Avram in MD

zahavasdad,

There was a female Chassidic “Rebbe”

The Maiden of Ludmir (Hannah Rachel Verbermacher)

From a brief look at her Wikipedia entry, her behavior (acting like a chasidic rebbe) provoked a lot of opposition, and she asked a shaila of the Maggid of Chernobyl, who advised her to stop those practices, which she did.

benignuman,

I need to think about it. It does seem somewhat disturbing that we would be held hostage like that by the actions of outsiders.

A unique facet of Torah law is that the intention of a person plays a significant role in the halacha. Maasei Shabbos is an example, where the permissibility of benefiting from the melacha (forbidden labor on Shabbos) may be different depending on whether the melacha was performed b’shogeig (unintentionally) or b’meizid (intentionally).

Charliehall above makes a strong argument based on historical precedents in favor of a sort of ordination of women – and his points seem good; however, it is quite apparent that arguments like these are coming as a result of the push for women’s ordination, rather than as the driver.

In other words, if there was a situation impacting mitzah observance in the Torah community, and some feel that a group of women who are certified to answer specific shailos would increase the ability of the community to observe the mitzvos, then these arguments may hold water to a broader segment of the community. It seems pretty clear, however, that the motivation by the activists pushing for ordination is coming from somewhere outside of the Torah community, and these halachic arguments are coming ex post facto.

Therefore, it is not the halacha that is held hostage by the actions of outsiders, but the motivations of YCT, etc.

yungerman1,

Again, giving birth is sakonos nefashos- which is why you are allowed to be mechalel shabbos to drive to the hospital.

So what? Should I drive my family to the hospital if our furnace goes out on Shabbos in January? Where have I said that melacha should not be done for a woman in labor?

Lets define “preferable”. To the comfort of the mother- maybe for some, and only if they dont want any pain relief medication.

Pain medication dramatically increases the likelihood of cesarean section in the hospital. C-section increases the risk for maternal mortality. U.S. is 41st out of 171 nations in maternal mortality rates, and the rate is increasing dramatically (along with the C-section rate). In fact, it has quadrupled. At some hospitals the C-section rate tops 50%. And if you think, “well, C-sections are better for baby, at any rate!” think again. For a singleton presenting head down at full term, the risk of neonatal death is 0.62 per 1000 when Hashem’s designed delivery is used. That risk jumps to 1.77 with a C-section. Did our Creator really design us so poorly that almost half of women need to be cut open to get the baby out? Also, 66% of “emergency” cesareans are performed during the daytime (e.g., normal business hours – most convenient for the OB). Why?

So a women who decides on a home birth, is most definitely increasing the risk to herself,

The exact opposite seems to be the case.

and exponentially so to the infant.

Exponentially? Really? Not even Health made that claim.

Here’s the results of a study called Outcomes of Intended Home Births in Nurse-Midwifery Practice: A Prospective Descriptive Study, which was published in Volume 92, No. 3 of The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists:

Of 1404 enrolled women intending home births,

6% miscarried, terminated the pregnancy or changed plans.

Another 7.4% became ineligible for home birth prior to the

onset of labor at term due to the development of perinatal

problems and were referred for planned hospital birth. Of

those women beginning labor with the intention of delivering

at home, 102 (8.3%) were transferred to the hospital

during labor. Ten mothers (0.8%) were transferred to the

hospital after delivery, and 14 infants (1.1%) were transferred

after birth. Overall intrapartal fetal and neonatal

mortality for women beginning labor with the intention of

delivering at home was 2.5 per 1000. For women actually

delivering at home, intrapartal fetal and neonatal mortality

was 1.8 per 1000.

By comparison, the overall neonatal mortality rate for whites (the rate is significantly higher for blacks) in New York in 2007 was 3.27 per 1000 births. In Maryland it was 3.54, New Jersey 2.86. For women intending to deliver at home under the care of certified nurse midwives, including those who were transferred to hospitals for delivery due to problems with either mother or baby, the rate was 2.5.

Not sure where this tripling (or exponential increase) of the infant mortality rate is coming from. Probably home births that are not properly supervised, which we all agree is a bad idea.

Naysberg,

How far below the knee should a skirt be?

At least 4 to 6 feet. Stilts are recommended to avoid having the skirt drag on the floor. 🙂

I hope this answer is serious enough for your serious question.

Logician,

Avram – The Halacha remains that it is Sakanos Nefashos

I didn’t dispute the halacha in my response. I’m not even sure why we are bringing sakanos nefashos into this conversation, because childbirth is a sakanos nefashos whether the woman is in the hospital or at home. Therefore, if you object to my use of the term “safe” for home birth on the grounds of sakanos nefashos, then you must also object to calling a hospital birth safe.

I see the debate here as not about whether birth is a sakanos nefashos, which is a constant yes, but whether a planned home birth is preferable to a hospital birth.

All,

Let’s deconstruct this thread a little bit.

First, popa_bar_abba signed his OP as “the little red hen.” In that story, the little red hen asked some other barnyard critters for help planting wheat, then tending to it, reaping it, threshing it, milling it, baking, etc. At each stage, the other critters refused to help. When it came time to eat the bread, however, all of the critters jumped up to “help”, but the little red hen refused them, and ate the whole loaf herself.

In the blood donation case, the “little red hen” (the OP) can bake the bread but cannot eat it, while the “barnyard critters” (the other posters) can eat or bake the bread but cannot bake any for the little red hen. So, the hen is asking (in popa_bar_abba’s classically inflammatory way), “why should I go through the trouble to bake bread for all you critters???”

I cannot guess what popa_bar_abba wanted as a response. We could thank him for his baking, or mock him for his blood type I suppose:-) I think he was expecting to be attacked for his anti-Semitic tone, but I don’t think he was expecting a wave of “who cares whether you can eat our bread or not… keep baking bread for us anyway because we’re hungry!”

Unlike popa, however, I don’t interpret those responses as a sign of “entitlement.” To be in a position of need is difficult emotionally, so for a giver to act scornfully towards the receiver is cruel. People are responding negatively to this cruelty, but are missing the mark on what exactly about popa’s post is bothering them.

nitpicker,

you seem to be arguing with me, but there is not much difference in what you said and what I said.

I certainly didn’t intend to bother you with an argument. Convenience (the term you used) indicates something that eases difficulty, but does not imply requirement. I contend that the order of operations are a requirement, not a convenience or “best practice.” To perform the calculation above “in sequence”, therefore in my view, is incorrect. That’s all I was trying to say. Sorry for nitpicking:-)

longarekel,

well, here’s what I think. For most people, daf yomi is a waste of time.

I would be very careful about bashing other people’s learning like this. If my toddler gives me a picture of me and her holding hands, and in the typical toddler style they are two heads with long stick legs sticking out and the arms coming out of the sides of the head, and I know it took her only 5 minutes to draw it, I would be delighted by her attempt to connect with me in her own way. If an older sibling insulted the picture in front of her – after all, there are much better ways to draw a picture – I would feel upset with this sibling.

Yes, I understand and even agree with your concerns. One should not stand in place, doing nothing to rise higher. One who CAN learn on a deeper level should. The 15 year old shouldn’t think that a 5 minute stick figure drawing fulfills his obligations towards his parents. Still, the way you worded things was hurtful and derogatory towards those engaged in the study of Hashem’s Torah, and I don’t think that’s what Hashem wants us to do. There is a reason, after all, that the rebbeim you know are discreet about their concerns.

For people who don’t spend all day learning the daf-in depth and until halacha l’ma’aseh(and that’s the vast majority of people) it is an illusion created by he yetzer hara.

These are pretty strong words. Are you implying that the gemara should be closed to those who don’t have all day to learn it?

A person thinks he is ‘finishing’ masechtos when in truth he knows almost no Torah at all.

This may be true for some. It may not be for others.

How many people making the ‘siyum’ on shas will actually know shas, or even one masechta, or I dare say-even one perek?

I think that to put siyum in quotation marks is quite derogatory and uncalled for.

Instead, the precious time spent daily on Torah study should be focused on aquiring knowledge of halacha l’ma’ase like shabbos ribbis issur v’heter ona’ah yichud tahara brachos etc.

This is a valid argument, and I’m sure that a person serious about his learning discusses his learning with his rav.

Slowly, day after day, with a serious commitment, one can become a very real talmid chacham.

This is also a goal that can be corrupted by the yetzer hara. The ultimate goal of Torah learning is to come closer to Hashem, whether or not you have the ability to become a talmid chacham.

The yetzer hara knows this and therefore gets people to ‘learn’ daf yomi, make siyumim, and provide the illusion of knowing vast amounts of Torah, when in truth one remains more or less the same am ha’aretz he was 7 and a-half years ago.

It’s not the daf yomi that causes this, but rather a person who doesn’t grow from his learning. Some may grow learning the daf, others may need to use a different approach. Interestingly, there was a thread here in the CR a while back where the OP complained of the exact opposite: of yeshiva classes that “kvetched” over a single sugya for the whole semester, leaving the rest of the gemara a closed book.

I personally lean towards the more in depth approach. For me, I find it more important to make a piece of gemara mine, to get it down and understand it, then to cover a lot of ground. I certainly wouldn’t bash other people’s learning, however.

We are not fooled or impressed by grand ‘siyumim’ at big stadiums or ‘frum’ newspapers and magazines and organizations telling us what a big kiddush hashem it is.

I think this comment risks being an insult to the gedolim who attend the siyum, and who consider it a big kiddush Hashem. Are you smarter than them?

Instead I suggest we start having shiurim on halacha topics that matter, mixed with words of aggada and yiras shamayim

I think this is a great idea, and there are such shiurim in my community (and they don’t compete with or have rivalries with the daf yomi shiur, either).

as all jewish communities did from time immemorial until recently when this was all substituted for the daily daf.

Gemara wasn’t studied in previous Jewish communities?

It is time we stood up for the honor of Hashem and the honor of his Torah.

These are nice words, but make sure to not stand up for your ideas of honor while stomping on others’ honors to Hashem and His Torah.

gabie,

Avram: Have you often seen topics of discussion here be used externally from this site as fodder to attack the frum or make us seem backwards?

Often, no. Sometimes, yes. I’ve also seen it here.

WolfishMusings,

The only reason that the siddur (in your case) is special, is because it has sentimental value *to you*.

Actually, the OP made no mention of emotional attachment. He provided two examples of why he thought a siddur was a “davar kedusha.” The first example implied an emotional connection. The second (using a shul siddur that others have prayed in) did not. I don’t think he intended his two examples to be exclusive to others as to why a siddur is a “davar kedusha.”

However, based on your argument, I should only daven from sidduring in which I have an emotional attachment and not any old siddur “off the shelf.”

Can you really show that from the OP? Seems like you are drawing inferences from the OP based on projections of your own bias. Especially since the siddur “off the shelf” was his second example.

In fact, the siddur I use was one I bought new in my teens. I still use it today because about 17 years ago, my son got a hold of it and scribbled on some of the pages. Now, whenever I use it, I have a very visible reminder of what I need to daven for.

Very nice.

However, according to your theory, I should not have this because when I bought the siddur it was new and did not have the emotional attachment equating to one that my grandmother cried in.

Again, creating an argument based on a theory that didn’t exist in the OP.

The Wolf (who is *sure* that someone’s going to tell him that he’s disrespecting HKBH by using a siddur with a child’s scribbles in it.)

Unwarranted assumption from bias. What makes you so sure?

WolfishMusings,

Here’s what my personal translator/ellucidator came up with:

I am a [untranslatable] Jewish and religious teenager in a Jewish and religious high school. [Due to the fact that I attend this high school,] I feel that I’m not accomplishing [as much] chessed as a girl [my age] should be accomplishing. [This lack of accomplishment is because] I’m too busy with my studies. not quite sure whether I should [accept this and] focus [most of my time] on my studies now and [make up for lost chessed time by] focusing on chessed after my [graduation from] seminary, [or whether I should decrease my focus on my high school studies to make more time for chessed now]. I’m not sure if [the readers of this Web site] understand [my] question [above], but let me know [through responses on this thread] what you think.

Let me know if that is helpful to you 🙂

Feif Un,

Would you wear your pajamas to work? They’re quite comfortable…

These are just my opinions:

1.) The hotel provides soap and shampoo for its customers to use while they stay in the hotel. The cost to provide these amenities is NOT trivial.

2.) For sanitary reasons, once a bottle of soap or container of shampoo is opened, it cannot be reused and will be thrown out.

Therefore, one should only use the amount of shampoo and soap needed to shower. I think it is petty theft to hide or pack unused shampoo or soap each day (whether opened or not) so that the staff provides new bottles that they otherwise would not have provided. On the last day of the stay, however, any remaining unused shampoo or soap is ok to take, since it is effectively garbage to the hotel. If you are unsure about this, ask the front desk. I think the same principle applies for condiment packages in restaurants (e.g., ketchup packets). The condiments cost a lot of money, and are provided with the intention of use with the food you are buying right then from the restaurant – not to stock your kitchen.

As for the magnetic key cards, the hotel can reuse these and they should be returned unless you are told otherwise by the staff. I once accidentally took a magnetic key with me. I called the hotel from the road (wife was driving, don’t worry) to ask for their mailing address, and they said not to worry and to keep it.

Ctrl Alt Del,

Avram, my point is valid either way.

I’m not sure about that. You posited that our sages brought the 18 vertebrae of the spine as a motivator to the stupid masses for davening Shemoneh Esrei – but it was not meant as a motivator at all, just a connection (or an explanation of bowing during the Shemoneh Esrei). Nothing was said to the effect of, “you should daven all 18 brachos because they represent your spine…” That’s a straw man you made up.

Iss shver tzuzein a yid back then too.

Actually, I disagree with this premise too. Literacy rates for Jews was quite high, certainly much higher than in the surrounding populace. In places like Vilna even the simple Jews were engaged in learning. This is not to say that there have been periods and places where education suffered tremendously, but I would think that someone learning Gemara (where you would come across this vertebrae reference) was not a “schlep”, especially since, a few pages before the vertebrae reference, the Gemara discusses the very reasons for our tefillos (in place of the korbonos) that you claim the schlep couldn’t understand.

Yes, they didn’t have x-rays back then so they did the best they could.

I think it’s incorrect to assume that the slope of technological and scientific advancement with time was always positive (e.g., the further back in time, the more ignorant). During the time of the Gemara, batteries were in use across the Middle East. The Romans had indoor plumbing. Egyptians practiced surgery. The period right after the Middle Ages was called the Renaissance, meaning a revival, because a lot of the advancements came through rediscovery of things the ancients knew but were subsequently forgotten. I think it’s quite reasonable to assume that the sages of the gemara knew what a human spine looked like – and that we are simply unfamiliar with their particular method of categorization.

WolfishMusings,

My belief in Judaism is quite strong.

according to that opinion

there were some people who felt

I’m sure that someone will tell me that I’m transgressing

I doubted a story about a woman being in a coma for 73 years and was called a Kofer for it

Because I’ve been told that all of those are violations of halacha in one way or another

This may come as a surprise to you, but Judaism is not defined as:

if(someone’s opinion is different from WolfishMusings’ opinion) {

WolfishMusings is doomed.

}

if(someone is an internet troll on YWN yelling “apikorus”) {

someone is a spokesman for authentic Judaism

see above

}

Ctrl Alt Del,

I think I saw the reference to the 18 brachos of Shemoneh Esrei corresponding to the 18 bones in the spine brought in the Gemara (4th perek of Brachos), which would not make it some middle ages mystical thought to have. As I recall, the reference to the spine was brought in a discussion of how to bow during Shemoneh Esrei (if physically capable, one should bow deeply enough so that the bones of the spine in your back protruded).

Now, I doubt that the Tanaaim were unfamiliar with the human spine. How they were counting was likely different than how we count today (perhaps they didn’t count the portion of the spine in the neck as part of the 18, for example, since we were talking about the position of the back when bowing). I’m not an expert on anatomy.

WolfishMusings,

Because then, according to that opinion, I am, once again, doing something wrong.

Ok… but why would that bother you?

WolfishMusings,

I’ve given you plenty of reasons to come beat me up above in this thread. Form a bais din and come do so.

I don’t know about your family, but my wife would be pretty upset with me and scared if I posted something like that to the Internet where potentially unstable people could read it.

WolfishMusings,

If something that is said regarding rabbiofberlin can be applied to you (ROB = X, Wolf = ROB, therefore Wolf = X), then it follows that things said regarding you can be applied to others.

WolfishMusings,

I doubted a story about a woman being in a coma for 73 years and was called a Kofer for it.

Being able to Fargin; Nature or Nurture?

You are rabbiofberlin? (since in the post you linked us to it was ROB who was called the “koifer”)

I think graphology is a fun recreational activity (e.g., analyzing each others’ handwriting at a party for laughs), but it really is so subjective and that I don’t think it should be used beyond games. Just imagine a scenario where an employer rejects an applicant because of “something” he or she saw in the applicant’s handwriting sample.

If it offended you, I apologize for my “doodyhead” comment.

Once things sunk to that low, I thought that perhaps the mods should institute a nap time after apple juice and snacks 🙂

Also, why do we venerate Pinchas ben Elozar ben Aharon ha’Cohen? Was not he very violent? What about Yehoshua bin Nun, who presided over the slaughter of the freedom-loving(read: aveiros-loving) Kena’anim?

Irrelevant comparisons unless you are suggesting that Pinchas ben Elazar spat on an 8 year old Jewish girl who had committed no sins, or that spitting on a modestly dressed girl is codified in the Torah, heaven forbid!

This is nuts, absolutely nuts.

I care about shemiras einayim and hilchos tznius. I am personally bothered when people are lax with these halachos. But these protesters are so warped in their actions that I can’t believe anyone here is attempting to mount a defense for them.

Let’s not even get into the spitting on an 8-year old yet. That’s in a league of its own. Why are these protesters even there? If what “Health” says is true, that they can see immodestly dressed women from their windows due to this school, how on earth can they justify running up to the school to get a closer look (while yelling at them of course)? Would a person concerned about exposure to radiation protest a nuclear power plant being built across the street from his house by running into the radioactive core? Pure shemiras einayim cannot be their motivation, because if it were, it would be their WIVES out there protesting. The men would stay as far away from the school as they could, choosing instead to complain through other channels. My wife would never want me to place myself in a situation where it would be certain that I would see pritzus. In fact, to do that is a violation of halacha.

Now for the spitting. Some (or one) here have attempted to say, “the MO started it, so they have the blame for inflaming the crazies.” Excuse me? That’s an argument little children use. Real adults take responsibility for their actions, no matter what instigated the situation. If I assault a guy who cut me off in traffic, do you think the cops will excuse me if I said, “but he started it, he had it coming! He shoulda known that there are crazy people around!” Another argument made here to defend these men is “maybe the children are dressed ok, but the problem is the mothers walking the children to school are immodest…” Well then, why was it the 8-year old girl who got spit on? Did the monster miss the mother and hit the girl by mistake? Maybe he was accidentally facing children when hurling epithets and meant to face the mothers? I don’t think so.

Unfortunately we do have a tznius problem, and I think some people here are afraid that if they fully condemned the spitter, they would somehow be yielding ground in their argument. But this crime was not about tznius. If we allow tznius to be co-opted by sheer perversion, to be used as a weapon by debauched individuals to violate women with the veneer of “holiness”, then we lose everything.

Misogyny is not a mitzvah.

Hi WolfishMusings,

I was wondering if you had any responses to my replies to you here.

Thanks!