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zahavasdad,
You dont have to have rags, but it doesnt mean you should have a luxury item either.
Why not?
zahavasdad,
ive seen people pull out their eBT card from their Coach or Michael Kors bag.
So why does that bother you? Do you think they are hiding income from the government and thus receiving the assistance illegally? Do you think that poor people should not receive anything nice as gifts, or if they owned it already before becoming poor, to not continue to use it? And if they purchased it even when they really should not have, are you as unforgiving in the case of other mistakes people make?
The Goq,
today it is far too easy to get government assistance and people who use it think it is a right.
So is your argument that people/families who qualify for Federal/State assistance should not take it out of pride, unless their food insecurity or appearance exceeds some limit that you deem acceptably poor? These programs are designed to help prevent people and families from getting to that point.
In the supermarket where i work as a cashier i see tons of people who don’t look to be hard on their luck (have fashionable clothes, fancy phones and handbags) unashamedly using ebt that should only be for the those most in need.
1. Clothing from thrift stores does not come complete with tatters and patches, and can often be quite fashionable. For years, I purchased my Shabbos/dress clothes from thrift stores.
2. Now that clothing is mass produced and relatively inexpensive, it is rare to see someone destitute literally in rags, unless s/he is homeless.
3. Fancy accessories could have been purchased before the hard times, or could have come as gifts.
4. Even if the fancy accessories were purchased by the person/family while receiving assistance, it doesn’t necessarily make them morally bad. Poverty is frequently brought on or aggravated by poor financial decisions due to ignorance or other issues, including pride and shame, which you are advocating for.
I am not allowed to call it food stamps but must call it ebt lest i shame the customer heaven forfend,
Umm, no. You’re not supposed to call it food stamps because it is not food stamps.
yesterday after a customer used their ebt card there was a small balance and she said how much is my cost? and she did not look at all destitute far from it. Why do these people not realize that they are on ASSISTANCE from the govt? why do think it is a right? why do they have no shame???
What would have satisfied you, seeing her have to remove items from her cart and not purchase them while blushing and blinking back tears? EBT does not cover a lot of food. As you wrote in all caps, it is ASSISTANCE, so people are going to still have to pay for items out of pocket.
ubiquitin,
Please please please, I am asking very nicely.
You’ll have to be patient. Health is writing the textbook now, and won’t know what the final title is until after it’s come back from the publisher.
🙂
Neville ChaimBerlin,
How? By standing by a frontrunner’s national security plan?
No. It was your excuse, when prevented with evidence refuting your claim of the “majority”, that American voters are easily swayed.
To paraphrase our argument:
Neville: The silent majority of Americans agrees with this!
Avram: Actually, recent polling data show otherwise.
Neville: Then they’re just brainwashed.
Really? Do you know what the majority of Americans think better than they do themselves?
It has been shown many times on this thread that Trump’s plan is by no means radical when put into historical perspective.
And as I already responded above, your historical context argument would also apply to slavery, Jim Crow laws, and forced sterilizations.
To put it simply: just because it has historical precedent does not mean it is reasonable or right.
You’re perfectly allowed to disagree with his ideas; Trump’s supporters aren’t the ones doing the censoring here.
Now this is interesting. Who is censoring Trump? Has he been arrested for his speeches? Does he have to wear an ankle monitor because of what he has said? Has the government ordered newspapers to stop any coverage of him?
No. The only thing that has happened is that people who disagree with him have exercised their own First Amendment rights, and you seem to have a problem with that.
Mashiach Agent,
their shaking wake-up call messages from Hashem delivered each down to the world a day or two after each tragedy occurred
That is some good satire there!
Neville ChaimBerlin,
Of course after days of non-stop liberal media articles claiming that agreeing with Trump equates to racism, the polls will be a bit skewed. You think if an anonymous poll had asked Americans about limiting Muslim immigration days after the Boston marathon bombing or after 9/11 the numbers would be under 50% in support? It’s common sense!
1. The poll I cited was conducted before Trump’s Muslim immigration ban statement and the subsequent media furor, so sorry, your point of attack does not even apply.
2. Trump’s supporters by and large despise the “liberal media”, so the more he’s attacked, the more they like him.
3. After ranting about liberals thinking that the majority of Americans are “too stupid” to govern, it’s truly ironic that you turn around and make what is essentially the very same argument.
The “Fundamentals of Talmud” method developed by R’ Ayson Englander, which is used for teaching Gemara learning skills at Yesodei Hatorah (Baltimore) and other places may fit what you are looking for.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
There’s nothing “fascist” about representing a majority of a democratic country. The only fascists on this thread are the ones saying their opinions outweigh the majority of the country.
Can you supply any proof that Trump’s statements or positions are in line with a majority of Americans? Especially when a recent NYT/CBS News poll found that 64% of respondents were concerned or frightened by the prospect of a Trump presidency and what he would do as president, including a third of registered Republicans?
Neville ChaimBerlin,
Also, the US isn’t defined by a plaque on a French-made statue. We’re defined by our past actions, and what Trump is proposing is totally consistent with them.
1. The poem was written by Emma Lazarus, a Sefardic Jewish American poet whose family lived in the Americas since Colonial times. Part of her motivation for writing the poem was the plight of Ashkenazic emigrants from Russia due to pogroms. Nothing French about it. And the fact that it was selected for a plaque on one of the quintessential American national symbols speaks to the fact that it does represent American ideals.
2. Past actions of Americans include slavery, Jim Crow, massacres of native Americans, forced sterilizations, etc. Does that define us in your mind? And since those atrocities were committed in the past, would that legitimize someone coming along and advocating for it today?*
* NOTE: I am not implying that Trump has advocated for any of those things, rather I am applying your logic.
I think this thread is interesting because it provides what might be the biggest trove of crazymaking and countering I’ve ever seen in writing.
This point by 2scents:
Also, it’s important to point out, in an MCI it’s one patient per crew the care the pt gets is the same in a single car mva as would be in an MCI.
combined with this point by DaasYochid:
Maybe if you tell them to follow protocol, they’ll read your post and follow it.
provides the check and mate to this discussion.
scared driver delight,
What does that have to do with anything???
Beats me.
popa_bar_abba,
In many crashes you can tell who is at fault. So is a rear end collission like a 1 car collission? Or if one car veered into oncoming traffic?
Probably.
2scents,
The same is for Patients from a one car or multi car MVA. the fact that you believe (and could very be true) that pts from single car MVAs are more likely to have an underlying medical that caused the accident does not change the assessment or treatment at all.
Yes, I understand your point, and the reasoning behind the protocol you are describing. Diabetic shock probably doesn’t matter so much if the person is not getting oxygen due to trauma. I wasn’t intending to comment on the EMS/ER protocols in this thread, just that the notion that a single car crash may have a higher probability of a medical/intoxication cause makes some sense to me. And I don’t have empirical proof either way.
Avi K,
do the repair people accept pledges?
Maybe if they’re done with the little fold-up tabs.
And I’ll point out that I am not a medical professional nor do I study traffic accidents, so I cannot comment on what the protocol is for treating accident victims. I’m just saying that the idea that the potential for dealing with medical impairment in the case of a single car accident is higher makes sense to me.
popa_bar_abba,
That doesn’t make any sense. There is no more higher probability of driver impairment causing a 1 car crash than a 2 car crash, and even if it is higher, I don’t believe it would be so significantly higher as to make checking for impairment protocol in one and not the other.
You’re making this up. Give us proof.
Assuming the first responders do not know the cause of the crash and are just transporting patients to the hospital, in the case of a single car crash, the patient you are transporting is more likely to be the cause of the crash than in the case of a multiple car accident.
So as a simplistic model, let’s say that 20% of the people who cause wrecks do so because they are impaired in some way, and 0% of the people involved who didn’t cause it are impaired. Next, you have two incidents, a single car (1-occupant) crash, and a crash involving two vehicles (1-occupant per vehicle). In each crash, there is one injury. For the single car crash, there is a 100% chance that you are transporting the person who caused the wreck, so there is a 20% chance of impairment. In the second case, there is only a 50% chance that you are transporting the person who caused the wreck, so there is only a 10% chance of impairment.
I would also argue that impairment is more likely in the single car crash, because you remove a component of human error from the potential causes.
Joseph,
What is the best methodology in disciplining a child?
Connection and boundaries.
zahavasdad,
additionally davening is always the best option of them all.
You dont just daven for the job, you apply for the job and then daven.
Did you read the rest of assurnet’s post? Why are you disagreeing with him by stating exactly what he stated?
He wrote:
The way I see it if you do both then at least you covered all your bases and did the best you could
Joseph,
How can we identify the modern-day eruv rav
1. The eruv rav may sometimes be seen along the edges of a frum community on Fridays.
2. If a particular rav declares “down!” on Friday before Shabbos, and then nobody carries anything outside on Shabbos, you’ve found your man.
and how should they be dealt with?
I think they like donations. Eruv repairs can be costly.
2scents,
Feivel that is not correct, first as Popa pointed out, all of these factors can be the cause of a multi car MVA.
I see that point, but wouldn’t the probability that a patient has some sort of medical impairment, such as diabetic shock, be higher in a single car crash?
DaasYochid,
In a matter of time, they will no longer care to be considered Orthodox.
I think that has become more likely after the Moetzes statement (which was likely part of the purpose of the statement). For the time being, however, they are attempting to redefine what Orthodox Judaism is, so being considered “Orthodox” is important to that end.
DaasYochid,
Coffee addict is right. Their approach to halachah is agenda driven. At some point, when there is enough driving them (pardon the pun) towards chillul Shabbos, they will do that, just as conservative, which was supposedly halakhic, did.
True, other things may fall first, but it’s just a matter of time.
I agree with you and coffee addict that they are capable of this. If they decide down the road to drop the “Orthodox” moniker, then all bets are off. If they try to keep the label, however, they will preserve some tokens of observance in order to say, “hey! We’re Orthodox!” I personally think that driving on Shabbos would be one of those tokens, since it’s perceived as a “challenge” to do, but is uncontroversial in the secular liberal mindset.
B1g B0y,
What aspect of online behavior are you studying?
coffee addict,
now you see how it’s possible for them to matir driving on shabbos?
The more I think about it, the more I think it is less likely that the Open Orthodox would pick driving on Shabbos as a battleground. Driving on Shabbos outside of a life threatening medical or dangerous situation has been more or less a universally accepted dividing line between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Judaism for decades. Non-Orthodox Jews are not offended by the restriction or that definition of Orthodoxy.
So I think it is more likely that Open Orthodox leaders would keep these type of restrictions (driving on Shabbos, some level of kashrus), using them as a pretense for Orthodoxy, while grinding down or pushing past other dividing lines such as mechitza, taharas hamishpacha, and marriage issues.
coffee addict,
Let’s say open orthodoxy eventually had its congregants move to auburban areas then what would happen?
I don’t know.
Oh, did I say capacitor? I meant caprachinator.
Meno,
No, and neither is “cometandic.” I’m waiting for B1g B0y to tell 2scents that he needs to move his brefentic processor to the cloud so he can install the correct flux capacitor in order to install W10 through the tractor beam.
Sam2 and coffee addict,
They could drive on shabbos without batting an eyelash and still call themselves orthodox, at least reform an conservative changed their name
ca: Nah. They’ve been more “halachic” than that so far. I don’t see that coming.
Driving on Shabbos was a big issue for the conservative movement, because the vast majority of its adherents were suburbanites who did not cluster around synagogues. Note that the ruling permitting driving on Shabbos came in the 1950s, but counting women as part of a minyan did not start until the 1970s, and the first conservative female rabbi was ordained in the mid 1980s.
Open Orthodoxy at this point seems most active in more urban areas, where walking to synagogue is more feasible (and as an aside, in line with environmental activism), so that is not where the pressure to change is coming from. So I agree with Sam2 that we are not likely to see a blanket permission to drive on Shabbos ruling from the Open Orthodox movement in the near future.
DaasYochid,
In that situation, leave a note.
Exactly what I was thinking.
zahavasdad,
People jump off the GW Bridge all the time, Getting stuck in traffic right before traffic also happens all the time on Fridays. And I also belive many people in the same circumstance would do the same thing
I actually don’t think that either story (missing kid “Mincha Service” at a football game and the GW Bridge Shabbos divers) is true, although for the sake of the discussion here it doesn’t really matter, since both stories reflect basic themes that are true. They may well have been based on true stories with details that got changed or exaggerated over time with the retelling.
1. Reporting a missing kid would result in a search and police response, not just a loudspeaker announcement (would a little kid be able to find his way to “Section 301, left side”?), and subsequently big trouble for the guy who reported what turned out to be a fabrication. If such a thing were actually done, it would have been a request to locate an adult who got separated from his party.
2. When you originally presented the story, you said the guy was driving into Manhattan from Teaneck, but the version in the link you provided had the guy driving out of the City to the Catskills.
3. Given a stopped car with flashers on, I would think the most likely conclusion would be that the car was abandoned due to malfunction. Would police really send divers into the cold river without a witness to the jump, a suicide note, or any other indication? How would they even know where in the river to search?
4. Would the police really be instantly angry when someone turned out not to be dead?
Absolutely.
Syag Lchochma,
And the fact that some of you are brushing this off without being disturbed by the sheker and geneivas daas issues is both horrifying to me and says a lot about how you live your lives. [emphasis mine]
What does it say, and what do you mean?
zahavasdad,
Reminds me of a story I once heard, A guy was going from Teaneck to Washington Heights Friday afternoon and was delayed. Shabbos arrived and he was stuck on the George Washington Bridge and he pulled over and walked from there. The Port Authority police seeing an abandoned car on the middle of the bridge though it was a bridge jumper and sent out divers to find him (endagering their lives). he found this out when he tried to retrieve his car from the pound
Do you believe the man in this story was also a rasha?
coffee addict,
That guy is a self centered rasha
I found the story to be very funny, but in the context that I don’t believe it actually happened. If it did happen in real life, I would think the person would also believe that he was being “funny”, and not really cognizant of the consequences or maliciously deceitful. So thoughtless, yes. Stupid? Yes. Self centered? Probably. But a rasha? I doubt it.
If popa_bar_abba’s wife grew things like parsley as her houseplants, then it wouldn’t be so weird. And if the plant spent its entire life cycle indoors, then perhaps it didn’t need checking?
Vienna,
I understand from all the comments that the leaders are against it and it’s not traditional,
As skripka noted above, the ordination of women is not the only issue that led to the kol korei.
but does anyone think there’s anything inherently wrong with having a female Rav? If so, what? Why can’t a woman speak Torah from the bimah?
If the primary role of a rabbi was to speak Torah from the bimah, then assuming there was a way around any issues of tznius, perhaps there wouldn’t be any further serious problems with a woman being a rabbi. Orthodox women give lectures and shiurim all of the time. The thing is, that’s not the main purpose of a rabbi.
Perhaps the most important role of a rabbi is to serve as a dayan: a judge who sits as part of a beis din to rule on matters of halacha. According to halacha, a dayan must be male, so to appoint a woman as a rabbi doesn’t really make sense. So when Open Orthodoxy ordains women, they are doing either or both of the following: 1. Altering halacha to permit women to be judges, and/or 2. Altering what a rabbi is. From an Orthodox standpoint, where halacha is our lifeblood, and the arbiters of halacha are rabbis, such actions are regarded as highly dangerous.
Personally, this reminds me of Jackie Robinson and baseball. At first everyone said black people would ruin baseball, but then everyone just shrugged and accepted it.
I think the comparison of Orthodox Jewish viewpoints to racist ones is fallacious and offensive.
flatbusher,
I still don’t understand the fuss people make about sushi.
Bad fuss or good fuss?
zahavasdad,
You can say how great the YU candidate is, He is more qualified. Got a degree in psychology , has a great personality and will get more people to come join the Shul
The thing is, both candidates may come off as qualified. Both may have degrees in psychology. Both may have great personalities, and both may cause 3,000 new families to apply for shul membership the minute after the first sermon. Both may have saved a kitty on the way to the interview. But one will preserve the Orthodoxy of the shul, and the other one will not. If that is important to the people in the shul, then they need to know. I think that is the point of the kol korei.
zahavasdad,
I do not support attacking the Avi Weisses is not because he is right, but because the lay people can get protective of their rabbi and will take an attack on him as an attack on themselves,
The difference between my approach and the Moetzes is I want to show people the postive points of view and not the negative points of view
I understand, and agree that in different circumstances that would be the ideal approach. As I see it, what complicates things is:
1. The Open Orthodox movement is trying to set up a “have your cake and eat it too” situation, claiming that one can adhere to traditional Torah Judaism while violating those traditions at the same time. So simply showing them the beauty of Torah would garner the response, “hey, we do that too!”
2. The movement is actively attempting to supplant the mantle of “Orthodoxy.”
If you have specific ideas for how these two issues can be addressed in a purely positive and inclusive fashion, I’d be very interested to learn them.
zahavasdad,
I eat it with my bare hands.
I’m not a wine connoisseur, but in general the less like cough syrup it tastes, the more I like it.
zahavasdad,
Rather than condemn these places , why not open an alternate place instead and show them the true torah lifestyle.
There is a wealth of alternate places, B”H.
Here’s the problem: the leadership of Open Orthodoxy does not want to be shown anything. They want to shake things up and remake the landscape in their own image. You seem to assume that the Open Orthodox are victims of aggression, and that mainstream Orthodox are the aggressors, but in reality they give as good as they get, if not more so.
As far as day to day interactions, I try my best to treat everyone I meet with kindness and sensitivity. Affiliation does not affect that.
zahavasdad,
(I dont know of any others except for the Hebrew Institute).
In communities not far from mine, there are three Open Orthodox shuls (two of which were previously Orthodox shuls, and one still uses the term “modern Orthodox” instead of Open Orthodox), and a private school with an Open Orthodox rabbi as religious supervisor (previously modern Orthodox). The Open Orthodox rabbis have even formed their own vaad hakashrus, and are extremely vocal outside of the frum community, often criticizing the mainstream Orthodox bodies.
zahavasdad,
If I told you that I slap the pickled ginger right on top of the sushi rolls like lox on a bagel – apparently a faux pas in the sushi eating world, but I’m not about to stop doing it – would you still drink wine that I touched?
zahavasdad,
There is an old adage, you catch more flies with Honey than vinegar.
1. Vinegar attracts flies better than honey, so I usually say bees when using that adage 🙂
2. I do not believe that swaying the Open Orthodox leadership back into the fold was the intention of the kol korei.
Syag Lchochma,
it isn’t the condemnation of the movement that is being complained about. It is the condemnation of the individuals in the movement. ZD is saying that if many of them are just following their Rabbis, as we are all instructed to do, then why is it right to deal so harshly with them on an individual level ie, inclusion in minyan.
I agree with your sentiments here about condemnation of the individuals. I think it is vitally important to step carefully and, as the rules for fighting fair states: attack the problem, not the person. B”H most of the Orthodox people I interacted with before I became frum myself behaved in that manner, even though they would say everything that was said in the kol korei about the movement I grew up in.
When I read the kol korei, I do not see the condemnation of people that you, zahavasdad, and others seem to see. To me, it seems to be laser-focused on the OO movement and its leaders. Everything else (the wine, minyan, etc.) is extrapolation, not interpretation.
Furthermore, zahavadad’s point which you repeated (they are just following their leaders) seems to provides the best justification for issuing such a kol korei.
If I am missing something, please let me know.
Syag Lchochma,
tuna > sushi > morning sickness for 4 months > gefilte fish
Funny!
zahavasdad,
It has been interepred that “now we know whose wine we can drink and who can be part of a minyan”
“It has been interpreted that” are weasel words. The only interpretation I’ve seen to that effect came from an Internet sock puppet.
It seems here people dont get my point, Its not what was said, but how it was said
Can you point me to something specific written in the kol korei that bothers you?
Back to Gan Eden to throttle a certain snake before it spoke to anyone… 🙂