Avram in MD

This is nuts, absolutely nuts.

I care about shemiras einayim and hilchos tznius. I am personally bothered when people are lax with these halachos. But these protesters are so warped in their actions that I can’t believe anyone here is attempting to mount a defense for them.

Let’s not even get into the spitting on an 8-year old yet. That’s in a league of its own. Why are these protesters even there? If what “Health” says is true, that they can see immodestly dressed women from their windows due to this school, how on earth can they justify running up to the school to get a closer look (while yelling at them of course)? Would a person concerned about exposure to radiation protest a nuclear power plant being built across the street from his house by running into the radioactive core? Pure shemiras einayim cannot be their motivation, because if it were, it would be their WIVES out there protesting. The men would stay as far away from the school as they could, choosing instead to complain through other channels. My wife would never want me to place myself in a situation where it would be certain that I would see pritzus. In fact, to do that is a violation of halacha.

Now for the spitting. Some (or one) here have attempted to say, “the MO started it, so they have the blame for inflaming the crazies.” Excuse me? That’s an argument little children use. Real adults take responsibility for their actions, no matter what instigated the situation. If I assault a guy who cut me off in traffic, do you think the cops will excuse me if I said, “but he started it, he had it coming! He shoulda known that there are crazy people around!” Another argument made here to defend these men is “maybe the children are dressed ok, but the problem is the mothers walking the children to school are immodest…” Well then, why was it the 8-year old girl who got spit on? Did the monster miss the mother and hit the girl by mistake? Maybe he was accidentally facing children when hurling epithets and meant to face the mothers? I don’t think so.

Unfortunately we do have a tznius problem, and I think some people here are afraid that if they fully condemned the spitter, they would somehow be yielding ground in their argument. But this crime was not about tznius. If we allow tznius to be co-opted by sheer perversion, to be used as a weapon by debauched individuals to violate women with the veneer of “holiness”, then we lose everything.

Misogyny is not a mitzvah.

Hi WolfishMusings,

I was wondering if you had any responses to my replies to you here.

Thanks!

moishy,

I thought you are always supposed to put the shel rosh on the right of the bag and the shel yad on the left side??

That’s actually what I do. Maybe I heard to do that from somewhere, and have long since forgotten (but kept the habit).

When I return my tefillin to their bag, I place the tefillin shel rosh on the same side each day. That way, I will remove the tefillin shel yad first the next morning by habit.

BTGuy,

Great, well thought out post!

I want to be an individual just like everyone else! (couldn’t resist)

Seriously though, are there concrete benefits for people to choose different colors for raincoats other than black for Shabbos attire? I don’t feel like a “Borg” when I wear black on Shabbos.

WolfishMusings,

Thank you for responding.

Your example of an EMT (by the way, did you know that I used to be an EMT?) is not really applicable[…]

Didn’t know that… when I first typed the response I put policeman, but changed it to EMT to avoid the complications of a warrant, etc.

I’m not aware of anything that says that one is allowed to be sad on Shabbos just for sake of being sad.

That’s not the issue. If I tripped on Shabbos and fell against a wall with a light switch and accidentally turned the light on, am I a mechalel Shabbos? Oops, didn’t mean to do that… now I can’t say vayechulu with the tzibbur next Shabbos? No, because the melacha was involuntary. A mechalel Shabbos, on the other hand, does his aveiros on purpose. You, however, wrote in your response to kako above:

It is what I am, and it pains me terribly that that’s the way I am, but I am certainly not “ok” with it.

This indicates that your sadness is involuntary, which does NOT make you a mechalel Shabbos. It’s not like you wear torn clothes, fast, and wail in public on Shabbos [at least, I’m assuming you don’t!]. Involuntary sadness that affects your ability to accomplish what you want to is called depression, and if it is upsetting you this much, you should really speak to someone you trust, rather than publicly beating yourself up on the CR. I am affected emotionally by the change of seasons (likely due to the lack of sunlight), and sometimes when it’s really bad, I feel like I’m defective… like some grooves were dug into my brain that cause irrational sadness that other people don’t have. Because intellectually I know I don’t have anything to be sad about, yet I’m sad anyway. Then to make matters worse, my yetzer hara comes and tells me that I’m sinning, reminding me of the admonishment of a husband and father to not be melancholy, and so on top of sad, I feel like a bad person. That’s a trick that the yetzer hara plays, because if I feel like a sinner, then I stay sad. Now that I understand more about the physical causes of my feelings, my wife kicks me outside with my toddler in a stroller when there’s a lot of sunshine. I also try to take a walk during the day outside of the office. The extra sun exposure and exercise help with the sadness.

Any judgements I make apply to myself and myself only.

Are you saying that you’re different, somehow, from other Jews? A tzaddik who’s held to a higher standard? Again, I think this is possibly a trick of the yetzer hara.

I don’t know why you would assume that I didn’t give the person I spoke with the complete, unadulterated truth. I assure you that that’s not the case.

You told this person that you have had problems with feeling sad occasionally on Shabbos, even though you don’t want to be sad, and would like help to not feel sad, and s/he replied that you’re a sinner and should avoid saying vayechulu on Shabbos?? Sounds nuts to me.

Nonetheless, I stand by his ruling, as one does not go “p’sak shopping.”

You have not said that this person is your rav. I’d recommend getting rulings from your rav, and only after giving a full and accurate picture of your issue (e.g., not just saying, “R’ X, in theory, is someone who consistently violates a Shabbos prohibition in the S”A considered a mechalel Shabbos?” and so on).

No. You’ll notice that my blogging activity has dropped off considerably in the past year.

I have not read your blog enough to know much about your posting habits, but I have read enough to know that there you criticize what you see as craziness, and here you accept craziness and apply it to yourself.

Hi Health,

Somehow I don’t think most people have the same negative feelings about hospitals, medical personell, esp. those in the OB Dept., as you do.

I’ve never done a poll.

Also, your assumption about treatment for childbirth -if you really believe what you posted and all others that think like you -why use them? The last I heard was this was a free country -you don’t have to go to the hospital -you can deliver at home. And esp. nowadays they have birthing centers where you are only treated by midwives and not doctors

Excellent suggestions for normal, healthy pregnancies. 🙂

Avram -So acc. to your train of thought -I personally attacked every Frum woman who didn’t always make it on time to the hospital to deliver. So I guess they should all come here and bash me.

No, I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about what you said to Nechomah:

Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.

That was a personal attack.

Also, when some OBs and hospital staff pay more attention to their watches and protocols than to the laboring woman and baby, stressing the mother out, then rushing things along for their convenience and jumping too quickly to forceps or surgery, if I were a woman, I’d probably want to wait until the very last minute to go to the hospital, too.

Health,

So why does the Frum community have so many childbirth related calls? Simple -because they are uneducated.

???? ??? ?????????? ????????????? ???????????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? ?????????

🙂

I am not a doctor, but I am a GERD sufferer and have been to a GI (so please take everything I write with that grain of salt!). Barrett’s Esophagus is abnormal looking cells caused by damage from repeated acid reflux into the esophagus. The doctor diagnoses it after performing an endoscopy. Since Barrett’s Esophagus is tied to a greater change of getting cancer of the esophagus (Heaven forbid), while the treatment plan might be no different than treatment for GERD, the GI will likely want to have more frequent endoscopies performed, perhaps once a year. Treatment is preventing heartburn.

I was told by my GI that it is safe to take prilosec (omeprazole) or previcid (lansoprazole) daily on a continual basis (it’s certainly safer than repeated heartburn and its associated damage!). One primary reason the OTC versions have a 14 day limit is to get people who have frequent, repeated heartburn in to see their doctor.

It’s also a good idea to make lifestyle changes that help prevent heartburn… avoiding lots of spicy or greasy/fatty foods, coffee/chocolate in high quantities, not lying down right after eating, elevating yourself, etc.

Hatzlacha!

WolfishMusings,

[in response to popa_bar_abba:] Why is it so difficult to believe that, at the very least, I truly believe this?

Because you’re smarter than this.

I ended up speaking with someone about this situation.

<rant>

Who, mosherose?

I’m not sure why your game bothers me so much. Maybe it’s because, in some areas (as far as I can determine through your posts), we think in similar ways. You seem to care about your beliefs being logically consistent and despise anti-intellectualism or fallacies. Yet in threads like this, your arguments are rife with blatant fallacies, including (in just this thread alone):

Sweeping generalizations (a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid – you ignore universally acceptable exceptions to rules). For example, if state law said, “entering into a private domicile without consent of the owner is illegal”, I can see you writing an OP saying “I deserve to go to jail because I entered into someone’s house without permission yesterday…by the way, I’m an EMT.” The funniest example of your use of this fallacy is your, “I’m a sinner because I talk during leining (I’m the ba’al koreh)” shtick. This mechalel Shabbos one’s not so funny, however, because it can add stress or misery to a person who is depressed, doesn’t see the fallacy in your argument, and might take you seriously.

Appeal to anonymous authority – “I ended up speaking with someone about this situation”, and somehow this random person becomes the final word, ignoring what everyone else said on this thread. Also apparent is that you likely did not give this person all of the relevant information, which is not in the spirit of ????????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????????

False dilemmas – either you’re never sad on Shabbos, or you are a mechalel Shabbos who cannot cook for other Jews or handle wine, or say vayechulu with the tzibbur. No different than saying that someone either supports all of the president’s policies, or he is a traitor.

So, as popa_bar_abba asked, what is behind your drive to take every generalization, apply it rigidly or absurdly to your personal situation to come up with faux aveiros (which is not how a rav would operate IRL), and then parade your “shame” publically in the CR? Are you trying to bait extreme posters like mosherose to give crazy responses so you can prove their ignorance or have fodder for your blog? Are you trying to make halacha and/or Orthodox Jews look bad? I can’t understand it. But really, given how much knowledge you obviously have of Jewish law and tradition, I can’t possibly accept that you are being serious with this.

</rant>

Syag Lchochma,

I am certainly no expert on IT security, and I don’t know anything about what’s been going on behind the scenes here on the CR.

I personally would not expect an unsolicited e-mail from someone in the CR. If I received one, I would assume that someone hacked the CR’s data, and would report it to the editor. I personally would not respond to the e-mail. Nor would I respond to someone’s request to e-mail them.

Now, if someone I know personally (as in, I know them and their e-mail address personally) e-mailed me and said, “are you Avram in MD in the CR?” I would respond.

If someone claimed to be a person I know but was writing from an unfamiliar e-mail address, I would be more suspicious. I would probably write an e-mail to the address I know for that person, to confirm it really is him.

As far as banking account information, as long as you’re not using the same username and password for the CR as you are for your financial institutions, I think you’re fine:-) Of course, keep in mind that your financial institutions will never send you an unsolicited e-mail prompting you for personal information (e.g., “Your account has been locked, click here to log in and resolve the problem!”). I’d also keep your true PII (first, last name, SSN obviously) away from the CR, and write to the editor/mods if you feel like someone is trying to “out” you.

coffee addict,

that’s true if the chasuna was in St. Louis however if it’s Brooklyn or anywhere else in the NY/NJ area I think it’s fine to name the city

This is the kind of discussion/back-and-forth I was hoping to see with the other security thread… rather than what it devolved into.

I would agree, that with no other details, that naming the city wouldn’t necessarily be a problem. But combined with perhaps a specific detail of something that happened during the wedding, another poster may be able to determine which wedding it was. I’m not saying that those details shouldn’t be posted, but the poster should be aware of what they may be giving away.

soliek,

It seems to me that the two “sides” in this security debate are converging towards agreement.

I mostly agree with your blame-the-one-who-foolishly-gives-out-too-much-personal-information-and-let’s-get-on-with-it argument, but there are some cases where posters, especially younger ones, may not realize they are giving out enough information to uniquely identify themselves. This is where I see a place for the security discussion. Not witch hunts, not Joseph-hunting (he’s certainly not the only sock puppet maker here!), but just gentle words of caution. Like suggesting one write, “I was at my cousin’s wedding recently…” rather than, “I was at my older cousin’s wedding in St. Louis last night…”

Zeeskite,

And no, Joseph is NOT a dangerous person, right Joseph?

I confess that I have been interested in exposing the “Joseph” sock puppet accounts in the past, but stopped for two reasons.

1.) I realized after mistakenly labeling a poster as “Joseph” while following a mod’s lead in the past (sorry again, real-brisker!), that one of his tactics is to ensure a lot of collateral damage if anyone ever makes a concerted effort to find all of his screennames. Unfortunately, Am Yisrael Chai is probably the greatest victim of this collateral damage (Shticky Guy makes this point well when he notes that the mods suspected Joseph).

2.) Around the same time, I tried direct questions to Joseph because I wanted to know why he played his games, and got this creepy response.

As for why I was interested in exposing the Joseph sock puppets at all, I felt offended because he purported to be “defending” the Torah’s honor through using his less than savory methods, which undercut the message and ultimately was a chillul Hashem. I also feared that he was launching a straw-man sybil attack on Torah values – drumming up opposition to Torah true positions by presenting them in a confrontational, inflammatory manner.

To me, disrupting the CR and causing chillul Hashem is “dangerous” enough, but apparently other things have been going on behind the scenes as well.

That said, while I have obviously been on the side of those urging caution on the CR, I did not feel that the matter with AYC should have been handled in such a public manner. I agree with YW Moderator-42’s new position that suspected sock puppet accounts will be dealt with silently and via e-mail correspondence. I also agree with those who have said that threads more conducive to sharing personal details (rather than opinions/positions on issues) should receive more special care from the moderators, and perhaps a notice in the thread if things are getting out of hand or seem “off.”

Shticky Guy,

I have a big problem. I have received some emails from friends over the last few days. But are they posters here at ywn or not, if yes then dont I have to report them?

Surely you can differentiate between an unsolicited, unverifiable e-mail and a normal e-mail from friends. This seems like an attempt to discredit the appeal for greater caution through a straw man fallacy.

That said…

Jothar,

Is it possible to stop the conflation of the Joseph/AYC/speculations issue with the real issue of poster safety which is what prompted you to open this thread in the first place (note your OP says “no need to mention names”)? The title of this thread, Be aware of stalkers/info stealers is important to discuss and can be done without naming names. This needless speculation about specific posters only adds fuel to those criticizing greater caution because of the Orwellian feel, and brings people who would otherwise agree with the message of caution to the other “camp”, since the caution appeal becomes associated with personal attacks.

If the moderators suspect a specific poster of harassment, perhaps they can close the problematic thread with a note saying, “if you have been contacted by posterX, please e-mail the moderators.” Nothing more. As for this thread, perhaps rather than focusing on specific posters, we can discuss more general things like warning signs that an e-mail may be phishing, posting with caution, etc.

BTGuy,

A thread topic could be about how grow vegetables indoors during the winter. People would make interesting suggestions about what grows better, and I can read with interest. Then I will see the Jothar post and it has nothing to do with vegetables. You know what the subject would be. lol

Can you provide me an example or two of where Jothar did this? I think your contention is exaggerated. There is way more disruption in the other threads from Jothar’s detractors.

Am I the only one who’s starting to think that the whole “fight” between Jothar and BTGuy and their teams of allies itself sounds strangely artificial?

I don’t think there is anything wrong with rooting for a sports team, though with several caveats:

1.) Proper context and perspective must be maintained. Many sports fans feel jubilant after their team wins, and depressed after their team loses. Some people feel real hatred towards their team’s rivals, or the rival team’s fans. I think all of this is wrong; it’s just a game, and should be seen as such.

2.) I think a person should root for their team, but not wrap their identity up into the team. This goes for other things too, such as career, school, etc.

3.) Watching a game on television or attending a game can be problematic, due to exposure to pritzus or coarse behavior. This might be a problem with some sports (football) more than others (baseball?).

I personally do follow several teams, but I don’t watch games on television (don’t even have cable/antenna television). I read the recaps and analyses, and sometimes watch the highlights online.

Don’t accept the label. Only you can say what you are. If you don’t want to be a nerd, then you are not a nerd!

It seems possible to me that YW Moderator-42 is using an object lesson to make a point to am yisrael chai, that revealing personal information in the CR (e.g., that am yisrael chai is a Kletzky) can lead to real life ramifications (having the Kletzky family contacted regarding the CR posts).

That’s all I think this is; after all, if AYC’s account was really locked, YW Moderator-42 would probably have noted such in his/her screenname subtitle, as is commonly done when other posters have their accounts locked.

ZeesKite,

Please, let it rest. You are generating much more disruption with this issue than Jothar is.

As far as a phone-call verified screen name, I personally don’t think that it would be feasible. In general, security and usability are inversely proportional, so a proper balance needs to be attained. Also, I feel that providing personal information such as a phone number to a Web site is in itself a security threat for the user.

I think the best path for greater security lies in the existing features of the CR: the posters and moderators. Posters should guard their personal information more closely, and moderators should be on the lookout to edit/delete posts that may compromise someone’s personal information, especially if the poster is young.

BTGuy,

You are sloppily creating loshon hora and dan lekaf zcheus issues for all of us by not handling your suspicions behind the scenes with email warnings or waiting for a real problem.

From what I’ve seen, Jothar has been making a case for better protection of users’ identities by pointing out threads that might be problematic, not posters, and making general recommendations to not share PII or other seemingly innocent information that can be combined to make PII. I read more than I post, and I have seen several instances in the CR where a poster attempts (or threatens/claims to attempt) to harm another poster “IRL” after the latter poster revealed enough information online to provide an identity. One example was an attempt by “mosherose” to have another poster thrown out of a shiur in real life (see http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/changed-topic-of-shiur-do-i-have-a-right-to-be-disappointed). I don’t think such behavior is ok, do you?

kol daveed,

Thanks for your response. I agree with all three of your points.