
If necessary, my local rav would most likely look to the Igros Moshe for that type of shaila. And bringing Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L for an American shaila is not going psak shopping.
“I see welfare as nonJewish collective charity.”
It doesn’t matter how you see it. Dina malchusa dina, what matters is how the law sees it.
“Note that they let you to sometimes subtract your charity from taxes, do they see the kesher.”
If the U.S. government wants to promote citizens giving to charity, and Welfare is charity, why would they give tax deductions? Collect more taxes!
“As stealing from a tzibur is hard to atone for. So, if you inappropriately spent NJ funds, you got to go to all towns and build water fountains there!? It maybe sakanah”
Someone who qualifies for benefits and takes them to buy whole wheat bread, milk, fish, and vegetables for their kids instead of cheap bulk mac and chemical powder cheese is doing nothing illegal, no matter how much you hate them for it or think they should wave a magic wand and have a higher income. Someone who doesn’t qualify for benefits but takes them through false pretenses is both committing a crime and violating halacha, but that’s not what we’ve been debating.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“most of Jewish world was unprepared to modernity; Jews who learned the old-fashioned way – between mincha and maariv”
Learning between mincha and maariv is not the universal “old-fashioned” way. Learning was certainly not like that in Vilna, for example. Unfortunately, there was widespread poverty and ignorance in parts of the European Jewish world as the haskala swept Europe, but I don’t think this was due to a longstanding “status quo” in Yiddishkeit that simply became inadequate once Napoleon’s troops started fanning out. The 1600s and 1700s were some of the darkest times of golus, along with the Spanish expulsion and the Crusades. The Shabbetai Tzvi and Frankist movements were absolutely devastating spiritually, and the horrors of Khmelnytskyi and the Cossacks wiped out or displaced a significant portion of Polish/Ukrainian Jewry. And then much of European Jewry was consigned to extreme poverty in the highly tumultuous Pale of Settlement.
The historical perspective is nice, but I’m talking about the present, and comments made here on the CR.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I was just explaining that you start w/ early sources and then see what qualifiers later sources add to that.”
But that’s not what you did. You stopped at the Rambam and S”A, and then applied highly specific “psak” for today’s U.S. situation. That people should not accept money from government programs targeted to low income families to learn full time (assuming these programs = tzedaka), that they should make Shabbos like chol (which today would not impact the weekly budget much at all), etc.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“after, psak from a local chareidi Rav.
And Rav Moshe Feinstein, ZT”L.
“does this decision affect how you see taxes and getting them back?”
It helps determine whether the tax dollars that go to government programs are considered maaser/tzedaka or not. Also, the Federal revenue does not belong to Joe Biden personally, unlike a king’s treasury. The Constitution gives promoting the general welfare as one of the bases for the government’s role, part of which legislators have determined is programs that provide funds for citizens who meet specific criteria to purchase healthy foods, pay rent or mortgages, get income tax credits, etc. I don’t see this as charity any more than public schools are charity.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“1) I do not choose my learning sources based on their reading or not of Kant or knowing calculus, or even political or social positions. I guess I’d draw a line for those supporting Arafat or Putin, but this is, b’H, not a big group at our times.”
The criticism that y1836 has for AviraDeArah is essentially that he is engaging in a “no true Scotsman” fallacy. That’s certainly possible, but seeing Avira’s comments in other threads, his positions on the Tzitz Eliezer and Rav Kook have been fairly consistent. I do think we should have standards on our learning sources.
“I think I fully appreciate successes of yeshiva/hareidi movement in getting us to the current moment.”
I don’t, or at least if it is so, you are not communicating it here. In fact, the opposite. You’ve taken frequent shots at kollel learners, and it has gone beyond the current argument of whether it’s ok to take entitlements into suspicions of maleficence.
“I also suspect that gedolim’ opinions is not as the oilam sees it”
Other than the “oilam” not lining up with your views, what makes you suspect this?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“True, I did not trace it further to our times, but you probably know this is how halakha is discussed, starting from earlier sources.”
We can’t just “not trace it further to our times” when dealing with halacha l’maase. Otherwise you’re doing the same thing with the Rambam that Joseph does here in the CR with the handful of halachos in Ishus that he repeats again and again to troll feminists.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“So, just general thinking about halakhic status of payments from government … I guess.”
You can’t just “wing it” and guess whether it’s charity based on what sounds good to you if you’re going to then turn around and condemn Jews for taking it. Question: do you calculate maaser on your income before or after taxes?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“We look at “gedolim” to see something that we might not figure out ourselves.”
You should take your own advice. There are gedolim in Lakewood. They know that people there learn Torah while receiving government benefits. I’m pretty sure they’ve also heard of the Rambam and the Mishne Torah and maybe even learned it. Yet you insult them by saying “I am sure there are tirutzim to read away these basic halochos as such lifestyle seems acceptable.” So at the end of the day you’re doing no different than what you accuse AviraDeArah of doing.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“whatever it takes.”
So do you think the Rambam wrote the Mishne Torah for the rich to use to rub the poor’s faces in the dirt? You’ve mentioned making Shabbos as chol multiple times as if this would fix everything. How much do you really think that skipping Shalosh Seudos would affect a typical Jewish family’s weekly budget?
“YD 255 לעולם ירחיק אדם עצמו מהצדקה”
Who says that the U.S. Government entitlements are halachically considered tzedakah? They aren’t considered charity by the U.S. itself.
Yserbius123,
“Baruch Hashem for the … No Jewish state, no torah”
These two statements are incongruous.
AviraDeArah,
“in europe they hate us, but rockets aren’t shot into jewish communities, air raid sirens aren’t part of life”
True.
“terror attacks don’t happen”
Not true.
“and the government doesn’t try to take away your religion.”
Not true.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I agree, and I believe there are some initiatives that makes charedim serve in acceptable units.”
Acceptable to whom?
“that’s a cheap shot. Someone who serves in the army risks his life for the safety of others.”
Nah, don’t give me that shtick. AviraDeArah was not criticizing Israeli soldiers, and he’s American, not Israeli. If you can arbitrarily create “sides” in Am Yisroel, assign someone to a “side”, and declare it chutzpah for him to criticize something on the “other” side, then why can’t I?
“My skepticism regarding current social system is not that I don’t want people to learn, I want them to learn with all the chumros mentioned by Rambam and human decency.”
Chumros? Human decency? Your position does not originate from the Rambam. You have prejudices and seek justification for them from the Rambam. To paraphrase a big rav (can’t remember who): feel free to say my Torah in your name, but do not say your Torah in my name.
“I am all for father-in-laws and businessmen supporting learners”
No you’re not. I’ve been around the block with you on that topic before.
“or people learning in poverty without using funds that are not given to them for that purpose.”
What level of poverty would you like to see before you’re satisfied? It’s only you who declares the government funds dispersed are not for the purpose of supporting families, not the government itself.
Avi K,
“conquering and possessing EY is part of Torah.”
So said the Jewish people immediately following the sin of the spies, with disastrous results, R”L. We have to make sure we’re doing things the right way.
“So is looking good in the eyes of the other nations.”
The way to look good in the eyes of the other nations is to follow Hashem and His Torah, not to try and be just like them.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“This argument sounds like hutzpa from the side that doesn’t generally serve, whatever good reasons might be for that”
Ergo, is it also chutzpah for a “side” that doesn’t generally learn Torah full time to criticize kollel learners? Also, if chareidi enlistment was desirable to the army, would it not be prudent for them to find out why chareidim do not serve?
“I just read that Netziv put his shabbos clothes to accept a first bottle of wine from EY. that was at the time of early Zionists”
There’s a distinction between Eretz Yisroel itself and the medina that rules portions of E”Y and the Negev.
Always_Ask_Questions,
” the methods tried during that period was to start at teen ages (and the result was that they did not listen to parents). So, they were not following Pirkei Avot.”
I think the reason they started teenagers in the second takana listed was not because they were experimenting with the best age to start learning Torah – they knew it should start at a younger age – but rather because the schools were set up “pelech upelech”, one in each larger district (comprised of many smaller districts/towns) as opposed to one in each town. Therefore it wouldn’t have been safe for a young child to travel a long distance to get to his district school.
Another possible way to look at it – perhaps the takanos weren’t trial and error, but rather progressive responses to a deteriorating situation. The first takana bringing students to Yerushalayim – perhaps they were learning Torah with their fathers but increasing numbers needed the kedushah of the city to get to the higher levels of learning that previous generations attained. But then growing numbers of fathers weren’t even able to bring their sons to the level needed to attend in Yerushalayim, so they set up the district schools for teenagers to learn “gemara” after presumably learning the alef beis, chumash, and some mishnayos at home But the boys did not have the proper discipline to accept rebuke from a new teacher, so finally Yehoshua ben Gamla decreed to put teachers in each town so young children could attend safely and be exposed to teachers outside of home?
CTLAWYER,
“Mrs. CTL is so looking forward to observing and listening. The officiants are coming from NY, so I will sign the license as a JP”
May it be a joyous event, and may your wife have a refuah shleima.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I think this is bad math. It does not matter in a long-term, when you pay just interest or principal. There is cost of capital that you pay as interest and you are paying it regardless.”
I think this is bad following the argument. We’re not talking long term repayment of a bank loan with interest in a vacuum. CTLAWYER specifically said that his children paid him back for the houses he bought and/or flipped them for larger houses in 5-7 years, which is short term.
Let’s say Billy got a bank mortgage of $120,000 at 3.25% interest for his starter property, and Bob got $120,000 from his father as a zero-interest loan. And they pay the same, so Billy pays $522.25 a month in P&I, while Bob pays $522.25 a month to dad as just P. After 5 years, Billy has paid not quite $13,000 into the principal of his loan, while Bob has paid over $31,000 towards the principal. Who’s got more purchasing power to flip his house for a bigger one? Add to that the fact that Bob’s dad gave him a job right out of school and let him live rent-free with his wife in an apartment for a number of years, whereas Billy had to find his own job and pay rent, and you can see that CTLAWYER’s help is pretty substantial.
Re: poshut in-town schnorrers vs organized netflix gangs… A man came to the door of Rav so-and-so collecting tzedaka for a kallah. “Get a job!” yelled the rav, and the man slumped away, head hung in shame, and left the beis medrash and got a job, and everyone praised the rav for his awesomeness … said no gedolim story ever.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“how do you explain Bava Basra 21 that explicitly describes the trial and error process that Tannaim (or earlier) used to come up with a working educational system?”
That is a very different case. Pirkei Avos are proverbs disseminated by the great links in the chain of Torah transmission over multiple generations. It literally represents the wisdom of our mesora. The gemara in Bava Basra is describing a series of takanos that the sages made in response to a specific situation – the deterioration of Torah transmission to the young during the Second Temple period. It was not that nobody ever knew how to teach children before and the sages in the Second Temple had to go figure it out. Our mesora was אב מלמדו תורה, as it says in krias shema: and you shall teach them to your children. This stopped working due to yeridas hadoros and the stressors of foreign occupation, and Rav Yehuda (via Rav) credits Yehoshua ben Gamla for making the takana that saved Torah from being forgotten by the Jewish people. Note that the gemara is clear about what the problem was, and why the sages were enacting each takana. By Pirkei Avos, GH is imposing her own reasons for the statement that appeal to her own values system.
CTLAWYER,
“Don’t throw at me the lifetime of a typical mortgage loan nonsense. I was clear the homes were paid off in 5-7 years.”
What I said is absolutely relevant. Around here, a “starter” property such as a 1 bed, 1 bath apartment in a suburban-located high rise, sells for around $150,000. If your kids paid you back in ~6 years, that means theoretically they managed to shell out around $25,000 per year to you. That amount is more than half of my gross income when I started my career out of grad school, and had I been paying that, I would not have been able to afford food, utilities, gas, etc. for my family. Hence I said the CTL firm must pay well, and how nice for the kids to have a job lined up for them post graduation. It’s more likely, however, that they repaid the loan to you in ~6 years by selling the house you bought for them and using the proceeds to pay you back – but you wrote that they upsized, which means they had to have considerable equity in the house in order to scrounge the down payment on the 4 bed 2.5 bath single family home. Some of this equity probably came from increased home value, but a big part of it came from the fact that you bought the property for them outright, so 100% of what they paid back to you became their equity. The reason I brought in the bank loan “nonsense” is that for us poor pitiable peons, we can’t build equity that fast because we had to get a big mortgage (and sometimes pay PMI) because daddy can’t just spring for a whole house.
“What is typical? When I bought my first house 50 years ago”
Don’t throw at me the 50 years ago nonsense. My home was built in 1959, and it’s value increased more than 16-fold between the time it was built and when I bought it from the bank as a run-down foreclosure “as is” in the nadir of the late 2000s financial crisis. Property is vastly more expensive now than it was 50 years ago even accounting for changes in dollar value and incomes, and housing costs are a significantly bigger fraction of a household budget than it used to be.
“They are not supporting their children when they have their hands out asking OTHERS to support their children.”
Remind me to use this line the next time a co-worker comes in toting girl scout cookies.
“but if he shows up in my small town shul and has a 30 minute drive to the next minyan, he isn’t using his time wisely and the cost with $4.50 gallon gas is prohibitive.”
How many “schnorrers” are you really getting prowling around your isolated CT shul interrupting your davening? And in my experience, it’s not usually the parents coming collecting for their kids’ weddings, the collectors are trying to help a yesoma, or another type of unfortunate situation.
“It is one one Mrs. CTL’s greatest joys to host a wedding”
I’m very happy to hear that she is B”H well enough to help host weddings! May both you and she have continued strength and good health.
Gadolhadorah,
“Your reading of my post was that the Tana in the Mishna “made up” the 18 yo age for kiddushin w/o any basis.”
I mean “made up” based on his own personal observations, opinions, and conclusions, as opposed to a mesorah he received.
“There had to be some rationale for 18yo (versus 17 yo or 19 yo)……it is an age level where he believed that a young man was READY to assume the responsibilities for marriage and presumably, his conclusion was informed by his own experience based on what he knew at the time.”
This is exactly what I mean when I said you hold the tanna (Yehuda ben Teima) made it up based on his own observations of his own time. Which, though he was a wise rabbi, we can disregard to our detriment, CV”S, because “times have changed.” No, in Pirkei Avos and the rest of the Mishna, the tannaim are passing down the mesorah that they received from their teachers. To reduce this to empiricism is devastating, because it closes the door to proper understanding of the Torah and cuts us off from the chain that links us to Har Sinai.
Also, the very next line in the mishna disproves your assertion that the main should already have his parnassa before marriage and children – as it says the pursuit (of parnassa) is at age 20, two years after the age of marriage.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Avram above defends applying Pirkei Avos literally to current social situation.”
I said nothing about taking it literally or not. GH manufactured a reason for the statement, and used it to place a limit on who can marry. That is what I objected to.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Gemora is full of social and psychological insights that guide their decisions and it is not such a big leap that some respectful adjustments need to happen.”
Big difference between understanding applied psak and Torah values as passed down from the gemara through the rishonim, acharonim, etc. and making up some interpretation that fits your own beliefs and then changing the Torah to conform.
CTLAWYER,
“The cost of loaning the money at no interest for home purchases was far less than the cost of an apartment in Israel.”
Over the lifetime of a typical mortgage loan, homeowners typically pay out $100,000-$200,000 in interest, and much of the interest is paid early in the life of the loan, which slows building the equity that can be used to sell and “upsize.” For this reason it doesn’t normally make sense to finance a home and then sell it in 5-7 years unless the property value skyrockets. So to provide an interest free loan to your kids to purchase a home is big-league support.
“our children put down 25% down payments that came from their earnings. All paid off the loans within 5-7 years.”
That CTLaw firm must pay quite well. They’re lucky the firm took special notice of them and offered them jobs.
“Why did MRS. CTL and I work so hard for our adult lives if not for our family?”
Kol hakavod! I think what you are doing is absolutely wonderful. I just don’t understand why you’re looking down at other families who are also helping support their children.
“I stayed in my sister’s in Massachusetts 2 nights a week when I was in law school, big deal.”
It is a big deal, and I hope you showed hakaras hatov to your sister.
“MY point is that unless able to earn a living a couple has no business getting married.”
And my point is that that not only is that viewpoint the antithesis of Torah Judaism, it is cruel, because it makes marriage the privilege of the elite. And it surprises me that it’s three Democrats – the party that supposedly cares about the poor – who have chimed in with this position.
“those coming to minyanim to schnor wedding funds, I find it unacceptable.”
Well, the Torah is not based on what you personally find to be unacceptable, or what commonsaychel finds to be humiliating. We have a mitzvah to be misameach a chosson and kallah and to provide for their wedding. In fact, the gemara tells us that those who do so earn reward in this world without decreasing their reward in olam haba. So those “schnorrers” who are coming into your shul are bathing in diamonds, and tossing some on the tables and selling them to you for that wrinkled dollar in your pocket.
I’m a Justice of the Peace, I’d marry them for nothing in my office, enough frum Yidden there to make a minyan and I’ll break out a bottle of scnhaaps and kichel afterwards.
If that will bring the chosson and kallah joy, go for it!
“Weddings are overblown and overpriced.”
\
On this we agree.Gadolhadorah,
“The mishna in Pirkei Avos sets forth … which is generally understood to mean … [a]t the time of the mishna, its quite possible that those criteria were frequently met by many bochurim”
This reasoning – making up a reason for a mishna or halacha, declaring that that reason no longer applies today, and thus throwing out the mishna or halacha, is a hallmark of the Conservative and Reform movements’ justifications for changing or rejecting Torah precepts, R”L. Like when a guy lectured me that the Torah says not to kindle lights on Shabbos because that was a really hard thing to do back in the old days, and that work primarily fell on the women, and therefore to make sure that women could also rest on Shabbos, no kindling lights. And of course now that kindling lights is easy we don’t need to worry about it so much anymore… Not only did he get the halacha and hashkafa wrong, he got the history wrong as well.
“or presumably, that was the Tana’s recollection of when HE felt prepared for marriage”
Do you think the Tannaim just made up their Torah as they went along, CV”S?
“Nowhere does the mishna make shidduchim contingent upon a W-2 showing sufficient earning to support his wife and family”
So why are you trying to limit young marriage to something only the rich can do?
CTLAWYER,
“We paid all the wedding expenses for our daughters … We paid for orchestra, liquor, personal flowers and officiant … Three started married lives in apartments we owned … many work in the CTL Law firm … Our first tow married grandchildren are living in apartments we own as they finish graduate schools … finance the home purchase so the children did not have to pay interest on a bank mortgage”
But at least you didn’t outright buy them houses, so they can experience what true grit and self-reliance are! B”H you have the means to support your children and grandchildren. Your financial support of them far exceeds these parents who are getting newlyweds apartments, so maybe the negative judgement is unwarranted.
“perhaps you should think about deferring kiddushin”
“if the couple doesn’t have the education and means to support themselves they have no business getting married”
“if they cannot support themselves prior to marriage why even marry?”
It’s very interesting how different the values systems are among some of the posters here.
Did Adam harishon have a navel?
Gadolhadorah,
“consider the shaliach tzibur whose chazanus is a legend in his own mind (and few others)…..when he walks off the bimah following his spectacular rendition of adon o’lam using a nigun no one seems to have ever heard before”
A chazzan doing a spectacular adon olam from the bimah? The only place I’ve seen that is in a conservative or reform service, bookending with the heilige “bim bam bim bim bim bam Shabbat Shalom” song and all of its associated hand motions. Given that these places typically have a hired professional cantor who leads the services, if it’s that bad, maybe talk to the board.
Menachem Shmei,
“scientists themselves acknowledge that it is impossible for them to prove one way or the other (according to Einstein’s theory of relativity)”
I don’t think the issue is that they cannot prove one or the other – but rather either can be chosen as a valid frame of reference. Also, you and ujm are bringing in Einstein, but this form of relativity is older and applicable in Newtonian physics. Einstein’s special relativity showed that our observations of time and mass are also dependent on the frame of reference, and general relativity addresses gravity.
Reb Eliezer,
“According to Newton and Ptolemy’s view as every heavenly body has a gravitational pull based on its size, so why does not the enormous gravitational pull of the sun dislodge the earth from being stationary in the center?”
If we choose our position on Earth to be a stationary frame of reference, which is a valid thing to do, then the sun is not stationary within that frame of reference. However, when constructing Newton’s Laws using Earth as a stationary frame of reference, we find some interesting forces that we must account for, such as a Coriolis Force that increases with latitude, centrifugal force, etc. These “fictitious” forces are why many people whine about Earth not being a true stationary frame of reference. A stationary Earth surface is useful for terrestrial-based calculations, such as weather models, flight paths, etc. But when launching a rocket to the Moon or Mars, or tracking asteriods and comets, it might be more useful to pick a different frame of reference.
Menachem Shmei,
“Now, if there would be definite scientific proof that the earth revolves around the sun, we might have a problem. However, any modern day scientist agrees that there is no way to prove which is the correct way.”
What would you consider to be “definite scientific proof”?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Rw, for America specifically pacific current la Nina and oto haish determine a pattern of earm and cold for a year…”
El Nino and La Nina are not currents.
Balabus,
“why is leaving yeshivah frowned upon.”
It is up to each person to assess how he can best serve Hashem and work towards that goal. This does include financial considerations, a desire to utilize talents to serve or create things for people, etc. My guess on the frowning is that…
“the yeshivah system is just not for him”
is a cop-out type of reason showing that serving Hashem is likely not at the center of the man’s motivation.
“i think moshiach will come when the world can finally grow up and not judge/look down at other people because they left yeshiva.”
So this puts the OP squarely into troll territory, but I answered seriously because the subsequent discussion was serious.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“not from the point of view of taxpayers”
Who cares what the taxpayers think? I want to know what you think.
“other than classes accredited academically and qualifying for educational subsidies. Maybe, if we behave in a way that Americans see the value of learning and write it in the law and regulations, then it will be great.”
Ah, but they do. There are yeshivos and kollelim that offer academically accredited degrees such as BTL or BTS, and even graduate degrees. Semicha (religious ordination) is also a generally recognized accomplishment in the U.S. that can lead to employment as a clergyman. So if a yungerman was accruing these degrees or working towards semicha while sitting and learning, would that check your productivity boxes?
“Say, one who gets unemployment/welfare can either be learning a profession, search for work, or learn Torah.”
The median income for a 25-29 year old who is the proud and productive recipient of a bachelors degree majoring in humanities or liberal arts is just north of $40,000. The poverty line reaches that income with a household of 7 people, 5 of them being dependent children. So the question you should be asking your taxpayer friends is if it is valuable to the United States for people to get married and have children, and raise them in a culture that produces peaceful, extremely low crime communities with vibrant businesses and lots of travel.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“your productive lifestyle using available government program as part of it”
Is full time Torah learning not a productive lifestyle?
“I can say that none of the Talmidei Chachamim that I consulted about these issues, tried to correct my misunderstandings and mostly commiserated.”
Are you talking about kollel learners or Covid restrictions here?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“If communal norm is to, say, rely on welfare to support learning;”
So I got married right after getting by BS from a university, and we started having children while I was in grad school. We relied on some government programs such as Medicaid, and my parents and in-laws helped us a lot to make ends meet. My wife received some government grants to help her complete her bachelors degree. After grad school I landed a job, but based on our income and family size we qualified for housing assistance, and lived for a while in a rent-reduced apartment. When we purchased a house, we utilized a large interest free loan via a Federal homebuying program to help us scrape enough together for the minimum down payment. Now B”H we aren’t relying on any government “welfare” programs, but due to our family size, KA”H I don’t end up owing much in Federal income taxes, yet I still drive on Interstate highways, rely on the USDA for my food’s quality, and so far have not had foreign armies raiding my street. And I feel no guilt for any of it. Am I a bad person?
“or to refuse transparency by suggesting “trust us”, it is worth questioning those.”
This seems to be you taking a bad personal experience and projecting it onto an entire group of people.
crazy horse,
“I’ll get into specifics, like people who say you have to wash on one slice”
That’s not a chumra, that’s an issue of the nature of pizza and how we eat it.
“or cholov stam doesn’t apply today”
I believe the OU now relies on the Pri Chodosh rather than R’ Moshe’s original heter, so there has been a change in application that may impact people’s choices. That said, many are keeping C”Y as a “chumra” (i.e., they eat C”Y but are not makpid on keilim) because there is increased availability of C”Y products.
“You can no longer work today and have to stay in Kollel forever.”
Tempest in a tea pot.
“The people who claim shaitels can no longer be worn, because old shaitels were fake looking, (plastic only started being widely used in the 60s).”
There’s plenty of sheitels being worn out there. Another tempest in a tea pot.
crazy horse,
“My point is Neo orthodoxy is not necessarily a bad thing, but I think it’s important to recognize it’s existence.”
I don’t think it’s a bad thing either. And from my perspective, there’s nothing “neo” about it; it’s just Orthodoxy, or rather, our desire to serve Hashem the best we can. People are taking on more chumros because they are increasingly able to. Rabbeinu Tam tefillin more are easily available to get. An increase in availability and variety of cholov Yisroel products makes it easier to keep. Etc.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“If you feel any of these issues worth addressing, feel free to propose your specific solutions.”
Also, this is circular reasoning, because you are presuming the existence of these issues.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I may sound like a partisan to you as I am addressing several specific points where I think community is going in a wrong direction”
Partisan is too mild a word. When your “specific points” are exclusively directed at a community that you are not a part of, and are not based on reason or personal experience, or any limited personal experience is processed in a biased way to amplify the negative and negate the positive, that is not partisanship, that is prejudice.
“I was making some specific suggestions in the middle of stereotyping.”
Specific suggestions that ignore communal needs, values, mores, and culture are meaningless. You’ll make more headway telling the public schools you adore that they need more God and prayer in their classrooms.
“It is, in fact, the right approach when you hear tochacha that feels very unfair – any tochacha is valuable, so search even an unfair one for possibly something relevant.”
That may be if the tochacha was directed at me, but I am not in kollel. My goal in this conversation is וחי אחיך עמך
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I don’t see high hostility from MO to kollel in my area.”
Old-ish joke: A lady in Century Village down in Florida was watching the news, and saw a breaking story about a wrong-way driver in I-95. Knowing her husband was driving home from the store, she called him frantically. “Irving! Get off the road right now! There’s a maniac going the wrong way down I-95!”
Irving said, “One maniac? I see a hundred!”
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Avram, a good point on yetzer hara, but I am not sure why the lame excuse “we are not perfect”.”
Where have I made any excuses? Jews are not perfect – Bilaam saw that too, but was Hashem happy with what he did? I know you feel that you are giving tochacha and not trying to curse, but your tochacha is unspecific, based on negative stereotypes, and sounds like it was lifted off the pages of the Xian bible’s rants against Pharisees. Listen to the feedback you are receiving, think about what is motivating you.
“Our community has no problem on taking on various chumros”
It seems like you do have a problem with it.
“but suddenly in the matters of lifestyle and integrity, we are looking for kulos.”
Are we? Have you conducted a poll?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Again, maybe I am too sensitive here to the holiness v other jobs, following rambam”
You want Torah Yidden to be perfect – we all do. We should be careful though because the yetzer hara doesn’t just use our taivos against us, it can use our holiness against us as well, changing a desire to build up into acts of tearing down.
“Again, maybe OOT gets it worse and things are different in the heart of Jewish civilization.”
I’m also OOT, and maybe things are different in your corner of OOT. But here, there are a lot of MO who express hostility towards kollel learning and kollel learners, R”L, perhaps using the Rambam as cover. And thus, those learning in kollel here are truly mesiras nefesh for their Torah, and they give back to the community with shiurim and chavrusos. And some go into other professions after learning for a number of years, but those learning seem genuinely to be on fire for Torah. That’s why I find it hard to process your stereotypes of the lazy and sinister kollel man.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“When someone is burnt out by being a merchant or a doctor, he can still work to provide parnosa to the family and, hopefully, does quality job selling or x-raying.”
Why would a teacher be any different than this?
“If he is failing, there are systems in place – competition, management that will push him out.”
Why is teaching any different? Parents and the school’s menahel can notice issues and take corrective actions.
“When you are learning or teaching (and I lumped in teaching as it is _sometimes_ a consequence of learning and not having other job prospects)”
Why do you devalue learning and teaching? Do you not think it is a worthwhile or important?
“That a learnt couple of teachers can not get their own kid out of bad situation… other people are not in the position where they are tied to a school job (evek avdut?).”
So if we were talking about a family struggling with the idea of taking their kids out of public school to put them into a frum school (very real issue on the “fringes” of the frum velt), would you not describe it as a problem with the family’s priorities? Yet wrt the teacher family struggling with the idea of taking their kids out of a poor situation to pay higher tuitions and put them into a better frum school, you frame it as a systematic issue with Torah learners instead of an issue with this specific family’s priorities? This does not seem to be fair or reasonable.
“yes, it is called a wife.”
Do kollel men or Torah teachers not have wives?
“Someone without an occupation and with peer pressure has harder time to change his ways.”
This is a cop-out. A mature adult realizes that it is his relationship with Hashem, his life, and his family that he needs to concern himself with. It’s not Torah’s fault if someone hits 40 and has never outgrown a high school mentality.
“They may have signed up out of free will, or out of community pressure. They may think it is time to change, but expectations are set and alternatives are scarce.”
See my previous comment.