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WolfishMusings,
I’m sorry you have had two bad experiences at shul. I think you did the right thing by moving to a different location to daven. It might be best for your sanity and blood pressure to try and avoid sitting near this person again when davening at this shul.
Just a thought… are you sure this fellow is free from any emotional or mental handicaps? I once was davening at a shul during Yom Kippur (with services in a temporary structure), when a man came in either quite late, or had left his seat for an extended period of time, and screamed at another man, “You are sitting in MY SEAT!!!” and muttered more under his breath. As for me, my breath was taken away at the meanness displayed… on Yom Kippur no less! After glancing at him a few more times and thinking about it, I decided to myself that the man was probably mentally handicapped in some way and wasn’t aware that his behavior was inappropriate. My anger towards him dissipated pretty quickly after that.
I know based on a logical analysis of what he said, he thoughtlessly condemned thousands of Jews, but perhaps he wasn’t thinking his words through or wasn’t thinking logically.
mw13,
I think you are correct in principle, but one cannot understate the difficulty and risk in properly giving tochacha to a Jewish soul. That is why, I think, you are receiving objections to your post. The Kohen Gadol must enter the Holy on Yom Kippur in a very precise fashion… any mistakes can be disasterous. I think giving tochacha should be approached with the same fear and awe. If a valuable ring fell into the sink and was perched right over the drain, we wouldn’t just quickly swing our hand down to grab at it… we would very carefully and deliberately rescue it.
In some cases if one is careful enough, tochacha can be given indirectly, without any confrontation. To make a really simplistic example, suppose person A sees person B doing something forbidden on Shabbos, like getting something out of his locked car. Maybe later, person A can casually bring up as part of a conversation, “oh, I wish I could show you my such-and-such, but I left in in my car and can’t get it until after Shabbos!” Point made without doing anything to person B’s dignity.
Sacrilege,
Romance and Infatuation are not the same thing.
Romance or Romancing someone is the act of loving/courting them. Infatuation is an emotion.
Perhaps I am working with differing definitions of romance. I agree that nice gestures demonstrating affection and interest should be made while dating, and that should only increase with marriage.
When I was thinking romance, however, I lumped it with infatuation because, in our surrounding culture, romance is used as a tool to generate infatuation. This unfortunately causes some to close their eyes to their partners’ faults while dating, only to open them after marriage. Ideally it should be the other way around.
popa_bar_abba,
If by establishing romance you mean establishing goodwill and demonstrating emotional and spiritual compatibility, I agree.
shlishi,
In my experience, I also find that public davening – other than Shemonah Esrei – where there is a “loud din” caused by everyone reciting the pesukim or brachos out loud are the most uplifting. I feel the engagement, the purpose, and the noise is angelic (literally).
I think, however, that The Frumguy and WolfishMusings (from 3 months ago) aren’t talking about that type of situation. They are talking about an individual who is shouting over the din – and may not even be in sync with the tzibbur.
So while I agree that davening out loud is best, one must remember that davening with a minyan is about the tzibbur, not just oneself, and adjust accordingly. There are plenty of opportunities to scream praises of Hashem at the top of your lungs throughout the day. When I walk into shul, I prefer to be a part of the din, not over it.
I think that yummy cupcake is correct in the context of dating.
I think that popa_bar_abba is correct in the context of marriage.
The terms used in our surrounding culture to describe romance/infatuation are telling: “head over heels”, “falling [in love]”, “smitten”, etc. All describe a loss of grounding.
Infatuation is not intrinsically bad and it is a vital part of human nature. During the dating process, however, I think it’s important to keep one’s eyes as open as possible despite the infatuation… and then fall completely “head over heels” after marriage. In other words, “romance” shouldn’t substitute for substantial conversation.
whats it take to get a screename subtitle?
A briefcase filled with small denomination, unmarked bills.
WolfishMusings,
I complained about this three months ago here on these forums and one poster basically told me (in essence) to stop complaining because the person disturbing me by davening loudly was right and I was wrong.
I read that thread with interest, but I don’t remember seeing a post that told you to stop complaining.
Out of 40 posts on that thread, I counted only four – from only two authors – that outright disagreed with you. The other 90% of the posts either agreed with you, indirectly complimented you through worries that you were leaving the CR due to the thread title or not singing in shul anymore, or were neutral (I’m including posts from authors trying to see both sides of the issue as neutral).
Of the disagreements, there was a total misunderstanding between you and Moderator80, which to me didn’t seem to result from a true disagreement on what you posted, but out of defensiveness and jumping to conclusions (on both sides). That leaves essentially only one author who disagreed with you to the end.
What I did notice was that any whiff of disagreement with your post – such as mentioning a value in reciting pesukim loudly during parts of davening – prompted an immediate response of (e.g.,):
So, is it your contention that I was wrong to be so upset?
Nobody wrote back and said yes.
So why, with a disapproval rating of (not even) 10% on your thread, do you feel persecuted?
WolfishMusings,
I intended my previous post to be worded in a very simple style. Upon rereading it, I’m concerned that it could come across as “sharp.” It wasn’t my intention!
WolfishMusings,
It seems that your question has been answered in pieces throughout the posts above.
Statement 1: We are obligated to try and stop a Jew from sinning.
Statement 2: An ain ma’alin who falls into a river is not committing a sin, therefore to not bring him up causes no conflict with statement 1.
Statement 3: Suicide is a grave sin.
Statement 4: See statement 1.
Do you disagree with any of this?
I think ZeesKite is right. A near miss is indeed a miss, and the “near” emphasizes the closeness attained by the almost-colliding subjects.
This cold shoulder business is the opposite of all midos tovos. Perish the thought. Chas vchalila. One can be extremely warm and kind, and still not cross any lines. One should greet everybody b’sever panim yafos,
I mostly agreed with you, up until…
offer to help in any way, ask them how their day is and how their family is doing, etc.
Helping with boundaries is no problem, but helping “in any way” is, since college students frequently blend social and academic activity. Think, “can we study for the exam over dinner?”
The remaining examples risk crossing the boundaries of professionalism. One can be approachable and friendly without discussing details of personal lives.
If I were back in college, I would try to reserve most interactions for the in-class setting, and pick same-gender lab partners.
We give out a small piece of chocolate for each good question.
a mamin,
Health: Are you trying to scare us???
No, I don’t think he is. I have GERD and have been treated by a GI doctor. Infrequent heartburn is one thing, but frequent heartburn should warrant a visit to the doctor. The esophageal walls are delicate and can be damaged by frequent reflux. It’s something that can be treated, so one should not just “live with it.”
shlishi and popa_bar_abba – hilarious!
I am a serious bruxer and clench/grind during the night, but am not aware of it. The dentist noticed wear on my bottom teeth. I recently received a mouthguard. Clenching/griding can definitely be a cause of tooth pain.
aries2756,
H&M does have a right to be notified that their ad was offensive in that community and that the owner of the space should have informed them of that.
For all of the money that large companies spend on market research, I find it hard to believe that they would have been completely ignorant of the situation. Also, I would imagine that people calling or writing complaints would be more likely to send them to the company rather than the property owner, because the company’s name is on the ad.
charliehall,
Yes, I would oppose it. Vandalism is illegal. It is no different from some Christian fanatic torching a synagogue because he is offended from our denial of his messiah.
Please. I really don’t think that painting over a billboard and torching a synagogue are analogous. In fact, I find the juxtaposition objectionable, since it suggests that torching a synagogue is only vandalism, and not an act of terror and hatred, or even murder if someone were inside.
Also, would you oppose any form of civil disobedience, no matter what for, because it was illegal?
gavra_at_work,
Had the Bochrim been thinking clearly, they might have covered the ad without defacing it (such as using a large tarp and a staple gun), until the ad could be changed by the owner.
I very much agree with this.
Wolf,
So, if someone told you that you had a 10% chance of winning the prize of a lifetime by spending three hours or so, wouldn’t you take the chance?
No, it’s not mean. Go out and have a good time.
I really enjoyed this post.
bpt,
I must have missed that Berenstain Bears book when I was a kid!
Oooh oooh! Mod80, Can I have two?
Unfortunately, I cannot pay via Paypal, because my loved ones and I were mugged on the last day of our vacation in England, just hours before we were to depart for the airport! We lost all of our cash, our passports, IDs, everything but the clothes on our backs! So could you please wire us some money so we can pay for our hotel bill and get home? Why am I asking you to wire the money to Nigeria? Good question! I just won the Nigerian lottery, but there is a shipping cost to get that big, giant, trophy check shipped out. If you help me out here, you get 25% of the lottery earnings… sound good??
The OP describes a situation using words like “shocked”, “mortified”, and “street kids”, but the actual details provided in the post make it very unclear what exactly happened that was a chillul Hashem.
Then we have two posters fly into the discussion from out of the woodwork putting down Yeshiva students – practically as a whole – with Grandmaster striking back by putting down public school students.
I have the feeling that something disingenuous is going on with this thread.
Leon Normanson,
I can’t assess exactly what the problem was based on your post.
Are students with a valid student ID allowed to ride on this route without paying a fare? I’ve been places where that is the case. Were they students? If they were mistaken in their assumption of what the policy was, did they pay?
yid.period,
And the point of bringing up Europe was to point out before, while you still were talking about Modern Orthodox, that your definition is skewed. It can’t be that anyone affected by modern culture would fall under the category of “Modern Orthodox.” According to your definition, everyone who was affected by European culture in that time period, and the subsequent gedolim, fell victim to “Modern” orthodoxy.
Your comments would be quite correct if the surrounding environment’s moral fiber during the previous 200 years was steady state. Jews have indeed interacted with our surrounding environments throughout our history; however, the level of interaction tends to vary depending on the nature of that environment. In Mitzrayim, for example, where there was rampant debauchery, the Jewish community remained very distinct in language and dress. Up until around the 1950s, however, when the surrounding cultures dressed in a largely dignified, tznius fashion, Jews more readily adopted those styles of dress.
I don’t think anyone here would argue that a black hat magically turns the wearer into a mentsch. It’s what’s inside the head and heart that matter. Symbols can be powerful, however, and to wear a hat which went out of style decades ago can be a powerful statement of both identification with a particular community and a rejection of negative cultural changes. This is not to say that those who don’t wear such hats are in the wrong. In fact, many communities rejected any American style hat at all, and continue to wear the hats that were worn in Europe.
In other words, I hear you regarding the wrongness of passing judgement on others based on their headgear, but do you think that “Yeshivish” Jews should throw away their fedoras, and Chassidim should drop their streimels, just because other Jews don’t wear them?
Health,
fedup11210 – I posted this months ago under Diabetes Support Group -“it should be ideally <6. This will be very difficult to attain.”
Keep trying!
Conventionally that is true; however, how can you direct this personally towards fedup11210, without knowing his personal medical history?
Wolf,
I know exactly how you feel. I have been bothered by talking, sometimes right in front of me while I’m in the middle of Shemoneh Esrei, and it makes my hair rise [wolf pun intended], because not only does it injure the davening of the talker, but of the listener(s), and of my own davening and others nearby through disturbance and distraction. In fact, it is harmful to the entire tzibbur, as the disruption ripples away from the source. And… I am also one of those who would find any kind of personal confrontation abhorrent and painful. I hate conflict to a fault.
This may seem silly to you, but I noticed that you said:
I stand in an out-of-the-way corner, so as to disturb as few people as possible.
I think, unfortunately, that habitual talkers might use the same logic. Talk in the corner so we don’t disturb others… too much. When I was new to my shul, I preferred to stand in the back, and had a lot of problems with disruptive talking around me. Then I moved towards the front, closer to where the Rav sits, and I hear very little talking there. Like night and day.
So my advice/question in your case is… which would be harder for you: to confront the talkers, or to sit more in the front, where perhaps you will be surrounded by people who, like you, came to daven seriously. For me, sitting up front was easier. And now it’s my “regular” place. I’d opt to do it even as a guest at a different shul. I’d just choose an “out of the way” place near the front.
PS – Why do you insinuate that leining is somehow in the same category as disruptive talking during davening? Isn’t that potentially disingenuous?
anon1m0us,
Perhaps that’s why Melech Hamoshiach would ideally wear a crown instead of a hat:-)
anon1m0us,
So Hashem kills thousands of innocent people to send US a message?
We cannot understand why Hashem does anything He does. What we can understand is that Hashem has a relationship with us and controls everything in this world, including our lives and what we are exposed to or not. He has caused us to live and also hear of the terrible events that happened in Japan. Should we say, “that has nothing to do with us” and return to business as usual, or should we respond somehow?
AinOhdMilvado,
I definitely believe that the hardship of fasting is 90% in your head.
I can’t vouch for the number, but I definitely agree with what you are saying, at least until the early afternoon. When I consciously fast, I pay more attention to my body’s signals. I may feel equally hungry at 10am on a Shabbos morning as on a fasting morning, but since I “expect” in the back of my mind to eat soon on Shabbos, I tend to ignore or not notice the hunger. That’s why, if for some reason lunch is delayed on Shabbos, the hunger seems to “hit” suddenly.
Anyone else ever feel “thirsty” at Kol Nidrei, even though you just drank a huge amount at the seuda shortly before?
If you are from the Northeast:
You don’t stay WITH your parents, you stay BY your parents.
You don’t stand IN line, you stand ON line.
You don’t visit “Floor”ida and drink orange juice, you visit “Flahrida” and drink “ahringe” juice.
If you are from the deep South:
You don’t get ready to have supper, you’re fixin’ to have supper.
You might-could go to the park in an hour…
Some were perhaps the result of lawsuits; I know for a fact that the “Caution: Beverage Hot” warning on paper coffee cups was. Others were clearly jokes, e.g., the airplane nuts directing the user to eat them. And others were probably the result of clumsy translations into English – for example, the Hong Kong “beware of people” sign was probably meant to demarcate a pedestrian crossing.
poppa bar abba,
I assume that you leave shul on Shabbos Rosh Chodesh while the haftorah is being read.
bpt,
But consider this: were a male to act in the manner you describe, fully covered by a partition / blanket / ect, he would be removed from the plane in handcuffs. And rightfully so.
This is a flawed argument, as men do not nurse infants.
Given the case described here of a woman on an airplane with a nursing infant who does not accept a bottle and where using the lavatory is unfeasible, should the woman deny her hungry child food and let him cry?
WolfishMusings,
Wow. How appropriate the username…
Why then, do you persist?
ZeesKite,
I am sorry to hear about what happened to you.
One thing that I thought might be helpful to add: when a person is shocked, our reactions are almost instinctual. Almost everyone has an initial response to such an event, when the adrenaline and pain hormones rush out. How we feel right after that is our choice.
This is something I am trying to grapple with, since I have a long commute in traffic, and I have been finding that the frequent displays of meanness on the roads has been getting to me and reducing my happiness during the week.
Good reframes for meanness would be nice to hear.
Sacrilege,
I’m willing to wager that should the “Employer” find out that this is how you feel (should these feelings be real) he would in turn feel terrible.
I agree. If I were the “employer” in that situation and were approached and offered compensation for a 15 minute break, I would be upset and concerned that I had done something to mistakenly indicate that the photographer’s work was not up to par, or that he did not try hard enough, etc.
Wolf, did your “employer” comment on the job you did?
Mod80:
but when someone volunteers to do a job he has a certain responsibility to make sure he does it properly. after all the job is important to the one that asked for it to be done, and had he known the volunteer would do a subpar job he might have arranged for a different person to do the work.
I was thinking the exact same thing. If a person volunteers to do a job for someone else when that person would likely have paid for the job had the volunteer offer not been made, very real damage could be done if the job is not done up to par.
I certainly don’t think that a 15 minute break can be considered subpar, however. Most places of employment allow two 15-minute breaks in an 8 hour work day, and I’m sure that if Wolf’s organization contracted with a professional photographer, a break period would have been in the contract. I think it’s as understood as using the floor, restrooms, and drinking water at your place of employment. After all, neither the photographing company nor the hiring organization want photographers with knee and back trouble. This is not Mitzrayim, and B”H we are not employed by paroh.
Wolf,
Why don’t you buy a box of ice cream from the store where you advised a fellow customer on ingredients that may have caused the customer to decide not to buy, and give it to the “employer” whose event you photographed.
Voila! Two birds with one stone:-)
On a serious note, what responses are you actually expecting to your query?
I don’t think that the concerns many have about Facebook are unfounded.
Here is a quotation from a 14 July 2010 CNN.com article about Facebook (article titled Facebook a ‘tool’ for cheating spouses, some say):
A recent survey by the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers found that 81 percent of divorce attorneys have seen an increase in the number of cases using social networking evidence during the past five years. More than 66 percent of those attorneys said the No. 1 site most often used as evidence is Facebook with its 400 million registered users.
Of course the counter-argument to this is, “those who will stray will stray, with or without Facebook.” However, Facebook makes it much easier.
chabad770,
It’s much harder than defining differences. Images and immodesty are everywhere, in stores, advertisements, on the street, etc. As Jewish men, it is our job to not look, and to keep our thoughts away from those things. Then a healthier sense can be developed.
chabad770,
It is important to be attracted to your spouse. One must, however, make sure that he is not letting the destructive culture that surrounds us in the West define what “pretty” is… because the Western ideal does not even exist in the real world.
ZeesKite,
I’ll take a try on at least one of your questions:)
What’s my next answer to the new post_______
Answer:
“Had one before, it ran away.
Did anybody see the anti-semetic Christian?
Pope exonerates Jews. Why now? Wait Wait Wait!
What on Earth? The Yiddishe chain plays!
running out of steam.. “
How did I do?
The Wolf,
Didn’t Paul VI declare (as part of Vatican II back in the 1960s)that present-day Jews aren’t responsible for the death of Jesus? What’s different about this proclamation?
The previous pope made the public proclamation. This pope is trying to back it up with analysis. Obviously he is correct from a real-world standpoint, but I doubt the original authors of his texts would agree with him. They were, after all, conducting a huge smear campaign against the Jewish people as a whole.
stickynote,
If you’re really interested in the inner workings of CR moderation, I recommend sitting in on a class at your local Moderator University. I’ve heard there are several scattered throughout the country. You might even think about applying, but I’ve heard the application fee is prohibitive, your transcripts have to be stellar, and the sophomore year weed-out class is a nightmare.
Wow. How sad for everyone involved.
yogibooboo, it is impossible for me or anyone else in this thread to know all the details of your situation. From your descriptions of the specific noise problems you experienced, however, it seems to me that a big contributer to the noise was flimsy construction. I’ve lived in downstairs apartments before and have never heard the upstairs neighbors’ washing machines. If I heard a washing machine like that, I would feel upset not at the neighbors, but at the cheap construction. I wonder if your upstairs neighbors felt that they were not making unreasonable amounts of noise, when in truth the flimsy floors were allowing all of the sound to flow down. Usually when I think of noise problems (which I have experienced), I think of loud music, parties, shouting, playing ball inside, etc. B”H you found a new apartment and hopefully don’t have to deal with the noise anymore.
The Goq, I don’t think that Mod80 was blaming anyone. He was describing in a beautiful way what is commonly called “taking the high road.” Valuing peace between Jews over (even justified) victory. Not out of a holier-than-thou attitude, but out of fear of the consequences of Jews fighting with each other.
I think Bar Shattya’s point is right in line with what bpt was saying in his OP.
My normal habit is to buy Starbucks “Pike Place” whole beans (they come in a 1lb sealed bag with an OU) and grind and brew my own coffee at home in the morning with my own equipment. It’s much cheaper that way, and tastes just as good. The thing is, when you buy a bag of beans, they offer you a free cup of coffee. In the past, I’ve always taken them up on it. After reading the cRc’s “Guide to Starbuck’s Beverages”, however, I had to think. What do I do when it’s time to buy more beans? Do I get the free coffee or say no thanks?
Yes there’s debate back and forth about the actual status of the coffee, and I found myself mentally making justifications… it must be OK! But honestly, once I removed the simple fact that I like getting good tasting, free, convenient Starbucks coffee from the equation, I was left with one question: Am I OK with buying and drinking something that has a serious question on its kashrus status? No, I’m not.
So the solution is simple. Get the beans and say “no thanks” to the free coffee, or buy the beans from a Starbucks “kiosk” if I really want the free coffee. Just a touch more effort to stay totally inside my limits. It’s amazing how such a small thing can be such a big battle.
As a BT, I have personal experience with the issues discussed in this thread.
I grew up as an “active” Conservative, meaning we went to synagogue on a fairly regular basis. After I got married, we began to explore Judaism more and became more religious. At first, our growth was largely within the Conservative framework, as that is what I was raised with. I always had an attraction to Orthodox Judaism, but felt intimidated by it. In the town that we lived in at the time, there was a Conservative synagogue and a Chabad shul. Both were a considerable distance from where we lived (like 10-15 miles). We visited both, but started going more regularly to the Conservative one. Then I started wearing a yarmulke full time. Once, when driving home from the Conservative synagogue, I started to squirm in my seat. My wife asked me what was the matter. I said, “I feel like I need to take off my yarmulke.” She asked, “because we’re driving?” I said yes. We discussed the feelings, and decided that if we felt uncomfortable doing something while “looking Jewish”, then we must be doing something wrong. Starting the next Shabbos, we no longer drove.
I learned how to daven with an Orthodox siddur, and davened at home by myself on Shabbos. We lived like that for three years before B”H we were able to move into a frum community. Being able to go to shul is definitely better than davening alone, but once we began to understand what Shabbos was, to violate it by driving was not an option. I feel like I have a deep appreciation for shul now after those three years at home. I have no temptation whatsoever to talk during davening, and I tremble if given an aliyah.
Looking back, if I were directly rebuked for driving in an Orthodox setting when I still did so, it might have increased my fear of Orthodoxy and delayed our introduction into it. At the same time, someone who drives on Shabbos does not truly understand Shabbos. So instead of a direct rebuke, perhaps something more subtle would work better. Be very friendly. Be welcoming. And have an option ready for the person driving to be able to stay Shabbos in the community. And push it (cheerfully). Push how meaningful it would be, how honored you would be to have the person as a guest, etc. And act disappointed if turned down. I think that method would get the importance across without an unwelcoming stiff-arm.
The Wolf,
I’m forced to conclude that either the stereotype is correct (which I don’t really believe) or else some people say one thing but secretly do another.
Or, perhaps, you are debating with people who themselves are not married yet.
Getting back to the Subway restaurant discussion, shortly after the kosher Subway in Baltimore first opened, we picked up some subs to bring home with us. Once we left the restaurant, drove home, and got out of the van, I began to feel very uncomfortable holding the wrapped subs, because the packaging was identical to every other (non-kosher) Subway’s packaging, and the kosher version was probably not yet well known in our community. So while I don’t think the concept of a kosher Subway is wrong, especially if eating inside the restaurant, I can definitely see the maris ayin point. I think the whole problem could be fixed by a prominent sticker on the wrapping paper or the bag identifying the kashrus of the sandwich.
Chabad has a great Web site, Chabad.org, which includes a “Find a Center” feature.
bpt,
Not a tznius issue; a sechel issue.
How presumptuious of you to ask someone to park your car. What is he.. valet?
When I pictured the scene described by the OP, I thought of a car halfway in a tight spot and inches from other parked cars, not a car in the middle of the aisle with a woman saying, “park this for me, please!”
The more I think about the situation, I think the best way to have handled it would have been to say, “is it possible you can tell me if I’m getting too close to the car over there? This is the only spot I can find and I don’t want to hit anyone’s car!!”
I have done this for others when watching them attempt to park near me and obviously having trouble seeing how close they are to the other cars.
If the OP’s specific request was asked of me, I would feel a bit uncomfortable for two reasons:
1.) If she couldn’t get the car parked, why would I have more success? And then I’d be responsible for damaging two vehicles that were not mine.
2.) I view a car as a somewhat personal space, so I would feel uncomfortable getting into it from a tznius standpoint. I would have no problem if the help involved something like changing a flat tire, since that would not involve me actually getting into her car.
Also, knowing my personality, if I were asked that question and put on the spot, I’d probably hang my head and stammer something similar to what the rebbi in this story said, and then regret it later. Having the benefit of sitting in a warm office with a minute to think about the best response, I’d probably make a self deprecating joke about not letting me do it for the safety of her car and the ones around it, apologize, and move on. Or possibly offer to help guide the parking from the outside through hand signals, if that were helpful.