Avram in MD

gavra_at_work,

Do you mind if I ask why not?

We would not be able to afford it otherwise. And that’s without going on big vacations, staying home for Pesach, and no camps.

gavra_at_work,

The truth is the truth, it is not negative or positive. They are “low end” of the pay scale, and becuase they don’t pay well, the workers will find it harder to save for retirement.

Obviously I cannot disagree with what you wrote above; however, would you categorize someone in such a job as irresponsible?

Mailmen & sanitation workers make a large amount of money, BTW. Plus they get a pension, which most workers don’t get.

Thank you for the correction. I guess I was incorrectly relying on stereotypes.

What are your thoughts regarding the original question?

[The question in question:]

Should someone supporting a child or SIL in Kollel no longer be eligible for a scholarship?

As with most questions asked in this forum, the answers really depend on the factors involved with each specific case. In principle, though, if a pledge were made to support a kollel student for a certain length of time (e.g., 2 years), then I would think it should be treated like a mortgage, since the pledge is like a contract. At the same time, I can see cantoresq’s point.

Also, I find SJSinNYC’s idea of a 0% tuition loan very interesting. With funds coming from both present and past students (parents), perhaps the tuition rates could be lowered since the burden is shared and fewer scholarships would be needed.

SJSinNYC,

More than likely, they’ll be working until the day they die in a low end job.

Why hold such a negative attitude towards “low end jobs”? Jobs requiring fewer specialized skills usually pay less, but does that make those jobs less important? If everyone were “financially responsible” according to your definition, we would have no mailmen, sanitation workers, janitors, etc.

cantoresq,

M in Israel, if one uses to stolen money to support his limmud Torah, it is a mitzvah habah b’aveirah; just like using stolen money to buy Arbeh Minim. If one uses public funds to support his limmud Torah in those instances which you acknowledge it may be hashcafially inappropriate to do so, what else is it, if not navel birshut haTorah? Halacha may technically allow it, but it is disgusting.

I would like to get a better understanding of your position.

Suppose a man with a family worked as a janitor and received minimum wage. Would you be opposed to this man receiving government assistance to live?

mikehall12382,

A Woman outside bklyn…you’re making too much sense…stop it…we only accept illogical and foolish arguments here…

I happen to agree with the “pro-kosher-Subway” side of the argument, but I don’t think that statements putting down the entire Coffee Room (and by extension, a perceived community of Jews) are called for. Why are you here if you feel that everyone else who disagrees with you is inferior to your intellect?

FWIW – I think I understand the “anti-kosher-Subway” argument, but it is not being well articulated in this thread. The opposition comes from a conception that places like Kosher Subway open to provide Jews something they are “missing” because they keep kosher… as if kashrus renders us lacking something, G-d forbid. In reality the idea came from Subway itself, because they want to get a piece of the kosher market and its loyal customer base. I think they have already been doing it with the Halal (Muslim dietary codes) market. I have not seen anything in their marketing such as “come and see what you’ve been missing!”

I think the Subways are equivalent to the fake seafood, etc. We can keep kosher and eat all sorts of foods, but we have the benefit of serving Hashem through our food.

Pashuteh Yid,

If someone needs them,, he should go ahead and use them. But as Wolf said, to plan one’s life course in advance knowing he will use them does not seem right.

I do have a minor disagreement with this. If a person had decided to learn in kollel for a period of time, or was in grad school, should he delay starting a family until finishing, or drop out before finishing to look for a job if he knew that he would need to apply for foodstamps to feed his new family?

YW Moderator-88

I hope to close the contest and give the subtitles in about an hour.

Any application fee?

kavod hatorah,

btw there were torah giants who held a kollel guy should generaly not take out the garbage

Who held this?

I definitely agree with you in concept that Yeshiva students engaged in Torah learning should be given respect. I recently read a biography of the Chofetz Chaim which listed two ways he encouraged respect of his Yeshiva bochurim: having the boys take their meals at the Yeshiva instead of in private homes (so they were not made to feel like beggars), and telling men attending an early morning minyan at his Yeshiva’s beis medrash to be quieter so that the sleeping students were not disturbed.

At the same time, the Chofetz Chaim himself was seen shoveling snow out of the walkway of his Yeshiva’s beis medrash so that his students could have a safe walk. If the Chofetz Chaim himself could do chores and the honor of the Torah was still upheld, then how could the Torah’s honor be affected by a Yeshiva student doing chores? On the contrary, it shows kavod to the Torah because the student shows kavod to his parents and/or his wife, both critical Torah values.

mbachur,

why do moderators allow joseph to post?

He has literally dozens of screennames, some of which are “sleepers”, and others with which he posts mild, Torah-true comments to “fly under the radar” until he finds a thread (or person) to ratchet up his game. It can be quite some time before the game becomes evident.

I think speculating about his real-life persona, or what aveiros he is allegedly committing, is out of bounds. Discussing the negative impact on the Coffee Room of specific actions of his in the Coffee Room, or discussing ways to identify or prevent such activity, is fair game.

cleverjewishpun,

Watch how a real world class city run by corrupt thugs handles a blizzard of this magnitude

A blizzard can’t be knee-capped!

guardmytongue,

I was wondering who you were addressing though, I didn’t see anyone mention me.

Sometimes I’ve observed that a post is deleted, but responses to the deleted post are not.

I personally have decided not to try and guess who is a Joseph sock-puppet anymore. For one, I can be wrong, and two, he seems to have “sleeper” sock puppets reserved for later use or sock-puppets posting in a milder way to avoid detection. Also, I try to avoid analyzing or guessing at what’s going on with Joseph in “real life” based on what’s going on here. Too much risk for too little toeles.

All that said, I think it would be beneficial to note what consistently has been Joseph-like posting behavior, so that potentially affected threads can be read with a grain of salt.

Examples of Joseph-like behavior include:

1.) “Sybil Attack”: Joseph posts detailed, sound arguments under many usernames, to make it appear as if a majority of people share that opinion. One username frequently starts off where another finishes off, like a tag team, flowing freely in a manner you wouldn’t see with unrelated people posting anonymously. The content of these arguments can be true to Torah values… it’s the disingenuous methods that are a problem.

2.) Provocation or “straw man”: Joseph starts a thread (or responds to an OP) with a statement that may reflect the views of some Chareidi or Chassidic Jews, but is worded in a manner that sounds misogynistic, or is overly condemning of other viewpoints. Ultimately it risks making the perceived “Yeshivish” viewpoint look bad.

3.) Personal insults: Twists others’ usernames into insults (people do that to his screennames as well), questions others’ frumkeit, implies condemnation of posters, etc. Sometimes he will pick on specific users.

4.) Occasional interest in personal details of other users.

onegoal,

The IP address identifies where your computer or device is “located” on the Internet, so communication (transmission of data, e.g., posts to the Coffeeroom) can occur. The YWN computer knows your IP address because it received a message from your computer, and your computer knows the YWN server’s IP address, because it transmitted your post there.

Wolf,

According to him, every picture I took of my daughter from birth onward was a sin

From birth onward? This person said from birth?

haifagirl,

Perhaps we should have a thread dedicated to grammar and spelling topics, if people were interested in improving their skills.

Why should we have a thread dedicated to grammar now to satisfy past interest? 🙂

Seriously, I agree with you that it is painful to read some of these posts filled with misspellings and unclear language. Unfortunately, I do not think that a new thread on this message board will fix a problem that schools have been unable to fix. Also, legitimate attempts to impart grammar “mussar” should not be confused with the “grammar duck” in a debate, e.g.,

PosterA: I think X.

PosterB: I think u r mistkaen. It really is Y.

PosterA: You have poor grammar skills. Therefore, it follows that Y is incorrect and X is correct.

rollerskates,

Why not pose your question to your rav in the DC area?

BTW – Why on earth would you need to use the Metro to get to a grocery store?

Wolf,

I guess I truly am in the middle then, as my shul does both.

🙂

Really? Can you say that with a straight face? We both know exactly what the phrase means in yeshivish circles.

I don’t think I’m in a circle where I would be unable to say that with a straight face. I personally feel like I fall out somewhere in the middle on these boards, which makes the polarization seem strange, and almost artificial to me. Perhaps it’s because I’m “out of town.”

BTW – I have been called “Jew” before meant as an insult. Does that make it an insult?

mikehall12382,

Avram in MD…look up the definition of tounge and cheek

Nu?

I’m not sure exactly why my words are disagreeable. My view is this:

1.) There is nothing wrong with wearing jeans (I mean as daily clothing, not just for painting, plumbing, etc.). Jeans have no bearing on a person’s worth, religiosity, ethics, or anything of that sort.

2.) In general U.S. culture, not just Yeshivish culture, or European culture, etc., jeans are considered informal wear.

3.) In Yeshivish circles, value is placed on dressing formally according to a combination of the definitions set by the land in which we live, and what has traditionally been worn. A facet of this value is that slacks are preferable to jeans.

4.) A person wearing jeans is demonstrating that he does not share the value above in the manner defined by the Yeshivish/Chassidic/Chareidi community. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

If you disagree with anything I stated above, please tell me. I think it is possible that our debate has arisen because of a perception that Yeshivish/Chassidic/Chareidi people think that their way is the right way, and by extension look down on people who do not live the same way that they do. I do not deny that to be the case, and I do not think that it is a correct way to act. It does not mean, however, that the clothes one chooses to wear is meaningless in a cultural context.

I also wanted to point out that the “looking down” cuts both ways. It is natural for a person to feel that his way is right… otherwise he’d change his ways. Just like there are those in the Yeshivish community who look down on the MO, there are those in the MO community who look down on the Yeshivish.

Yes I have, usually in regards to the silly things discussed in this post IE Do wearing jeans make you less religious or is it OK to have a day job etc…you get the point

And do you point out how wrong it is for those people to group other Jews into categories of thought based on the way they dress (e.g., the black hats), as you have in this forum when it’s the pants being discussed and not the headwear?

I personally find the blue jeans -> MO assumption way less offensive than the black hat -> silly assumption, because calling someone MO is not an insult.

Joseph,

bpt – keep logging in as “BP Totty” and your posts will all show up as “bpt” (including all your old ones over your many years of ywn posting…)

How do you know?

nfgo3,

I agree with you. Jeans are very appropriate when engaged in tasks that could stain or rip a more expensive pair of pants. I was under the assumption that a more general wearing was being considered, e.g., wearing jeans to shul or yeshiva/kollel, or to work.

apushatayid,

What do you believe that statement is?

I don’t think there is yet a clear statement. It just stands out in some places. That is why the issue of wearing jeans brings out the righteous indignation of “don’t judge a person based on his clothing!!” whereas all would agree that a person sporting a mohawk and enough facial piercings to set off a metal detector is certainly making a statement. Even though the “don’t judge a person based on his clothing” would equally apply.

I’ll be honest, a while back I did wonder if there was more going on than met the monitor screen with the Wolf and Mosherose

Whoops, I meant chesedname actually, FWIW.

Can someone please explain how you’re allowed to warm up anything with a sauce on Shabbos? I thought only dry (Yavesh) things can be warmed.

I think people are talking about a dish that is hot and placed on the blech before Shabbos begins and eaten on Shabbos night.