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Did he show other signs of disinterest (distraction, no eye contact, short responses, etc.) or was it just the yawning that was “off”?
I have asthma, which worsens in the springtime, and one of my prodromal symptoms is excessive yawning/sighing as I work harder to get enough air. Yawning from shortness of breath can also be a symptom of anxiety.
I’ll be bringing matza pizza to the office on a semi-frequent basis until the matza runs out (some time before Shavuos, likely earlier this year). I have enjoyed some kitniyos today, however.
Sounds like a minhag that can spare some hurt feelings. Prevents the situation of Reuven Lo-Gebrokts turning down an invite from Shimon Gebrokts, but accepting an invite from Levi Kol-haChumros, hurting Reuven’s feelings in the process.
We personally do invite and get invited for Pesach meals. If we feel that questions need to be asked, we ask them openly.
However, sometimes that is how I am made to feel.
By whom? Posters in this forum? People in the real world? I know none of us has a full picture of your experience, but it seems from your writing that a lot of the “my way or the highway” attitudes that appear to trouble you so much originate from teenagers or teenagers-at-heart. From dealings with teenagers in the present day to high-school experiences you’ve had. I never had the opportunity to attend a Yeshiva for high school; my only experience is with a public school. It seems, however, that there are unfortunately some common attitudes between both environments. For example, in a public school setting, one who does not wish to be ostracized must follow the clothing and other “minhagim” of the “in crowd.” B”H in the Yeshivos decent clothing and lofty pursuits are what’s considered “cool”, but despite that I do feel that the “in crowd” vs. “out crowd” attitude must go.
When my family and I first moved into our community, we met some extremely warm and friendly people. We also had some unfortunate experiences, rudeness, standoffishness, etc. The latter was extremely scary to us at first, since we were still relatively new to the “religious scene”, but we talked extensively with our Rav and let him guide us. We have B”H made some dear friends from the warm and friendly group, and we stay out of the way of the rudeness (and I believe that if they truly knew the effects of their words or actions on us, they would have acted differently). If we encounter a situation where someone tells us, “don’t you know that you should X”, or “I think the Y you are doing is wrong”, we thank them for the information and then take it to our Rav if needed and ask him what we should do.
Ultimately I have learned that most people are more concerned with what I or others think of them than vice versa.
I do have emotions and sometimes act very strongly on them, even if the end result is not completely logical. Consider it a failing on my part.
I don’t think emotions are a failing. Neither is all illogical behavior necessarily a failing. It was just saddening to me to sense that you felt hurt by a Yeshivish person or persons, and were coming to YWN to try and get others to heap more coals onto yourself.
No one has said that here, so obviously I cannot trot that out.
I was referencing a previous thread about loud and out-of-sync davening. In retrospect, I probably should not have brought that into this discussion.
It’s not that. Heck, the shul that I daven in when there is laining is a largely yeshivish-style shul with no talking… and I have never once ranted against it. On the contrary, it’s a warm welcoming atmosphere where people respect each others’ davening, do not talk or disturb and where I can actually hear the chazzan when he speaks.
That’s amazing that you have found a shul like that. I wonder if it would be worth it to trade in stress for footsteps and go to that shul for all of your davening on Shabbos?
Or perhaps get an associate membership at the other shul so you feel more empowered to say something about the atmosphere?
In other words, it’s not the fact that it’s yeshivish style… it’s the fact that they talk during davening. Had they been a chassidish shteeble, a Young Israel, an MO shul or anything else, I’d be just as bothered.
I apologize for mis-reading you. I interpreted your analysis of the attitude in that shul to be based on this portion of your opening salvo:
I know that you […] wear proper hats and jackets during davening and could easily quote gemarahs, rishonim and achronim that I’ve never heard of.
When we’re talking about a typical major or minor scale, the octave falls by the 8th note of the scale.
E.g., a C-major scale consists of:
C D E F G A B C(one octave above your starting C)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Now, if we’re doing a whole tone scale, there’s only 7. If a half tone scale, 13.
observanteen,
Speaking only from my personal experience as a BT, my neshama was pulling at me since I was a kid; however, misconceptions about Orthodoxy and Orthodox Jews was a huge barrier. I literally feared Orthodox Jews – I thought they looked down on me, considered me inferior, and wanted nothing to do with me.
It was a combination of finding resources and learning (finding authentically frum books is difficult if you are not frum! Non-frum sources have a lot printed on frumkeit, unfortunately) and small religious interactions with Orthodox Jews, culminating with approaching an Orthodox rabbi, that helped chip away the barrier for me.
So I agree with you, perhaps non-frum Jews don’t need a lecture, they don’t need to be told that they are losing their chelek in Olam Haba because they do X (when they honestly don’t know of X, even if told). What they need is a smile, a hand to guide them through a mitzvah and a hearty “Amein” to show them that the mitzvah meant something to Hashem and to Orthodox Jewry.
WolfishMusings,
Please forgive me this rant on your rant…
Do you HONESTLY believe that there is an obscure heter for talking about mundane subjects during davening? Yes or no?
I don’t think you do, otherwise, you would not have titled this thread a rant. Please answer, but I’m guessing you’re not going to bother responding to this post.
Almost everyone here could see the point you were trying to make, and it was a good point, but then you branched off into the absurd.
I have tried to make sense of your polemical style, which follows a pattern of:
1.) I am bothered by [insert a clearly halachically wrong behavior] that is done by people who are makpid on the external Yeshivish customs (e.g., hat and jacket).
2.) I am not makpid on those same external Yeshivish customs.
Left here, it is a fairly strong attack against hypocrisy. Those same people who would never come to davening without a hat and jacket because it would be “wrong” (not adhering to a custom) then talk in shul (an outright aveira). Touchee! But then you invariably continue:
3.) Since those who wear a hat and jacket are superior to me because I don’t wear a hat and jacket, then [insert a clearly halachically wrong behavior] must be somehow correct and I am too unlearned to see how.
OK, a somewhat strange thing to say, but it still fits into your attack on hypocrisy if taken as dripping with sarcasm. Touchee again! However the switch to the “twilight zone” occurs:
4.) Drop points 1 and 2 and argue that you are completely and honestly serious about point 3.
Why do you do this? You as well as the rest of us know what the gedolim say about talking in shul (if you didn’t, which I doubt, an example from the S”A was posted above), so your contention that you honestly believe there is actually a heter for talking in shul collapses like a house of cards. So I am left with the question: why do you want me, a reader, to accept your point 4?
I’m beginning to suspect that you’re hoping someone not paying close enough attention falls into the logical snare you have set, and asks or tells you something along the lines of: if you really believe that these men have some sort of heter for talking in shul, then perhaps you should not be bothered by the talking? That statement is the logical endgame of this absurd line of thinking, but it is fundamentally wrong because the premise is wrong.
Then three months from now, when someone else posts a rant against talking in shul, you can triumphantly trot out: I posted the same thing three months ago, and was told that I was wrong and to stop being bothered by it!
I am sorry that you have had so much trouble at this Yeshivish-style shul. I really, honestly believe that some of the “stuff” you are encountering there is not representative of the entire Yeshivish world. I also don’t feel that the Yeshivish world is “out to get you” despite what you may or may not believe. If it was, you wouldn’t have to lay such elaborate traps to get the condemnation that you seek as proof. On the contrary, you seem well liked in this forum. I enjoy most of your posts, which is why I think I get so bothered by threads like this one.
All the best!
WolfishMusings,
I’m sorry you have had two bad experiences at shul. I think you did the right thing by moving to a different location to daven. It might be best for your sanity and blood pressure to try and avoid sitting near this person again when davening at this shul.
Just a thought… are you sure this fellow is free from any emotional or mental handicaps? I once was davening at a shul during Yom Kippur (with services in a temporary structure), when a man came in either quite late, or had left his seat for an extended period of time, and screamed at another man, “You are sitting in MY SEAT!!!” and muttered more under his breath. As for me, my breath was taken away at the meanness displayed… on Yom Kippur no less! After glancing at him a few more times and thinking about it, I decided to myself that the man was probably mentally handicapped in some way and wasn’t aware that his behavior was inappropriate. My anger towards him dissipated pretty quickly after that.
I know based on a logical analysis of what he said, he thoughtlessly condemned thousands of Jews, but perhaps he wasn’t thinking his words through or wasn’t thinking logically.
mw13,
I think you are correct in principle, but one cannot understate the difficulty and risk in properly giving tochacha to a Jewish soul. That is why, I think, you are receiving objections to your post. The Kohen Gadol must enter the Holy on Yom Kippur in a very precise fashion… any mistakes can be disasterous. I think giving tochacha should be approached with the same fear and awe. If a valuable ring fell into the sink and was perched right over the drain, we wouldn’t just quickly swing our hand down to grab at it… we would very carefully and deliberately rescue it.
In some cases if one is careful enough, tochacha can be given indirectly, without any confrontation. To make a really simplistic example, suppose person A sees person B doing something forbidden on Shabbos, like getting something out of his locked car. Maybe later, person A can casually bring up as part of a conversation, “oh, I wish I could show you my such-and-such, but I left in in my car and can’t get it until after Shabbos!” Point made without doing anything to person B’s dignity.
Sacrilege,
Romance and Infatuation are not the same thing.
Romance or Romancing someone is the act of loving/courting them. Infatuation is an emotion.
Perhaps I am working with differing definitions of romance. I agree that nice gestures demonstrating affection and interest should be made while dating, and that should only increase with marriage.
When I was thinking romance, however, I lumped it with infatuation because, in our surrounding culture, romance is used as a tool to generate infatuation. This unfortunately causes some to close their eyes to their partners’ faults while dating, only to open them after marriage. Ideally it should be the other way around.
popa_bar_abba,
If by establishing romance you mean establishing goodwill and demonstrating emotional and spiritual compatibility, I agree.
shlishi,
In my experience, I also find that public davening – other than Shemonah Esrei – where there is a “loud din” caused by everyone reciting the pesukim or brachos out loud are the most uplifting. I feel the engagement, the purpose, and the noise is angelic (literally).
I think, however, that The Frumguy and WolfishMusings (from 3 months ago) aren’t talking about that type of situation. They are talking about an individual who is shouting over the din – and may not even be in sync with the tzibbur.
So while I agree that davening out loud is best, one must remember that davening with a minyan is about the tzibbur, not just oneself, and adjust accordingly. There are plenty of opportunities to scream praises of Hashem at the top of your lungs throughout the day. When I walk into shul, I prefer to be a part of the din, not over it.
I think that yummy cupcake is correct in the context of dating.
I think that popa_bar_abba is correct in the context of marriage.
The terms used in our surrounding culture to describe romance/infatuation are telling: “head over heels”, “falling [in love]”, “smitten”, etc. All describe a loss of grounding.
Infatuation is not intrinsically bad and it is a vital part of human nature. During the dating process, however, I think it’s important to keep one’s eyes as open as possible despite the infatuation… and then fall completely “head over heels” after marriage. In other words, “romance” shouldn’t substitute for substantial conversation.
whats it take to get a screename subtitle?
A briefcase filled with small denomination, unmarked bills.
WolfishMusings,
I complained about this three months ago here on these forums and one poster basically told me (in essence) to stop complaining because the person disturbing me by davening loudly was right and I was wrong.
I read that thread with interest, but I don’t remember seeing a post that told you to stop complaining.
Out of 40 posts on that thread, I counted only four – from only two authors – that outright disagreed with you. The other 90% of the posts either agreed with you, indirectly complimented you through worries that you were leaving the CR due to the thread title or not singing in shul anymore, or were neutral (I’m including posts from authors trying to see both sides of the issue as neutral).
Of the disagreements, there was a total misunderstanding between you and Moderator80, which to me didn’t seem to result from a true disagreement on what you posted, but out of defensiveness and jumping to conclusions (on both sides). That leaves essentially only one author who disagreed with you to the end.
What I did notice was that any whiff of disagreement with your post – such as mentioning a value in reciting pesukim loudly during parts of davening – prompted an immediate response of (e.g.,):
So, is it your contention that I was wrong to be so upset?
Nobody wrote back and said yes.
So why, with a disapproval rating of (not even) 10% on your thread, do you feel persecuted?
WolfishMusings,
I intended my previous post to be worded in a very simple style. Upon rereading it, I’m concerned that it could come across as “sharp.” It wasn’t my intention!
WolfishMusings,
It seems that your question has been answered in pieces throughout the posts above.
Statement 1: We are obligated to try and stop a Jew from sinning.
Statement 2: An ain ma’alin who falls into a river is not committing a sin, therefore to not bring him up causes no conflict with statement 1.
Statement 3: Suicide is a grave sin.
Statement 4: See statement 1.
Do you disagree with any of this?
I think ZeesKite is right. A near miss is indeed a miss, and the “near” emphasizes the closeness attained by the almost-colliding subjects.
This cold shoulder business is the opposite of all midos tovos. Perish the thought. Chas vchalila. One can be extremely warm and kind, and still not cross any lines. One should greet everybody b’sever panim yafos,
I mostly agreed with you, up until…
offer to help in any way, ask them how their day is and how their family is doing, etc.
Helping with boundaries is no problem, but helping “in any way” is, since college students frequently blend social and academic activity. Think, “can we study for the exam over dinner?”
The remaining examples risk crossing the boundaries of professionalism. One can be approachable and friendly without discussing details of personal lives.
If I were back in college, I would try to reserve most interactions for the in-class setting, and pick same-gender lab partners.
We give out a small piece of chocolate for each good question.
a mamin,
Health: Are you trying to scare us???
No, I don’t think he is. I have GERD and have been treated by a GI doctor. Infrequent heartburn is one thing, but frequent heartburn should warrant a visit to the doctor. The esophageal walls are delicate and can be damaged by frequent reflux. It’s something that can be treated, so one should not just “live with it.”
shlishi and popa_bar_abba – hilarious!
I am a serious bruxer and clench/grind during the night, but am not aware of it. The dentist noticed wear on my bottom teeth. I recently received a mouthguard. Clenching/griding can definitely be a cause of tooth pain.
aries2756,
H&M does have a right to be notified that their ad was offensive in that community and that the owner of the space should have informed them of that.
For all of the money that large companies spend on market research, I find it hard to believe that they would have been completely ignorant of the situation. Also, I would imagine that people calling or writing complaints would be more likely to send them to the company rather than the property owner, because the company’s name is on the ad.
charliehall,
Yes, I would oppose it. Vandalism is illegal. It is no different from some Christian fanatic torching a synagogue because he is offended from our denial of his messiah.
Please. I really don’t think that painting over a billboard and torching a synagogue are analogous. In fact, I find the juxtaposition objectionable, since it suggests that torching a synagogue is only vandalism, and not an act of terror and hatred, or even murder if someone were inside.
Also, would you oppose any form of civil disobedience, no matter what for, because it was illegal?
gavra_at_work,
Had the Bochrim been thinking clearly, they might have covered the ad without defacing it (such as using a large tarp and a staple gun), until the ad could be changed by the owner.
I very much agree with this.
Wolf,
So, if someone told you that you had a 10% chance of winning the prize of a lifetime by spending three hours or so, wouldn’t you take the chance?
No, it’s not mean. Go out and have a good time.
I really enjoyed this post.
bpt,
I must have missed that Berenstain Bears book when I was a kid!
Oooh oooh! Mod80, Can I have two?
Unfortunately, I cannot pay via Paypal, because my loved ones and I were mugged on the last day of our vacation in England, just hours before we were to depart for the airport! We lost all of our cash, our passports, IDs, everything but the clothes on our backs! So could you please wire us some money so we can pay for our hotel bill and get home? Why am I asking you to wire the money to Nigeria? Good question! I just won the Nigerian lottery, but there is a shipping cost to get that big, giant, trophy check shipped out. If you help me out here, you get 25% of the lottery earnings… sound good??
The OP describes a situation using words like “shocked”, “mortified”, and “street kids”, but the actual details provided in the post make it very unclear what exactly happened that was a chillul Hashem.
Then we have two posters fly into the discussion from out of the woodwork putting down Yeshiva students – practically as a whole – with Grandmaster striking back by putting down public school students.
I have the feeling that something disingenuous is going on with this thread.
Leon Normanson,
I can’t assess exactly what the problem was based on your post.
Are students with a valid student ID allowed to ride on this route without paying a fare? I’ve been places where that is the case. Were they students? If they were mistaken in their assumption of what the policy was, did they pay?
yid.period,
And the point of bringing up Europe was to point out before, while you still were talking about Modern Orthodox, that your definition is skewed. It can’t be that anyone affected by modern culture would fall under the category of “Modern Orthodox.” According to your definition, everyone who was affected by European culture in that time period, and the subsequent gedolim, fell victim to “Modern” orthodoxy.
Your comments would be quite correct if the surrounding environment’s moral fiber during the previous 200 years was steady state. Jews have indeed interacted with our surrounding environments throughout our history; however, the level of interaction tends to vary depending on the nature of that environment. In Mitzrayim, for example, where there was rampant debauchery, the Jewish community remained very distinct in language and dress. Up until around the 1950s, however, when the surrounding cultures dressed in a largely dignified, tznius fashion, Jews more readily adopted those styles of dress.
I don’t think anyone here would argue that a black hat magically turns the wearer into a mentsch. It’s what’s inside the head and heart that matter. Symbols can be powerful, however, and to wear a hat which went out of style decades ago can be a powerful statement of both identification with a particular community and a rejection of negative cultural changes. This is not to say that those who don’t wear such hats are in the wrong. In fact, many communities rejected any American style hat at all, and continue to wear the hats that were worn in Europe.
In other words, I hear you regarding the wrongness of passing judgement on others based on their headgear, but do you think that “Yeshivish” Jews should throw away their fedoras, and Chassidim should drop their streimels, just because other Jews don’t wear them?
Health,
fedup11210 – I posted this months ago under Diabetes Support Group -“it should be ideally <6. This will be very difficult to attain.”
Keep trying!
Conventionally that is true; however, how can you direct this personally towards fedup11210, without knowing his personal medical history?
Wolf,
I know exactly how you feel. I have been bothered by talking, sometimes right in front of me while I’m in the middle of Shemoneh Esrei, and it makes my hair rise [wolf pun intended], because not only does it injure the davening of the talker, but of the listener(s), and of my own davening and others nearby through disturbance and distraction. In fact, it is harmful to the entire tzibbur, as the disruption ripples away from the source. And… I am also one of those who would find any kind of personal confrontation abhorrent and painful. I hate conflict to a fault.
This may seem silly to you, but I noticed that you said:
I stand in an out-of-the-way corner, so as to disturb as few people as possible.
I think, unfortunately, that habitual talkers might use the same logic. Talk in the corner so we don’t disturb others… too much. When I was new to my shul, I preferred to stand in the back, and had a lot of problems with disruptive talking around me. Then I moved towards the front, closer to where the Rav sits, and I hear very little talking there. Like night and day.
So my advice/question in your case is… which would be harder for you: to confront the talkers, or to sit more in the front, where perhaps you will be surrounded by people who, like you, came to daven seriously. For me, sitting up front was easier. And now it’s my “regular” place. I’d opt to do it even as a guest at a different shul. I’d just choose an “out of the way” place near the front.
PS – Why do you insinuate that leining is somehow in the same category as disruptive talking during davening? Isn’t that potentially disingenuous?
anon1m0us,
Perhaps that’s why Melech Hamoshiach would ideally wear a crown instead of a hat:-)
anon1m0us,
So Hashem kills thousands of innocent people to send US a message?
We cannot understand why Hashem does anything He does. What we can understand is that Hashem has a relationship with us and controls everything in this world, including our lives and what we are exposed to or not. He has caused us to live and also hear of the terrible events that happened in Japan. Should we say, “that has nothing to do with us” and return to business as usual, or should we respond somehow?
AinOhdMilvado,
I definitely believe that the hardship of fasting is 90% in your head.
I can’t vouch for the number, but I definitely agree with what you are saying, at least until the early afternoon. When I consciously fast, I pay more attention to my body’s signals. I may feel equally hungry at 10am on a Shabbos morning as on a fasting morning, but since I “expect” in the back of my mind to eat soon on Shabbos, I tend to ignore or not notice the hunger. That’s why, if for some reason lunch is delayed on Shabbos, the hunger seems to “hit” suddenly.
Anyone else ever feel “thirsty” at Kol Nidrei, even though you just drank a huge amount at the seuda shortly before?
If you are from the Northeast:
You don’t stay WITH your parents, you stay BY your parents.
You don’t stand IN line, you stand ON line.
You don’t visit “Floor”ida and drink orange juice, you visit “Flahrida” and drink “ahringe” juice.
If you are from the deep South:
You don’t get ready to have supper, you’re fixin’ to have supper.
You might-could go to the park in an hour…
Some were perhaps the result of lawsuits; I know for a fact that the “Caution: Beverage Hot” warning on paper coffee cups was. Others were clearly jokes, e.g., the airplane nuts directing the user to eat them. And others were probably the result of clumsy translations into English – for example, the Hong Kong “beware of people” sign was probably meant to demarcate a pedestrian crossing.
poppa bar abba,
I assume that you leave shul on Shabbos Rosh Chodesh while the haftorah is being read.
bpt,
But consider this: were a male to act in the manner you describe, fully covered by a partition / blanket / ect, he would be removed from the plane in handcuffs. And rightfully so.
This is a flawed argument, as men do not nurse infants.
Given the case described here of a woman on an airplane with a nursing infant who does not accept a bottle and where using the lavatory is unfeasible, should the woman deny her hungry child food and let him cry?
WolfishMusings,
Wow. How appropriate the username…
Why then, do you persist?
ZeesKite,
I am sorry to hear about what happened to you.
One thing that I thought might be helpful to add: when a person is shocked, our reactions are almost instinctual. Almost everyone has an initial response to such an event, when the adrenaline and pain hormones rush out. How we feel right after that is our choice.
This is something I am trying to grapple with, since I have a long commute in traffic, and I have been finding that the frequent displays of meanness on the roads has been getting to me and reducing my happiness during the week.
Good reframes for meanness would be nice to hear.
Sacrilege,
I’m willing to wager that should the “Employer” find out that this is how you feel (should these feelings be real) he would in turn feel terrible.
I agree. If I were the “employer” in that situation and were approached and offered compensation for a 15 minute break, I would be upset and concerned that I had done something to mistakenly indicate that the photographer’s work was not up to par, or that he did not try hard enough, etc.
Wolf, did your “employer” comment on the job you did?
Mod80:
but when someone volunteers to do a job he has a certain responsibility to make sure he does it properly. after all the job is important to the one that asked for it to be done, and had he known the volunteer would do a subpar job he might have arranged for a different person to do the work.
I was thinking the exact same thing. If a person volunteers to do a job for someone else when that person would likely have paid for the job had the volunteer offer not been made, very real damage could be done if the job is not done up to par.
I certainly don’t think that a 15 minute break can be considered subpar, however. Most places of employment allow two 15-minute breaks in an 8 hour work day, and I’m sure that if Wolf’s organization contracted with a professional photographer, a break period would have been in the contract. I think it’s as understood as using the floor, restrooms, and drinking water at your place of employment. After all, neither the photographing company nor the hiring organization want photographers with knee and back trouble. This is not Mitzrayim, and B”H we are not employed by paroh.
Wolf,
Why don’t you buy a box of ice cream from the store where you advised a fellow customer on ingredients that may have caused the customer to decide not to buy, and give it to the “employer” whose event you photographed.
Voila! Two birds with one stone:-)
On a serious note, what responses are you actually expecting to your query?
I don’t think that the concerns many have about Facebook are unfounded.
Here is a quotation from a 14 July 2010 CNN.com article about Facebook (article titled Facebook a ‘tool’ for cheating spouses, some say):
A recent survey by the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers found that 81 percent of divorce attorneys have seen an increase in the number of cases using social networking evidence during the past five years. More than 66 percent of those attorneys said the No. 1 site most often used as evidence is Facebook with its 400 million registered users.
Of course the counter-argument to this is, “those who will stray will stray, with or without Facebook.” However, Facebook makes it much easier.
chabad770,
It’s much harder than defining differences. Images and immodesty are everywhere, in stores, advertisements, on the street, etc. As Jewish men, it is our job to not look, and to keep our thoughts away from those things. Then a healthier sense can be developed.
chabad770,
It is important to be attracted to your spouse. One must, however, make sure that he is not letting the destructive culture that surrounds us in the West define what “pretty” is… because the Western ideal does not even exist in the real world.
ZeesKite,
I’ll take a try on at least one of your questions:)
What’s my next answer to the new post_______
Answer:
“Had one before, it ran away.
Did anybody see the anti-semetic Christian?
Pope exonerates Jews. Why now? Wait Wait Wait!
What on Earth? The Yiddishe chain plays!
running out of steam.. “
How did I do?
The Wolf,
Didn’t Paul VI declare (as part of Vatican II back in the 1960s)that present-day Jews aren’t responsible for the death of Jesus? What’s different about this proclamation?
The previous pope made the public proclamation. This pope is trying to back it up with analysis. Obviously he is correct from a real-world standpoint, but I doubt the original authors of his texts would agree with him. They were, after all, conducting a huge smear campaign against the Jewish people as a whole.
stickynote,
If you’re really interested in the inner workings of CR moderation, I recommend sitting in on a class at your local Moderator University. I’ve heard there are several scattered throughout the country. You might even think about applying, but I’ve heard the application fee is prohibitive, your transcripts have to be stellar, and the sophomore year weed-out class is a nightmare.
Wow. How sad for everyone involved.
yogibooboo, it is impossible for me or anyone else in this thread to know all the details of your situation. From your descriptions of the specific noise problems you experienced, however, it seems to me that a big contributer to the noise was flimsy construction. I’ve lived in downstairs apartments before and have never heard the upstairs neighbors’ washing machines. If I heard a washing machine like that, I would feel upset not at the neighbors, but at the cheap construction. I wonder if your upstairs neighbors felt that they were not making unreasonable amounts of noise, when in truth the flimsy floors were allowing all of the sound to flow down. Usually when I think of noise problems (which I have experienced), I think of loud music, parties, shouting, playing ball inside, etc. B”H you found a new apartment and hopefully don’t have to deal with the noise anymore.
The Goq, I don’t think that Mod80 was blaming anyone. He was describing in a beautiful way what is commonly called “taking the high road.” Valuing peace between Jews over (even justified) victory. Not out of a holier-than-thou attitude, but out of fear of the consequences of Jews fighting with each other.