Avram in MD

soliek,

It seems to me that the two “sides” in this security debate are converging towards agreement.

I mostly agree with your blame-the-one-who-foolishly-gives-out-too-much-personal-information-and-let’s-get-on-with-it argument, but there are some cases where posters, especially younger ones, may not realize they are giving out enough information to uniquely identify themselves. This is where I see a place for the security discussion. Not witch hunts, not Joseph-hunting (he’s certainly not the only sock puppet maker here!), but just gentle words of caution. Like suggesting one write, “I was at my cousin’s wedding recently…” rather than, “I was at my older cousin’s wedding in St. Louis last night…”

Zeeskite,

And no, Joseph is NOT a dangerous person, right Joseph?

I confess that I have been interested in exposing the “Joseph” sock puppet accounts in the past, but stopped for two reasons.

1.) I realized after mistakenly labeling a poster as “Joseph” while following a mod’s lead in the past (sorry again, real-brisker!), that one of his tactics is to ensure a lot of collateral damage if anyone ever makes a concerted effort to find all of his screennames. Unfortunately, Am Yisrael Chai is probably the greatest victim of this collateral damage (Shticky Guy makes this point well when he notes that the mods suspected Joseph).

2.) Around the same time, I tried direct questions to Joseph because I wanted to know why he played his games, and got this creepy response.

As for why I was interested in exposing the Joseph sock puppets at all, I felt offended because he purported to be “defending” the Torah’s honor through using his less than savory methods, which undercut the message and ultimately was a chillul Hashem. I also feared that he was launching a straw-man sybil attack on Torah values – drumming up opposition to Torah true positions by presenting them in a confrontational, inflammatory manner.

To me, disrupting the CR and causing chillul Hashem is “dangerous” enough, but apparently other things have been going on behind the scenes as well.

That said, while I have obviously been on the side of those urging caution on the CR, I did not feel that the matter with AYC should have been handled in such a public manner. I agree with YW Moderator-42’s new position that suspected sock puppet accounts will be dealt with silently and via e-mail correspondence. I also agree with those who have said that threads more conducive to sharing personal details (rather than opinions/positions on issues) should receive more special care from the moderators, and perhaps a notice in the thread if things are getting out of hand or seem “off.”

Shticky Guy,

I have a big problem. I have received some emails from friends over the last few days. But are they posters here at ywn or not, if yes then dont I have to report them?

Surely you can differentiate between an unsolicited, unverifiable e-mail and a normal e-mail from friends. This seems like an attempt to discredit the appeal for greater caution through a straw man fallacy.

That said…

Jothar,

Is it possible to stop the conflation of the Joseph/AYC/speculations issue with the real issue of poster safety which is what prompted you to open this thread in the first place (note your OP says “no need to mention names”)? The title of this thread, Be aware of stalkers/info stealers is important to discuss and can be done without naming names. This needless speculation about specific posters only adds fuel to those criticizing greater caution because of the Orwellian feel, and brings people who would otherwise agree with the message of caution to the other “camp”, since the caution appeal becomes associated with personal attacks.

If the moderators suspect a specific poster of harassment, perhaps they can close the problematic thread with a note saying, “if you have been contacted by posterX, please e-mail the moderators.” Nothing more. As for this thread, perhaps rather than focusing on specific posters, we can discuss more general things like warning signs that an e-mail may be phishing, posting with caution, etc.

BTGuy,

A thread topic could be about how grow vegetables indoors during the winter. People would make interesting suggestions about what grows better, and I can read with interest. Then I will see the Jothar post and it has nothing to do with vegetables. You know what the subject would be. lol

Can you provide me an example or two of where Jothar did this? I think your contention is exaggerated. There is way more disruption in the other threads from Jothar’s detractors.

Am I the only one who’s starting to think that the whole “fight” between Jothar and BTGuy and their teams of allies itself sounds strangely artificial?

I don’t think there is anything wrong with rooting for a sports team, though with several caveats:

1.) Proper context and perspective must be maintained. Many sports fans feel jubilant after their team wins, and depressed after their team loses. Some people feel real hatred towards their team’s rivals, or the rival team’s fans. I think all of this is wrong; it’s just a game, and should be seen as such.

2.) I think a person should root for their team, but not wrap their identity up into the team. This goes for other things too, such as career, school, etc.

3.) Watching a game on television or attending a game can be problematic, due to exposure to pritzus or coarse behavior. This might be a problem with some sports (football) more than others (baseball?).

I personally do follow several teams, but I don’t watch games on television (don’t even have cable/antenna television). I read the recaps and analyses, and sometimes watch the highlights online.

Don’t accept the label. Only you can say what you are. If you don’t want to be a nerd, then you are not a nerd!

It seems possible to me that YW Moderator-42 is using an object lesson to make a point to am yisrael chai, that revealing personal information in the CR (e.g., that am yisrael chai is a Kletzky) can lead to real life ramifications (having the Kletzky family contacted regarding the CR posts).

That’s all I think this is; after all, if AYC’s account was really locked, YW Moderator-42 would probably have noted such in his/her screenname subtitle, as is commonly done when other posters have their accounts locked.

ZeesKite,

Please, let it rest. You are generating much more disruption with this issue than Jothar is.

As far as a phone-call verified screen name, I personally don’t think that it would be feasible. In general, security and usability are inversely proportional, so a proper balance needs to be attained. Also, I feel that providing personal information such as a phone number to a Web site is in itself a security threat for the user.

I think the best path for greater security lies in the existing features of the CR: the posters and moderators. Posters should guard their personal information more closely, and moderators should be on the lookout to edit/delete posts that may compromise someone’s personal information, especially if the poster is young.

BTGuy,

You are sloppily creating loshon hora and dan lekaf zcheus issues for all of us by not handling your suspicions behind the scenes with email warnings or waiting for a real problem.

From what I’ve seen, Jothar has been making a case for better protection of users’ identities by pointing out threads that might be problematic, not posters, and making general recommendations to not share PII or other seemingly innocent information that can be combined to make PII. I read more than I post, and I have seen several instances in the CR where a poster attempts (or threatens/claims to attempt) to harm another poster “IRL” after the latter poster revealed enough information online to provide an identity. One example was an attempt by “mosherose” to have another poster thrown out of a shiur in real life (see http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/changed-topic-of-shiur-do-i-have-a-right-to-be-disappointed). I don’t think such behavior is ok, do you?

kol daveed,

Thanks for your response. I agree with all three of your points.

If a missionary comes to the door, do not accept any of their materials, even if you think it would get them to go away faster, and even if you intend to throw it out right away. No matter how “resistant” you appear to their proselytizing, the missionary will mark your address down for a “follow-up” visit if you accept their materials.

“Victory for the Sun”… that names sounds Xian to me, as did a lot of the terminology Basket of Radishes used.

Feif Un,

Out of curiosity (I’m intending to ask, not challenge), what does/would the Rav say regarding the maris ayin of putting items into a turned-on oven on Shabbos, thus giving the appearance of baking on Shabbos? I remember learning that a big part of the reason for having a blech, for example, is so your action does not appear to be cooking. I can understand that, by taking things out of the oven by hand, it is obvious that they are not above yad soledes bo, but what about putting them in?

Wow, this debate is surprisingly cantankerous.

Droid,

Can someone please explain why Rav Moshe Feinstein zt’l in Vol. 2 Siman 95 of Orech Chaim in Igros Moshe says its worse to take off a yarmulka when going into a movie theater than to c’v go into a movie theater with a yamulka?

When a Jew wears a yarmulke into a place where he should not be, he begins to feel very uncomfortable. At that point, he can do one of two things: remove the yarmulke, or realize that if he’s uncomfortable wearing a yarmulke in that place, then perhaps he shouldn’t be there and leave. My guess is that Rav Moshe ZT”L preferred the second choice.

A yarmulke is like a megaphone for the neshama, it’s an amazing thing.

Hopefully I’m not wading into dangerous waters when I say this, but the MPAA ratings system is not really in “sync” with Jewish values. A rated “G” movie, while considered innocent and suitable for children by the surrounding secular culture, often contains ideas and images that are antithetical to Torah concepts, such as children rebelling against parents, shallow mindsets, immodest dress and behavior, etc. I know there are some films out there that may be fine for many, but we cannot rely on the MPAA ratings to protect our values.

I think you do have justification for feeling disappointed, though given the fact that the shiur was free as a public service, and the possibility that there may have been a miscommunication between the organizers and the presenter, I think you are also correct that you probably shouldn’t say anything.

I feel that the reason you may question whether you have the right to feel disappointed comes because what the shul is doing, offering a free shiur to the whole community plus dinner, is a very nice, upright thing to do. That factor acts as an emotional counterweight to your disappointment.

So here’s a parallel situation. Suppose I advertised in a paper that I wanted to give away a certain rare item for free . You have been interested in acquiring that very item for some time, so you make a long schlep over to my place to get the item (let’s assume you didn’t call to confirm, but somehow knew the item wasn’t taken yet). When you arrive, I say that I’ve changed my mind and want to keep the item, but here’s a different item for free that has the same monetary value. Would you feel disappointed? Would you have the right to? After all, your time was spent in getting there.

In the above case, I wouldn’t think “damages” should be paid, but a statement of “I came a long way and unfortunately this wasn’t the item I was expecting” followed by an apology to you would seemingly be justified. After all, it was my advertisement that was responsible for bringing you out.

ZeesKite,

For some reason, I think that most moderators shy away from undoing changes made by another moderator. For example, if one moderator rejects a post, it’s unlikely that another moderator will come and unreject it. There may, however, be a way around this in the case of your subtitle.

Try posting to the request-a-subtitle thread from a while back, and specifically state what you want your subtitle to be. That way, the moderator won’t be “undoing” another moderator’s changes, but rather fulfilling the wishes of the user.

minyan gal,

Avram: Am I correct in assuming that you are a meteorologist?

Yes. I am not a television weathercaster, however, nor do I work for a television or radio station.

One of the few jobs you could have that being wrong won’t cause you to lose your job. I wonder if managers even have to do annual performance appraisals

Actually, any forecast can be quantitatively verified, so managers can indeed see who is skillful and who is not.

The problem is, meteorologists issue probabilistic forecasts (50% chance of rain) that the public interprets as deterministic (it WILL rain), so when it doesn’t rain, the meteorologist is “wrong.” Better communication of forecast data to the public is a big concern of meteorologists.

Given the Alabama tornadoes a while back as an example, meteorologists in Norman, OK, indicated a risk for a severe weather/tornado outbreak 5 days in advance. The day of the outbreak, they issued a “high risk” outlook for violent tornadoes, and issued “Particularly Dangerous Situation” tornado watches. When the tornadoes developed, I think there was an average of more than 20 minutes of warning before the storms arrived. I’d say that was a pretty good forecasting job.

I’ll admit though, I am biased.

It doesn’t seem to me that real-brisker and Joseph have matching posting styles.

gefen,

why is it not honest to have more than one screen name? this is all supposed to be anonymous anyway. so what’s the diff?

A user with multiple screennames can hijack forums – giving the impression that the “masses” hold one view, for example, or attacking an opposing viewpoint through use of a straw man sockpuppet (e.g., creating a username that “holds” the opposing viewpoint but makes stupid, irrational, or hateful comments and arguments, with the goal of stirring up animosity towards that viewpoint through guilt by association).

This is (mostly) an anonymous forum with respect to the real world, but it is not anonymous within its own context – users tend to associate each screenname with a unique individual, so if someone uses multiple screennames, he dishonestly creates the impression that multiple people are posting.

From the OP:

Do you try to find a Minyan or just daven alone?

That would depend on both the trip’s required schedule of events and the availability/closeness of a minyan. For example, if I didn’t have a rental car and the closest minyan was driving distance only, I would most likely not fool with an unfamiliar public transit system to get there.

Do you bring food or buy on the road? (even if there is no kosher restaurants you can always find plenty of Kosher food at a grocery store with the OU on it)…

I’d map the location where I was staying before leaving to gain familiarity with the local grocery stores. I would also bring supplies.

What happens if you have to go out to dinner with a client and there is no Kosher restaurants around?

I would request to have the meeting location at the hotel/office. Fortunately in my work, we don’t have business lunches/dinners like that, and if I’m invited, I can politely refuse or change the locale per my organization’s protocols, so I’ve never had to ask a shaila.

Shaking hands with the opposite sex in a business setting?

I would avoid it.

Note that these are my personal answers, not a directive for others.

WolfishMusings:

Joseph:

Has maris ayin been repealed from our laws?

Why? Did you really think that I was grilling George Foreman in the grill? Would anyone think that?

It seems apparent to me from the context that Joseph was referring to entering a non-kosher restaurant, not using a portable grill to prepare kosher meat. So unless you were grilling some meat on your portable grill and then bringing it into a non-kosher restaurant to eat, I don’t think he was referring to you.

The Holocaust Museum Cafe is not kosher, but there are sealed kosher products (e.g., parve sandwiches, noodle salad) available in the cafe that were brought in from a kosher caterer. There are also things like sealed bags of chips (OU) on sale at the cafe. Make sure to check for the seal on the sandwich, as the cafe serves similar products that are NOT kosher. Many of the cafe staff are aware of the issues, and can help steer frum customers to the right stuff.

Eli’s is a great meat restaurant in the District.

The largest frum communities in the DC area are in Silver Spring, and there are a larger variety of shuls and kosher restaurants in Silver Spring and Rockville (to the west), some of which provide kosher sukkos.

A good resource for any Jewish traveler to the DC area is the Washington Vaad’s (capitol k) Web site (just Google Washington Vaad and you’ll find it). They provide a list of all Vaad supervised establishments and a list of affiliated shuls.

WolfishMusings,

While I personally would disagree with the decision to restrict men from a graduation, assuming there were no performances or the like, and similarly I would disagree with “photoshopping” out pictures of modestly clad women in a newspaper, I think that it’s possible that you are working with a different definition of “improper thoughts” than those who are disagreeing with you.

A question: suppose a large group of healthy, normal men were shown two pictures, one of an attractive woman, and one of a tree. Following this, they are polled on which picture they liked better. Or, better yet, film their eyes and record the length of time that they focused on each picture. Which picture do you think would “win”?

Another question: why don’t advertisers put pictures of trees next to sports cars they are selling?

These realities are part of being a normal man; however, as Jews, I think we should attempt to keep all of our focus solely on our wives, since that is where kedusha and appropriateness are found.

popa_bar_abba,

He says that Hashem did not care as much when making chava, because she is just there to assist odom. That is why women have more health problems than men, and more day to day issues. (or month to month).

This to me is the most disturbing one.

And later you said:

I’m just paraphrasing what he says. Take it up with him.

A paraphrase is not a literal translation. It is a rewording done usually to explain another’s concept in one’s own terms. Are you sure you haven’t interjected your own interpretation of the Ralbag’s comments into your paraphrase? Perhaps you can post the actual text of the comments?

Specifically, do you think that Ralbag meant to say that Hashem would create something “buggy”, G-d forbid, due to lack of care (i.e., attention to detail) in the “process”, which implies fallibility? Somehow I don’t think so, but that is what your paraphrase suggests. I would think that the Ralbag would agree that every aspect of Hashem’s creation was done purposefully.

Healthy women in general experience more physical pain and weakness than equivalently healthy men due to their makeup. I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that statement. That this is related to a woman being a helper against Adam makes for an interesting discussion. I don’t see why misogyny needs to be injected into that discussion, however.

Clairvoyant,

When I ran her request, I returned 7 cartons of milk:-)

The pseudocode for her request:

totalCartonsMilk = 1 # She asked to get 1 carton of milk separate from the if-statement.

if(eggs) {

totalCartonsMilk = totalCartonsMilk + 6

}

return totalCartonsMilk