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WIY,
What would you do if someone started enthusiastically telling you a joke … very … slowly … with an unfunny punchline, and then placed a bag of pretzels on his baby’s head?
oomis,
I said this earlier, I am beginning to think it is a generational thing, this difference of opinion.
I disagree that this is a generational thing. There were neglectful parents and careful parents 30 years ago, and there are neglectful parents and careful parents today. I’m sure that 30 years ago there were differences in opinion among parents regarding what was safe or not safe, just like we see in this discussion. And I’d bet a pound of grain that there were grandparents looking askance at the parenting of their children’s generation. Ain kol chadash tachas hashemmesh.
I personally would never do what the OP described with one of my infants, because from my perception of what he’s describing, it sounds uncomfortable and unsafe for the infant. At the end of the day, however, I did not witness what this specific mother did, what led up to it, what followed it, what her thought processes were at the time – I know very few of the actual facts. If the OP had asked, “do you think it’s a good idea to place your infant directly into the toddler seat of a shopping cart on his back and then put food on top of him,” I would have given a resounding no. What the OP wants from us, however, is to judge a specific mother’s care for her children, a mother who he alone saw, and only for a moment in time. Every parent makes mistakes they later regret. Some parents are truly neglectful. We don’t know what this was. Would any parent want someone to step in right at the moment they make a mistake with their child, and then post this mistake to the Internet looking for a chorus of boos? I am NOT comfortable with that – especially since others are using it as a platform to bash young Jewish parents in general.
rationalfrummie,
LAB- if its really that black and white as you say, what happens to eilu v’eilu?
This is just my opinion. Torah was given to the Jewish people to be followed as an eternal system. A framework is established, but many of the details are left for the Jewish people to delve into, and more than one possibility can arise within the framework. In this way, Torah can be just as relevant to an agrarian, bronze age culture as it is to an urbanized, “internet-of-things” culture. Our mesora provides us with the tools to authentically mine the Torah for wisdom, and protects us from going down paths that may take us outside of the eternal framework.
oyyoyyoy,
is it better to not do something cause your a good prson, or cause hashem said so. killing for example
What defines a good person is societally and culturally dependent, as oomis eloquently described. What one society considers morally repugnant behavior another might see as great virtue.
Some behaviors, such as killing and stealing, seem to carry a greater universal morality than others, such as dietary laws. I believe this sense of heightened morality comes from the fact that societies cannot be built or maintained unless these behaviors are curtailed. Therefore, there are some basic moral concepts that all humans, who are social creatures, instinctively adopt. Also, we are wired to feel empathy, so most humans can develop a sense of, “what is hateful to me, do not do to others.”
Torah changes the entire ball game. Instead of morality from within, which can be influenced by environment, culture, and society, Torah gives us morality from Heaven. Some of that morality will line up with our instincts, but some will not. Building a society around this heavenly moral code is what the Jewish people are all about.
HaKatan,
Am I to suppose, since you did not respond, that you do not have an answer for what the Jewish people should do in order to make teshuva now that a state has existed for over 60 years, and the Jewish population has swelled to nearly 6 million? If you cannot say what should be done, then what is the use of your ranting against Zionism, as it won’t effect any change?
Also, if you are interested in learning Gemara, there is Rabbi Ayson Englander’s “Fundamentals of Talmud” (Yesodei HaTorah) program, which provides the tools to get started with learning Gemara. I think this program is best done with a shiur, but it can also be learned independently.
Artscroll publishes a daily learning program called A Daily Dose of Torah. Each day’s learning is designed to take about 15-20 minutes to complete. Each day, includes thoughts on the weekly parsha (Torah portion read on Shabbos), mishna, gemara, halacha, the siddur (prayer), and a question. This material can be learned independently or with someone else. They currently have 3 sets out, with each set designed to last for a year. This might be a good place to start!
Agreed with notasheep that juice really shouldn’t be given to an infant under a year. I was thinking toddlers in my post.
Is water a better choice than apple juice? Yes. Is it insane and cruel to give apple juice? No.
Apple juice does have a lot of sugar, but at least it is natural fruit based sugar (assuming 100% apple juice is given), which is not as bad as processed sugars or high fructose corn syrup. It’s probably not a good idea to give it “constantly”, but sometimes is fine.
I would argue that apple juice would be a good thing to give to a sick child (assuming it doesn’t bother his/her stomach), since sick kids often eat little, and the juice can provide extra energy and electrolytes.
One suggestion would be to mix the apple juice with water – this makes the juice less sugary and irritating.
HaKatan,
There are very strong anti-Zionists who live under Israeli rule.
But since “Israeli rule” came about due to Zionism, they certainly do not see that situation as desirable. I want to know what your idea is for where we should go from here, if we woke up one morning and Zionist ideology was gone.
One has nothing to do with the other.
The fact of Israeli rule has everything to do with Zionism. Zionism brought about the State of Israel.
I have heard a lot about how Zionism is idolatry, how it’s evil, how it’s shmad, etc. Fine. What I’d like to know is, what is your plan if you could do something about it?
The Zionist usurpers came and decided to create their abominable State in Eretz Yisrael.
But it’s done. 65 years ago. Now there’s nearly 6 million Jews living there, and hundreds of millions of Arabs surrounding those Jews who hate them with every fiber of their beings. So where do we go from here?? I’m honestly curious about your ideas. Suppose all 6 million Israelis came around to your way of thinking.
That is not, in and of itself, a reason to leave Eretz Yisrael.
That’s sidestepping my question. What do we do about the State of Israel?
there are many theoretical possibilities in between, CH”V, shmad and hisgarus baUmos versus large-scale suicide.
Ok! So what are some of these possibilities? You can’t just tear down without building up.
WIY,
I still don’t feel comfortable judging her because there’s no way for me to know all of the circumstances. What you describe though does sound unsafe and uncomfortable, and shouldn’t be done.
If the child is too young to be asked permission then don’t do it.
This reasoning is being used to attack bris milah all over the Western world.
WIY,
The baby was not in any seat just lying across the width of the top small section of the shopping cart
That does sound strange to me. Was the baby lying on a blanket or something at least?
HaKatan,
Suppose every Israeli woke up this morning and said, “you know what, HaKatan was right all along. Zionism is avoda zara.” What exactly should their next step be? To surrender to Hamas?
Juror number 4 just ate the defendant with french fries!
SecularFrummy,
Why is it considered derogatory to call someone a socialist?
Probably because many Americans associate socialism with communism, and the U.S. historically hasn’t had the greatest relationships with communist regimes.
WIY,
I was shopping in the supermarket and I saw a frum woman
Would your reaction had been the same if she weren’t Jewish?
had her baby (maybe 3-5 month old) in the wagon it was the top part so she had him lying across the width.
In a carrier?
What bothered me is that she had a lot of stuff in the wagon it was really full so she put some lighter stuff ON THE BABY. I was shocked.
There’s not enough information for me to share your shock. Was the food directly on top of baby, or by his/her feet? What was the baby’s reaction? Was s/he distressed? Played with the food? Asleep?
Is this how you treat a human being?!
I put things on my lap all of the time. If the baby wasn’t bothered, was it such a big deal? Were you concerned about safety, or the baby’s dignity?
Am I oversensitive or do you agree this is wrong?
Not enough information to answer.
I admittedly have very little knowledge about this topic; however, it seems to me that policies such as “iron clad no TV access”, while well intentioned, are essentially blind criteria that weed out without requiring any effort on the part of the school. From what I’ve read, a yeshiva used to examine each prospective talmid – ask them questions, get to know them. That way, the school could prepare to teach the student appropriately, and if for some reason it was not a good situation to admit the student, e.g., he held strong opinions that the rebbe felt was dangerous to the spiritual well being of other students, then another solution could be found.
DaMoshe,
He once told me that there are times he regrets becoming frum again, just because he hears from so many people how being Modern Orthodox is against halachah, how being a Zionist is apikorsis, etc. He said, “If I’m doing wrong anyway, if I’m an apikores anyway, why should I bother trying?
In this world, there is nothing that anyone can do that someone else won’t disagree with. If a person has explored the options and made a choice, why favor the opinions of those who disagree with that choice instead of associating with those who would make the same choice? There are billions of Christians and Muslims who think we are all wrong about our religion; many of them believe we are going to burn in the afterlife because of it. Should I abandon Judaism because they say this to me?
If you are MO, Hareidim will disagree with you. If you are Hareidi, MO will disagree with you. If you became Chabad, Satmar would disagree with you. If you became Satmar, Breslov would disagree with you. I have heard religious Zionists insinuate that Jews who do not say hallel on Yom Yerushalayim may potentially face consequences after 120 because they did not appreciate Hashem’s miracles performed for them. I have heard others state that Jews not living in eretz Yisroel will have a diminished status when Moshiach comes and may not be allowed into the land at all because they didn’t appreciate it. Should non-Zionist Hareidim stop being frum because this was said about them?
My point is, serve Hashem with all of your heart, all of your soul, and all of your strength. That’s the best any human can hope to do, and Hashem is far more gracious and compassionate than humans.
rebyidd23,
The ketchup-hating taking the place of any other problems, without ketchup, we’re practically perfect.
Granted, ketchup haters probably have an easier time with the laundry.
One of the true evils of ketchup is that it is distributed in tiny packets or hard to pour bottles. Gallon jugs or converted cement mixers would be more suited to supply sufficient ketchup for french fries and chicken nuggets. 🙂
Little Froggie,
Anyone specific?
No worries, trolls and immature children are mammals, not amphibians. 🙂
oomis,
I would agree 100% were it not for the fact that unfortunately in too many cases,though not all, the type of man who would refuse (as per halachic mandate) to give his wife a GET, is probably not the safest bet for strengthening that marriage.
You make an excellent point. Clearly a fundamental part of creating good marriages is educating young women and men about taking time to watch out for potential warning signs of abusive tendencies. Gila Manolson has an excellent section about this in one of her books about dating.
zahavasdad,
Hebrew Institute of Riverdale is the smallest shul in Riverdale.
I know I’m about to prove a variation of Godwin’s Law here, but … by your logic, since Al Qaida is one of the smallest groups in the Islamic world, they have little influence outside of their sphere and nobody should worry about them, right?
notasheep,
For those who are attacking me
I apologize for making you feel attacked. I think we had very different interpretations of the example you gave from the book. In end end, your personal example was no different than what I or any other normal parent would do. I wasn’t objecting to saying no to a baby, in fact, I think it’s very important to communicate with them what’s going on verbally as it’s done (no no, this is dangerous, or, I’m going to change your diaper now). I was objecting to the idea of exploiting baby’s natural curiosity to create a punishment situation in order to “train” him. I should have made it more clear throughout the discussion that my issue was with the book, so I apologize.
my point was that many people will put a review on something they have heard about merely to discredit it, when they have not read it themselves.
I absolutely agree with your sentiment here; but unfortunately in the case of this particular book, the raging reviewers are on the right track.
I agree with you that there is a dangerous trend towards permissiveness among many parents, and that parental authority is under assault in the present culture. I don’t think that “To Train Up a Child” advocates an accurate or healthy depiction of traditional parenting, however. Traditional parenting is built on a foundation of closeness and understanding a child’s behaviors and abilities. Sometimes food or water can solve a problem, sometimes a change of activities or location. Sometimes punishment is necessary. Many parents in today’s culture have little emotional connection with their children, so they have no ability to really interpret a situation from their child’s perspective. For these people, a punishment-centric approach is very dangerous and very well can lead to abuse.
notasheep,
people should check it up for themselves
I do not believe that any book that advocates ‘beating children into submission’ would even get published in a country such as America
Ok…
From the Web site of the author of that book (regarding the book’s suggestion to spank with quarter-inch PVC type tubing in order to maximize pain without bruising):
A swift whack with the plastic tubing would sting but not bruise. Give ten licks at a time, more if the child resists.
I think I’m done checking it up. Things like that evidently do get published in a country like America.
zahavasdad,
We have wandered far from the original point that brought me into this thread. You imply that since you are not personally impacted by the activities of the open orthodox movement and since they seem to be few in number, then people on this site are not affected by them and hence have no reason to discuss them. This is not true; posters in the CR including the OP have been affected.
I asked how you were impacted by an alleged bicycle ban in a Chassidish community so that you felt it worth opening a discussion; you didn’t answer, but I’ll assume that somehow you were affected other than through hearsay. If you can open a discussion about something affecting you, then why not any other poster?
BTW – One angle of approach to alleviate the tragedy of agunas is to strengthen marriages and reduce separations. I don’t have an opinion on the “smartphone” asifa, but given that unfettered access to the Internet opens a risk for falling into behaviors detrimental to marriages, it would seem likely that the organizers were partly motivated by a desire to reduce the tragedy of divorce, and by extension, agunas.
Also, I agree that more discussion and action are needed to resolve aguna issues, but the problem is a uniquely personal one, with wide differences case by case. Certainly there are universal changes that can be made, but the problem is quite complex, and there is considerable variance regarding what should be done. If you have good ideas, please by all means open threads about them and I’m sure spirited discussion will follow. Perhaps even moreso than bike bans.
Mammele,
I believe parents have the ability to set rules and enforce them WHEN THEY CONSIDER SOMETHING IMPORTANT.
Absolutely. How a parent interacts with a child, including enforcing rules, should be age appropriate. A parent of a very young child should put breakable or dangerous objects out of reach. Muktzeh toys should ideally be put away before Shabbos, out of sight, out of mind.
Feif Un,
I am sorry that you feel so pained by posts here, and although I have participated in some of the threads you have mentioned and probably not on the side that you’d prefer, I hope that none of my words specifically have caused you offense. I know nothing about RCA press releases, so I did not comment on that aspect – I got involved in the discussion further down.
I’d like to point something out that I have seen from your previous posts about the bias in the CR. You state that you are furious with the CR for allowing criticism and insults towards Modern Orthodox institutions because that is disrespectful, but you also attempt to hurl abuse towards Chassidish and Yeshivish institutions, and react with additional anger when those attempts are blocked by the moderators. It comes across to me, and hopefully this is not what you intend, that your problem isn’t with insulting rabbonim per say, but that this site allows your rabbonim to be insulted but not the rabbonim you want to insult. In other words, it’s less about the insulting itself and more about the inconsistent standard. If the site dropped all moderation and allowed any and all rabbonim to be insulted at whim, would you really be appeased?
I agree with you that many posts on this site go beyond the line in terms of insulting Orthodox rabbis. However, I think that your efforts to counter the problem would be more successful if you held that such activity is wrong across the board. In other words, rather than trying to legalize all bashing, work towards making all bashing illegal. Why do you get so upset to see your rabbonim and institutions insulted, when a CR littered with your blocked and edited posts indicates that you would do the same thing to others’ rabbonim and institutions if allowed the opportunity?
One final point – you are correct that sock puppeteering dramatically inflates the appearance of anti-MO sentiment on these boards. I think everyone focuses on “Joseph” so much that they don’t realize that there are other trolls and immature kids who exist and post here.
Since you claim YCT has spreasd everywhere, Please tell us how many “Bochrim” do they have.
This isn’t the nineteenth century, influence is not confined to Florsheims on the ground.
How many of their “Bochrim” or Rabbat’s have gotten actual pulpit positions.
The number is increasing rapidly.
Most MO shuls are afflied with either or both the OU and NCYI
MO shuls are not the only Jewish game in (out of) town.
The only people who are affectred by YCT are the people on the fridnges who are not going to BMG anyway.
I disagree.
About the Agunahs, Instead of condeming YCT, where is the Asifa for agunahs, Most of us know Agunahs. Come up with an answer instead of complaing. There are Asifas for all sorts of things. You can easily make one for Agunahs.
I absolutely agree with your charge to do something about it. What I don’t agree with is the strange idea you have that a person cannot simultaneously try to do something about a problem while finding another approach dangerous and wrong.
Suppose we have a kindergarten class where the children are clutching onto the toys and books and refusing to share with each other. A teacher decides to resolve this problem by permitting children to yank toys away from other children who are not sharing. If I disagree with the teacher, does that mean I don’t care about the lack of sharing in the class?
notasheep,
children that age [6 to 8 years] will NOT understand not to touch private property if they haven’t been taught the concept from a young age.
This makes no sense to me. If children cannot learn new concepts unless they were taught them at a “young” age, then how could they ever learn Torah, or to read, or math, or any complex subject?
As to your assertion that children below 12 months will not understand the meaning of the word no
I never intended to say an infant wouldn’t understand the meaning of the word no in the sense of parental disapproval – I’m saying that they might get confused as to why you are saying no or expressing disapproval.
I have also said no to an infant trying to explore an electrical socket, and he definitely noticed my no and gave me attention, but then went back to the socket. As he reached for it the next few times, I said no while moving him away from the light socket, and he gave me bewildered looks and kept returning to it.
At that point I have a choice: I could go the “To Train Up a Child” route, interpret his behavior as intransigence, engage in a power struggle with him until he fears my wrath and looks at me for approval before touching anything ever again (i.e., understands the meaning of no). Or I could simply block his access to the socket and we both move on with our lives with no trauma. By the time the child was 2, he could understand my instructions clearly, understand some of the reasoning behind it (he could get hurt) and also perceive that there would be consequences for disobeying.
And since I have acutally studied child development,
So you perceive no conflict between the “To Train Up a Child” model and your knowledge of child development?
I can tell you that from about six months of age babies are beginning to comprehend language and not just inflection,
And I can tell you that babies in the womb are beginning to comprehend language and not just inflection (newborns recognize their parent’s language as distinct from foreign languages, they recognize familiar voices, tones, and many other things such as music). I can also tell you that language comprehension has little relevance to what we’re talking about, which are worldly concepts such as object permanence, memory, cause and effect.
After the parent says ‘no’, they move the object out of reach.
So you are advocating doing something completely different from what’s described in “To Train Up a Child”. Based on your example from the book, you would leave the object within reach of the child and escalate your reaction until the baby breaks from fear. I’m glad that we’re not as far apart on these issues as it seems.
And why should the child become afraid of that object rather than learning it is untouchable?
And why wouldn’t the baby become afraid of the object, or the yelling and hitting parent? Different babies are going to interpret things differently.
notasheep,
but there was no punishment involved,
For most babies, the firm “no” will likely cause confusion, and they won’t necessarily connect it to touching a specific object. What does the parent do when the infant touches it after the “no”?
merely teaching the child that there are some things they can’t touch (which they can understand from a young age).
Please define young age – I was assuming we were discussing infants (e.g., < 12 months) here. I don’t believe that an infant can be effectively taught that there are some things they “can’t” touch (toy vs. not a toy); rather they learn to be afraid of certain things and people.
my two year old understands that she is not allowed to play with them
There is a universe of difference between an infant and a two year old. I agree that a two year old (who can climb and access far more objects than an infant, and say no!) should be instructed to not touch certain things. But, as you say, sometimes 2-year olds behave differently when hungry, tired, or sick. What should be done in those cases?
some of these kids are six, seven or eight years old
That sounds like a serious discipline issue, not a result of these children lacking the same objects in their house. A 6 to 8-year old child certainly is old enough to understand concepts like personal property, private and public, touch and don’t touch.
zahavasdad,
Because of my employment situtation I am forced to defend people who appear on the front page of the NY post.
What does that mean?
Those communities are alot larger than the small one in Riverdale.
A misdirection play. YCT is spearheading a movement that is actively attempting to alter the Orthodox Jewish world. They are active in numerous cities across North America. Population and influence do not necessarily correlate.
And frankly I do have close ties to the Charedi community, stronger than you know, so they do affect me more than Riverdale does where I have none.
So how does the alleged bicycle ban affect you personally?
Also, just because you are not personally affected by the activities of the open orthodox movement, you extrapolate that nobody else here is?
notasheep,
The example I read was explaining how to teach a very young child (an infant) not to touch something by placing the object near them and then telling them ‘no’ very firmly when they try to reach out for it. After a few tries they understand and no longer touch.
In my opinion, that would be a horrible way to teach an infant. G-d instilled in infants a deep curiosity about their surroundings. They have an intense desire to explore, touch, and taste everything they see. This is the only way a baby can learn so quickly about his or her surroundings. To purposely place something within reach of a baby and punish them for exploring it is not only cruel, it discourages the natural curiosity that engenders later intelligence and learning.
I know a response to this could be, what about Hashem placing the etz hadaas tov v’ra in gan eden where Adam Harishon could eat from it, but that case is completely dissimilar. The whole point of the etz hadaas was that Adam had the ability to listen to Hashem’s command and obey it. Hashem did not place that tree in the garden, wait for Adam to eat from it, and then punish him and say “NOW you know!” A baby has no ability to understand “do not touch this” before the fact. The only way you could communicate that to them is to let them do it and then punish them – and that is cruel and wrong. If there is something they should not touch, put it out of reach. When they reach an age of understanding, then you can tell them not to touch and warn them of the consequences.
DaasYochid,
Notasheep, the premise of the book seems to be that kids are little annoying brats who need to be beaten into submission. I didn’t read the book, but a lot of people who submitted reviews on Amazon seem to think so.
I believe the author of <i>To Train Up a Child</i> is Amish. Based on what I know of the book, the premise is not that kids are annoying brats, but that disciplining a child is similar to training animals – instilling habits based on fear and reward, rather than nurturing and encouraging the soul.
Sam2,
Apparently this is the sort of drivel the Post always writes, but Frum Jews are only upset now that the target of a moronic article was a Frum Jew.
Actually, it seems like most frum Jews already considered the Post to be sleazy and full of despicable articles. Your point would only make sense if frum Jews considered other articles fine up to this point – but that’s not the case.
Where was all the outrage when they called non-Jewish murder victims deserving? Are we really so insensitive to others’ pain?
That’s an unfair accusation. It’s natural to have a greater visceral reaction when your own family is under attack.
zahavasdad,
The issue of Mamzer was brought up by others not me
It was brought up by popa-bar-abba, presumably because the same “beis din” that enacts the conversions also handles divorces.
For the record, I do not live in Riverdale and have nothing to do with YCT or Avi Weiss, but I find it fascinating that some are so obessessed with him and ignore issues in their own house.
A classic double standard. Despite the fact that you are not chassidish and are not personally affected by issues in their communities, you had no problem opening a thread to hem and haw over bicycle banning hearsay; however, you wonder over this thread?
He has no affect on my life, and frankly he shouldnt have any affect on yours.
It’s wrong to assume that something happening in one area will not ultimately have an effect in other areas. Also, PBA started this thread and has stated numerous times that he is personally affected by the activities of this movement.
jbaldy22,
Whether the yeshivos were right in this case or not was not (I dont think) damoshe’s point.
I think it was his point, otherwise why would he bring up this story, declare it sad, and say that he doesn’t envy the cheshbon of the schools who threw “him” out?
DaMoshe,
Thanks for your response.
I do know, however, that the kid wasn’t just tossed out. The school found an appropriate place for him, and worked with the new school to get him settled in. That is how it should be handled.
I agree.
Are you sure that the yeshivos mentioned in your OP didn’t do anything similar?
I hope that this child you mentioned thrives in his new environment, but suppose as a thought experiment he became violent again at the new school and needed to get moved to a third school, and then a fourth, and a fifth, and a sixth, and then to a Yeshiva in a different town? And some years later, that child with a violent past, now a man managing a business, tells a frum man in a resort dining hall that he was kicked out of 7 yeshivos that couldn’t handle him, and he will never be Orthodox because of that. Should that frum man imply that your school’s hanhala will face hellfire for the way he handled the violent kid?
WIY,
Is it my problem that your joke has no punchline?
Is that like the no soap radio joke?
DaMoshe,
I think it is great that you and your wife were friendly with this gentleman and his friend, and that you invited them for Shabbos. The fact that he approached you after seeing you unwrapping kosher food indicates that he still feels a connection to Judaism, even if there is a lot of hurt.
I disagree, however, with the blanket judgement you passed on the Yeshivos after hearing his story. I do not see how you could have gleaned sufficient information from restaurant chatter to be able to pass such judgement with “after 120 years” type language.
He then named 5 or 6 well-known yeshivos in Brooklyn. He continued, “I went to all of those, and got thrown out of all of them, because they decided they couldn’t handle me, and the difficult background I came from.”
To get thrown out of 5 or 6 schools, plus an “away” yeshiva, is quite a feat. Couldn’t handle me? At what point do we move beyond your stereotype of kid victim and heartless hanhalas, and consider the possibility that sometimes a young person’s behavior can be dangerous to himself or others, and that expulsion may be a necessary, albeit highly unfortunate, course of action? When do we stop blaming our circumstances on others, and start taking personal responsibility for our actions?
But this is the result of throwing kids out of yeshiva!
Or maybe, just maybe, it was the result of his bad choices and his bad behavior.
I heard from my Rosh Yeshiva, R’ Bender, how his Rebbe, R’ Shmuel Berenbaum, reacted when someone suggested a kid should be thrown out – he yelled at the guy! He said you don’t know the harm that can be caused by doing that!
That is a nice story, and I’m sure that R’ Berenbaum’s reaction was totally appropriate given the specific situation. I’m not sure that it is appropriate to project one situation into another, however. Sometimes a rock should be struck, and sometimes it should be spoken to.
I was saddened by this guy’s story. I don’t envy the responsibility that the schools who threw him out have on their shoulders. When the hanhalah are judged after 120 years, this will be part of what is brought up.
Would you be sad if a yeshiva expelled a student who repeatedly beat up your child? What about a child who brought a gun to school? Or pressured your child to use drugs? Should he be allowed to stay and sit next to your child every day, because cv’s he might go OTD if he’s expelled?
rationalfrummie,
I am admittedly a beginner at learning gemara. From the way I have understood of bedikas chometz and bittul chometz, I personally do not see a contradiction in the Rashis you provided.
1. Nullification is sufficent to fulfill the d’oraisa requirement regarding chometz (Tosafos above)
2. If nullification is done alone, however, there is a risk that the person will later come across some chometz that he finds very difficult to consider nullified, so a bedika should be done as well as nullification derabbanan. (1st Rashi)
3. No contradiction in the 2nd Rashi if he sees the bedika as d’rabbanan.
4. On the other hand, bedika should not be done alone, because it would be very difficult to be sure you got everything (2nd Rashi).
Does this make sense, or am I not understanding something correctly?
Have a good Shabbos!
keepitcoming,
This is the way I understand it:
When we bring a korban to Hashem, we should bring an unblemished, beautiful animal – the best that we have. Now that we have no Beis Hamikdash, we follow the words of the prophet Hoshea, “let our lips substitute for bulls.” So our prayers, our words of praise, requests, and thanksgiving, are like korbonos to Hashem. In that light, the words of tehillim, pure and beautiful, represent some of the choicest offerings that we can bring.
newhusband,
I’m going to get a housecleaner for the sake of shalom bayis,
It might do better for your shalom bayis if you see this decision as an opportunity to bring pleasure to your wife (selfless), rather than to avoid arguments that you resent (selfish).
but I have a feeling it will solve the symptoms (dirty home), but not the underlying problem (caring for the home). How do I deal with that issue is what I am looking to figure out.
Why on earth do you think that you can ascertain holistic “underlying problems” with your wife’s attitudes towards the home after less than a year of marriage, where for all but one month of that time she has been pregnant? Honestly, I think it’s possible that the root of your problem is that you are blowing these “minor” disagreements way out of proportion and using them to make sweeping conclusions about your home and marriage. No wonder your wife cries when you have a disagreement – she tells you that she doesn’t like cleaning and wants household help and you imply that your marriage will be irrevocably harmed because she’s an unfit wife and mother in your eyes! Even if you didn’t say it, she can feel it with your “hints”. Stop judging what kind of mother your wife will be before your baby is even born, and what kind of wife she’ll be 1, 5, or 10 years down the road!
My advice to you:
1. Take almost nothing your wife says or does personally during pregnancy. I think you are seriously underestimating how pregnancy affects your wife. She is changing inside and out, and that can make anyone feel very insecure. She doesn’t want to clean up now, but for all you know, once the nesting instinct kicks into high gear, she may feel like you don’t care enough about the house!
2. Deal with the present issues during any discussion or disagreement, not future speculations. Whatever you decide for how to keep things clean now, make that decision considering only the current needs, and stop extrapolating what it means to your marriage years down the road – especially for issues regarding parenthood. Don’t judge things that you haven’t even seen yet.
3. From what you have written in this thread, you obviously see cleaning the house as a burden to yourself, using words like “significant” and “chores”. So why does it bother you that your wife sees it in the same light?
4. Instead of dropping “hints” (disapproval and disconnection), start cleaning and engage your wife with conversation while you do it (connection). Any chore is more fun when you have company, and you will likely end up sharing yourselves and the jobs more.
5. Notice and express appreciation for what she does.
I don’t want to fix the symptoms by throwing money at the problem today because its going to morph into a bigger problem tomorrow.
You are not a navi – stick to the present.
I feel very open-minded on trying different things to change the dynamic in the home but at the same time giving in anytime my wife wants something will only make me upset.
Stop viewing things as “me vs. her”. A happy wife is a huge win for you. Instead of keeping score and focusing on whether you or she have had your way, focus on solving the problem at hand.
I don’t want to resent her,
Then don’t. You are in complete control of your feelings.
charliehall,
Given that the fedora wasn’t invented until the late 19th century, it is really difficult to argue that it is halachically required.
Please don’t beat up the straw man, he did nothing to you:-)
I don’t think that anybody here, even the nuts (and those pretending to be nuts to discredit the positions they disagree with), are arguing that a fedora is halachically required. A lot of black hats worn by chareidim aren’t even fedoras (no pinches or crease on the crown, for example).
The arguments here seem to be:
1. Is there a halachic requirement to wear a hat when davening?
2. Are black hats somehow more special than others?
I sympathize with those making the argument that the clothes should not bespeak the man, because in reality, they do not. It is also reality, however, that human beings are not telepathic and cannot see into the depths of another’s soul in the span of a few minutes. Therefore, every human culture utilizes clothing to make statements about status, temperament, and association, to allow the wearer to transmit information about themselves to others. In other words, the clothes do not bespeak the man, but they do bespeak what the man wants others to see. If you do not believe me, go to a job interview in jeans and a t-shirt and tell the hiring manager that your choice of clothes doesn’t reflect on how well you can work.
Like it or not, there is a culture within Orthodox Judaism that identifies as Yeshivish, and wears white shirts and black jackets and hats as a part of this cultural identification. Orthodox Jews who wear kippa srugas are also making a cultural statement (e.g., modern Orthodox, Zionist, etc). There is value in identification with a culture, so it’s certainly not silly for a person to wear clothing that identifies himself with the culture he chooses. This does not mean that a person wearing the headgear of one culture is more religious than anyone else; the clothes cannot tell us that. It does tell us with whom the person identifies, however.
So to the people who are saying that clothing doesn’t matter: you have human behavior since the dawn of civilization at odds with you.
Veltz Meshugener,
I think I’m getting what you did – very clever! It does underscore that when you provide the level of detail that you did about a person, others can figure out who it was 🙂
Bar Shattya,
The main thing to keep in mind is to stay away from the people who think dieting should be done in a healthy way. Seriously. A tiny bit of logic aught to help you. People who eat healthy don’t lose weight. If they did people would just disappear into nothingness by eating healthy. But they don’t. Healthy people stay the same weight. If you want to lose weight you have to do something unhealthy.
Your statement is cute, but incorrect. If it were true, than we’d see people who ate in an unhealthy way gain wait until they exploded. A person’s weight maintenance is determined in part by how much he consumes (calories in) and how much he exercises (calories out). If either of those factors change, the person’s weight will change in response and then reach a new equilibrium.
Veltz Meshugener,
This is an example of what I mean. Suppose the OP were phrased this way (everything here came from the OP except what I have italicized):
So a fellow came by my place and sat down on a chair by himself, and it broke. The chair was not weak or broken prior to this. Should I ask him to pay for it?
I am very happy to have him as a neighbor and I don’t want him to avoid coming to my house. OTOH, I will run out of chairs if this keeps up.
WWYD?
Note that details important to the question (e.g., the state of the chair before he sat) were added, and details unimportant to the question, but could identify this neighbor, were left out.
Veltz Meshugener,
The problem with learning shmiras halashon is that it turns out everything is forbidden.
From my vantage point, the L”H problem here is not that the OP mentioned that a neighbor broke one of his chairs and asked whether he should ask the neighbor to pay for the damages since he wants to remain on good terms. That type of situation happens all of the time and the question phrased that way carries no risk of embarrassing or identifying anyone.
The problem with this OP, however, is all of the personal details supplied, such as the approximate time the person moved in, the number of children he has, his social habits, and additionally some unusual and unique features of the incident that have no bearing on the question but would render it recognizable to anyone reading this thread who was there or knows this person. None of these details were needed to ask the question, so given the fact that they carry the risk of embarrassing this neighbor, they should not have been supplied. Five details that, standing alone, couldn’t identify someone specifically may very well identify that person when taken together.
If I had a vote, it would be to edit the OP to remove the details, but keep the question.
WIY,
A few thoughts I have that I work on in my own life, and hopefully may be helpful to you:
1.) Don’t diet – the popular conception of dieting in the U.S. is taking a hatchet to our intake and suffering until some goal is reached. Like in “Garfield” comics where the cat eats everything in sight, and then for one week, Jon feeds him nothing but a carrot for supper. That’s a recipe for failure, since the underlying habits are not being changed, and the diet is unsustainable for the long term. As soon as the diet is over, the bad stuff comes right back. Realistic lifestyle changes, not dieting, is needed.
2.) Fill your space with good choices – all of us tend to take the path of least resistance and eat what is easily available to us. So remove junk food from your pantry and replace it with healthy, ready-to-eat foods such as carrot sticks, apples, grapes, celery, yogurt, whole grain crackers, bananas, etc. You can’t cheat with something that’s not there, and healthy snacks can satisfy hunger without guilt.
3.) Don’t get over-hungry – When we get really hungry, we tend to make poorer food choices. Plan ahead, have a healthy snack, and keep yourself from getting to the point of “I need a bite NOW!” before you even start making supper.
4.) If you drink soda – stop. Sodas add toxic amounts of sugar to our diets. It’s like a blitz on the pancreas. Water has no calories and is what our bodies are really after anyway when thirsty. If you did nothing but remove soda from your diet, then you have accomplished a big step. Diet sodas may not have sugar, but the artificial junk isn’t good for you either.
5.) This is my biggest challenge personally – control portion sizes and eat slowly. I am a fast eater by nature, and can finish off a third helping by the time my wife is done with her first. Fast eating results in overeating – the stomach can’t even register fullness before too much has gone down the hatch. Focus on chewing thoroughly and enjoying the food. It may help to decide in advance what and how much you plan to eat, and to arrange it on your plate so that you know when you are finished. Then get up from the table. Many times I continue eating without even thinking about what I’m doing!
6.) When you do eat something “bad”, don’t feel guilty. Nobody becomes obese from one piece of cake. If we tell ourselves that we can never eat this or that, then internal resentment and a sense that this is all too hard starts to build up. Instead of eliminating the desserts we love completely, set a realistic limit. That way, instead of thinking “Poor me, I can’t eat this”, we think “ok, I can eat this now instead of the brownie later…is it worth it?” Decide, enjoy (or enjoy something else later), and move on.
7.) Exercise is key to health. This is a big challenge for me because I have a sedentary office job. Take walks, sit on the floor, stretch your muscles, start small and slowly build up. The times I was most successful exercising have been when I was able to make it a part of the daily routine. I would walk to the next nearest subway stop – adding just 15 minutes to my commute, but 15 minutes of exercise. Park farther away, take a walk when coming or going, it doesn’t have to be an interruption.
Have a great Shabbos!
gavra_at_work,
I don’t buy the “He was not normal” argument.
I have not read much about the incident, but the details I have read seem to point towards mental instability. That steeping in the seething nastiness of the Israeli political climate may have provided a focus or justification for his actions in his mind is a good question. Where a “normal” but misguided person may vilify, an unstable person may act violently. He probably did view himself as upholding some sort of religious honor, but I don’t think his thought processes were rational as you suggest with your question.