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Sam2,
Meh. PBA is baiting people and people are taking the bait.
Ha. Both 147 and DaMoshe are smart people who have been around the CR for a long time. They both know very well what type of responses are likely to certain posts. With his response, popa_bar_abba was giving them what they expected, and possibly wanted, for whatever reason.
I agree with HaLeiVi. Rashi’s comment in parshas Yisro, ko somar l’veis Yaakov (i.e., speak gently to the women) v’sageid livnei Yisroel (i.e., harsh – punishments and details to the men) would seem to make sense if the women and men were standing separately at the mountain, out of earshot.
AZOI.IS,
Glad to know that the issue turned out to not be an issue at all!
Given that your OP provided enough specific detail for the couple to potentially identify themselves, but not enough detail for us random posters to really assess the situation, is it possible that you may have been using the CR to attempt to contact this couple to find out whether they were upset by something? If so, I would be careful doing that, because it could potentially cause hurt feelings. If this wasn’t your intention, perhaps it would be a good idea to minimize or even change the specific details (e.g., location of the party, timing of the engagement, religious history of the couple, length of the shidduch, etc.) to avoid the possibility of unintentionally getting “outed.”
We have to be careful when labeling vegetarians as acting against the Torah.
If someone believes that eating meat is fundamentally wrong because we have no moral authority to kill animals for our own needs when we can get adequate nutrition from other sources – I think that’s against the Torah.
If someone feels repulsed by the thought of eating meat because they picture the animals in their mind, but don’t see it as fundamentally wrong, I don’t think that’s against the Torah.
If someone feels that the practices of industrial meat production cause undue suffering to animals, unsanitary conditions, or even potential kashrus issues, I don’t think that’s against the Torah.
If someone wants to become a vegetarian for health reasons (e.g., following the Fuhrman diet), but doesn’t see eating meat as morally wrong, I don’t think that’s against the Torah.
Sam2,
There are also many husbands who feel uncomfortable asking these Shailas because it’s already secondhand and, as much as they try to avoid it, the husband has a certain bias involved. And the least bias there is in presenting any Shaila the better.
This doesn’t make sense to me. First, how can a case where physical evidence is brought be less clear than, e.g., kitchen shailos, where the rav is simply told what happened without seeing it for himself? Second, If someone has an accident in the kitchen that requires a shaila, s/he would have a bias towards kosher rather than treif, due to the waste of food and time kashering utensils. In fact, I would argue that there is bias in the majority of shailos asked, which is part of the reason we take things to a rav in the first place. Even if we know of opinions that can be relied on, by bringing the shaila to a rav, we give ourselves the opportunity to follow Hashem’s will rather than our own.
WolfishMusings,
Where on earth did you get the idea that my goal is to stop any (let alone all) minhagim?
I apologize for misinterpreting your intentions. I didn’t think that you wanted necessarily to stop this (or any) minhag, but it did seem to me that you were subtly calling its legitimacy into question.
My point was that if the sole reason to light a bonfire on L”B is becuase of the light that was revealed, then surely Shavuous is a better candidate.
I guess what I don’t understand about your point is: why can’t the bonfires be about the revealed light of Torah despite the fact that we don’t light bonfires on Shavuos? What is the issue with celebrating something in a different manner on a different day?
WolfishMusings,
Your analogy is not valid.
We were commanded by God to eat matzah and marror on Pesach, while we were not commanded to do so on Shabbos.
Fine; I should have picked an analogy dealing with minhagim.
OTOH, building bonfires is not a command from God, but something that we, ourselves originated.
So should those who make bonfires do away with the practice? Should Ashkenazim stop eating latkes on Chanukah? Sefardim stop eating donuts? Should Chabad do away with Yud Tes Kislev? Fabrengens? Should we also do away with dates and pomegranates on Rosh Hashanah, wearing kittels on Seder night and Yom Kippur, making a siyum, drashos before mussaf on Shabbos, etc. because we cannot find them in Chummash?
As such, if we can do so for Lag B’Omer, I don’t see a reason why we can’t do so for Shavuous as well.
If you find a halachically acceptable way of safely making a bonfire on Shavuos, then feel free to do that, and eat cheesecake on Lag Baomer while you’re at it:)
HaLeiVi,
I think he is just trying pinpoint what the idea really is.
Ok, but it doesn’t make sense to me why bonfires on Lag Baomer cannot be about celebrating the light of Torah just because we don’t light bonfires on Shavuos.
Sam2,
For example, firefighters and EMT workers in Israel had to be organized and ready to go at a moment’s notice, which meant preparing a few hours before Shabbos ended. That couldn’t have been done on Friday.
That makes sense, thank you.
WolfishMusings,
By that token, the Torah illuminated the world. Let’s make a bonfire on Shavuous.
Why would bonfires on Lag Baomer have anything to do with Shavuos? Is there fundamentally something wrong with celebrating something differently on different days? On Friday night, we say “zecher litziyas Mitzrayim” as part of kiddush, so by that token, should we eat matzah and maror every Shabbos?
I personally do not have a minhag to light bonfires on Lag Baomer, but I find the derision of those who make bonfires rather disturbing. I think the question of whether to postpone the bonfires until Sunday afternoon to make things easier on the police and for people trying to attend is valid, but to lambaste the bonfires entirely as bittul zman and “meaningless” is an insult to large segments of Jewry.
I also don’t fully understand the accusation that motzei Shabbos bonfires cause chillul Shabbos. Are the bonfire organizers really telling Jewish police officers, “please be there by 3pm on Saturday afternoon so we can get started promptly at 9?” If the police were interested in keeping Shabbos, why can’t they make most of the preparations like barricades before Shabbos, go home and observe Shabbos, make havdalah, jump into their uniforms and ride on over to man the ship? If cv”s preparations were done on Shabbos, then it’s the police who chose to be mechallel Shabbos.
Going one step further, what’s to stop the police from starting their preparations on Shabbos even if the bonfires were held Sunday aftrernoon? Should all motzei Shabbos activities that might necessitate crowd control be postponed until Tuesday?
pixelate,
What you described very well may be explainable by a terrestrial craft rather than an extraterrestrial spacecraft. Usage of unmanned drones has increased in recent years, and at nighttime, many of these drones would appear as formations of discs of light. The drone itself or equipment on the drone may also explain the strange noises you heard.
mw13,
why do we focus on praising the few actions of the irreligious that we support, and on deploring the few actions of the NK that condemn
The intent behind an action plays a big role in how others respond to it. If someone with their back turned towards me was gesticulating wildly in conversation and accidentally struck my face with his hand, I would be upset by his carelessness, but would probably not have my feelings hurt much. If the same person looked hatefully at me and intentionally struck me on the face, however, even though the physical impact of the act was the same as the first case, I would feel much more hurt and anger.
Most people do not presume that the typical irreligious Jew is intentionally committing aveiras in order to harm the Jewish people. When NKs are seen spitting on other Jews, however, or flying the PLO flag, visiting Ahmadinejad or paying homage to Yasir Arafat, most people do think they are exhibiting active malice towards their brethren.
I’m pretty sure they do not believe that Jews should be killed or deserve to be killed.
If someone in Wyoming displays a swastika, I think it’s reasonable to believe that he agrees with the atrocities committed by the Nazis. Likewise, if someone embraces “erased in a single storm” and “go back to Germany” Ahmadinejad and attends Iran’s conference on Holocaust denial, what are we to make of that?
although even then, when’s the last time you heard somebody call the irreligious “self-hating Jews”, etc?
It’s actually very common to hear an irreligious Jew who, for example, changes his name to make it sound less Jewish, or openly supports the Arab positions, or otherwise acts embarrassed to be associated with Jews called a “self-hating” Jew. I heard that term used long before I became frum myself or heard of the NK.
I just pointed out that to focus on the minority of good deeds of one group and the minority of bad deeds of another is rather hypocritical.
Failure to understand another’s position does not make it hypocrisy.
mw13,
I think it is possible that you are seeing a contradiction where none exists due to a faulty premise that every person or every situation deserves the same response. As we learned at the seder, four different sons, four different responses.
he extols the sensitivity that he saw them express towards others. He goes on at length about how it is thanks to these brothers and sisters of ours that Hashem is oheiv es amo yisroel, loves the Jewish People.
Are you sure that the author’s intent was to heap praise on the irreligious, or rather to praise b’nei Yisroel that even the ones distant from Torah and mitzvos display upstanding middos?
he deals with the subject of the Neturei Kartanics who went to meet with Ahmadinejad.
Here the norm is to denounce and deplore their actions, and to demonize them as “self-hating Jews”, even “traitors to Hashem and His Torah”.
Ahmadinejad materially supports those who kill Jews. He mocks and insults Jews, including our martyrs, in front of the world. NK seemingly did not go there to seek mercy for their bretheren. They embraced him, and expressed support for his “cause” against the state of Israel. They are not simply anti-Zionist, you can be anti-Zionist without supporting the enemies of the Jewish people. NK on the other hand displays the flag of the PLO, an organization with the blood of Jews on its hands. How can we not have a strong reaction to that?
Hypothetically, should our ancestors in Egypt have reacted the same to a Jew who r”l assimilated into Egyptian culture verses a Jew who outwardly maintained the trappings of Judaism, but who declared that the Jews deserved their slavery and patted the Egyptian soldiers on their backs as they drowned Jewish babies in the hopes of currying favor with the Egyptian government?
We do not tell over stories of the good that they do; we do not seem to care.
Do you have any knowledge of good that they do?
You must live on a different planet from me. Seculars open a parking lot on Shabbos in Yerushalayim? Denounced, protested. Conservative movement permits driving on Shabbos? Denounced, protested.
Why do we tend to focus on the 10% of the weekly routine of an otherwise irreligious Jew that is in accordance with the Halacha, and focus on the 10% of the time a NKnic spends doing things that we disagree with?
I disagree with your assertion that we ignore the 90% with regard to an irreligious Jew. I have heard no “pintele yid” stories that do this – they usually end with the irreligious Jew becoming frum. Also, do you really want to go down the path of criticizing a focus on 10% bad when 90% is ok? If someone commits adultry only 10% of the time, should we really praise him for his commitment to put on tefillin every day?
CR10,
You are changing around what I said.
There seemed to be a clear implication in your posts that you believe there is a correlation between increased observance (e.g., chumros or full time learning) and feeling superior to others.
I said WE shouldn’t feel superior.
I can agree with that statement regarding feelings. It is clear from our tradition that arrogance is a trait that Hashem finds particularly repugnant.
Do you think it is possible, however, for a Jew to uphold something he values when interacting with another Jew who doesn’t uphold it, yet without feeling superior? For example, a child of a non-TV household coming home and asking his parents to buy a TV because his friend gets to watch all of these great shows. What does the parent say? Or getting a meal invitation from someone who does things in the kitchen that you do not think are permissible to eat.
Also, do you think it is possible to have a disagreement on an issue of religious observance without one side feeling like the other is looking down on them (whether or not the other side is)?
According to the Ramban everyone is equal.
I do not see this from what you have quoted. Only Hashem can determine the value of a person.
When Shaul Hamelech went to war with Amalek, he allowed some of the animals, spoils, and the enemy king (Agag) to survive, in violation of the mitzvah to completely eradicate Amalek. Shmuel Hanavi’s rebuke of Shaul Hamelech had an interesting component to it – he accused the king of sinning because he was small in his own eyes. In other words, it seems that Shaul Hamelech believed that since everybody is equal, than who was he to judge what his soldiers did? This was misplaced humility. He wasn’t equal, he was king, and he had a responsibility to judge his soldiers’ behavior, rebuke them, and lift them up. Ultimately his failure to do so damaged the authority of his kingship beyond repair.
(Disclosure: I have not learned this Gemara inside, so others feel free to add/correct) In Maseches Sota, Rava says that someone who is prideful deserves to be excommunicated, and that someone who has no pride also deserves to be banned. Rashi comments that the latter is true because, without any pride, nobody would take him seriously or listen to his rebuke.
CR10,
I think you may be confusing the idea of judging a person’s worth with judging behaviors and actions. Only G-d can do the former, but G-d commmands us to do the latter.
The problem is that if I don’t have a TV and you do, I may feel superior to you. And if you are a learner and I’m not, you may feel superior to me.
So should we all get TVs and stop learning so that nobody feels inferior? This is not kindergarten. Religious observance seems to be a touchy subject, so let’s remove it from the equation. Billy is a better piano player than Bob, and Bob can draw better than Billy. Is Billy a better person than Bob, or Bob a better person than Billy? We don’t know, but if Joe wants to become a better artist, he should learn piano from Billy and drawing from Bob, not vice versa.
The point is not to feel superior to any other Jew even if we keep more mitzvot
The point of humility is not to think that we’re equal to everyone else, because we’re not. The point is to realize that our talents and opportunities come from Hashem, not from ourselves.
DaMoshe,
I was very bothered by the thread (now closed) about Modern Orthodox “minhagim”.
I was bothered by it as well.
I clarified there that MO does not endorse such behaviors! Yet the attacks keep on coming.
I don’t think all of the responses in the thread were as clear cut as yours in declaring the practices wrong; however I agree with you that a discussion of issues like this should be more nuanced in order to be respectful or respectable, because in reality the issues are nuanced. Imagine what a new BT who is slowly taking on Jewish practices, has starting keeping Shabbos and kosher, and has made improvements to her manner of dress, but hasn’t yet taken on covering hair or skirts, would feel reading the closed thread.
I had an urge to post a comparable thread, but I resisted it
I actually think that the mitzvah tantz thread is comparable. Unfortunately, Internet discussions seem to breed “us versus them” mentalities, where it’s difficult to debate issues without vitriol.
When I post now, I stop and think for a moment, asking myself, “Am I hoping to accomplish something positive with this?” If I think it will have a negative effect, I don’t post it.
Very nice.
Whoops, in my above post, the units for acceleration should be m/s^2, not m/s 🙂
Dash is correct – you have to make sure all of your units line up, which is best done by showing all work.
Newton’s Second Law: F = ma
The gravitational acceleration is g = 9.8 m/s
Centripetal acceleration is a = v^2/r
So to keep that car on track, you want to balance the centripetal acceleration with gravitational acceleration, so: 9.8 = v^2/r
Your r is known: 50ft, which is 15.24m, so v^2 = 9.8 * 15.24, and v = sqrt(9.8 * 15.24) = 12.22 m/s.
Converting 12.22 m/s into mph and you get 27.3.
It doesn’t seem like the torah learning is a [burden] to you, just the weight of a sefer.
Exactly. I don’t see the equivalence between the learning and the shlepping. Does a guy with a regular sized Artscroll gemara volume get more schar for learning than a guy with the smaller “daf yomi” volume?
In this case, I would have ended up learning the exact same amount — I just would have gotten to the stopping point a few minutes later in my ride.
Assuming that the 10 minutes later train doesn’t magically reach your destination sooner than your normal train, you may well have had an opportunity to learn more than you would have otherwise. I think you did the right thing with your inner critic. 🙂
My cousin got engaged on his third date.
Mazal tov!
Anyone beat that?
Is it a race?
zahavasdad,
Are you arguing that it is not anti-Semitism for someone to imply that a chareidi is a dirty Jew, because you feel it’s a true statement? That seems to be insinuated when you doubled down on your initial post to this thread even after clear examples of the anti-Semitism were posted.
Also, your chiding that Bloomberg never complained about his nasty mail makes no sense in the context of this conversation. First of all, we’re discussing a public thread on a municipal Facebook site that everyone can read, not private letters or rants on a hate group message board. Second, the mayor of Lakewood has not complained in this discussion, unless you think Ctrl Alt Delete is the mayor. Third, why should Bloomberg have complained? He had a security detail, and the NYPD and FBI likely looked into any threats he received.
Avram in MD, who is so wise, figured out how to make romaine lettuce that doesn’t ever need to be checked. (You may call me the devil, if you so wish.)
Suppose you have a world with no bugs in it. None. And then you grow some romaine lettuce. You don’t need to check that lettuce before you use it for maror, or on a sandwich, or in a salad. Because there are no bugs. It’s that simple.
And of course this is totally applicable to the real world. 🙂
holy brother,
Assuming Reuven would want to be treated in a specific form, Shimon feels that this form is not good for Reuven, does the torah want Shimon to treat Reuven in the form Reuven wants, or the form Shimon feels is right?
I do not think that ????? ???? ???? means that Reuven should do something for Shimon that he feels is not good just because Shimon wants it. Saying no to someone does not contradict the idea of loving them. The no should be respectful, just as you would want to be treated when someone says no to you.
DaMoshe,
The fact is that the atzeres was about the draft bill. The chareidim don’t want to serve in the army – so is it a lie to say “so only other Jews die in war”?
It’s a fallacious, libelous and speculative conclusion. Suppose somebody offered me a piece of cheese and I said, “no, thanks.” Given no additional data, is it reasonable for that person to assume that I don’t like cheese, or don’t trust their kashrus, or kill kittens? Perhaps I love cheese, but I just finished off a steak sandwich 20 minutes ago!
Chareidim have provided numerous cogent reasons for not wanting to join the Israeli army. You can perhaps debate whether the reasons are reasonable, but to ignore their reasons and accuse them of considering their blood redder than others is simply slander.
jbaldy22,
This is a widely accepted minhag that to my understanding has been practiced for generations and that is not something to tread on lightly.
I agree with you. Perhaps we can all agree, however, that there is no minhag for public drunkenness or dangerous behavior on Purim? Those issues can certainly be addressed without throwing away the minhag of drinking on Purim.
gavra_at_work,
If Obama won’t back up Ukraine against a clear act of war, after the US signed a treaty to do so to do so in 1994
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances of December 1994 provided assurances that Ukraine’s territory would be respected by the signatories (US, UK, Russia) in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal. In the event that nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine, UN Security Council action is required. Given a territory violation, at most, the treaty could be used as justification for any US or UK actions taken to uphold Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty, but as far as I am aware it does not bind any nation to take such actions. It seems pretty clear that Russia has violated this treaty. I would argue that Russia may have violated the treaty even before putting troops in Crimea through the use of natural gas economic blackmail to stop Ukraine’s negotiations with the EU.
You are clearly bothered by U.S. inaction in Ukraine. What would you recommend that the U.S. do that it is not doing now? Threaten nuclear war? Invade Ukraine to repulse the Russian troops?
why in the world would anyone think that Obama would back Israel in case of a war?
This may be a fair question to ask, but I think it’s weakened when you tie it to the situation in Ukraine, because the U.S. hasn’t failed to honor the 1994 treaty.
Perhaps Israel should re-orient itself towards other countries that have similar interests in fighting the millitant spread of Islam, such as Russia and China.
Do you think Russia or China would support Israel over Iran if G-d forbid there was war?
kfb,
Can someone explain to me why frum yeshivas feel it’s necessary to open school during snowstorms while public schools and modern schools are closed? Besides for the fun of snow days and playing in the snow and having time off, but isn’t it dangerous to keep the yeshiva open?
Public school districts usually base their decision to open or close on whether their school buses can navigate the snow or ice covered streets, or whether conditions may deteriorate during the day where the buses cannot get the kids home. If their decision making were based on broader danger for students coming to school, then they would remain closed for much of the winter, because sidewalks used by kids walking to school may be icy for days or weeks after a snow event, and streets away from bus routes where students live may not be clear. If a particular yeshiva does not utilize buses, then why should it close?
Doesn’t it remind you of socialism?
Uhh, no. Actually, your complaint is more grounded in socialism, since you expect the schools to decide for the parents whether it is safe enough to go to school. It is ultimately the parents’ responsibility to assess conditions and determine whether it is safe to send their children to school. Most streets in a district may be plowed and salted, while yours is still treacherous. If you send your child out and s/he G-d forbid gets hurt, it’s not the fault of the open school, it’s your fault.
HaKatan,
I think that part of the confusion in this debate is that everyone coming into it has a different definition of Zionism. I think we all agree that the idea of putting our trust in the formation and defense of a secular European style nation state as the goal of the Jewish people is A”Z. I think beyond that there is a wide spectrum of what frum people here mean when they refer to Zionism today, and some or most of those concepts are not A”Z (even if you hold all of them to be wrong). Labels change and evolve, and are notoriously imprecise, so it’s possible that when you quote R’ Elchonon and declare Zionism to be A”Z, you may be drawing a much larger circle than he intended.
rabbiofberlin,
Avram in MD and others: … but allow to answer the so-called obtuseness that I am accused of and also Avram’s question.
I never intended to imply that you were obtuse.
The Rambam clearly indicates that a person-not yet know as the Melech Hamoshiach- will wage war to free the jews from their oppressors.
So, please pray tell me how anyone can wage war if the sholosh shevuos are applicable.
I think oppressors may be the key word here. From my understanding, I don’t think that even the most binding interpretation of the shalosh shavuos precludes a defensive war against enemies who try to kill us, e.g., the war against the forces of Haman in Persia. If Moshiach comes through war, I think it would be a war of survival against a king “who’s decrees are worse than Haman’s.”
jewishfeminist02,
“Goodness”? You mean quality?
Sure 🙂
Anyhow, can’t we all agree that music is a matter of personal taste/preference and to each his own?
Once below 115 dB and with kosher words, I’ll agree with you.
rabbiofberlin,
My question is simple: how can the Rambam actually “pasken” (remember, this is Moshne Torah that ratifies halochos)that the Moshiach will wage war against our opressors (he calls them “milchamos Hashem)if the “sholosh shevuos” that prohibit rising up against the gentiles is halacha? Clearly, the Rambam did not accept that the shevuos are halacha and that we are bound by them,as he explicitly paskens against them.
I do not know enough to get into the discussion about the practical applications of the shalosh shevuos. From what I understand, however, the vows are in effect only when the Jewish people are ruled by non-Jewish nations. In the days of Moshiach, the Jewish people will not be ruled by non-Jewish nations, but by Moshiach, so the vows would no longer apply.
Based on the logic in your question, you would also have to ask how it is possible for a nazirite to cut his hair and place it on his korban, when the halacha clearly is that a nazirite does not cut his hair?
crisisoftheweek,
I’m guessing the ba’alei simcha is more concerned with being perceived as “too modern” more than the actual musical quality occuring.
Again, this is an unfounded assumption. Just because you like rock music does not mean that everyone else in the world has to, and that there must be some conspiratorial reason behind it if they don’t.
see if you can keep up with the time signature changes or the massive amounts of chord changes used in a single song.
Ok – so perhaps you’ve proved that rock music can be complex, but complexity doesn’t necessarily correlate with goodness 🙂
crisisoftheweek,
Uhhh..you do realize that by Yeshivish you mean more “klezmerish” which was the rock music of the goyim back in de alter heim.
Uhhh..you do realize that just because the OP does not prefer rock music does not mean he deserves your ridicule of perceived hypocrisy in aversions to music styles in the frum community. Maybe he just doesn’t want his simcha overshadowed by horrendous sounds masquerading as music that utilizes only three chords in an entire song but doesn’t need to use more because the listeners are half deaf by the end anyway.
And if goyish music is an issur of some sort, it might as well sound like it came from this century rather than the soundtrack to a pogrom.
Are you in favor of dumping Beethoven and Dvorak too? Their music is so… 1800s.
hashtorani,
As far as referring to MO/DL as kofrim/ovdei a”z, I agree with you that is wrong to call them that but did not notice him referring to them that way, only to the beliefs espoused.
HaKatan wrote this extrapolation of Rav Elchonon earlier in this thread:
So, according to Rav Elchonon, if you are a proud Zionist (which, according to their theology, includes “MO”) then that makes you a proud oveid A”Z.
While Rav Elchonon may have declared secular Zionism to be a form of A”Z, I highly doubt he pointed fingers at specific groups of Jews and declared them to be idol worshippers. Furthermore, it is clear from HaKatan’s analogy with the worshipers of the baal in the days of Eliyahu HaNavi that he believes the majority of Jews today are infected with this A”Z.
If this were truly how we hold, then since U.S. vaads likely don’t use Zionism as a litmus test to screen out mashgichim, one could not trust any U.S. hechsher. Since the vast majority of rabbonim in the U.S. don’t ask eidim at weddings if they are Zionists before accepting their testimony, then we cannot trust the majority of kesubos.
Somehow I doubt that HaKatan really holds that way, so it might be a good idea to be more cautious with the rhetoric.
DaMoshe,
After 120…
I don’t think it’s a good idea to make this type of statement about any Jew, even if you feel he is misguided. Note that HaKatan wrote this when addressing an IDF soldier:
I wish you G-d’s help to do good for His children, and may you always return home safely and complete in mind and body.
You may disagree with him strongly regarding the State of Israel, but I do not think he means for any Jew to come to harm.
HaKatan,
In response to some IDF actions, some goyim have “retaliated” against innocent Jews because they believe the Zionists’ lies that Zionism=Judaism when, of course, the opposite is true. Yes, these goyim are wrong to do so, regardless. Obviously. But that doesn’t change the alleged “cause” of their actions, the IDF.
I think you are giving these anti-Semites too much credit. I would argue that the State of Israel is more of an excuse for their hatred rather than a reason. Their behavior would be the same regardless of what the IDF does. Anti-Semitism was worse in general before the State of Israel was founded than after. What was the excuse then? After the Holocaust, “traditional” anti-Semitic behavior has become culturally unacceptable, so mainstream haters are cloaking their actions under the guise of fighting apartheid. We can also see anti-Semitism creeping in under the banners of other “liberal” causes, such as bris mila and women’s rights.
As such, I think that religious debates regarding Judaism, Zionism, and the State of Israel should remain “internal” among Jews, and we shouldn’t worry so much about what the non-Jewish Israel haters think.
the-art-of-moi,
It’s definitely a challenge to keep Shabbos in an environment where nobody else is, or where others may even be hostile towards it.
I asked her how shabbos was and she said that it was torture and she didnt feel any of the beauty that shabbos is supposed to have.
Since it’s easier to keep the Shabbos restrictions in an environment not conducive to observance than it is to do the more active components (candle lighting, meals, davening, learning, resting), it may feel to your friend like Shabbos is a day of deprivation, rather than a day of spiritual opportunity. It’s not an accident that Chabad’s Shabbos outreach begins with handing out Shabbos candle sets and an invitation to Friday night dinners, not with lectures about avoiding the 39 melachos.
she also mentioned that her uncle that is boarding at her house often turns the tv on while she is in the room on shabbos and he refuses to stop doing it. Her parents are dysfunctional and cant help her in any way.
I’m not sure that she should rely on those around her to be supportive. If they’re not interested in Shabbos, she won’t get a positive response by forcing its restrictions on them. Rather than fighting with her uncle all day about the TV, perhaps you could suggest that she could reserve some special things to have just for Shabbos – a favorite food or dessert, time to learn something that she otherwise would have no time for, a good book, a walk, a nap, dropping in on a friend, etc. Something to help her look forward to Shabbos.
I also agree with the above posters who recommended a Shabbaton. It’s important for your friend to experience a warm Shabbos atmosphere.
zahavasdad,
A Hillel rabbi on a college campus cannot come off the same as a Charedi Rabbi and dictate to the students what to do, they will just leave.
I don’t think anyone here is advocating that a campus rabbi do that.
Its very important to give a good impression of Yiddishkeit. coming off as standoffish or elitist is not a kiddish Hashem.
If someone refuses a dinner invite because of allergies or celiac, does that make them appear standoffish? A Jew can decline food invitations, and as long as his/her demeanor towards the one inviting remains friendly, open, and warm, there is no issue of coming across as standoffish or elitist.
Should I eat at a non-Jewish co-worker’s house or go to his church to avoid appearing standoffish?
The topic of this thread touches on an issue with some Jewish campus organizations that I have had for some time. Some campus Jewish groups purport to welcome Jewish students of all backgrounds, but these groups seem to have more success in fostering a welcoming atmosphere for less observant students than for more observant students.
I have seen a campus Hillel facilitator work with students to add a Reform Friday night service in addition to the long standing Conservative one, but tell an Orthodox student interested in starting a weekday minyan, “any minyan held in this building has to be egalitarian.” Of course that was perhaps not entirely true, because I’m sure that if a non-Orthodox female student wanted to form a women’s “minyan”, it would have been fully supported.
One would think that a campus Jewish organization headed by an Orthodox rabbi would be more sensitive to the needs of frum students, but we see from this thread that apparently the buck still stops at the rabbi’s observance level. Rather than supporting and facilitating the OP’s desire to maintain her standards from home, the rabbi (perhaps unconsciously, though posters here have explicitly) pressured her to sacrifice her standards on the altar of kumbaya.
This rabbi is likely being paid to assist Jewish students with having a meaningful Jewish experience on campus. Upon hearing that this student feels uncomfortable eating out because of kashrus standards, instead of pressuring, perhaps he could offer to help this student with her observance. “Are you able to find all of the kosher items you need? Our campus group makes a monthly order to have kosher food from NY delivered; perhaps we can add cholov Yisroel milk to the order for you?” Isn’t that what the campus organizations are there for?
Bookworm120,
When did Holmes do that?
What time period defines a thread bump versus a standard response? If I respond to a thread that was last updated 5 days ago, is that bumping?
charliehall,
The halachah is that if someone is a kosher eid you accept their kashrut — or at least their testimony as to what they have done in their kitchen.
I don’t think the issue here is that the OP rejected the campus rabbi’s testimony of his kitchen kashrus. There was never an indication that the campus rabbi was deceitful about his standards. The issue is that the OP is uncomfortable with those standards.
Another halachah is that when you settle in a new community you accept its halachic norms.
This statement may be too general, and even so, the key word is halachic. Certainly if the OP felt that something counter to halacha was taking place, she shouldn’t adopt it. I would also argue that a college campus is not a community in the traditional sense where this halacha would apply.
By not doing these things you are following a different religion from Judaism.
Sorry to be so blunt but this is the kind of mishigas that divides the Jewish people.
I would imagine that in a popa_bar_abba YCT themed thread you would argue that placing people outside the bounds of Orthodox Judaism is divisive. It’s interesting that you are so quick to do it here. It’s also surprising to me that you would direct this kind of statement at a college student who is trying to uphold her religious standards.
oomis,
Nosh certainly HAS made it into the secular vernacular.
We might be thinking about different non-Jewish vernaculars. In places like Wytheville, VA, Johnson, TN, or Huntsville, AL, many people would know what chutzpah means, but few would know nosh (at least when used as a noun). Maybe Bookworm120’s non-Jewish friend was an OOTer 🙂
Bookworm120,
is “nosh” a Yiddish word?
Yes, nosh is a Yiddish word, and I don’t think it has made its way into the American vernacular like “chuzpa” and “oy vey” have.
DaasYochid,
Avram, I thinking telling the rabbi a whole megillah about a policy not to eat in others’ homes unless she knows them well would insult him. At this point, I think the less said, the better.
You’re probably right about that in this case – what’s done is done, he’s probably not losing sleep over it, and nothing more needs to be said Saying something may even stir up issues that otherwise would not have arisen. I suggested saying something about a neutral policy in the case that the OP felt like she had to say something, but perhaps the same idea can be pared down with fewer words.
What approach would you recommend a person in this situation take before the fact, e.g., if you get invited to a meal, or asked if you’d eat at someone’s house? Do you think explaining a policy like I described would be a good idea (maybe the explanation can be shortened), or do you think just making circumstantial “sorry, I’m busy that day” refusals is good enough? The problem I see with circumstantial refusals is that sometimes the prospective host will become persistent in order to appear friendly (How about next week? No? Tuesday the 14th? No? Anytime in March?).
zahavasdad,
DaasYochid answered a lot better than I could have. There must have been an assumption that something like iceberg lettuce would be used (not romaine or other greens), and cross contamination like what Syag Lchochma pointed out would be avoided. Dressing would also be an issue, as well as other common salad additives like crutons, hard boiled eggs, etc. Also, did your rav give you this psak just for the circumstance of your first day on the job business dinner, or did he say eating salads in non-kosher restaurants could be your modis operandi?
zahavasdad,
I also had some pretty frum relatives who had gone on a cruise. And had ordered Kosher Food (You can order Kosher food for cruises at no additional cost – Its airline food) On the same cruise there was a Kosherica cruise (They dont buy the entire cruise just some cabins) and they spoke to the Mashgiach on the cruise and he told them the same thing about the salad.
The problem is not with the mashgiach’s statement, but how you are applying it here. The cruise mashgiach was telling your relatives that that particular salad on that particular cruise was kosher and could be eaten. He was in the kitchen and knew how the salad was prepared (e.g., pre-washed iceberg lettuce that didn’t need checking, vegetables precut in a bag with a hechsher or cut with a dedicated knife). I seriously doubt that he was giving them a carte blanche to eat salads in every treif restaurant, everywhere, forevermore. Salads with unchecked romaine or other leafy greens, or with vegetables cut with a treif knife are problematic. You cannot take a specific psak given in a particular circumstance and apply it to other contexts.
writer.at.heart415,
It was obvious that he caught that I didn’t answer the question, and I feel terrible for my reaction. I know that I should have just lied and said yes and dealt with the consequences whenever they would arise in the future, but I wasn’t thinking on my feet and now I just feel really bad.
I think your sensitivity to the campus rabbi’s feelings is a wonderful thing. My guess is that he wasn’t particularly offended; after all, his job on the campus is to assist a diverse body of Jewish students, not to get emotional reassurance that every student trusts his kashrus and would eat in his home. You stated clearly that you don’t eat in other people’s homes without knowing their specific standards, and he should respect that, even if he thinks it is strange.
If you are still worried about having caused him offense, and assuming that you are planning to largely forgo eating food cooked at anyone’s homes near campus (but are ok with eating food you know to be kosher in their homes), you can perhaps say something like, “I’m sorry I didn’t answer you before, it was hard at that moment to fully describe how I handle kashrus away from home. I would love to eat at your home, but to avoid offending anyone who may have kashrus standards that I am not comfortable with, I have a policy with everyone who I am not closely familiar with, even those who’s standards I would probably trust, to only eat foods that are brought in from an outside kosher establishment with [insert local hashgacha you trust, if any] and are not reheated (or reheated double wrapped). I really appreciate your invitation, but totally understand if my policy is too much of a challenge on short notice. I can bring something too, if that would be helpful…” That way, you can avoid eating at his home (or perhaps eat something there that you feel comfortable eating) without telling him that you don’t trust his kashrus, and also without fibbing that you trust it, but then have to make excuses every time you get an invitation.
Avram, to be fair, this is apples and oranges. No one NEEDS to have pierced ears. But vaccines, on the other hand have saved lives. Car seats, save lives.
I agree with you, but would you go so far as to accuse your friend who is furious with her daughter for not wanting to pierce the granddaughter’s ears of not caring about causing pain to the baby?