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I think Bar Shattya’s point is right in line with what bpt was saying in his OP.
My normal habit is to buy Starbucks “Pike Place” whole beans (they come in a 1lb sealed bag with an OU) and grind and brew my own coffee at home in the morning with my own equipment. It’s much cheaper that way, and tastes just as good. The thing is, when you buy a bag of beans, they offer you a free cup of coffee. In the past, I’ve always taken them up on it. After reading the cRc’s “Guide to Starbuck’s Beverages”, however, I had to think. What do I do when it’s time to buy more beans? Do I get the free coffee or say no thanks?
Yes there’s debate back and forth about the actual status of the coffee, and I found myself mentally making justifications… it must be OK! But honestly, once I removed the simple fact that I like getting good tasting, free, convenient Starbucks coffee from the equation, I was left with one question: Am I OK with buying and drinking something that has a serious question on its kashrus status? No, I’m not.
So the solution is simple. Get the beans and say “no thanks” to the free coffee, or buy the beans from a Starbucks “kiosk” if I really want the free coffee. Just a touch more effort to stay totally inside my limits. It’s amazing how such a small thing can be such a big battle.
As a BT, I have personal experience with the issues discussed in this thread.
I grew up as an “active” Conservative, meaning we went to synagogue on a fairly regular basis. After I got married, we began to explore Judaism more and became more religious. At first, our growth was largely within the Conservative framework, as that is what I was raised with. I always had an attraction to Orthodox Judaism, but felt intimidated by it. In the town that we lived in at the time, there was a Conservative synagogue and a Chabad shul. Both were a considerable distance from where we lived (like 10-15 miles). We visited both, but started going more regularly to the Conservative one. Then I started wearing a yarmulke full time. Once, when driving home from the Conservative synagogue, I started to squirm in my seat. My wife asked me what was the matter. I said, “I feel like I need to take off my yarmulke.” She asked, “because we’re driving?” I said yes. We discussed the feelings, and decided that if we felt uncomfortable doing something while “looking Jewish”, then we must be doing something wrong. Starting the next Shabbos, we no longer drove.
I learned how to daven with an Orthodox siddur, and davened at home by myself on Shabbos. We lived like that for three years before B”H we were able to move into a frum community. Being able to go to shul is definitely better than davening alone, but once we began to understand what Shabbos was, to violate it by driving was not an option. I feel like I have a deep appreciation for shul now after those three years at home. I have no temptation whatsoever to talk during davening, and I tremble if given an aliyah.
Looking back, if I were directly rebuked for driving in an Orthodox setting when I still did so, it might have increased my fear of Orthodoxy and delayed our introduction into it. At the same time, someone who drives on Shabbos does not truly understand Shabbos. So instead of a direct rebuke, perhaps something more subtle would work better. Be very friendly. Be welcoming. And have an option ready for the person driving to be able to stay Shabbos in the community. And push it (cheerfully). Push how meaningful it would be, how honored you would be to have the person as a guest, etc. And act disappointed if turned down. I think that method would get the importance across without an unwelcoming stiff-arm.
The Wolf,
I’m forced to conclude that either the stereotype is correct (which I don’t really believe) or else some people say one thing but secretly do another.
Or, perhaps, you are debating with people who themselves are not married yet.
Getting back to the Subway restaurant discussion, shortly after the kosher Subway in Baltimore first opened, we picked up some subs to bring home with us. Once we left the restaurant, drove home, and got out of the van, I began to feel very uncomfortable holding the wrapped subs, because the packaging was identical to every other (non-kosher) Subway’s packaging, and the kosher version was probably not yet well known in our community. So while I don’t think the concept of a kosher Subway is wrong, especially if eating inside the restaurant, I can definitely see the maris ayin point. I think the whole problem could be fixed by a prominent sticker on the wrapping paper or the bag identifying the kashrus of the sandwich.
Chabad has a great Web site, Chabad.org, which includes a “Find a Center” feature.
bpt,
Not a tznius issue; a sechel issue.
How presumptuious of you to ask someone to park your car. What is he.. valet?
When I pictured the scene described by the OP, I thought of a car halfway in a tight spot and inches from other parked cars, not a car in the middle of the aisle with a woman saying, “park this for me, please!”
The more I think about the situation, I think the best way to have handled it would have been to say, “is it possible you can tell me if I’m getting too close to the car over there? This is the only spot I can find and I don’t want to hit anyone’s car!!”
I have done this for others when watching them attempt to park near me and obviously having trouble seeing how close they are to the other cars.
If the OP’s specific request was asked of me, I would feel a bit uncomfortable for two reasons:
1.) If she couldn’t get the car parked, why would I have more success? And then I’d be responsible for damaging two vehicles that were not mine.
2.) I view a car as a somewhat personal space, so I would feel uncomfortable getting into it from a tznius standpoint. I would have no problem if the help involved something like changing a flat tire, since that would not involve me actually getting into her car.
Also, knowing my personality, if I were asked that question and put on the spot, I’d probably hang my head and stammer something similar to what the rebbi in this story said, and then regret it later. Having the benefit of sitting in a warm office with a minute to think about the best response, I’d probably make a self deprecating joke about not letting me do it for the safety of her car and the ones around it, apologize, and move on. Or possibly offer to help guide the parking from the outside through hand signals, if that were helpful.
cantoresq,
Avram did your hypothetial yungerman start out in Kollel relying on obtaining the benefits, or anticipating going on them at some point in the future?
I would assume that he started out in Kollel on the food stamps, intending to learn full time for a period of time and then try to garner additional income through teaching, safrus, shopkeeper, etc.
gavra_at_work,
Do you mind if I ask why not?
We would not be able to afford it otherwise. And that’s without going on big vacations, staying home for Pesach, and no camps.
gavra_at_work
2: The question is “are you embarassed to use School Scholarships”? I would like a response to that, the second question is secondary.
So you would like me to answer the personal question:-) Ok, sure.
I would not be embarrassed.
gavra_at_work,
The truth is the truth, it is not negative or positive. They are “low end” of the pay scale, and becuase they don’t pay well, the workers will find it harder to save for retirement.
Obviously I cannot disagree with what you wrote above; however, would you categorize someone in such a job as irresponsible?
Mailmen & sanitation workers make a large amount of money, BTW. Plus they get a pension, which most workers don’t get.
Thank you for the correction. I guess I was incorrectly relying on stereotypes.
What are your thoughts regarding the original question?
[The question in question:]
Should someone supporting a child or SIL in Kollel no longer be eligible for a scholarship?
As with most questions asked in this forum, the answers really depend on the factors involved with each specific case. In principle, though, if a pledge were made to support a kollel student for a certain length of time (e.g., 2 years), then I would think it should be treated like a mortgage, since the pledge is like a contract. At the same time, I can see cantoresq’s point.
Also, I find SJSinNYC’s idea of a 0% tuition loan very interesting. With funds coming from both present and past students (parents), perhaps the tuition rates could be lowered since the burden is shared and fewer scholarships would be needed.
always here,
p.s.- I don’t tweet.
Hmmm, it’s a thought. If twitter branched out and allowed users to not only tweet, but squack, screech, and chirp, maybe they’d garner more members.
SJSinNYC,
More than likely, they’ll be working until the day they die in a low end job.
Why hold such a negative attitude towards “low end jobs”? Jobs requiring fewer specialized skills usually pay less, but does that make those jobs less important? If everyone were “financially responsible” according to your definition, we would have no mailmen, sanitation workers, janitors, etc.
cantoresq,
But I would also expect the janitor in your hypothetical, to look for ways to get off of public assistance.
Ok. So now consider a man learning in kollel. Would you be opposed to this man receiving government assistance to live, provided he was looking for ways to get off public assistance?
cantoresq,
M in Israel, if one uses to stolen money to support his limmud Torah, it is a mitzvah habah b’aveirah; just like using stolen money to buy Arbeh Minim. If one uses public funds to support his limmud Torah in those instances which you acknowledge it may be hashcafially inappropriate to do so, what else is it, if not navel birshut haTorah? Halacha may technically allow it, but it is disgusting.
I would like to get a better understanding of your position.
Suppose a man with a family worked as a janitor and received minimum wage. Would you be opposed to this man receiving government assistance to live?
apushatayid,
His Subway Development Corporation headquartered in the DC area owns over 1000 Subways.
We do have two kosher Subways here in MD…
mikehall12382,
A Woman outside bklyn…you’re making too much sense…stop it…we only accept illogical and foolish arguments here…
I happen to agree with the “pro-kosher-Subway” side of the argument, but I don’t think that statements putting down the entire Coffee Room (and by extension, a perceived community of Jews) are called for. Why are you here if you feel that everyone else who disagrees with you is inferior to your intellect?
FWIW – I think I understand the “anti-kosher-Subway” argument, but it is not being well articulated in this thread. The opposition comes from a conception that places like Kosher Subway open to provide Jews something they are “missing” because they keep kosher… as if kashrus renders us lacking something, G-d forbid. In reality the idea came from Subway itself, because they want to get a piece of the kosher market and its loyal customer base. I think they have already been doing it with the Halal (Muslim dietary codes) market. I have not seen anything in their marketing such as “come and see what you’ve been missing!”
I think the Subways are equivalent to the fake seafood, etc. We can keep kosher and eat all sorts of foods, but we have the benefit of serving Hashem through our food.
No one adressed the fact that if my rebbe was rav ruderman or rav hutner thats what i would be told to do!!
You have not addressed the fact that you have supplied no proof that either Rav held this way…
Pashuteh Yid,
If someone needs them,, he should go ahead and use them. But as Wolf said, to plan one’s life course in advance knowing he will use them does not seem right.
I do have a minor disagreement with this. If a person had decided to learn in kollel for a period of time, or was in grad school, should he delay starting a family until finishing, or drop out before finishing to look for a job if he knew that he would need to apply for foodstamps to feed his new family?
The most despicable thing I ever heard of. Why do we have to act like goyim, eat like goyim???
Do you know something that I don’t about yummy sandwiches on long rolls?
YW Moderator-88
I hope to close the contest and give the subtitles in about an hour.
Any application fee?
The alter of slabodka held that people that torah is their job should be treated like prince’s{prince’s dont take out the garbage} so his students like rav ruderman rav kaminetsky and rav hutner held this way.
Who’s inference was made in the brackets?
Also, which Royalty are we supposed to emulate? Kings and princes of flesh and blood? Or our King?
kavod hatorah,
btw there were torah giants who held a kollel guy should generaly not take out the garbage
Who held this?
I definitely agree with you in concept that Yeshiva students engaged in Torah learning should be given respect. I recently read a biography of the Chofetz Chaim which listed two ways he encouraged respect of his Yeshiva bochurim: having the boys take their meals at the Yeshiva instead of in private homes (so they were not made to feel like beggars), and telling men attending an early morning minyan at his Yeshiva’s beis medrash to be quieter so that the sleeping students were not disturbed.
At the same time, the Chofetz Chaim himself was seen shoveling snow out of the walkway of his Yeshiva’s beis medrash so that his students could have a safe walk. If the Chofetz Chaim himself could do chores and the honor of the Torah was still upheld, then how could the Torah’s honor be affected by a Yeshiva student doing chores? On the contrary, it shows kavod to the Torah because the student shows kavod to his parents and/or his wife, both critical Torah values.
It seems that Joseph has been behaving himself…
Or lying low…
Or using a name we haven’t caught onto yet.
mbachur,
why do moderators allow joseph to post?
He has literally dozens of screennames, some of which are “sleepers”, and others with which he posts mild, Torah-true comments to “fly under the radar” until he finds a thread (or person) to ratchet up his game. It can be quite some time before the game becomes evident.
I think speculating about his real-life persona, or what aveiros he is allegedly committing, is out of bounds. Discussing the negative impact on the Coffee Room of specific actions of his in the Coffee Room, or discussing ways to identify or prevent such activity, is fair game.
SJS,
I’m not on it.
Are you not on it because you do not think it is good?
I’m not on it either, but I thought that Twitter only allowed text, and only short messages at that!
cleverjewishpun,
Watch how a real world class city run by corrupt thugs handles a blizzard of this magnitude
A blizzard can’t be knee-capped!
Eclipse,
I’m not a doctor, but from personal experience, ear/jaw/tooth pain can have a wide variety of causes, including and not limited to:
– Pain from clenching or grinding teeth (a night guard might solve the problem).
– Ear infection(s) from your recent illness.
– Wisdom tooth infection.
– Sinus pain/congestion.
– Root canal problem.
At any rate, it’s a good idea to see your doctor and/or dentist! It’s especially important not to sit on a root canal problem, since those can become excruciating.
guardmytongue,
I was wondering who you were addressing though, I didn’t see anyone mention me.
Sometimes I’ve observed that a post is deleted, but responses to the deleted post are not.
I personally have decided not to try and guess who is a Joseph sock-puppet anymore. For one, I can be wrong, and two, he seems to have “sleeper” sock puppets reserved for later use or sock-puppets posting in a milder way to avoid detection. Also, I try to avoid analyzing or guessing at what’s going on with Joseph in “real life” based on what’s going on here. Too much risk for too little toeles.
All that said, I think it would be beneficial to note what consistently has been Joseph-like posting behavior, so that potentially affected threads can be read with a grain of salt.
Examples of Joseph-like behavior include:
1.) “Sybil Attack”: Joseph posts detailed, sound arguments under many usernames, to make it appear as if a majority of people share that opinion. One username frequently starts off where another finishes off, like a tag team, flowing freely in a manner you wouldn’t see with unrelated people posting anonymously. The content of these arguments can be true to Torah values… it’s the disingenuous methods that are a problem.
2.) Provocation or “straw man”: Joseph starts a thread (or responds to an OP) with a statement that may reflect the views of some Chareidi or Chassidic Jews, but is worded in a manner that sounds misogynistic, or is overly condemning of other viewpoints. Ultimately it risks making the perceived “Yeshivish” viewpoint look bad.
3.) Personal insults: Twists others’ usernames into insults (people do that to his screennames as well), questions others’ frumkeit, implies condemnation of posters, etc. Sometimes he will pick on specific users.
4.) Occasional interest in personal details of other users.
I am learning Brachos attending a shiur.
onegoal,
The IP address identifies where your computer or device is “located” on the Internet, so communication (transmission of data, e.g., posts to the Coffeeroom) can occur. The YWN computer knows your IP address because it received a message from your computer, and your computer knows the YWN server’s IP address, because it transmitted your post there.
mikehall12382:
the question wasn’t aimed at MO people…It was geared to those who feel Facebook is assur, but feel onlysimchas is not…therefore unknowingly by posting pictures, they are thus associated with facebook…hense the quagmire
I fail to see the difficulty. If a person has no Facebook account, they cannot see any Facebook content. So even if a site was associated with Facebook, how would the user who doesn’t have a Facebook account be associated?
Wolf,
According to him, every picture I took of my daughter from birth onward was a sin
From birth onward? This person said from birth?
Mod80,
Halfagirl:
People can write, text, or blog… however they want.
EDITED
Here is a subtle example of a hurtful username twist. So subtle there’s a chance it could have been accidental, but since the post already had to be edited for some reason…
@the goq- It would be one thing if I was a hick from the boonies, but I am from one of the largest cities in the US and I’ve been asked from NYers if there were a lot of farms in my town!
To be fair to the New Yorkers, NYC’s population is more than double the second largest city in the U.S. (Los Angeles), and the NY metro area exceeds the population of the 2nd largest metro area (LA again) by a whopping 6,000,000+ people. To put that into perspective, the #4 metro area (Dallas/Ft. Worth) doesn’t even have a population of six million.
Note that I am not condoning anyone having a complete ignorance of what life is like outside of their city. That said, if I were in your shoes, I probably would have mentioned how hard it is to get up before dawn to milk the cows before Shacharis. And how challenging it is to move your herds to their pastures via the subway.
haifagirl,
Perhaps we should have a thread dedicated to grammar and spelling topics, if people were interested in improving their skills.
Why should we have a thread dedicated to grammar now to satisfy past interest? 🙂
Seriously, I agree with you that it is painful to read some of these posts filled with misspellings and unclear language. Unfortunately, I do not think that a new thread on this message board will fix a problem that schools have been unable to fix. Also, legitimate attempts to impart grammar “mussar” should not be confused with the “grammar duck” in a debate, e.g.,
PosterA: I think X.
PosterB: I think u r mistkaen. It really is Y.
PosterA: You have poor grammar skills. Therefore, it follows that Y is incorrect and X is correct.
yunger mann,
Am I the only one that likes what Joseph says?
There are positions he has taken that I do agree with. There is a story that I recall, however, where a renowned Posek in Europe once became aware that a certain speaker was coming to town to deliver Torah lectures. The lectures themselves were very good and in line with Torah values, but the speaker had some questionable aspects to his lifestyle. The Posek forbade the man from speaking in his town, and the man went to the Rav to complain, saying, “listen to what I have to say, every word that comes out of my mouth is 100% kosher!” The Posek responded, “yes, but kosher food that is cooked in a traif pot becomes 100% traif.”
As the anonymous moderator appended to one of Joseph’s recent postings, dishonesty in one area casts aspersions on the other areas as well.
He has an ideology to push. Let him do it how he wants. No one said you should believe any one
He wrote to me on a different thread that he is “having fun.” The Torah is not a game! Having a kosher ideology is one thing, but purposefully saying things in an inflammatory manner that don’t have to be said that way, whether true or not, just to laugh at the reaction, can really cause harm and be a chillul Hashem.
rollerskates,
Why not pose your question to your rav in the DC area?
BTW – Why on earth would you need to use the Metro to get to a grocery store?
Avram, that would take out all the fun.
What makes it fun?
Wolf,
I guess I truly am in the middle then, as my shul does both.
🙂
BTW, in the past you’ve indiscriminately addressed innocent people by his name.
I apologize to any non-Josephs I mistakenly called Joseph.
Joseph, would you be so kind as to post a listing of all of your usernames so that I or others don’t make this unfortunate mistake again in the future?
Thanks so much!
Really? Can you say that with a straight face? We both know exactly what the phrase means in yeshivish circles.
I don’t think I’m in a circle where I would be unable to say that with a straight face. I personally feel like I fall out somewhere in the middle on these boards, which makes the polarization seem strange, and almost artificial to me. Perhaps it’s because I’m “out of town.”
BTW – I have been called “Jew” before meant as an insult. Does that make it an insult?
And that’s fine with me as I never self-identified as a Belzer Chosid or a Chareidi… and furthermore (and more importantly), there is NOTHING WRONG with NOT being a Belzer Chosid or a Chareidi.
The Wolf
I absolutely agree. Following the Torah properly is what matters.
mikehall12382,
Avram in MD…look up the definition of tounge and cheek
Nu?
I’m not sure exactly why my words are disagreeable. My view is this:
1.) There is nothing wrong with wearing jeans (I mean as daily clothing, not just for painting, plumbing, etc.). Jeans have no bearing on a person’s worth, religiosity, ethics, or anything of that sort.
2.) In general U.S. culture, not just Yeshivish culture, or European culture, etc., jeans are considered informal wear.
3.) In Yeshivish circles, value is placed on dressing formally according to a combination of the definitions set by the land in which we live, and what has traditionally been worn. A facet of this value is that slacks are preferable to jeans.
4.) A person wearing jeans is demonstrating that he does not share the value above in the manner defined by the Yeshivish/Chassidic/Chareidi community. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
If you disagree with anything I stated above, please tell me. I think it is possible that our debate has arisen because of a perception that Yeshivish/Chassidic/Chareidi people think that their way is the right way, and by extension look down on people who do not live the same way that they do. I do not deny that to be the case, and I do not think that it is a correct way to act. It does not mean, however, that the clothes one chooses to wear is meaningless in a cultural context.
I also wanted to point out that the “looking down” cuts both ways. It is natural for a person to feel that his way is right… otherwise he’d change his ways. Just like there are those in the Yeshivish community who look down on the MO, there are those in the MO community who look down on the Yeshivish.
eclipse,
I found that, when I became religious and wanted to train myself to not say certain words when shaken (e.g., jar dropped on foot, near accident on the road, etc.), it was not enough to resolve to refrain from saying the words. I had to resolve to not even THINK them when remaining quiet, since, when caught off guard, the word that first comes to mind slips right out of the mouth before I can stop it. One thing that helped me is that I picked a different, non-offensive phrase (e.g., “oh gosh!”, “yikes!”, “OUCH”), and consciously used it in similar but less sudden/stressful situations. Soon that became the word that I thought, and it became the word that popped out of my mouth.
Hope that helps!
Yes I have, usually in regards to the silly things discussed in this post IE Do wearing jeans make you less religious or is it OK to have a day job etc…you get the point
And do you point out how wrong it is for those people to group other Jews into categories of thought based on the way they dress (e.g., the black hats), as you have in this forum when it’s the pants being discussed and not the headwear?
I personally find the blue jeans -> MO assumption way less offensive than the black hat -> silly assumption, because calling someone MO is not an insult.
mike and charlie hall,
Can you honestly say that, in modern Orthodox settings you have encountered, you have never heard a disparaging comment about the “black hats”? I know I have.
I hear what you are saying, that we risk focusing too much on externals, and I agree. I do not think the problem can be dumped at the feet of one particular group, however.
Joseph,
bpt – keep logging in as “BP Totty” and your posts will all show up as “bpt” (including all your old ones over your many years of ywn posting…)
How do you know?
popa_bar_abba = mod 80 ?
I’m not sure why, but Mod80 reminds me of feivel, who hasn’t been around in a while. I used to enjoy his posts.