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Aishes Chayil,
Even if the benefit of learning of another’s humiliation in order to discourage potential future dishonesty outweighs the real and now damage caused by spreading the story, it should be done while leaving out the identities of the couple involved. Spreading the video seems equivalent to “naming names” when there is no toeles to do so, since somebody viewing it is bound to know the family involved.
Squeak,
I very much agree. The more the video is viewed, the more public and prominent it becomes, and the more it spreads. I would not click on it, why would I want to watch my brethren humiliated, whether or not they were right or wrong? I feel flushed just thinking about it.
Wolf,
I am guessing that Mod80 did not mean that you were satirizing the Rambam or Rav Miller, heaven forbid, but rather posters to an Internet forum whom you perceive are quick to condemn someone they never met.
I have read statements from religious Zionists that condemn Jews for living outside of Eretz Yisroel when there is a Jewish state in power. They implied that Jews living outside of Eretz Yisroel now are over the mitzvah of settling Eretz Yisroel and would not enjoy living in Eretz Yisroel at the coming of Moshiach. On the other side, as you wrote earlier, are those who condemn anyone who supports the Medina in any way. It seems that no matter who one is, there will always be someone else somewhere in this world condemning him to Gehenim. Even if this person were to uphold every single mitzvah in a way that is pleasing to every single Jew, the religious non-Jews of the world would condemn him still. What’s ultimately important is what Hashem thinks of us, not people.
I personally think that you are misinterpreting the Rambam (and I have the feeling that you would agree with me), and possibly misapplying the words of Rav Miller, who was trying to warn the kehilla of the dangers of television to our soul, not pointing to specific people and saying, “You sir, Plonie, are bound for Gehenim.” Hashem gave us a conduit to connect to Him and our sages best know that conduit. What Hashem does with us after we die is entirely out of our hands.
ROB – Would your definition of “really offensive” include all forms of Loshon Hara?
Wolf,
If a person has no chelek in Olam Haba, it doesn’t necessarily mean eternal hellfire. It might mean that the person rejected his neshama so completely in favor of animalistic physicality, that he only “exists” physically. So death is the end.
PS – Are you baiting certain people on this list to condemn you? Why?
Jam,
I am trying to remember to keep a bit of cash on hand at all times when out for just that purpose. Once my wife was approached by a woman panhandling on a subway car. She didn’t have any small denomination cash on hand, so she gave the woman $20. Several months later, my wife was riding the subway again, and the same woman got into the car and started to panhandle. When she saw my wife, she gave her a big smile and did not hold out the cup. She remembered.
WIY,
I understand and respect your sentiment that Jews should be very mindful of acting like mentschen, because we are to be a light to the nations. I think it is possible, however, that you are mischaracterizing some of your observations of Jewish/Non-Jewish interactions as an anti-Goy sentiment on the part of the Jews, when in fact, the behavior is more a reflection of U.S. culture in general, particularly urban culture.
Take the doorman example. You are more attuned to Jews, being Jewish yourself, so you notice well when a Jew ignores the doorman. However, I would venture to guess that the vast majority of non-Jews also pass that same doorman without so much as a good morning as well. I think part of the reason is a great need for personal privacy in the U.S., especially when the population density is so high. Casual greetings can feel like an invasion of privacy, or personal thoughts, or your cell phone conversation, etc., and everyone dwells within his or her own mental box. I don’t think this is a good thing, but I wouldn’t use it to accuse Jews of being anti-Goy. For example, doesn’t the Jew who ignored the doorman also ignore other Jews passing by on the street? That has been my experience when visiting New York.
One final comment on Jewish behavior being blamed for anti-Semitism. I once entered a Wal Mart in a very small town in the deep South. No Jewish presence there whatsoever. And oh was I stared at! And not friendly stares either. These were people who probably never met an Orthodox Jew before, yet they already felt hostility towards me. The unfortunate truth is that much of the stereotype of Jewish anti-Gentile sentiment arises not from the truth, but due to the anti-Jewish libels written in the religious texts of the majority religion in this country.
apushatayid,
Unfortunately your challenge is not quite a fair one, because very few details have been provided, other than “treif restaurant” and “non-Jewish party.” Obviously when you brought this to your Rov you provided him with far greater detail than you brought here.
I would like to bring to the table two thoughts that I have yet to see presented in this discussion:
1.) A Rov tells a person what to do based on how the halacha applies to the person’s specific situation, which is often very complex. Therefore, rather than bashing somebody’s Rov when his decision sounds surprising to us, we should realize that we do not have the full picture that the Rov was given. We might not even have the full picture of what the Rov said. For example, apushatayid stated that he was at the party for 45 minutes… no wedding party lasts 45 minutes, so obviously there are details in his case that we don’t know. That said, based on what was provided (which is noted to be incomplete), it sounds like a possible M”A issue to me because of the treif restaurant. How is it problematic even if no Jew sees? Imagine if one of the partiers is a boss at a company with Jewish employees. He later asks the Jewish employees to meet him at the same treif restaurant for an after hours social event, and when the Jewish employees say they can’t come, the boss says, “well just the other week at a party I saw an Orthodox Jew there…”
2.) When a Rov tells us what to do in a specific situation, we cannot take that decision and apply it to different situations ourselves. In other words, what a Rov might say regarding the non-Jewish parents of a ger who dropped in on Yom Tov cannot be applied to inviting non Jewish co-workers for a Yom Tov seuda. Taken to an extreme to make the point, if a Rov tells someone not to fast on the 10th of Teves because he has a serious infection, that person cannot say the following year, “my Rov said that I can eat on the 10th of Teves!”
Set up a video camera on top of the TV to record yourself while you watch (with no sound), and then play back the video and think about how much time you spent sitting and staring.
I read through the posts in this thread with interest, as I grew up Conservative and B”H am now frum. Due to my experience in both worlds, I can understand the sentiments both of the frum posters to this topic and of the Conservative posters. I have a few things I’d like to add to this discussion, if possible:
1.) Unfortunately, Orthodox Judaism is denigrated by Conservative Jews, who view it as, G-d forbid, backwards, strict, anti-women, antiquated, whatever else you could throw at it. These misconceptions form a real barrier for those Conservatives who are yearning for a closer relationship to Hashem. I was pulled towards frum Judaism for as long as I can remember. I had frum relatives, and when I was a child, we would visit them on Pesach for the second seder at a hotel in Miami. While there, I had a strong sense that I was in the right place, and when we left, I felt a strong sense of loss. At the same time, I felt terrified of the Orthodox Jews there, that they were staring at me, that I was doing everything wrong, that they looked down on me. Now that I am one of “those” Orthodox Jews, thank G-d I can look back and realize that it wasn’t the seder participants who were making me uncomfortable as much as my own soul. We rightfully have strong feelings about the Conservative and Reform movements. Instead of advocating an elevation towards the Torah’s ideals, they tear the Torah down to their congregants’ comfort level, or reject it entirely in the case of Reform. At the same time, we must be sure to interact sensitively with our non Orthodox brethren, because they really do not understand us or what true Torah observance is all about, and if we can do even a small thing to change their misconceptions about Orthodoxy, they might come closer to Hashem.
2.) By far the biggest stumbling block that Conservatives and Reform have towards Orthodoxy is the perceived inequality of women. A big part of the reason they have this perception is a lack of understanding of a true Torah observant lifestyle. In the Conservative movement, everything was centered on the synagogue. Coming to synagogue = good Jew, not coming to synagogue = bad Jew. Most of my friends growing up did next to nothing Jewishly at home. The kippa came off right after services, and it was off to the mall, movies, restaurant, whatever. So basically, to remove access to anything involving the synagogue to a non-Orthodox Jewish woman is equivalent to removing their Judaism, because there’s nothing going on outside of the synagogue. The best way to remove this stumbling block is to reveal the truth, that authentic Torah observance envelops every aspect of your life at all times. Getting an aliya at shul is very nice, but davening is the ikar, as well as Torah study, Shabbos, hosting guests, giving tzedaka, improving our middos, and everything else that we do as frum Jews. As a Conservative teenager, I was very interested in reading from the Torah, reading the haftarah, leading services. Since I have become frum, I have yet to do that (I am a man), but I feel no loss of connection because my everyday “routine” is so filled with the Yiddishkeit I was trying to express by reading the haftarah in the Conservative synagogue. If I do read haftarah at shul in the future, it would be like extra icing on the cake, not the essential main course.
Hello,
I almost never write posts, but I have followed some of the conversations here on YWN. I decided to write this post because I was a little surprised that the discussion of “al tarbe sicha im haisha” in this thread appears to have broken down into two camps working to get around the mishna. What I mean by this is that, unfortunately, many people seem uncomfortable with what the mishna says, so they either dismiss the mishna as good words but not binding, or state that it is binding, but modern women have somehow changed over the years so we now have a heter to talk to our wives more than we should.
It is my thinking that the answer may be not to work around the mishna’s seemingly explosive statement, but to examine the statement directly with the assumption that the Tanna had built a bayis ne’eman b’Yisroel with his wife, and had a good and healthy marriage relationship. Here’s a few statements and questions:
1.) The ikar of this mishna is that a man not talk “in excess” with a woman. The Tanna brings the statement that we are not to talk in excess with our own wife to demonstrate his argument with a kal v’chomer that we really should not do this with another’s wife. My question is: if we know not to talk “in excess” with our own wife, why the extra warning about another’s wife?
2.) This passage comes immediately after a statement that our homes should be open to guests.
3.) What is talking “in excess”, anyway?
Ultimately, I believe Hashem wants us to build a strong home and family, and this involves and has always involved constant and meaningful sharing and communication between husband and wife. Therefore, I think that talking “in excess” does not include this kind of home building communication. I think what the Tanna is getting at is that mindless chatter, small-talk, is the no-no. This type of talk does not bring people closer together in a real way, rather it can create a false sense of chemistry without the participants really getting to know each other. I think the reason our context is a situation inside a home with guests is that the potential for chatter is greater then. When guests are over, a man making a lot of small-talk with another man’s wife can CV”S cause severe shalom-bayis issues for both families. We don’t normally chatter nonsense with our wives if we have a good relationship, our talk goes much deeper than that. Why build a fake connection with our wives when we can build a real one with true sharing and communication? And we surely shouldn’t form any connection, real or fake, with another’s wife.
We all know that forming a real connection with another’s wife is a serious aveirah. I think the misha states “al tarbe sicha im haisha” because some people might mistakenly believe that small-talk doesn’t form any connection. Recently, I have heard about terrible online swindles in the news, where foreign crooks swindle lonely, vulnerable women into transferring large amounts of money to them. How do they do this? They form a false connection with the women through excessive small talk. They chatter for hours online, and the woman thinks she has developed a real, deep bond, when in reality, there is nothing there at all. The chatter obviously has a lot of power.
I think that the Tanna is telling us that we should have a real relationship with our wives, with meaningful communication. And a man who would threaten that real bond by making small-talk with another woman, truly causes evil to himself.
Please feel free to correct any errors I have made, I would be delighted to hear other thoughts.
All the best!
Squeak: “First of all, we start these things at night…”
V’sain tal umatar may begin at night, but you can’t daven Musaf at night!
Quote: “As a matter of fact, we receive with disgrace anyone who has been a member of Hitler’s youth movement and has served as an officer in the Nazi army during WWII, during which six hundred of our people were brutally murdered as the Vatican and its leaders idly stood by.”
Six hundred?? That’s off by a factor of 10,000! Six million. Editor/Moderators: is it possible you could make the correction?
Thanks!
Flatbush27: When the Beis Hamikdash is standing, all of the males must travel to Yerushalayim to make the offerings… so I’m sure there would be a lot of families staying in Yerushalayim to eat their Pesach and Chagigah korbonos on the seder night. Wouldn’t that make travel intrinsic to proper Pesach observance? My family and I prefer to stay at our house for Pesach personally for reasons of peace and expense, but we cannot say that travelling to do the seder elsewhere is not in the “spirit” of things!
Teen: As an object with mass (like us) accelerates towards the speed of light, the mass increases exponentially (think of mass as a distortion of space-time). Therefore, to keep accelerating, more energy is required (takes more force to accelerate something more massive). As the object approaches the speed of light, mass approaches infinity…
ywnmember:
Without being sure of exactly what you are wanting to do, I’ll just throw out a couple of ideas…
1) If you’re wanting to do a photo slideshow, put each photo on its own slide, then click on the “Slide Show” pull-down menu, and choose “Slide Transition…” You will see options for adding neat animations for the slide transitions (fades, checkers, blinds, etc.)
2) If you want the slides to automatically advance (without the viewer clicking to advance), then in that same menu, look down at “Advance Slide” and uncheck “On Mouse Click” and check “Automatically After” and choose how many seconds you want. You can do this with one slide, or click “Apply to all slides” at the bottom. WARNING: This will also apply whatever transition effect you have chosen to all slides as well…so if you’ve put a unique one on each slide, they’ll get overwritten. My advice would be to do the automatically after option first, apply to all slides, and then choose the unique transitions you want.
I hope this information is helpful!
brooklyn19: The “C” in “JC” is not actually a name, but a Greek word equivalent to “anointed” or “Messiah.” Therefore, rabbis engaged in counter-missionary efforts (e.g., Rabbi Tovia Singer of Outreach Judaism) advise Jews to never use the “C” word at all when referring to the Christian god, because we would be in effect honoring him with the title that the Christians claim he has. In his lectures, Rabbi Singer generally refers to him as “Jesus of Nazereth” and the like, but even that is in the context of his work drawing Jews away from missionaries. I’m not sure if it is appropriate to use either name at all in general conversation.
lesschumras: Christians persecuted Jews both on Christmas and Easter (e.g., the Warsaw Pogrom of 1881 began on Dec. 25). Truthfully, Christians never needed a holiday to attack Jews; the attacks just increased during both holidays. Today in the U.S., anti-semitism often increases more during the Christmas season–take, for example, the incident a year or two ago at the Seattle Airport, where the airport authorities removed Christmas trees instead of allowing the installation of a Chanukah menorah… even though the rabbi involved never asked for the trees to be removed, and was actually upset that they were removed, local Jewish organizations were flooded with hateful and frightening letters. Also, I don’t think that Joseph is disputing with you that Easter is a big day for anti-Semitism. He is referring to a minhag of partial mourning on Dec. 25th because of the violence on that day in the past. That minhag probably wouldn’t work on Easter, since Easter almost always falls during Pesach.