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hashtorani,
As far as referring to MO/DL as kofrim/ovdei a”z, I agree with you that is wrong to call them that but did not notice him referring to them that way, only to the beliefs espoused.
HaKatan wrote this extrapolation of Rav Elchonon earlier in this thread:
So, according to Rav Elchonon, if you are a proud Zionist (which, according to their theology, includes “MO”) then that makes you a proud oveid A”Z.
While Rav Elchonon may have declared secular Zionism to be a form of A”Z, I highly doubt he pointed fingers at specific groups of Jews and declared them to be idol worshippers. Furthermore, it is clear from HaKatan’s analogy with the worshipers of the baal in the days of Eliyahu HaNavi that he believes the majority of Jews today are infected with this A”Z.
If this were truly how we hold, then since U.S. vaads likely don’t use Zionism as a litmus test to screen out mashgichim, one could not trust any U.S. hechsher. Since the vast majority of rabbonim in the U.S. don’t ask eidim at weddings if they are Zionists before accepting their testimony, then we cannot trust the majority of kesubos.
Somehow I doubt that HaKatan really holds that way, so it might be a good idea to be more cautious with the rhetoric.
DaMoshe,
After 120…
I don’t think it’s a good idea to make this type of statement about any Jew, even if you feel he is misguided. Note that HaKatan wrote this when addressing an IDF soldier:
I wish you G-d’s help to do good for His children, and may you always return home safely and complete in mind and body.
You may disagree with him strongly regarding the State of Israel, but I do not think he means for any Jew to come to harm.
HaKatan,
In response to some IDF actions, some goyim have “retaliated” against innocent Jews because they believe the Zionists’ lies that Zionism=Judaism when, of course, the opposite is true. Yes, these goyim are wrong to do so, regardless. Obviously. But that doesn’t change the alleged “cause” of their actions, the IDF.
I think you are giving these anti-Semites too much credit. I would argue that the State of Israel is more of an excuse for their hatred rather than a reason. Their behavior would be the same regardless of what the IDF does. Anti-Semitism was worse in general before the State of Israel was founded than after. What was the excuse then? After the Holocaust, “traditional” anti-Semitic behavior has become culturally unacceptable, so mainstream haters are cloaking their actions under the guise of fighting apartheid. We can also see anti-Semitism creeping in under the banners of other “liberal” causes, such as bris mila and women’s rights.
As such, I think that religious debates regarding Judaism, Zionism, and the State of Israel should remain “internal” among Jews, and we shouldn’t worry so much about what the non-Jewish Israel haters think.
the-art-of-moi,
It’s definitely a challenge to keep Shabbos in an environment where nobody else is, or where others may even be hostile towards it.
I asked her how shabbos was and she said that it was torture and she didnt feel any of the beauty that shabbos is supposed to have.
Since it’s easier to keep the Shabbos restrictions in an environment not conducive to observance than it is to do the more active components (candle lighting, meals, davening, learning, resting), it may feel to your friend like Shabbos is a day of deprivation, rather than a day of spiritual opportunity. It’s not an accident that Chabad’s Shabbos outreach begins with handing out Shabbos candle sets and an invitation to Friday night dinners, not with lectures about avoiding the 39 melachos.
she also mentioned that her uncle that is boarding at her house often turns the tv on while she is in the room on shabbos and he refuses to stop doing it. Her parents are dysfunctional and cant help her in any way.
I’m not sure that she should rely on those around her to be supportive. If they’re not interested in Shabbos, she won’t get a positive response by forcing its restrictions on them. Rather than fighting with her uncle all day about the TV, perhaps you could suggest that she could reserve some special things to have just for Shabbos – a favorite food or dessert, time to learn something that she otherwise would have no time for, a good book, a walk, a nap, dropping in on a friend, etc. Something to help her look forward to Shabbos.
I also agree with the above posters who recommended a Shabbaton. It’s important for your friend to experience a warm Shabbos atmosphere.
zahavasdad,
A Hillel rabbi on a college campus cannot come off the same as a Charedi Rabbi and dictate to the students what to do, they will just leave.
I don’t think anyone here is advocating that a campus rabbi do that.
Its very important to give a good impression of Yiddishkeit. coming off as standoffish or elitist is not a kiddish Hashem.
If someone refuses a dinner invite because of allergies or celiac, does that make them appear standoffish? A Jew can decline food invitations, and as long as his/her demeanor towards the one inviting remains friendly, open, and warm, there is no issue of coming across as standoffish or elitist.
Should I eat at a non-Jewish co-worker’s house or go to his church to avoid appearing standoffish?
The topic of this thread touches on an issue with some Jewish campus organizations that I have had for some time. Some campus Jewish groups purport to welcome Jewish students of all backgrounds, but these groups seem to have more success in fostering a welcoming atmosphere for less observant students than for more observant students.
I have seen a campus Hillel facilitator work with students to add a Reform Friday night service in addition to the long standing Conservative one, but tell an Orthodox student interested in starting a weekday minyan, “any minyan held in this building has to be egalitarian.” Of course that was perhaps not entirely true, because I’m sure that if a non-Orthodox female student wanted to form a women’s “minyan”, it would have been fully supported.
One would think that a campus Jewish organization headed by an Orthodox rabbi would be more sensitive to the needs of frum students, but we see from this thread that apparently the buck still stops at the rabbi’s observance level. Rather than supporting and facilitating the OP’s desire to maintain her standards from home, the rabbi (perhaps unconsciously, though posters here have explicitly) pressured her to sacrifice her standards on the altar of kumbaya.
This rabbi is likely being paid to assist Jewish students with having a meaningful Jewish experience on campus. Upon hearing that this student feels uncomfortable eating out because of kashrus standards, instead of pressuring, perhaps he could offer to help this student with her observance. “Are you able to find all of the kosher items you need? Our campus group makes a monthly order to have kosher food from NY delivered; perhaps we can add cholov Yisroel milk to the order for you?” Isn’t that what the campus organizations are there for?
Bookworm120,
When did Holmes do that?
What time period defines a thread bump versus a standard response? If I respond to a thread that was last updated 5 days ago, is that bumping?
charliehall,
The halachah is that if someone is a kosher eid you accept their kashrut — or at least their testimony as to what they have done in their kitchen.
I don’t think the issue here is that the OP rejected the campus rabbi’s testimony of his kitchen kashrus. There was never an indication that the campus rabbi was deceitful about his standards. The issue is that the OP is uncomfortable with those standards.
Another halachah is that when you settle in a new community you accept its halachic norms.
This statement may be too general, and even so, the key word is halachic. Certainly if the OP felt that something counter to halacha was taking place, she shouldn’t adopt it. I would also argue that a college campus is not a community in the traditional sense where this halacha would apply.
By not doing these things you are following a different religion from Judaism.
Sorry to be so blunt but this is the kind of mishigas that divides the Jewish people.
I would imagine that in a popa_bar_abba YCT themed thread you would argue that placing people outside the bounds of Orthodox Judaism is divisive. It’s interesting that you are so quick to do it here. It’s also surprising to me that you would direct this kind of statement at a college student who is trying to uphold her religious standards.
oomis,
Nosh certainly HAS made it into the secular vernacular.
We might be thinking about different non-Jewish vernaculars. In places like Wytheville, VA, Johnson, TN, or Huntsville, AL, many people would know what chutzpah means, but few would know nosh (at least when used as a noun). Maybe Bookworm120’s non-Jewish friend was an OOTer 🙂
Bookworm120,
is “nosh” a Yiddish word?
Yes, nosh is a Yiddish word, and I don’t think it has made its way into the American vernacular like “chuzpa” and “oy vey” have.
DaasYochid,
Avram, I thinking telling the rabbi a whole megillah about a policy not to eat in others’ homes unless she knows them well would insult him. At this point, I think the less said, the better.
You’re probably right about that in this case – what’s done is done, he’s probably not losing sleep over it, and nothing more needs to be said Saying something may even stir up issues that otherwise would not have arisen. I suggested saying something about a neutral policy in the case that the OP felt like she had to say something, but perhaps the same idea can be pared down with fewer words.
What approach would you recommend a person in this situation take before the fact, e.g., if you get invited to a meal, or asked if you’d eat at someone’s house? Do you think explaining a policy like I described would be a good idea (maybe the explanation can be shortened), or do you think just making circumstantial “sorry, I’m busy that day” refusals is good enough? The problem I see with circumstantial refusals is that sometimes the prospective host will become persistent in order to appear friendly (How about next week? No? Tuesday the 14th? No? Anytime in March?).
zahavasdad,
DaasYochid answered a lot better than I could have. There must have been an assumption that something like iceberg lettuce would be used (not romaine or other greens), and cross contamination like what Syag Lchochma pointed out would be avoided. Dressing would also be an issue, as well as other common salad additives like crutons, hard boiled eggs, etc. Also, did your rav give you this psak just for the circumstance of your first day on the job business dinner, or did he say eating salads in non-kosher restaurants could be your modis operandi?
zahavasdad,
I also had some pretty frum relatives who had gone on a cruise. And had ordered Kosher Food (You can order Kosher food for cruises at no additional cost – Its airline food) On the same cruise there was a Kosherica cruise (They dont buy the entire cruise just some cabins) and they spoke to the Mashgiach on the cruise and he told them the same thing about the salad.
The problem is not with the mashgiach’s statement, but how you are applying it here. The cruise mashgiach was telling your relatives that that particular salad on that particular cruise was kosher and could be eaten. He was in the kitchen and knew how the salad was prepared (e.g., pre-washed iceberg lettuce that didn’t need checking, vegetables precut in a bag with a hechsher or cut with a dedicated knife). I seriously doubt that he was giving them a carte blanche to eat salads in every treif restaurant, everywhere, forevermore. Salads with unchecked romaine or other leafy greens, or with vegetables cut with a treif knife are problematic. You cannot take a specific psak given in a particular circumstance and apply it to other contexts.
writer.at.heart415,
It was obvious that he caught that I didn’t answer the question, and I feel terrible for my reaction. I know that I should have just lied and said yes and dealt with the consequences whenever they would arise in the future, but I wasn’t thinking on my feet and now I just feel really bad.
I think your sensitivity to the campus rabbi’s feelings is a wonderful thing. My guess is that he wasn’t particularly offended; after all, his job on the campus is to assist a diverse body of Jewish students, not to get emotional reassurance that every student trusts his kashrus and would eat in his home. You stated clearly that you don’t eat in other people’s homes without knowing their specific standards, and he should respect that, even if he thinks it is strange.
If you are still worried about having caused him offense, and assuming that you are planning to largely forgo eating food cooked at anyone’s homes near campus (but are ok with eating food you know to be kosher in their homes), you can perhaps say something like, “I’m sorry I didn’t answer you before, it was hard at that moment to fully describe how I handle kashrus away from home. I would love to eat at your home, but to avoid offending anyone who may have kashrus standards that I am not comfortable with, I have a policy with everyone who I am not closely familiar with, even those who’s standards I would probably trust, to only eat foods that are brought in from an outside kosher establishment with [insert local hashgacha you trust, if any] and are not reheated (or reheated double wrapped). I really appreciate your invitation, but totally understand if my policy is too much of a challenge on short notice. I can bring something too, if that would be helpful…” That way, you can avoid eating at his home (or perhaps eat something there that you feel comfortable eating) without telling him that you don’t trust his kashrus, and also without fibbing that you trust it, but then have to make excuses every time you get an invitation.
Avram, to be fair, this is apples and oranges. No one NEEDS to have pierced ears. But vaccines, on the other hand have saved lives. Car seats, save lives.
I agree with you, but would you go so far as to accuse your friend who is furious with her daughter for not wanting to pierce the granddaughter’s ears of not caring about causing pain to the baby?
SecularFrummy,
Why are so many people okay with causing pain to infants?
I don’t think that this is a fair allegation to make regarding the posters in this thread. Based on your statement’s implications, infants should not be vaccinated (painful) or restrained in car seats (upsetting) without consent.
I think it’s totally valid to argue that pierced ears are not worth the potential trauma to an infant, and I would agree with you. Others disagree, believing that the young girl will almost certainly want pierced ears when older, and the benefits of getting it done in infancy (some were stated above) outweigh the prospect for transient pain that will not be remembered when the girl is older. While I personally disagree with the latter argument, it doesn’t make its supporters callous towards infants.
Why is the Torah against the males and put them into an impossible situation.
Eh?
A women has the right not to work.
How does this harm men?
She has the right to stay home and be taken care of.
In the context of marriage, which, when healthy, is as beneficial (if not more so) to men as to women.
A women has the right too enter in to Contracts
So does a man, where’s the bias?
A women has the right to open a bank account
So does a man, and how do secular laws governing bank accounts reflect on the Torah?
A women has the right to spend money as she pleases.
I’m not sure that is accurate, and even if so, a man does too, so where is the bias?
I am having a very hard time making sense of all 4.
What doesn’t make sense?
As based on this a Women could go out one day enter into a bunch of contracts,
I’m not sure that is an accurate statement.
right checks that cant be cover,
That would be illegal under secular law.
and withdraw and spend all the money in a bank account, and then turn around and say. I am not responsible for covering any of these debts, as i dont have to work.
That is certainly not true.
BaalHabooze,
Only if you’re in the tropics. Jerusalem’s latitude is approximately 31.5 degrees north of the equator. On the summer solstice, the maximum (e.g., noontime) sun angle at that latitude is ~ 82 degrees, and on the winter solstice that angle is ~ 35 degrees. Assuming Sukkos falls out near the autumnal equinox, the sun angle at noon would be approximately 60 degrees, so even at noon the walls are casting a shadow.
Veltz Meshugener,
My question is similar to Logician’s:
Therefore one asks his posek, and doesn’t care what “most” people are doing. What’s the issue ?
If I have a halachic question or situation where there are differences of opinion, I ask my rav a shaila. He takes my whole situation into account and gives me a p’sak.
One thing that I learned after becoming frum (and this may be unique to my own situation and rav) is that it is better when asking a shaila to be very specific about the particular situation prompting the shaila with a goal to get a p’sak just for that situation, rather than phrasing the question in broad terms to seek a general ruling. That way, the answer I receive is tailored exactly to my situation, “bias” free. If I then feel that I need a more general answer to address future instances, I follow up by asking something like, “and if this happens again, what should I do?”
DaasYochid,
Thank you for your brachos, kind words and patient responses. You are also one of my favorite posters in the CR, both because of the extensive knowledge that you contribute, and also because of the sensitivity you show towards all posters in your efforts to allay misunderstandings.
I agree that part of the maelstrom that this thread has become may have originated from misunderstandings on both sides. I can reread the OP and subsequent posts as concern for a relative and halacha, and the responses (me included) largely zeroed in on perceptions of a negative attitude towards the poor or lower paying that may not have been there.
The other misunderstanding may have arisen from the OP’s categorizing the “candy dish” gift giving as the giver’s attempt to patur himself from the mitzvah of paying the shadchan. I wouldn’t necessarily assume that because a person is FFB he knows this halacha, and even if he did, knows what the set amount is. Obviously in the latter case the person should have asked a shaila, but the solution is more complex for the former case. The fact that shadchanim are hesitant to ask for money for their services in of itself is very telling about the state of knowledge in this area. E.g., since everybody knows a plumber needs to be paid for his services, the plumber is not shy about addressing payment.
Gamanit,
Teenage babysitters. Few will tell you over the phone how much they charge,
My wife always asks a potential babysitter what her rate is beforehand, and will offer a rate if the babysitter responds that she doesn’t have one. Similarly, my plumber will give me a range before starting work; “It looks like you’ll need this, which costs around $350, but if I get in there and find that such and such is broken, we’ll need to replace the whole thing and that will run up to $850…” My auto mechanic always calls with an estimate before beginning work on my car. I can look up each dental procedure my dentist recommends to figure out its cost beforehand as well.
Despite the fact that a shadchan deserves payment as much as a babysitter, plumber, mechanic, and dentist, for some reason, it seems culturally more acceptable for the latter professions to state rates beforehand. In other words, a plumber would never have to start a CR thread asking for a polite way to request money instead of a gift for services rendered. Maybe this is what should change. If there is a significant problem with shadchanim not being paid appropriately, then perhaps community rabbis can be asked to highlight the halacha when addressing their communities, or be sure to mention the common rate when speaking to a family making a wedding.
DaasYochid,
Avram, do you have evidence that AZ’s numbers are not correct? If not, you should not be jumping on the OP for inflating them.
You’re right. It was not my intention to accuse AZOI.IS (or his/her relative) of inflating the rate paid to the shadchan. I was primarily responding to the OP’s second and subsequent posts, which gave me the impression that there was a disconnect regarding what the OP thought the rate was and what most people were actually paying. I am not from the tri-state area and do not even know 10 people from the area, so I cannot take a poll as requested; but if the rabbonim in the community hold that the rates are in a range between $500 and $1500, then there is no argument. G-d willing when my children are set to marry, I will not forget to speak to my rav regarding my obligations to the shadchan and I plan to settle things according to halacha.
AZOI.IS,
I apologize for responding so strongly in this thread. I think what really bothered me was this statement:
Just wondering, do poor people feel they dont have to pay Shadchanus
Lo siyeh lo k’noshe – don’t act [towards a poor person] as a creditor.
Your relative definitely deserves compensation for his/her services, but on issues regarding how the Jewish people borrow and repay, it pays to tread carefully.
Health,
Sam – I fail to see where HaKatan said that the holocaust wasn’t the will of Hashem!
I think Sam2 may be getting it from where HaKatan wrote:
By your “logic”, Hashem also wanted the Holocaust and every other tragedy to happen.
That said, I agree with you and am almost positive that HaKatan did not mean that there are things that happen that did not originate from Hashem or were against His will. Rather, Hashem gives humans freedom of choice and responds accordingly based on our actions. Hashem desires that we follow the mitzvos so He can reward us with the greatest and most open relationship with Him, which is the greatest pleasure. If we, cv”s, do not follow the mitzvos, the response we get is certainly Hashem’s will, but ultimately it was not the response that He would have preferred to give to us.
I am very glad to hear that you are doing better.
AZOI.IS,
These are the data that I have gathered from this discussion:
1. Halacha requires that a shadchan be paid for the service s/he did for the couple and their families.
2. The amount of money to be paid is set by the normal rate in the given community.
3. You or your relative thinks the going rate is $2000.
4. You or your relative is ticked off because s/he commonly receives much less than that amount.
From my perspective, the problem isn’t necessarily that the community is not upholding the halacha, but that your relative has a skewed impression of what the going rate should be. After all, it’s set by the statistics of the people paying, not by what the shadchan thinks it should be. In other words, if 10 people pay $200 and 1 person pays $2000, the going rate goes with the 10, not the 1, irregardless if the 1 high payer is less wealthy than the 10, and also irregardless perhaps of what is paid for other wedding expenses such as flowers or food. A florist is probably paid more than a plumber, even though the latter’s work is more vital.
The only evidence for $2000 that I’ve seen other than hearsay is what’s printed on Saw You At Sinai’s Web site. I do not think that a Web site dictates what a community’s going rate is, even if they are getting halachic guidance of their own. In other words, to find out what the going rate is, the couple should ask their rav, not the shadchan’s.
If your relative is truly upset by being paid less than $2000, then perhaps s/he should be up front with the clients before services are rendered what s/he feels the going rate is. Just because the halacha is that a person who performs unsolicited labor deserves payment doesn’t mean unsolicited labor is the way to go. Most people would be very uncomfortable with that.
Maybe we can pay Hamid Karzai to make that point himself!
davidsamual14,
I think strife and judgment between us is what causes us great grief and the darkness that remains all around us.
I agree with you that sinas chinam, strife, and judgmentalism contributes perhaps the most to the darkness of this galus.
I will qualify my agreement, however, with the point that sinas chinam should not be used as a club to squelch dissent or disagreements for the sake of heaven. In last week’s parsha (Mishpatim), the Torah enjoins us lo siyeh acharei rabim l’raos, do not follow the majority for evil.
I hadn’t been to Israel for over 20 years, but when I took my son there for his bar mitzvah, I was awed by the shalom between the Israelis.
That’s amazing, and I am glad to hear that, especially since news from Israel has been so distressing lately.
As you can see from what the Ramchal says, Shalom is a priority.
Again, I agree with you, but shalom alone is not sufficient. The generation that built the tower of Bavel lived in peace – but their mission was not good and ultimately they were scattered across the world.
I think criticisms of how Torah is treated by many in Israel, both within and outside of the government, is legitimate and does not fall under the category of sinas chinam. The state is definitely not acting in accordance with halacha, and I do not think that pointing it out and working to change it or mitigate the consequences is a bad thing.
My goal in this discussion is to understand where HaKatan is coming from, and I believe I have a better understanding of it, and from a conceptual standpoint I don’t think that his views and my views are that different. I think where we may differ is in the approach to it. When a man is sick, he needs a surgeon with the precision to identify and remove exactly what is making the man sick, and to take great caution to injure as little healthy tissue as possible – even if that tissue looks inflamed because of the sickness. What the sick man does not need is someone wielding a club screaming “YOU’RE SICK!! YOU’RE SICK!!” while beating him over the head.
the-art-of-moi,
This thread is really upsetting me
Whenever popa_bar_abba trolling appears sacrilegious on the surface, there is usually something going on under the surface, a subtle point he’s trying to make.
I don’t think popa_bar_abba is objecting to saying tehillim. It sounds to me that he feels like these events he’s going to are cheapening the tehillim by sandwiching them between national anthems and speeches, and treating them as a performance to be watched rather than a service of the heart. His posts are essentially mirroring the attitude towards the tehillim that these events engendered, which is a form of satire.
The fact that he doesn’t explain the satire and lets the denizens go nuts with outrage is what brings his satire to the pedestal of trolling.
PBA – sorry if I’m ruining your fun 🙂
HaKatan,
Thank you for your clarifications. I think I understand better what you are trying to do, and I appreciate your attempt to refrain from judging individual Jews.
I see no reason why any thinking Jew should contradict his faith by being, in addition (and in contradiction), a Zionist.
If possible, would you enumerate the facets of present day Zionism that you hold to be avoda zara? I definitely understand how the original conception of Zionism – the replacement of Torah Judaism with secular nationalism – was A”Z, but it seems to me that that ideology is mostly extinct. Most Israelis today, secular and frum, live in Israel because they were born in Israel, not out of a mission to turn Jerusalem into Berlin or Paris. The shmad of today is coming primarily from secularists, today’s maskilim, who would be opposing public religion no matter where in the world they were. Perhaps you’ll find many more agree with you if there was clarity about what you mean when you say “Zionist”.
Some other specific questions:
Given that six million Jews currently live in the medina, would you consider praying for the welfare of the state and the success of its military against the Arabs during wartime to keep those Jews safe to be ok or not ok (NOT as a change to our nusach, but as a personal prayer)?
What about defending the state from BDS attacks and double standards in the media?
What about working for the government of Israel, e.g., as a government scientist?
Thanks again for your time and patience with my numerous questions.
popa_bar_abba,
Is it better to just let them break the ugly vase someone gave you that you never use?
Nope, I’d argue that it’s better to get them something cheap to play with or break. Otherwise, reasoning that you also never use it, they may break the other ugly vase someone gave you that is priceless.
gavra_at_work,
Sorry I didn’t comment on your plan beforehand.
Create a European union type Superstate over the entire county.
This would be done as part of a peace agreement with the Palestinians and include the West Bank and Gaza, or would this only be in effect within the pre-1967 borders?
Then split it into 5 federal states:
This would seemingly ease the stepping on toes among groups, but how would it solve anything in HaKatan’s world view (e.g., the three oaths, Zionism, etc.)
4: The seculars
Assuming this plan arose from my hypothetical situation where everyone came around to HaKatan’s view of Zionism – I’m not sure there would still be seculars. The views of the religious Zionists would also be quite changed.
Full population swap,
This would cause considerable hardship and resentment.
taxation, benefits, laws, security, etc. only from the federal state.
You mean from the Euro Union style state, or each individual state?
HaKatan,
The point is not what, al pi halacha, the Zionists should do now
Isn’t what, al pi halacha, we should do now is the fundamental mission of Jews? It should be the first question asked by a baal teshuva.
but that everyone should be crystal-clear that they should never have started
We should realize how bad our sins are and feel regret for them, yes, this is the critical first step of teshuva. But to take a fatalistic attitude that nothing can be done about it is to surrender to the yetzer hara. We can always return to Hashem.
So, as to what the Zionists should do after the above, this is for the gedolim of the generation to deal with.
That’s a fair response.
The purpose of the questions I’m asking you is to learn more about the reasons you are here bashing “Zionists.” In an earlier post, you connected your purpose with Eliyahu Hanavi’s battles against the avodah zara of his day. Eliyahu Hanavi’s purpose was not simply to bash avodah zara because it was bad. His purpose was to bring the Jewish people to do teshuva. He was motivated by love for his brethren, even those steeped in sin. If he did not love them, he would not have been worthy of his mission.
Yirmiyahu Hanavi was thrown into prision by the sinful government of Yehuda. Almost nobody listened to him. In fact, there were people pretending to be nevi’im, saying false things and attributing them to Hashem. He could have hated these people, bashed them, called them sinners, washed his hands of them, but when the exile came, he kissed the bloodstained ground where they walked, caught up to them, and attempted to place their chains on himself as well.
I see you doing a lot of Zionist bashing in these forums, taking pains to categorize Jews as sinners, but you spend very little time describing how to do teshuva. Whether intentional or not, this communicates a sense that your words come from a place of shame of association with and hatred of Zionist Jews, not concern for the spiritual well being of the whole Jewish nation. Do you want them to improve, or does your own sense of righteousness come from standing on their heads? Do you see yourself as part and parcel with the Zionist Jews, or do you see yourself as separate from them – that you are a “real” Jew and they are now imposters – divorced from the bris?
But people still believe in the heresy of Zionism and make it (part of) their faith.
Do you believe this can and will change?
HaKatan,
On the other hand, if your question is what should the Zionists do to stop their ill-conceived and shmad-fueled rule of Eretz Yisrael, as in what Teshuva can they do?
Yes, that is my question, albeit rephrased 🙂
The very least they could do is stop shmading our brethren and they could also renounce Zionism in favor of Judaism, for starters. True, there are other significant issues remaining. But that would be a good start.
Ok – now we’re getting somewhere, maybe. You’ve restated my hypothetical situation as your first step: the Zionists have renounced Zionism stopped “shmading” the Hareidim. Now… what happens next? It’s the “significant issues remaining” that I want to know about.
Perhaps you believe that were the Zionists to make such a teshuva, Moshiach would come right away so we wouldn’t have to deal with the remaining issues. That’s a fair belief, but as we do not know exactly when Moshiach will come, I think it is fair to ask, “what should we do next”?
Do we disband the governmental services and army of Medinat Yisrael and let the chips fall where they may? That would be disastrous from a utilities, services, and get slaughtered by the Arabs perspective.
Do we propose to Jordan, the Arab League, or the UN to take over control of Eretz Yisrael, provided they ensure the safety and security of the resident Jews? What if they refuse to agree to that provision? And even if they did, I’m not sure those bodies would be willing or able to enforce such an agreement and stop the ensuing Arab attacks and expulsions against Jews, Hareidim and repentant Zionists alike.
Do we attempt to alter the existing State institutions to fit halachic requirements as best we can until Moshiach comes to take the throne of Am Yisrael, setting up a council of sages to guide this effort? This scenario seems appealing to me in principle, but what about the three oaths?
oomis,
Maybe this thread has helped to make some people more aware that our actions ARE noticed, and judged as well, and perhaps we all need to think about how we are perceived, whether or not we think we are doing something wrong or neglectful.
I agree. Avoiding appearances of evil is just as important as dan l’kaf zechus.
WIY,
What would you do if someone started enthusiastically telling you a joke … very … slowly … with an unfunny punchline, and then placed a bag of pretzels on his baby’s head?
oomis,
I said this earlier, I am beginning to think it is a generational thing, this difference of opinion.
I disagree that this is a generational thing. There were neglectful parents and careful parents 30 years ago, and there are neglectful parents and careful parents today. I’m sure that 30 years ago there were differences in opinion among parents regarding what was safe or not safe, just like we see in this discussion. And I’d bet a pound of grain that there were grandparents looking askance at the parenting of their children’s generation. Ain kol chadash tachas hashemmesh.
I personally would never do what the OP described with one of my infants, because from my perception of what he’s describing, it sounds uncomfortable and unsafe for the infant. At the end of the day, however, I did not witness what this specific mother did, what led up to it, what followed it, what her thought processes were at the time – I know very few of the actual facts. If the OP had asked, “do you think it’s a good idea to place your infant directly into the toddler seat of a shopping cart on his back and then put food on top of him,” I would have given a resounding no. What the OP wants from us, however, is to judge a specific mother’s care for her children, a mother who he alone saw, and only for a moment in time. Every parent makes mistakes they later regret. Some parents are truly neglectful. We don’t know what this was. Would any parent want someone to step in right at the moment they make a mistake with their child, and then post this mistake to the Internet looking for a chorus of boos? I am NOT comfortable with that – especially since others are using it as a platform to bash young Jewish parents in general.
rationalfrummie,
LAB- if its really that black and white as you say, what happens to eilu v’eilu?
This is just my opinion. Torah was given to the Jewish people to be followed as an eternal system. A framework is established, but many of the details are left for the Jewish people to delve into, and more than one possibility can arise within the framework. In this way, Torah can be just as relevant to an agrarian, bronze age culture as it is to an urbanized, “internet-of-things” culture. Our mesora provides us with the tools to authentically mine the Torah for wisdom, and protects us from going down paths that may take us outside of the eternal framework.
oyyoyyoy,
is it better to not do something cause your a good prson, or cause hashem said so. killing for example
What defines a good person is societally and culturally dependent, as oomis eloquently described. What one society considers morally repugnant behavior another might see as great virtue.
Some behaviors, such as killing and stealing, seem to carry a greater universal morality than others, such as dietary laws. I believe this sense of heightened morality comes from the fact that societies cannot be built or maintained unless these behaviors are curtailed. Therefore, there are some basic moral concepts that all humans, who are social creatures, instinctively adopt. Also, we are wired to feel empathy, so most humans can develop a sense of, “what is hateful to me, do not do to others.”
Torah changes the entire ball game. Instead of morality from within, which can be influenced by environment, culture, and society, Torah gives us morality from Heaven. Some of that morality will line up with our instincts, but some will not. Building a society around this heavenly moral code is what the Jewish people are all about.
HaKatan,
Am I to suppose, since you did not respond, that you do not have an answer for what the Jewish people should do in order to make teshuva now that a state has existed for over 60 years, and the Jewish population has swelled to nearly 6 million? If you cannot say what should be done, then what is the use of your ranting against Zionism, as it won’t effect any change?
Also, if you are interested in learning Gemara, there is Rabbi Ayson Englander’s “Fundamentals of Talmud” (Yesodei HaTorah) program, which provides the tools to get started with learning Gemara. I think this program is best done with a shiur, but it can also be learned independently.
Artscroll publishes a daily learning program called A Daily Dose of Torah. Each day’s learning is designed to take about 15-20 minutes to complete. Each day, includes thoughts on the weekly parsha (Torah portion read on Shabbos), mishna, gemara, halacha, the siddur (prayer), and a question. This material can be learned independently or with someone else. They currently have 3 sets out, with each set designed to last for a year. This might be a good place to start!
Agreed with notasheep that juice really shouldn’t be given to an infant under a year. I was thinking toddlers in my post.
Is water a better choice than apple juice? Yes. Is it insane and cruel to give apple juice? No.
Apple juice does have a lot of sugar, but at least it is natural fruit based sugar (assuming 100% apple juice is given), which is not as bad as processed sugars or high fructose corn syrup. It’s probably not a good idea to give it “constantly”, but sometimes is fine.
I would argue that apple juice would be a good thing to give to a sick child (assuming it doesn’t bother his/her stomach), since sick kids often eat little, and the juice can provide extra energy and electrolytes.
One suggestion would be to mix the apple juice with water – this makes the juice less sugary and irritating.
HaKatan,
There are very strong anti-Zionists who live under Israeli rule.
But since “Israeli rule” came about due to Zionism, they certainly do not see that situation as desirable. I want to know what your idea is for where we should go from here, if we woke up one morning and Zionist ideology was gone.
One has nothing to do with the other.
The fact of Israeli rule has everything to do with Zionism. Zionism brought about the State of Israel.
I have heard a lot about how Zionism is idolatry, how it’s evil, how it’s shmad, etc. Fine. What I’d like to know is, what is your plan if you could do something about it?
The Zionist usurpers came and decided to create their abominable State in Eretz Yisrael.
But it’s done. 65 years ago. Now there’s nearly 6 million Jews living there, and hundreds of millions of Arabs surrounding those Jews who hate them with every fiber of their beings. So where do we go from here?? I’m honestly curious about your ideas. Suppose all 6 million Israelis came around to your way of thinking.
That is not, in and of itself, a reason to leave Eretz Yisrael.
That’s sidestepping my question. What do we do about the State of Israel?
there are many theoretical possibilities in between, CH”V, shmad and hisgarus baUmos versus large-scale suicide.
Ok! So what are some of these possibilities? You can’t just tear down without building up.
WIY,
I still don’t feel comfortable judging her because there’s no way for me to know all of the circumstances. What you describe though does sound unsafe and uncomfortable, and shouldn’t be done.
If the child is too young to be asked permission then don’t do it.
This reasoning is being used to attack bris milah all over the Western world.
WIY,
The baby was not in any seat just lying across the width of the top small section of the shopping cart
That does sound strange to me. Was the baby lying on a blanket or something at least?
HaKatan,
Suppose every Israeli woke up this morning and said, “you know what, HaKatan was right all along. Zionism is avoda zara.” What exactly should their next step be? To surrender to Hamas?
Juror number 4 just ate the defendant with french fries!
SecularFrummy,
Why is it considered derogatory to call someone a socialist?
Probably because many Americans associate socialism with communism, and the U.S. historically hasn’t had the greatest relationships with communist regimes.
WIY,
I was shopping in the supermarket and I saw a frum woman
Would your reaction had been the same if she weren’t Jewish?
had her baby (maybe 3-5 month old) in the wagon it was the top part so she had him lying across the width.
In a carrier?
What bothered me is that she had a lot of stuff in the wagon it was really full so she put some lighter stuff ON THE BABY. I was shocked.
There’s not enough information for me to share your shock. Was the food directly on top of baby, or by his/her feet? What was the baby’s reaction? Was s/he distressed? Played with the food? Asleep?
Is this how you treat a human being?!
I put things on my lap all of the time. If the baby wasn’t bothered, was it such a big deal? Were you concerned about safety, or the baby’s dignity?
Am I oversensitive or do you agree this is wrong?
Not enough information to answer.