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Dash is correct – you have to make sure all of your units line up, which is best done by showing all work.
Newton’s Second Law: F = ma
The gravitational acceleration is g = 9.8 m/s
Centripetal acceleration is a = v^2/r
So to keep that car on track, you want to balance the centripetal acceleration with gravitational acceleration, so: 9.8 = v^2/r
Your r is known: 50ft, which is 15.24m, so v^2 = 9.8 * 15.24, and v = sqrt(9.8 * 15.24) = 12.22 m/s.
Converting 12.22 m/s into mph and you get 27.3.
It doesn’t seem like the torah learning is a [burden] to you, just the weight of a sefer.
Exactly. I don’t see the equivalence between the learning and the shlepping. Does a guy with a regular sized Artscroll gemara volume get more schar for learning than a guy with the smaller “daf yomi” volume?
In this case, I would have ended up learning the exact same amount — I just would have gotten to the stopping point a few minutes later in my ride.
Assuming that the 10 minutes later train doesn’t magically reach your destination sooner than your normal train, you may well have had an opportunity to learn more than you would have otherwise. I think you did the right thing with your inner critic. 🙂
My cousin got engaged on his third date.
Mazal tov!
Anyone beat that?
Is it a race?
zahavasdad,
Are you arguing that it is not anti-Semitism for someone to imply that a chareidi is a dirty Jew, because you feel it’s a true statement? That seems to be insinuated when you doubled down on your initial post to this thread even after clear examples of the anti-Semitism were posted.
Also, your chiding that Bloomberg never complained about his nasty mail makes no sense in the context of this conversation. First of all, we’re discussing a public thread on a municipal Facebook site that everyone can read, not private letters or rants on a hate group message board. Second, the mayor of Lakewood has not complained in this discussion, unless you think Ctrl Alt Delete is the mayor. Third, why should Bloomberg have complained? He had a security detail, and the NYPD and FBI likely looked into any threats he received.
Avram in MD, who is so wise, figured out how to make romaine lettuce that doesn’t ever need to be checked. (You may call me the devil, if you so wish.)
Suppose you have a world with no bugs in it. None. And then you grow some romaine lettuce. You don’t need to check that lettuce before you use it for maror, or on a sandwich, or in a salad. Because there are no bugs. It’s that simple.
And of course this is totally applicable to the real world. 🙂
holy brother,
Assuming Reuven would want to be treated in a specific form, Shimon feels that this form is not good for Reuven, does the torah want Shimon to treat Reuven in the form Reuven wants, or the form Shimon feels is right?
I do not think that ????? ???? ???? means that Reuven should do something for Shimon that he feels is not good just because Shimon wants it. Saying no to someone does not contradict the idea of loving them. The no should be respectful, just as you would want to be treated when someone says no to you.
DaMoshe,
The fact is that the atzeres was about the draft bill. The chareidim don’t want to serve in the army – so is it a lie to say “so only other Jews die in war”?
It’s a fallacious, libelous and speculative conclusion. Suppose somebody offered me a piece of cheese and I said, “no, thanks.” Given no additional data, is it reasonable for that person to assume that I don’t like cheese, or don’t trust their kashrus, or kill kittens? Perhaps I love cheese, but I just finished off a steak sandwich 20 minutes ago!
Chareidim have provided numerous cogent reasons for not wanting to join the Israeli army. You can perhaps debate whether the reasons are reasonable, but to ignore their reasons and accuse them of considering their blood redder than others is simply slander.
jbaldy22,
This is a widely accepted minhag that to my understanding has been practiced for generations and that is not something to tread on lightly.
I agree with you. Perhaps we can all agree, however, that there is no minhag for public drunkenness or dangerous behavior on Purim? Those issues can certainly be addressed without throwing away the minhag of drinking on Purim.
gavra_at_work,
If Obama won’t back up Ukraine against a clear act of war, after the US signed a treaty to do so to do so in 1994
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances of December 1994 provided assurances that Ukraine’s territory would be respected by the signatories (US, UK, Russia) in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal. In the event that nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine, UN Security Council action is required. Given a territory violation, at most, the treaty could be used as justification for any US or UK actions taken to uphold Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty, but as far as I am aware it does not bind any nation to take such actions. It seems pretty clear that Russia has violated this treaty. I would argue that Russia may have violated the treaty even before putting troops in Crimea through the use of natural gas economic blackmail to stop Ukraine’s negotiations with the EU.
You are clearly bothered by U.S. inaction in Ukraine. What would you recommend that the U.S. do that it is not doing now? Threaten nuclear war? Invade Ukraine to repulse the Russian troops?
why in the world would anyone think that Obama would back Israel in case of a war?
This may be a fair question to ask, but I think it’s weakened when you tie it to the situation in Ukraine, because the U.S. hasn’t failed to honor the 1994 treaty.
Perhaps Israel should re-orient itself towards other countries that have similar interests in fighting the millitant spread of Islam, such as Russia and China.
Do you think Russia or China would support Israel over Iran if G-d forbid there was war?
kfb,
Can someone explain to me why frum yeshivas feel it’s necessary to open school during snowstorms while public schools and modern schools are closed? Besides for the fun of snow days and playing in the snow and having time off, but isn’t it dangerous to keep the yeshiva open?
Public school districts usually base their decision to open or close on whether their school buses can navigate the snow or ice covered streets, or whether conditions may deteriorate during the day where the buses cannot get the kids home. If their decision making were based on broader danger for students coming to school, then they would remain closed for much of the winter, because sidewalks used by kids walking to school may be icy for days or weeks after a snow event, and streets away from bus routes where students live may not be clear. If a particular yeshiva does not utilize buses, then why should it close?
Doesn’t it remind you of socialism?
Uhh, no. Actually, your complaint is more grounded in socialism, since you expect the schools to decide for the parents whether it is safe enough to go to school. It is ultimately the parents’ responsibility to assess conditions and determine whether it is safe to send their children to school. Most streets in a district may be plowed and salted, while yours is still treacherous. If you send your child out and s/he G-d forbid gets hurt, it’s not the fault of the open school, it’s your fault.
HaKatan,
I think that part of the confusion in this debate is that everyone coming into it has a different definition of Zionism. I think we all agree that the idea of putting our trust in the formation and defense of a secular European style nation state as the goal of the Jewish people is A”Z. I think beyond that there is a wide spectrum of what frum people here mean when they refer to Zionism today, and some or most of those concepts are not A”Z (even if you hold all of them to be wrong). Labels change and evolve, and are notoriously imprecise, so it’s possible that when you quote R’ Elchonon and declare Zionism to be A”Z, you may be drawing a much larger circle than he intended.
rabbiofberlin,
Avram in MD and others: … but allow to answer the so-called obtuseness that I am accused of and also Avram’s question.
I never intended to imply that you were obtuse.
The Rambam clearly indicates that a person-not yet know as the Melech Hamoshiach- will wage war to free the jews from their oppressors.
So, please pray tell me how anyone can wage war if the sholosh shevuos are applicable.
I think oppressors may be the key word here. From my understanding, I don’t think that even the most binding interpretation of the shalosh shavuos precludes a defensive war against enemies who try to kill us, e.g., the war against the forces of Haman in Persia. If Moshiach comes through war, I think it would be a war of survival against a king “who’s decrees are worse than Haman’s.”
jewishfeminist02,
“Goodness”? You mean quality?
Sure 🙂
Anyhow, can’t we all agree that music is a matter of personal taste/preference and to each his own?
Once below 115 dB and with kosher words, I’ll agree with you.
rabbiofberlin,
My question is simple: how can the Rambam actually “pasken” (remember, this is Moshne Torah that ratifies halochos)that the Moshiach will wage war against our opressors (he calls them “milchamos Hashem)if the “sholosh shevuos” that prohibit rising up against the gentiles is halacha? Clearly, the Rambam did not accept that the shevuos are halacha and that we are bound by them,as he explicitly paskens against them.
I do not know enough to get into the discussion about the practical applications of the shalosh shevuos. From what I understand, however, the vows are in effect only when the Jewish people are ruled by non-Jewish nations. In the days of Moshiach, the Jewish people will not be ruled by non-Jewish nations, but by Moshiach, so the vows would no longer apply.
Based on the logic in your question, you would also have to ask how it is possible for a nazirite to cut his hair and place it on his korban, when the halacha clearly is that a nazirite does not cut his hair?
crisisoftheweek,
I’m guessing the ba’alei simcha is more concerned with being perceived as “too modern” more than the actual musical quality occuring.
Again, this is an unfounded assumption. Just because you like rock music does not mean that everyone else in the world has to, and that there must be some conspiratorial reason behind it if they don’t.
see if you can keep up with the time signature changes or the massive amounts of chord changes used in a single song.
Ok – so perhaps you’ve proved that rock music can be complex, but complexity doesn’t necessarily correlate with goodness 🙂
crisisoftheweek,
Uhhh..you do realize that by Yeshivish you mean more “klezmerish” which was the rock music of the goyim back in de alter heim.
Uhhh..you do realize that just because the OP does not prefer rock music does not mean he deserves your ridicule of perceived hypocrisy in aversions to music styles in the frum community. Maybe he just doesn’t want his simcha overshadowed by horrendous sounds masquerading as music that utilizes only three chords in an entire song but doesn’t need to use more because the listeners are half deaf by the end anyway.
And if goyish music is an issur of some sort, it might as well sound like it came from this century rather than the soundtrack to a pogrom.
Are you in favor of dumping Beethoven and Dvorak too? Their music is so… 1800s.
hashtorani,
As far as referring to MO/DL as kofrim/ovdei a”z, I agree with you that is wrong to call them that but did not notice him referring to them that way, only to the beliefs espoused.
HaKatan wrote this extrapolation of Rav Elchonon earlier in this thread:
So, according to Rav Elchonon, if you are a proud Zionist (which, according to their theology, includes “MO”) then that makes you a proud oveid A”Z.
While Rav Elchonon may have declared secular Zionism to be a form of A”Z, I highly doubt he pointed fingers at specific groups of Jews and declared them to be idol worshippers. Furthermore, it is clear from HaKatan’s analogy with the worshipers of the baal in the days of Eliyahu HaNavi that he believes the majority of Jews today are infected with this A”Z.
If this were truly how we hold, then since U.S. vaads likely don’t use Zionism as a litmus test to screen out mashgichim, one could not trust any U.S. hechsher. Since the vast majority of rabbonim in the U.S. don’t ask eidim at weddings if they are Zionists before accepting their testimony, then we cannot trust the majority of kesubos.
Somehow I doubt that HaKatan really holds that way, so it might be a good idea to be more cautious with the rhetoric.
DaMoshe,
After 120…
I don’t think it’s a good idea to make this type of statement about any Jew, even if you feel he is misguided. Note that HaKatan wrote this when addressing an IDF soldier:
I wish you G-d’s help to do good for His children, and may you always return home safely and complete in mind and body.
You may disagree with him strongly regarding the State of Israel, but I do not think he means for any Jew to come to harm.
HaKatan,
In response to some IDF actions, some goyim have “retaliated” against innocent Jews because they believe the Zionists’ lies that Zionism=Judaism when, of course, the opposite is true. Yes, these goyim are wrong to do so, regardless. Obviously. But that doesn’t change the alleged “cause” of their actions, the IDF.
I think you are giving these anti-Semites too much credit. I would argue that the State of Israel is more of an excuse for their hatred rather than a reason. Their behavior would be the same regardless of what the IDF does. Anti-Semitism was worse in general before the State of Israel was founded than after. What was the excuse then? After the Holocaust, “traditional” anti-Semitic behavior has become culturally unacceptable, so mainstream haters are cloaking their actions under the guise of fighting apartheid. We can also see anti-Semitism creeping in under the banners of other “liberal” causes, such as bris mila and women’s rights.
As such, I think that religious debates regarding Judaism, Zionism, and the State of Israel should remain “internal” among Jews, and we shouldn’t worry so much about what the non-Jewish Israel haters think.
the-art-of-moi,
It’s definitely a challenge to keep Shabbos in an environment where nobody else is, or where others may even be hostile towards it.
I asked her how shabbos was and she said that it was torture and she didnt feel any of the beauty that shabbos is supposed to have.
Since it’s easier to keep the Shabbos restrictions in an environment not conducive to observance than it is to do the more active components (candle lighting, meals, davening, learning, resting), it may feel to your friend like Shabbos is a day of deprivation, rather than a day of spiritual opportunity. It’s not an accident that Chabad’s Shabbos outreach begins with handing out Shabbos candle sets and an invitation to Friday night dinners, not with lectures about avoiding the 39 melachos.
she also mentioned that her uncle that is boarding at her house often turns the tv on while she is in the room on shabbos and he refuses to stop doing it. Her parents are dysfunctional and cant help her in any way.
I’m not sure that she should rely on those around her to be supportive. If they’re not interested in Shabbos, she won’t get a positive response by forcing its restrictions on them. Rather than fighting with her uncle all day about the TV, perhaps you could suggest that she could reserve some special things to have just for Shabbos – a favorite food or dessert, time to learn something that she otherwise would have no time for, a good book, a walk, a nap, dropping in on a friend, etc. Something to help her look forward to Shabbos.
I also agree with the above posters who recommended a Shabbaton. It’s important for your friend to experience a warm Shabbos atmosphere.
zahavasdad,
A Hillel rabbi on a college campus cannot come off the same as a Charedi Rabbi and dictate to the students what to do, they will just leave.
I don’t think anyone here is advocating that a campus rabbi do that.
Its very important to give a good impression of Yiddishkeit. coming off as standoffish or elitist is not a kiddish Hashem.
If someone refuses a dinner invite because of allergies or celiac, does that make them appear standoffish? A Jew can decline food invitations, and as long as his/her demeanor towards the one inviting remains friendly, open, and warm, there is no issue of coming across as standoffish or elitist.
Should I eat at a non-Jewish co-worker’s house or go to his church to avoid appearing standoffish?
The topic of this thread touches on an issue with some Jewish campus organizations that I have had for some time. Some campus Jewish groups purport to welcome Jewish students of all backgrounds, but these groups seem to have more success in fostering a welcoming atmosphere for less observant students than for more observant students.
I have seen a campus Hillel facilitator work with students to add a Reform Friday night service in addition to the long standing Conservative one, but tell an Orthodox student interested in starting a weekday minyan, “any minyan held in this building has to be egalitarian.” Of course that was perhaps not entirely true, because I’m sure that if a non-Orthodox female student wanted to form a women’s “minyan”, it would have been fully supported.
One would think that a campus Jewish organization headed by an Orthodox rabbi would be more sensitive to the needs of frum students, but we see from this thread that apparently the buck still stops at the rabbi’s observance level. Rather than supporting and facilitating the OP’s desire to maintain her standards from home, the rabbi (perhaps unconsciously, though posters here have explicitly) pressured her to sacrifice her standards on the altar of kumbaya.
This rabbi is likely being paid to assist Jewish students with having a meaningful Jewish experience on campus. Upon hearing that this student feels uncomfortable eating out because of kashrus standards, instead of pressuring, perhaps he could offer to help this student with her observance. “Are you able to find all of the kosher items you need? Our campus group makes a monthly order to have kosher food from NY delivered; perhaps we can add cholov Yisroel milk to the order for you?” Isn’t that what the campus organizations are there for?
Bookworm120,
When did Holmes do that?
What time period defines a thread bump versus a standard response? If I respond to a thread that was last updated 5 days ago, is that bumping?
charliehall,
The halachah is that if someone is a kosher eid you accept their kashrut — or at least their testimony as to what they have done in their kitchen.
I don’t think the issue here is that the OP rejected the campus rabbi’s testimony of his kitchen kashrus. There was never an indication that the campus rabbi was deceitful about his standards. The issue is that the OP is uncomfortable with those standards.
Another halachah is that when you settle in a new community you accept its halachic norms.
This statement may be too general, and even so, the key word is halachic. Certainly if the OP felt that something counter to halacha was taking place, she shouldn’t adopt it. I would also argue that a college campus is not a community in the traditional sense where this halacha would apply.
By not doing these things you are following a different religion from Judaism.
Sorry to be so blunt but this is the kind of mishigas that divides the Jewish people.
I would imagine that in a popa_bar_abba YCT themed thread you would argue that placing people outside the bounds of Orthodox Judaism is divisive. It’s interesting that you are so quick to do it here. It’s also surprising to me that you would direct this kind of statement at a college student who is trying to uphold her religious standards.
oomis,
Nosh certainly HAS made it into the secular vernacular.
We might be thinking about different non-Jewish vernaculars. In places like Wytheville, VA, Johnson, TN, or Huntsville, AL, many people would know what chutzpah means, but few would know nosh (at least when used as a noun). Maybe Bookworm120’s non-Jewish friend was an OOTer 🙂
Bookworm120,
is “nosh” a Yiddish word?
Yes, nosh is a Yiddish word, and I don’t think it has made its way into the American vernacular like “chuzpa” and “oy vey” have.
DaasYochid,
Avram, I thinking telling the rabbi a whole megillah about a policy not to eat in others’ homes unless she knows them well would insult him. At this point, I think the less said, the better.
You’re probably right about that in this case – what’s done is done, he’s probably not losing sleep over it, and nothing more needs to be said Saying something may even stir up issues that otherwise would not have arisen. I suggested saying something about a neutral policy in the case that the OP felt like she had to say something, but perhaps the same idea can be pared down with fewer words.
What approach would you recommend a person in this situation take before the fact, e.g., if you get invited to a meal, or asked if you’d eat at someone’s house? Do you think explaining a policy like I described would be a good idea (maybe the explanation can be shortened), or do you think just making circumstantial “sorry, I’m busy that day” refusals is good enough? The problem I see with circumstantial refusals is that sometimes the prospective host will become persistent in order to appear friendly (How about next week? No? Tuesday the 14th? No? Anytime in March?).
zahavasdad,
DaasYochid answered a lot better than I could have. There must have been an assumption that something like iceberg lettuce would be used (not romaine or other greens), and cross contamination like what Syag Lchochma pointed out would be avoided. Dressing would also be an issue, as well as other common salad additives like crutons, hard boiled eggs, etc. Also, did your rav give you this psak just for the circumstance of your first day on the job business dinner, or did he say eating salads in non-kosher restaurants could be your modis operandi?
zahavasdad,
I also had some pretty frum relatives who had gone on a cruise. And had ordered Kosher Food (You can order Kosher food for cruises at no additional cost – Its airline food) On the same cruise there was a Kosherica cruise (They dont buy the entire cruise just some cabins) and they spoke to the Mashgiach on the cruise and he told them the same thing about the salad.
The problem is not with the mashgiach’s statement, but how you are applying it here. The cruise mashgiach was telling your relatives that that particular salad on that particular cruise was kosher and could be eaten. He was in the kitchen and knew how the salad was prepared (e.g., pre-washed iceberg lettuce that didn’t need checking, vegetables precut in a bag with a hechsher or cut with a dedicated knife). I seriously doubt that he was giving them a carte blanche to eat salads in every treif restaurant, everywhere, forevermore. Salads with unchecked romaine or other leafy greens, or with vegetables cut with a treif knife are problematic. You cannot take a specific psak given in a particular circumstance and apply it to other contexts.
writer.at.heart415,
It was obvious that he caught that I didn’t answer the question, and I feel terrible for my reaction. I know that I should have just lied and said yes and dealt with the consequences whenever they would arise in the future, but I wasn’t thinking on my feet and now I just feel really bad.
I think your sensitivity to the campus rabbi’s feelings is a wonderful thing. My guess is that he wasn’t particularly offended; after all, his job on the campus is to assist a diverse body of Jewish students, not to get emotional reassurance that every student trusts his kashrus and would eat in his home. You stated clearly that you don’t eat in other people’s homes without knowing their specific standards, and he should respect that, even if he thinks it is strange.
If you are still worried about having caused him offense, and assuming that you are planning to largely forgo eating food cooked at anyone’s homes near campus (but are ok with eating food you know to be kosher in their homes), you can perhaps say something like, “I’m sorry I didn’t answer you before, it was hard at that moment to fully describe how I handle kashrus away from home. I would love to eat at your home, but to avoid offending anyone who may have kashrus standards that I am not comfortable with, I have a policy with everyone who I am not closely familiar with, even those who’s standards I would probably trust, to only eat foods that are brought in from an outside kosher establishment with [insert local hashgacha you trust, if any] and are not reheated (or reheated double wrapped). I really appreciate your invitation, but totally understand if my policy is too much of a challenge on short notice. I can bring something too, if that would be helpful…” That way, you can avoid eating at his home (or perhaps eat something there that you feel comfortable eating) without telling him that you don’t trust his kashrus, and also without fibbing that you trust it, but then have to make excuses every time you get an invitation.
Avram, to be fair, this is apples and oranges. No one NEEDS to have pierced ears. But vaccines, on the other hand have saved lives. Car seats, save lives.
I agree with you, but would you go so far as to accuse your friend who is furious with her daughter for not wanting to pierce the granddaughter’s ears of not caring about causing pain to the baby?
SecularFrummy,
Why are so many people okay with causing pain to infants?
I don’t think that this is a fair allegation to make regarding the posters in this thread. Based on your statement’s implications, infants should not be vaccinated (painful) or restrained in car seats (upsetting) without consent.
I think it’s totally valid to argue that pierced ears are not worth the potential trauma to an infant, and I would agree with you. Others disagree, believing that the young girl will almost certainly want pierced ears when older, and the benefits of getting it done in infancy (some were stated above) outweigh the prospect for transient pain that will not be remembered when the girl is older. While I personally disagree with the latter argument, it doesn’t make its supporters callous towards infants.
Why is the Torah against the males and put them into an impossible situation.
Eh?
A women has the right not to work.
How does this harm men?
She has the right to stay home and be taken care of.
In the context of marriage, which, when healthy, is as beneficial (if not more so) to men as to women.
A women has the right too enter in to Contracts
So does a man, where’s the bias?
A women has the right to open a bank account
So does a man, and how do secular laws governing bank accounts reflect on the Torah?
A women has the right to spend money as she pleases.
I’m not sure that is accurate, and even if so, a man does too, so where is the bias?
I am having a very hard time making sense of all 4.
What doesn’t make sense?
As based on this a Women could go out one day enter into a bunch of contracts,
I’m not sure that is an accurate statement.
right checks that cant be cover,
That would be illegal under secular law.
and withdraw and spend all the money in a bank account, and then turn around and say. I am not responsible for covering any of these debts, as i dont have to work.
That is certainly not true.
BaalHabooze,
Only if you’re in the tropics. Jerusalem’s latitude is approximately 31.5 degrees north of the equator. On the summer solstice, the maximum (e.g., noontime) sun angle at that latitude is ~ 82 degrees, and on the winter solstice that angle is ~ 35 degrees. Assuming Sukkos falls out near the autumnal equinox, the sun angle at noon would be approximately 60 degrees, so even at noon the walls are casting a shadow.
Veltz Meshugener,
My question is similar to Logician’s:
Therefore one asks his posek, and doesn’t care what “most” people are doing. What’s the issue ?
If I have a halachic question or situation where there are differences of opinion, I ask my rav a shaila. He takes my whole situation into account and gives me a p’sak.
One thing that I learned after becoming frum (and this may be unique to my own situation and rav) is that it is better when asking a shaila to be very specific about the particular situation prompting the shaila with a goal to get a p’sak just for that situation, rather than phrasing the question in broad terms to seek a general ruling. That way, the answer I receive is tailored exactly to my situation, “bias” free. If I then feel that I need a more general answer to address future instances, I follow up by asking something like, “and if this happens again, what should I do?”
DaasYochid,
Thank you for your brachos, kind words and patient responses. You are also one of my favorite posters in the CR, both because of the extensive knowledge that you contribute, and also because of the sensitivity you show towards all posters in your efforts to allay misunderstandings.
I agree that part of the maelstrom that this thread has become may have originated from misunderstandings on both sides. I can reread the OP and subsequent posts as concern for a relative and halacha, and the responses (me included) largely zeroed in on perceptions of a negative attitude towards the poor or lower paying that may not have been there.
The other misunderstanding may have arisen from the OP’s categorizing the “candy dish” gift giving as the giver’s attempt to patur himself from the mitzvah of paying the shadchan. I wouldn’t necessarily assume that because a person is FFB he knows this halacha, and even if he did, knows what the set amount is. Obviously in the latter case the person should have asked a shaila, but the solution is more complex for the former case. The fact that shadchanim are hesitant to ask for money for their services in of itself is very telling about the state of knowledge in this area. E.g., since everybody knows a plumber needs to be paid for his services, the plumber is not shy about addressing payment.
Gamanit,
Teenage babysitters. Few will tell you over the phone how much they charge,
My wife always asks a potential babysitter what her rate is beforehand, and will offer a rate if the babysitter responds that she doesn’t have one. Similarly, my plumber will give me a range before starting work; “It looks like you’ll need this, which costs around $350, but if I get in there and find that such and such is broken, we’ll need to replace the whole thing and that will run up to $850…” My auto mechanic always calls with an estimate before beginning work on my car. I can look up each dental procedure my dentist recommends to figure out its cost beforehand as well.
Despite the fact that a shadchan deserves payment as much as a babysitter, plumber, mechanic, and dentist, for some reason, it seems culturally more acceptable for the latter professions to state rates beforehand. In other words, a plumber would never have to start a CR thread asking for a polite way to request money instead of a gift for services rendered. Maybe this is what should change. If there is a significant problem with shadchanim not being paid appropriately, then perhaps community rabbis can be asked to highlight the halacha when addressing their communities, or be sure to mention the common rate when speaking to a family making a wedding.
DaasYochid,
Avram, do you have evidence that AZ’s numbers are not correct? If not, you should not be jumping on the OP for inflating them.
You’re right. It was not my intention to accuse AZOI.IS (or his/her relative) of inflating the rate paid to the shadchan. I was primarily responding to the OP’s second and subsequent posts, which gave me the impression that there was a disconnect regarding what the OP thought the rate was and what most people were actually paying. I am not from the tri-state area and do not even know 10 people from the area, so I cannot take a poll as requested; but if the rabbonim in the community hold that the rates are in a range between $500 and $1500, then there is no argument. G-d willing when my children are set to marry, I will not forget to speak to my rav regarding my obligations to the shadchan and I plan to settle things according to halacha.
AZOI.IS,
I apologize for responding so strongly in this thread. I think what really bothered me was this statement:
Just wondering, do poor people feel they dont have to pay Shadchanus
Lo siyeh lo k’noshe – don’t act [towards a poor person] as a creditor.
Your relative definitely deserves compensation for his/her services, but on issues regarding how the Jewish people borrow and repay, it pays to tread carefully.
Health,
Sam – I fail to see where HaKatan said that the holocaust wasn’t the will of Hashem!
I think Sam2 may be getting it from where HaKatan wrote:
By your “logic”, Hashem also wanted the Holocaust and every other tragedy to happen.
That said, I agree with you and am almost positive that HaKatan did not mean that there are things that happen that did not originate from Hashem or were against His will. Rather, Hashem gives humans freedom of choice and responds accordingly based on our actions. Hashem desires that we follow the mitzvos so He can reward us with the greatest and most open relationship with Him, which is the greatest pleasure. If we, cv”s, do not follow the mitzvos, the response we get is certainly Hashem’s will, but ultimately it was not the response that He would have preferred to give to us.
I am very glad to hear that you are doing better.
AZOI.IS,
These are the data that I have gathered from this discussion:
1. Halacha requires that a shadchan be paid for the service s/he did for the couple and their families.
2. The amount of money to be paid is set by the normal rate in the given community.
3. You or your relative thinks the going rate is $2000.
4. You or your relative is ticked off because s/he commonly receives much less than that amount.
From my perspective, the problem isn’t necessarily that the community is not upholding the halacha, but that your relative has a skewed impression of what the going rate should be. After all, it’s set by the statistics of the people paying, not by what the shadchan thinks it should be. In other words, if 10 people pay $200 and 1 person pays $2000, the going rate goes with the 10, not the 1, irregardless if the 1 high payer is less wealthy than the 10, and also irregardless perhaps of what is paid for other wedding expenses such as flowers or food. A florist is probably paid more than a plumber, even though the latter’s work is more vital.
The only evidence for $2000 that I’ve seen other than hearsay is what’s printed on Saw You At Sinai’s Web site. I do not think that a Web site dictates what a community’s going rate is, even if they are getting halachic guidance of their own. In other words, to find out what the going rate is, the couple should ask their rav, not the shadchan’s.
If your relative is truly upset by being paid less than $2000, then perhaps s/he should be up front with the clients before services are rendered what s/he feels the going rate is. Just because the halacha is that a person who performs unsolicited labor deserves payment doesn’t mean unsolicited labor is the way to go. Most people would be very uncomfortable with that.
Maybe we can pay Hamid Karzai to make that point himself!
davidsamual14,
I think strife and judgment between us is what causes us great grief and the darkness that remains all around us.
I agree with you that sinas chinam, strife, and judgmentalism contributes perhaps the most to the darkness of this galus.
I will qualify my agreement, however, with the point that sinas chinam should not be used as a club to squelch dissent or disagreements for the sake of heaven. In last week’s parsha (Mishpatim), the Torah enjoins us lo siyeh acharei rabim l’raos, do not follow the majority for evil.
I hadn’t been to Israel for over 20 years, but when I took my son there for his bar mitzvah, I was awed by the shalom between the Israelis.
That’s amazing, and I am glad to hear that, especially since news from Israel has been so distressing lately.
As you can see from what the Ramchal says, Shalom is a priority.
Again, I agree with you, but shalom alone is not sufficient. The generation that built the tower of Bavel lived in peace – but their mission was not good and ultimately they were scattered across the world.
I think criticisms of how Torah is treated by many in Israel, both within and outside of the government, is legitimate and does not fall under the category of sinas chinam. The state is definitely not acting in accordance with halacha, and I do not think that pointing it out and working to change it or mitigate the consequences is a bad thing.
My goal in this discussion is to understand where HaKatan is coming from, and I believe I have a better understanding of it, and from a conceptual standpoint I don’t think that his views and my views are that different. I think where we may differ is in the approach to it. When a man is sick, he needs a surgeon with the precision to identify and remove exactly what is making the man sick, and to take great caution to injure as little healthy tissue as possible – even if that tissue looks inflamed because of the sickness. What the sick man does not need is someone wielding a club screaming “YOU’RE SICK!! YOU’RE SICK!!” while beating him over the head.
the-art-of-moi,
This thread is really upsetting me
Whenever popa_bar_abba trolling appears sacrilegious on the surface, there is usually something going on under the surface, a subtle point he’s trying to make.
I don’t think popa_bar_abba is objecting to saying tehillim. It sounds to me that he feels like these events he’s going to are cheapening the tehillim by sandwiching them between national anthems and speeches, and treating them as a performance to be watched rather than a service of the heart. His posts are essentially mirroring the attitude towards the tehillim that these events engendered, which is a form of satire.
The fact that he doesn’t explain the satire and lets the denizens go nuts with outrage is what brings his satire to the pedestal of trolling.
PBA – sorry if I’m ruining your fun 🙂
HaKatan,
Thank you for your clarifications. I think I understand better what you are trying to do, and I appreciate your attempt to refrain from judging individual Jews.
I see no reason why any thinking Jew should contradict his faith by being, in addition (and in contradiction), a Zionist.
If possible, would you enumerate the facets of present day Zionism that you hold to be avoda zara? I definitely understand how the original conception of Zionism – the replacement of Torah Judaism with secular nationalism – was A”Z, but it seems to me that that ideology is mostly extinct. Most Israelis today, secular and frum, live in Israel because they were born in Israel, not out of a mission to turn Jerusalem into Berlin or Paris. The shmad of today is coming primarily from secularists, today’s maskilim, who would be opposing public religion no matter where in the world they were. Perhaps you’ll find many more agree with you if there was clarity about what you mean when you say “Zionist”.
Some other specific questions:
Given that six million Jews currently live in the medina, would you consider praying for the welfare of the state and the success of its military against the Arabs during wartime to keep those Jews safe to be ok or not ok (NOT as a change to our nusach, but as a personal prayer)?
What about defending the state from BDS attacks and double standards in the media?
What about working for the government of Israel, e.g., as a government scientist?
Thanks again for your time and patience with my numerous questions.
popa_bar_abba,
Is it better to just let them break the ugly vase someone gave you that you never use?
Nope, I’d argue that it’s better to get them something cheap to play with or break. Otherwise, reasoning that you also never use it, they may break the other ugly vase someone gave you that is priceless.
gavra_at_work,
Sorry I didn’t comment on your plan beforehand.
Create a European union type Superstate over the entire county.
This would be done as part of a peace agreement with the Palestinians and include the West Bank and Gaza, or would this only be in effect within the pre-1967 borders?
Then split it into 5 federal states:
This would seemingly ease the stepping on toes among groups, but how would it solve anything in HaKatan’s world view (e.g., the three oaths, Zionism, etc.)
4: The seculars
Assuming this plan arose from my hypothetical situation where everyone came around to HaKatan’s view of Zionism – I’m not sure there would still be seculars. The views of the religious Zionists would also be quite changed.
Full population swap,
This would cause considerable hardship and resentment.
taxation, benefits, laws, security, etc. only from the federal state.
You mean from the Euro Union style state, or each individual state?
HaKatan,
The point is not what, al pi halacha, the Zionists should do now
Isn’t what, al pi halacha, we should do now is the fundamental mission of Jews? It should be the first question asked by a baal teshuva.
but that everyone should be crystal-clear that they should never have started
We should realize how bad our sins are and feel regret for them, yes, this is the critical first step of teshuva. But to take a fatalistic attitude that nothing can be done about it is to surrender to the yetzer hara. We can always return to Hashem.
So, as to what the Zionists should do after the above, this is for the gedolim of the generation to deal with.
That’s a fair response.
The purpose of the questions I’m asking you is to learn more about the reasons you are here bashing “Zionists.” In an earlier post, you connected your purpose with Eliyahu Hanavi’s battles against the avodah zara of his day. Eliyahu Hanavi’s purpose was not simply to bash avodah zara because it was bad. His purpose was to bring the Jewish people to do teshuva. He was motivated by love for his brethren, even those steeped in sin. If he did not love them, he would not have been worthy of his mission.
Yirmiyahu Hanavi was thrown into prision by the sinful government of Yehuda. Almost nobody listened to him. In fact, there were people pretending to be nevi’im, saying false things and attributing them to Hashem. He could have hated these people, bashed them, called them sinners, washed his hands of them, but when the exile came, he kissed the bloodstained ground where they walked, caught up to them, and attempted to place their chains on himself as well.
I see you doing a lot of Zionist bashing in these forums, taking pains to categorize Jews as sinners, but you spend very little time describing how to do teshuva. Whether intentional or not, this communicates a sense that your words come from a place of shame of association with and hatred of Zionist Jews, not concern for the spiritual well being of the whole Jewish nation. Do you want them to improve, or does your own sense of righteousness come from standing on their heads? Do you see yourself as part and parcel with the Zionist Jews, or do you see yourself as separate from them – that you are a “real” Jew and they are now imposters – divorced from the bris?
But people still believe in the heresy of Zionism and make it (part of) their faith.
Do you believe this can and will change?
HaKatan,
On the other hand, if your question is what should the Zionists do to stop their ill-conceived and shmad-fueled rule of Eretz Yisrael, as in what Teshuva can they do?
Yes, that is my question, albeit rephrased 🙂
The very least they could do is stop shmading our brethren and they could also renounce Zionism in favor of Judaism, for starters. True, there are other significant issues remaining. But that would be a good start.
Ok – now we’re getting somewhere, maybe. You’ve restated my hypothetical situation as your first step: the Zionists have renounced Zionism stopped “shmading” the Hareidim. Now… what happens next? It’s the “significant issues remaining” that I want to know about.
Perhaps you believe that were the Zionists to make such a teshuva, Moshiach would come right away so we wouldn’t have to deal with the remaining issues. That’s a fair belief, but as we do not know exactly when Moshiach will come, I think it is fair to ask, “what should we do next”?
Do we disband the governmental services and army of Medinat Yisrael and let the chips fall where they may? That would be disastrous from a utilities, services, and get slaughtered by the Arabs perspective.
Do we propose to Jordan, the Arab League, or the UN to take over control of Eretz Yisrael, provided they ensure the safety and security of the resident Jews? What if they refuse to agree to that provision? And even if they did, I’m not sure those bodies would be willing or able to enforce such an agreement and stop the ensuing Arab attacks and expulsions against Jews, Hareidim and repentant Zionists alike.
Do we attempt to alter the existing State institutions to fit halachic requirements as best we can until Moshiach comes to take the throne of Am Yisrael, setting up a council of sages to guide this effort? This scenario seems appealing to me in principle, but what about the three oaths?
oomis,
Maybe this thread has helped to make some people more aware that our actions ARE noticed, and judged as well, and perhaps we all need to think about how we are perceived, whether or not we think we are doing something wrong or neglectful.
I agree. Avoiding appearances of evil is just as important as dan l’kaf zechus.