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Shlomo2,
“When you don’t have a full-time job, you’ve got lots more time on your hands to volunteer.
When you do have a full-time job, you do not.
And when both husband and wife are working full-time, as is common in Israel, you REALLY don’t have time for volunteering.”Nah, I know lots of couples married and both working full time who have tons of free time. They leave work and eat out, perform in orchestral groups, play sports, go to movies, etc. Certainly much more free time than parents at home with multiple young children.
“Only stating my opinion that the higher rate of volunteerism in the EY haredi community relative to the EY non-haredi community is not necessarily due to their moral superiority, but to their having more time on their hands.”
Nobody even claimed that it was moral superiority. The OP brought the statistics to counter those who call Chareidim parasites, Your response is to lecture us about how full time workers are the ones whose tax money pays for the social services the Chareidim use but presumably don’t pay for. Which is a more polite way of calling them parasites. If the Israeli government is hurting so bad for tax revenue, how about removing the barriers that prevent more Chareidim from getting better jobs?
Rocky,
“We say gadol hametzuve v’ose meimee sheinono metzuve- greater is one who does when he is commanded then one who volunteers. Those who serve the other members of society by serving in the army because they are commanded to by the government (and have kavana to help their fellow Jew) should be considered greater”
This reasoning is incorrect. Your statement is referring to mitzvos. One may be “obligated” by the secular state to serve in the army, though halacha does not obligate him. On the other hand, bikur cholim is a mitzva obligation, even if the secular state calls it volunteering.
1,
“Where does it say you can’t go “Kulah shopping” Muttar is mussar assur is assur.”
That’s an oversimplification. Why keep halachos at all? To serve Hashem. Should we serve Hashem like we love Him and want to do the best we can, or like the halachos are loathsome to us and we seek every out we can get to lessen our burden of having a G-d, C”V? Sometimes the act of asking a shaila when we know the potential answers, by putting the decision outside of ourselves, is a means to better serve Hashem. Shopping for the answer we want is better than not asking a shaila at all, but does it show more of a desire to do Hashem’s will, or our own?
jackk,
“I refer to my previous post on this topic.”
Ok, I’ll get to that in a sec.
“Everyone here commenting lived through the Mageifah of Covid, which is why I am surprised that people can be so sure of themselves on either side.”
I’m expressing my own opinions based on that experience – not sure where I stated that I’m so sure of myself.
“If you are going to call the measures “draconian” or “mesirah” ,expelled, bullied, fired – you have already taken a stand on the issue .”
I think the vast majority of people who lived through the lockdowns, closures, mandates, etc. would agree the policies were draconian. Unless they liked staying at home, waiting an hour in icy wind on line to get into the grocery store, davening b’yechidus and having schools closed. The disagreement arises on whether these draconian measures were necessary, right, valid, legal, effective, harmful, and whether any consideration was given to alternatives or mitigations.
As far as mesirah – a Jew calling non-Jewish authorities on a synagogue is straight up mesirah. And given that the penalty was a citation and fine, I don’t see how even a twisted pikuach nefesh argument could be applied for making that call. Also, do you deny that people were expelled from their shuls, schools, or jobs based on Covid policies? Do you deny that people were bullied? Maybe your opinion is that the expulsions and bullying were necessary and good, but to argue on whether it actually happened or not? Lets stay in reality.
From your first post you referenced:
“I agree that there should be a auditing of what went on during covid. But because we know more about covid now, it is too easy to look back and second guess people for their errors and inactions done while the pandemic was raging. “
Much of the criticism of these policies is not being made now with the benefit of hindsight, but was made early on during the pandemic and was suppressed. And the criticism goes way beyond the aspects of the response that require knowledge of the virus itself. Knowing whether Covid is transmitted by aerosols, droplets, or from contact with surfaces doesn’t inform us on whether it’s a good idea to bully, scapegoat, deceive, or ignore the impacts of policies.
Yabia Omer,
“For example, giving a Hechsher to water that comes directly from filtered water pipes (zero chashash for grapes, etc.). Have you ever heard of “kosher” water??”
Is bottled water not heated at some point during the process? Even so, it’s true that plain bottled water does not require a hechsher. But why are you ragging on the kashrus agencies when it’s the bottling companies’ decision to get the hechsher on their products?
“Another example is a Hashgacha requiring the food manufacturer to use ingredients/coponents only with THEIR Hashgacha. In other words, Hashgacha Gimmel requiring a muffin manufacturer to use flour, sugar etc etc with Gimmel, and not from equally-reliable Daled. That is not Halacha, that is money.”
Ah yes, those Jooz and their money. Can you think of other reasons a hashgacha might limit the ingredients to products they can personally vouch for?
Yabia Omer,
“50% of the decisions, operations and Hashkafa of most hashgachas have nothing to do with Halacha. You guys know that right?”
86% of the statistics thrown out on the CR are completely made up. You guys know that right?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“see the starting post, where common demands accountability for covid protection measures. He possibly modified his position now to only blame those who “terrorize people in other communities”, which is a welcome adjustment.”
There’s no stira. When the OP called for accountability for the draconian mandates themselves it referred to governmental bodies that enacted those policies. When the OP called for accountability for those who committed mesira, expelled, bullied, etc. it was in reference to members of our community who did those things.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“So, you can’t call people names for holding by it.”
What names did he call people who held by “being careful”?
Yserbius123,
“Besides, “his” pandemic decisions were the unanimous decisions of virtually all of the several dozen Rabbonim in his community.”
Unanimous and “virtually all” are not the same thing.
Yserbius123,
“I define careless in way that [Always_Ask_Questions] described his/her shul.”
But he didn’t define it. He just stated they were careless. Would you say the shul I described in my post was careless?
Yserbius123,
“Are you saying that you don’t believe that a shul exists where the klal was careless about Corona during the height of the pandemic?”
How do you define careless? I know of a shul that closed a little while after Purim 2020, and then reopened in time for Shavuos. Seating was spread out so tables were 6ft apart, doors to the lobby and exits to outside from the beis medrash were left open for increased ventilation, attendance stayed within the government-imposed limits, hand sanitizer was placed on every table, boxes of masks were provided, and signs were posted directing people to wear masks indoors. But the shul did not actively throw anyone out who wasn’t wearing a mask, so some daveners wore, some did not. And no drastic changes to the normal manner of the davening were made (e.g., having the baal koreh take all of the aliyos) This shul was maligned intensely within the community for daring to reopen, and for being “careless” once other places started reopening. Some mosrim took it upon themselves to harass the shul with repeated calls to the health department, including one made on Shabbos intended to disrupt the davening.
smerel,
“I was being sarcastic.”
Sorry, that went completely over my head.
smerel,
“what about the destruction to the sacred belief in science”
I have to object strongly to this notion. Sacred belief? Since when is science sacred? It is a systematic method of study of the physical world around us, pursued by human beings and subject to the limitations of human beings. And what does belief have to do with science? What you are referring to as Science is a modern day avoda zara.
“those who tried to control us using the lines of “follow the science” or “pro health” policies about what turned out to be junk science with the censored and marginalized voices being correct after all? American trust in scientists plummeted like a rock after covid.”
With the astonishing amount of conflict of interest present in the profit driven corporate-governmental health apparatus, American trust should rightly plummet.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“In one shul I daven, there are people who were mostly careless. I feel sometimes that I am at a smoker’s club as every couple of minutes you hear a chronic cough, mostly young men. In another shul, where people preferred vaccines to natural immunity and this happens way less. “
Putting aside that I find it hard to believe you personally would go into such a shul, given your singular obsession with the R rate and that you once posted that you spent most of the pandemic so isolated that you didn’t even really have much experience with persistent mask wearing, I find it odd that you maintain a double standard on usage of anecdotes. When Syag Lchochma observed that the shul near her that had the least restrictive Covid policies had no Covid fatalities, you dismissed it out of hand as anecdotal. But here you happily throw out an anecdote. But it’s not even a good anecdote, as your observations could be biased in numerous ways. For example, your ears were likely more attuned to coughing in the shul you deemed to be less safe. Or perhaps both shuls had 3 coughers in attendance but at one shul they were right behind you and at the other they were across the room. Perhaps you attended one shul in the summer when coughing was less prevalent overall, and the other in the fall when coughing was more prevalent overall.
Shimon Nodel,
“No, he’s supposed to go outside and look for three more people to complete the minyan, talking freely while doing so, then come back and say yishtabach and immediately start barchu without waiting for his three captives to catch up”
1. It is permissible to interrupt pesukei d’zimra to prevent a loss, to respond to a greeting, etc. I think attempting to secure a minyan for shacharis would fall into this category of permissible interruptions.
2. Captives? That’s quite the negative outlook.
3. What about tircha d’tzibbur? I don’t think it would be permissible to wait.Always_Ask_Questions,
“At this point, he wonders – based on reading YWN – whether he is “frum” enough and wonders whether he needs to spend an extra 30 minutes of drive to pick up chalav isroel yogurt and milk, so that he will either learn less, has one less surgery, or disregard either the wife or one of the kids. What would be your advice?”
My advice would be, if a person truly believes that his derech is correct and he is following it to the best of his ability, then why wouldn’t he have enough confidence in his derech that a CR thread would rattle him so much? I seriously doubt your hypothetical accomplished and busy man would actually be rattled by anything on the CR. But if he is, he should assess why. Did he read something he never heard or considered before, and is concerned he’s missing something halachically? He should look into it and perhaps ask a shaila of a rav who knows him well. Is he really so sure that his chosen derech is correct? That’s the most likely reason he’d get rattled and think about making irrational changes to his life (the yetzer hara works on everything). But if he is indeed sure and still gets rattled, maybe he lacks the confidence or assertiveness to be able to deal with others who have different ideas in a healthy way?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“My mesorah, going back to Rambam, says that Y will only get schar if hashgaha made him unable to earn his own living. Otherwise, the whole reward goes to Z. Otherwise, it is not logical to spuriously decide that one does not want to support himself.”
If you want to invent a polemical “mesorah”, that’s your business, but maybe leave the Rambam out of it.
Yabia Omer,
“Is the strict opinion always the better opinion? Is being Meikil inherently worse?”
No, of course not, and there are numerous examples that can be brought where almost everyone here agrees. Based on the thread title, however, you seem to want a divisive discussion. So which halachos were you thinking of? AAQ has already filled in your gap with his favorite.
Participant,
“But the level of questions and skepticism aimed at candidate demanding they defend their physical health or stating they’re too old is very distasteful and extremely antithetical to Torah values. [I’m obviously not referring to someone’s mental abilities.]”
Some of the noise is political, each side throwing as much mud as they can at the other. Some of the noise is based on ageism (ok Boomer), and the lack of respect that American culture in general shows towards elders is certainly antithetical to Torah values. However, some of the concerns are due to what the electorate views as the president or other elected officials’ roles are. For example, the ability to absorb and process complex information and make good decisions is the most important role of a president, but presidents are also expected to go out and “sell” their agendas. This role typically requires high energy and endurance, and good speaking skills.
Participant,
“I reread my post several times and it is quite clear. Quite stunning and horrifying how utterly stupid these posters who can’t comprehend it is.”
I read your OP as well, and I doubt it was as clear as you think. And even if you wrote the most cogent post in the history of the Internet, does that give you the right to insult people just because they don’t respond the way you want them to?
AviraDeArah,
“from what I’ve read, there isn’t a clear understanding that bridges the gap between an abusive incident(or several) and the deep, hellish trauma that follows it, especially in non-violent circumstances.”
I’m guessing you’ve not read any accounts from victims themselves – many are quite articulate. And behavior can be violent even if it doesn’t leave a black eye.
DaMoshe,
“A baal teshuvah, whose father doesn’t want him to become frum?”
A baal teshuva should acquire a rav for himself and in that way learn a mesorah.
AviraDeArah,
“It’s not a pasuk in chumash.”
Wait, what?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Please show me halochos that say that being direct with people is always the right thing to do.”
Oooh a two-fer of argumentative fallacies in one sentence! This is both a straw man and shifting the burden of proof. Please show me where I said that being direct with people is “always the right thing to do”, and then show me halachos that say if your fellow is sinning, you should just watch and see how it goes for him.
“But let’s say the parent tried it 3 times already and the kid just evades it … [t]hen, yes, let them have their innocent fun and monitor for the signs that something bad is happening.”
Wow, at that point it is certainly not innocent fun, no matter what they’re actually doing online.
“Are you afraid that this violate R Gershom herem on reading letters? Then, just monitor IP addresses or inform the kid electronically as businesses do: “this device (network) is subject to monitoring”. “
Maybe, but on a more simple level, children deserve respect too. Even if you tell a child that their device is subject to monitoring, if they evade a clear rule and nothing happens for a good long while, they will assume they “got away with it” and their activities are not actively monitored. And if they find out 6 months later that you’ve been reading their chats, searches, etc. and never told them, that could humiliate them.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I am trying to analyze expected outcome. If the parents are “one trick ponies” and are continuing using same approach, then you should expect that and evaluate whether your information will do any good for anyone.”
This is simply a reiteration of the point I questioned. It is presumptuous to assume that an outsider can forecast expected outcomes with any degree of confidence. Good luck forecasting outcomes in one’s own home! It is disrespectful to the parents to declare them “one trick ponies”, and to withhold information because you personally don’t like their rules or how they’re enforced effectively disempowers them and undermines their authority. Of course this is not referring to abusive situations, but a parent locking down or confiscating a computer or phone is not abusive.
This is not to say I advocate for outsiders to just go run and tattle on children for anything they do. I agree with you that a rav should be consulted for how to proceed in this situation. An outside observer may not have all of the facts. One must be careful regarding lashon hara even in a parent/child relationship, and tochacha must be tailored to the individual receiving it, and must be done out of love. But to davka withhold information from parents because you don’t like their stance on electronics and consider them to be unthinking oafs who would just double down on the rules you don’t like is not a valid factor in this decision.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I would ask a _competent_ Rav whether to inform the parents.”
Agreed.
“On the other hand, they are failing and it is not clear that doubling-down will help.”
So if you feel the parents aren’t perfect, it justifies disempowering them? And who then gets the responsibility for the child? The state? The child himself?
“For example, if kids break through filters on a computer and parents discover it: if they close the break or confront the kid, he will find another way and parents will never know about it. It may be a better idea to monitor the break and see whether this is benign or not.”
You think surreptitiously spying on a child’s rule-breaking online activities is a better parenting approach than direct conversation about what’s going on? I can’t say I agree.
“So, in this case, maybe a Rav and friends can help the kid using some other approach instead of encouraging parents to follow the path that is failing. For example, maybe the kid has questions that need to be answered, or he needs more warmth and understanding.”
Perhaps, but it is the role of the parents to make that decision, is it not?
Gadolhadorah,
“UJM/Syag: With respect, I would 110% support intervention with the parents or others in a life/death matter.”
Well, I’m glad you at least support not letting a kid literally die.
”
don’t touch the eitz hadas since you might come to eat from it
B’tayavon”
Explain.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“many, maybe not all, income based benefits require or at least presume that the person gets them only if/when he is not able to find work.”
Not true. Most benefits are based on income thresholds, which is not the same thing as unemployment. Many households eligible for benefits are indeed working/earning incomes, but the amounts are below the qualifying threshold. See my first response to our $12,000/year tangent above.
“2nd problem – Y’D, not just Rambam, paskening not to take non-Jewish charity with wording “not to depend on people”. See precise loshon above.”
This would seem to also apply to child tax credits, transportation benefits, etc. as well, so it does not answer why you see income based benefits as distinct from these other benefits.
“Mu inartful/exaggerated communist comparison was about people taking funds and mis-directing them to the purposes the givers did not intend.”
I’m not sure you’re applying correct reasoning here. If TANF, WIC, SNAP, Medicaid, et al. benefits are used to provide for the material and medical needs of a family, then they are being directed appropriately. Why the family qualifies for the benefits is not relevant to the purpose of the benefits – just that the family does. An example of misdirected benefits would be someone with a job collecting unemployment, which is fraud.
Your focus in on Torah learners, that they shouldn’t be learning if they collect benefits they are entitled to, but your arguments can be also used to tell janitors and cashiers that they should not marry and have children, or tell wives that they cannot stay home with the kids, etc.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“This is no different, conceptually, from the communist shitah that they know better than the property owners how to manage it. Government provide funds for English textbooks, and we should take those. They provide transportation and let’s take it, and government has no hesaron if students have Torah classes in addition to English, as cost of transportation is the same. Government gives out child credit, so we can take it. This is different from government (presumably reflecting common sentiment) provide funds to help poor people”
All of these examples are government collecting taxes and distributing funds as they see fit, whether or not the taxpayer agrees. The communist smear can be applied to each and every one of them, but you declare them “kosher.” What makes income based benefits different?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“But I looked up above and I stated at minimum thta I am OK with in-laws and gevirim supporting learning and you stam responded that you don’t believe me. “
I was basing that on a previous conversation on the CR regarding in-laws being compelled to support. It’s very possible that I was having that debate with someone else (maybe CTLAWYER or Gadolhadorah) and my memory erroneously ascribed their posts to you. I apologize.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“right, and this is why I enjoy talking with them.”
But you barely responded to them.
“Maybe, they saw this post as a polemic piece and thought that the person who asked a question is the type that gets impressed by Rambams.”
Exactly what I suggested earlier in the conversation.
“And I went to their site specifically looking for a kosher lomdishe place – a business beis din in the most famoous yeshiva. So, maybe this is just a mismatch. “
I don’t think you’re going to find much of the lomdishe learning of Lakewood on Web sites.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Right now, unfortunately, I do not stop at that.”
“I am afraid that I would not (and most other people are probably in the same position).”
Why then would you advocate for a “shitta” that you openly acknowledge that you cannot follow, nor do you expect the vast majority of the olam to be able to follow? The end result of your advice to “Lakewood” would be a tremendous loss of Torah.
“As with everyone, I get my masorah from my Parents and Teachers. Most of them encouraged independent thinking and asking questions.”
So it’s not that your parents and teachers told you that your family/community shitta is to hold vehemently to a specific Rambam in opposition to how others pasken, but that you can be an “independent thinker” and pasken for yourself?
besalel,
“Are we ok with the state of education in our yeshivos?”
This and your subsequent questions would seem to be better answered by the parents of yeshiva students regarding their specific yeshiva than a nebulous “we” regarding nebulous “yeshivos”. Part of having an adult conversation about a topic is avoiding unhelpful generalizations. The quality of education offered in a yeshiva depends on the yeshiva, and that’s not a brand new issue that cropped up in this generation. And that’s not what the NYT article was attacking: yeshivos that opt to minimize secular studies by design.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“so you are saying that a person who expresses himself to these mitzvos is somehow an inferior person, provided he “only” learns 70% of his available time?!”
Nobody has said that as far as I have read. Do you feel as though full time learners look down on you, and that’s why you want to clap back at them? I’m not sure you realize this, but I think everybody who is arguing with you works part or full time. And your vision of Lakewood as a whole “group” full of people learning full time and mooching off the government in perpetuity, and only deigning to teach badly if their learning doesn’t go well, is fantasy. Most learners start working, many after only a few years of learning in kollel.
Here’s where I’m coming from. Torah learning is precious and vital, and there is no comparison between learning an hour a day, or half a day, to full immersion in learning. I say that even though I unfortunately didn’t learn in a yeshiva and I work a full time job. If we are truly concerned about the klal, we should do what we can to support those learning to prolong their learning as much as possible. Just as learners get a share in the mitzvos of honest weights, paying workers on time, etc. via learning those halachos and their details, we workers can get a share in their limud Torah by supporting their learning. Learners deserve our hakaras hatov, not our derision.
Re: Benefits – their intention is to foster healthy families and communities, and inasmuch as Torah learning is the backbone of a healthy Jewish community, than if the benefits help Jews learn Torah than they are fulfilling their purpose even in eyes of the government. Just like if benefits help Native Americans maintain their traditions, help students finish grad school while raising a family, etc. Yes there are those who are politically opposed to benefits for various reasons (redistribution of wealth is bad, the gap between benefits and a livable wage creates dependency, benefits buy votes, etc.), and others who oppose them due to racism or antisemitism and a perception that they disproportionately help the groups they hate. If someone doesn’t like it for political reasons, then his fight is with the laws, not with his fellow citizens, and he can express himself via voting, supporting candidates who hold like him, or running for office himself. If someone’s a racist or antisemite, than whatever, I’m not concerned about chillul Hashem in his eyes – he already hates Hashem. If the benefits go away he’ll find something else to be upset about regarding Jews.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“how many times I need to clarify my question: which acharonim allow using non-Jewish support system for poor people in order to learn – and not just for one person but for whole groups.”
You keep moving the goalposts. You spent much of this thread decrying learners taking benefits they are entitled to by law by erroneously calling it tzedaka in order to bring in your Rambam. And when AviraDeArah blows this out of the water and shows that later poskim permit even taking mamash tzedaka for learning, you suddenly become a convert to the benefits are not tzedaka cause, and create a new category called “non-Jewish support system for poor people” and demand we bring sources to support THAT! This is rather disingenuous.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I would expect an esteemed center in the capitol of Jewish learning to be better at quoting sources than a humble internet poster.”
If this discussion is going to veer into lashon hara, we need to stop it right now. Just because they didn’t answer the question in the way you wanted doesn’t mean they are bad at lomdus. As AviraDeArah and DaasYochid both stated, the Rambam makes two statements that appear contradictory, and the halacha does not follow like you.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“My suggestion is for someone to work a little to earn for modest living. According to my shita, one should not then go take benefits.”
Your shita? I doubt it. Are you living off of $12,000 a year to maximize your learning? And since when did you get the authority to create shittos?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“There are people with strong opinions that beings “on the dole” while able to work is shameful and there are those who want to make everyone comfortable”
“People” meaning you? And we don’t live our lives based on omigosh what will the gentiles think. There are people with strong opinions that mila is mutilation. Should we stop performing bris mila to look good to them?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I was shocked, shocked, and saddened, that Vaad could quote Rambam selectively. Maybe the question mentioned the other Rambam and it got edited out, or they presume that everyone knows the other Rambam.”
The question was based on your favorite Rambam, so why would they need to rehash? And why are you shocked and saddened when selectively quoting the Rambam is exactly what you are doing?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“This is an important point. I understand your feelings but not your logic.”
What about my logic do you not understand?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“You don’t think this is sufficient for a person who wants to learn. And we presume here that the wife volunteers to agree to that lifestyle and even works. [snip longer digression about wife preferences]”
That was not my point, and the rest of your post was an unrelated digression. My point was that $12,000 a year is an insufficient income to raise a family from qualifying for benefits.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“but there is also aspect of dependency on government. as R Shach paskened when Begin became prime-minister – do not take too much gov assistance and dismantle your own financial network. A different government will come, take this away, and you will have no funds. Could the same danger exist in US? If another Republican wave comes in and does another welfare-type reform, limiting assistance to volunteer non-workers, would the system survive?”
I think this is the best argument against using public funds. I believe the government money being discussed in Israel referred to funding for schools. Many in Israel go to Yeshivos that don’t receive government funds, but the families themselves get the child allowances, etc. As far as the U.S. government programs – contrary to Reagan’s welfare queen polemic, the programs help families, but are not typically the ikar of their parnassa. So if they went away, things would become much more challenging, but iyH the “system” wouldn’t collapse.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“There seems to be 3 hoops you need to jump thru: 1) learn by taking someone else’s money. You say, we are not machmir like Rambam, Shoin, be meikel. Even as Lakewood Vaad tries to use Rambam. But this is just 1 step”
As I said in a previous post, the Lakewood vaad cites the Rambam as a rebuke to those who try and turn the Rambam into a sword against Torah learning. And you can repeat over and over “machmir like Rambam” and “be meikel”, but the repetition does not make it true. Your position is the meikel one. There seems to be no hoop here at all. Next.
“2) … YD has a more general statement about not relying on people. Here I am more curious about halachic process rather than the end result. It seems like a reasonable sevora that as we live in the state that provides equal access to these services to everyone and we pay equal taxes, we should be able to use those services.”
We’re not discussing relying on people, but on government programs that the citizens pay into with their taxes. You should avoid utilizing public roads, as that is also “relying on people”. No hoop here either. Next.
“3) and this is my biggest difficulty – can we use those public sources for poor in order to support learning.”
If you qualify for the programs, absolutely. See it rather as supporting healthy and stable families and children.
So far the hotdog is pretty tasty.
“I checked SNAP in a couple of states and it seems to require actually looking for work.”
And I responded many posts ago that there are exceptions to this requirement that are quite apropos to most Jewish families, and you ignored it.
“[ that is not in the times or places where we need to protect our society from shmad and such]”
That is certainly this time and place.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I am not sure why is everyone so emotional here .. So many poskim discuss the issue, suddenly I am a hater by trying to get some clarity. “
You are coming from a starting point that does not seem to be Torah based, in fact acknowledged with, “[m]aybe I am biased by Republican thinking.” In your “halachic” arguments you set the arrow in the place that you want it and then draw a target around it using a throw-random-stuff-at-the-wall-and-maybe-I-can-hack-together-a-cogent-sounding-argument approach. Your responses to others make frequent use of subject changes rather than directly addressing their points. When discussing the Lakewood community you shift way too easily into breezy assumptions of illegal activity. If you were named Jim Jones I’d say you were antisemitic.
As far as your assertion that you can go against the modern poskim with the Rambam because the Lakewood vaad itself cited the Rambam – do you realize that the vaad specifically cited the Rambam there as a rebuke to those who abuse the Rambam to hate on full-time Torah learning?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“now much time would it take for a smart person to work to substitute for welfare benefits, let’s skip medicare. To earn $1,000 at $20/hour, you need 50 hours a month, or 1.5 work days per week. I think one can be a full-time learner and carry that big of a load. “
$12,000 per year is below the poverty line for even a single person.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I don’t think one needs a BA to get a job, I am sure anyone capable of learning a blatt of gemora can do some productive job.”
Yet in a previous debate you bemoaned that full-time learning sets people up to make less money or to be herded into teaching for which they may not be a good fit. Have you changed your mind on that, or are you just making whatever argument that pops into your head against full-time learning, however inconsistent it is with your previous positions?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I would say – take it back to your LOR to discuss, especially in a case where you are involved financially. Even if you are t’Ch yourself.”
It doesn’t seem so polite to go and argue or rehash a psak your LOR gave you, whether it’s l’chumra or l’heter, absent a change in actual circumstances. Don’t you think your LOR was aware of the different opinions? If not, why would you rely on him to pasken your shaila?
Also, this is a big departure in your stance from a previous debate we had where you seemed almost allergic to the idea of asking your LOR a shaila about skipping kaddishes that are regularly said during davening. Have you changed your mind on that, or are you inconsistent in your positions on asking shailos for some reason?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I looked up current NJ SNAP rules and they also mentioned some employment search requirements, listing groups (like college students) that are exempt.”
I believe caretakers of young children and students in school (not just colleges) are also exempt from SNAP work requirements. WIC and Medicaid do not have work requirements as far as I’m aware.
“Hopefully, in ten years, there will be enough workers to support all slackers”
Are you implying that full-time learners are slackers?
AviraDeArah,
“They’re aware that people are paid in cash for such services, and they don’t realistically expect people to report it.”
I believe they do expect people to report it as self-employed income if (minus expenses) you net more than $400 cash in the year.
“rebbeim often work as 1099 employees “
Basically regarded as independent contractors?
“file for parsonage exemptions”
That one’s outside my wheelhouse.
AviraDeArah,
“i didn’t know you believe all homeschooling to be truancy and neglect.”
I think she was making a polemical example to AAQ that parallels his attitudes towards full time learners, not stating her own personal views.