Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
DaasYochid,
I don’t think this was talking about unzerer.
Correct. I am referring to legally entitled recipients of government aid.
Avram, was this what you were referring to?
Yes, that thread has factored heavily into my responses to this thread and the one in which I was OP.
squeak,
The equivalent example is someone who burns down his own house to get insurance money. Charity is a safety net, but it is not insurance.
Fine, poor choice of analogy on my part. Have a good Shabbos.
squeak,
it was pretty obvious that you were trying to engineer someone into setting you up for your coup de grace,
No, I was interested specifically in zahavadad’s answer, but since I won’t get one, I used yours as a proxy.
and I was pretty disappointed in your hand once you played it.
Well it’s a good thing I don’t exist to satisfy you.
You are way off topic if you believe that we are talking about the generic US welfare program receipient in this conversation. They typically are driving old pickup trucks not lexuses.
You obviously don’t interact with typical recipients. Poor purchasing decisions are extremely common among all Americans, impoverished included. And I don’t really believe the Lexus shpiel anyway; zahavasdad made that one up and I was just asking him a question on it.
This conversation is about unzerer welfare receipients, who by and large live upper middle class lifestyles made possible by having discovered the absolute best possible way to maximize benefits and have succeeded tremendously, with a great deal of “credit” due to entire organizations dedicated to this goal.
You may want the conversation to be about your fictitious Welfare Queens, but it is not. Reagan’s Welfare Queen bogeymen were engaged in illegal activities, e.g., being eight people (identity fraud) as he said, not legal recipients, which I am addressing alone. I do not think it is possible to truly live an upper middle class lifestyle and be on assistance simultaneously and legally. Sorry, but your unzerer is an enforcement problem, not a problem with the assistance.
I don’t think I used the word lazy
No, but it was strongly implied.
If you can’t see how that can drive an average person crazy, then you are not nearly as level headed as your years of posting here indicate.
There’s a difference between understanding that an average person would be driven crazy by it, and why that is so, and even feeling that way myself at times (which I do), and accepting it as a correct and valid response.
Disclaimer: wrote this response very quickly with little proofing.
If you’ve met Joseph, how many posters do you count?
🙂
RebYidd23,
How is walking around on four legs and eating grass evil? Stupid if you’re human, but not evil.
Suppose you lock up an animal in a cramped space, keeping it from roaming and devoid of companionship, and you feed it inadequate food until it dies. Is that not an evil thing to do?
By acting like an animal, a human being confines his neshama, keeping it from rising, deprives it of companionship with Hashem, and fails to keep it fed via spiritual growth. Is that not an evil thing to do?
squeak,
But there is no tayneh that the money is being taken from hard working people under the guise of desperation for charitable assistance
Hence my recent ranting OP. Why think of government programs as charity, as opposed to insurance, or a safety net? Yes, hard workers pay taxes that go towards these programs, but if one day Heaven forbid that hard worker gets sick or injured, or gets laid off, or whatever, those programs are there to ensure that they and their families do not starve, have access to antibiotics, and can keep a roof over their heads.
flatbusher,
What’s more the assumption is one going to grad school is gaining knowledge and training that will qualify them for employment and in effect they will “repay” what they have gotten through taxes of earned income.
Based on this reasoning, would you advocate for universal free or heavily subsidized college or university education for all US citizens? After all, a few years’ investment would eliminate the need for low income assistance, and thus it would ultimately pay for itself and reduce the Federal budget beyond that, right?
zahavasdad,
Is it legitimate to claim government benefits so a person can raise a family while going to grad school?
Just because others are doing something wrong, doesnt mean we should copy them. We should be on a higher level
You think that is a wrong use of government benefits? I spoke to a social worker who was involved in processing applications for these benefits who said that that is the “poster child” case for these programs. What on earth do you think is a legitimate case?
squeak,
Why should I work so hard and have no disposable income while this guy [on government assistance] gets to take it easy and have everything I have plus more?
Aha! Thank you for this speculative answer. This is the type of answer I was anticipating from zahavasdad to my question, although he refuses to answer me. My response to this line of thinking is that its root is a sentiment (born partly from Puritan theology) that effort and wealth are directly proportional. This sentiment has some good to it: it is motivational and a pillar of the American Dream. But it also can result in an attitude towards poor people that their poverty is their own fault. Because if they just work harder, then they wouldn’t be poor. And the fact that they take government assistance instead of lifting themselves out of poverty by their own bootstraps demonstrates that they are lazy. This may be true in some cases, but it is certainly not the rule.
If I see people on government assistance driving a Lexus, I can make a number of either favorable or unfavorable assumptions based directly on the observation. They were recently well off but fell on hard times, the car was a gift, they have poor budgeting/spending habits and therefore bought something they couldn’t afford and are hurting for it, they have poor impulse control, they have deep insecurity and desire a fancy car as a status symbol, they stole it, they’re kleptomaniac millionaires who hid their wealth from the government because they love Medicaid more than their employer’s insurance benefits, etc. etc. But lazy? That not logically follow from seeing a Lexus. That assumption is born through the prejudice of the observer.
When an animal acts like an animal it is not evil.
When a human acts like an animal, it is evil.
flatbusher,
OK, so is it legitimate to claim government benefits just so a person can remain in kollel? If a person is able to earn money by working, is it right for a person to use food stamps and get section 8 just to support their kollel lifestyle?
Is it legitimate to claim government benefits so a person can raise a family while going to grad school?
newbee,
There is only legal and illegal. Smelling does not matter. And a judge determines if it is legal or not in this country.
I agree. And to a large extent, the “smell” says more about the smeller than the doer.
This thread is getting really off topic and silly, I wonder how much longer its going to last.
Do you think this digression is sillier than the OP??
zahavasdad,
Look we all know …
Look, are you ever gonna answer my question? Why can’t a person receiving EBT own a nice car, or wear nice clothing, or have a nice bag?
Nobody really knocks people who speed, however you hear alot about people who get unwarranted Food Stamps, Section 8 and other government money.
We are not talking about unwarranted assistance, but rather legally received assistance that you happen to have a problem with simply because the recipients are Jewish and in Kollel.
And it’s funny to me how one moment you decry the evils of even coming close to the legal line, and the next you out-of-hand dismiss an outright illegal act. Speeding can kill people, by the way, whereas a Jew in kollel receiving food assistance is pretty safe for bystanders.
And I said a Nice car not a car.
Umm, I said nice car too.
You posted before about a Honda Odeyseey. That is not a nice car.
What? I guess you haven’t been in one lately. A new Odyssey runs around $30 to $45k, which is right in line with the Lexus ES (sedan) or NX/RX (SUV) series.
people need a car to get around.
Right, so if a man with a good job and a Lexus suddenly becomes unemployed and needs government assistance, would you demand that he give up the Lexus?
zahavasdad,
Obviously you dont get my point, A person who is a Kollel person should not just study torah, he should live torah and people should be able to look at them and say What a Kiddush Hashem they are.
Actually, I get your point, and it may surprise you, but I agree.
What I am disagreeing with is your arbitrary definition of a “legal yet still gray” area.
When people have to do things to surive to learn in kollel that are bordering the fence between legal and illegal it does not create a kiddish hashem.
So a while back you stated that a person receiving EBT benefits should not own a nice car. I asked for an explanation and didn’t receive one. You are making the same type of case in this thread, so perhaps you can explain to me now why owning a nice car is a “gray area”?
The ‘Smell good” term was used to describe this greyish area of legal vs illegal
That’s different from what you wrote above. Above, you stated that something could be legal, both from a civil and halachic standpoint, yet still fail some sort of arbitrary smell test. I think we can agree that it’s not a good idea to flirt with illegality, but who gets to be the arbiter of what wholly legal activities smell good or bad? What if I decide one day that Kollel people shouldn’t drive red cars on Interstates, because people who buy red cars must be speeders. Just doesn’t pass the smell test. ?
With enough chrain the fish can climb a tree.
squeak,
its stated openly in the HUD contract that the owner is not a family member of the renter.
Thanks, good information. Zahavasdad assumed it was legal, e.g.,
its legal and not against Halcha, but it certainly doesnt smell good.
and thus I took it as a given. My question to him still stands, even if the example employed in this discussion does not.
It’s breach of contract. Which may or may not be illegal.
Is it a breach of contract (not illegal, but could result in termination of arrangements and/or financial penalties), or is it providing false (or witholding) information on an application for funds, which would likely be illegal?
zahavasdad,
Like is it Ok to use section 8 to pay for rent on a house owned by your father-in-law, its legal and not against Halcha, but it certainly doesnt smell good.
Can you explain to me why it doesn’t “smell good”?
Joseph,
The point certainly does have meaning once you understand the underlying message. Namely that learning more Torah is better than learning less Torah.
What do you mean by “the point”?
As for your second sentence, I agree 100%. But as I wrote to DaasYochid, learning Torah is an act, whereas the OP is referring to the inherent value of a person.
DaasYochid,
It is functionaly meaningless (or worse) if used to justify life choices, and especially if to be haughty.
It is not functionally meaningless if the values and prioritization of values are used to make life choices.
In your response to me, you’re discussing the value of an act versus the OP, who is talking about the value of a person. In my mind these are two very different things. We can definitely rank and compare actions and lifestyles, but not people, unless perhaps one is a navi.
Avi K says everyone needs to do their job. Okay, but what if someone has the ability to do either? Should he choose to spend most of his day learning Torah or computer programming?
Learning Torah.
flatbusher,
In some recent threads that I’ve participated in, I get the impression that there are people out there who seem to suggest that somehow people who are in kollel are better than Jews than the rest of us frum people. Is there any basis for believing that?
Wait a minute, you mean to tell me that there are people out there who justify their own life choices by insinuating that they are better? I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you!
Welcome to humanity 🙂
Joseph,
The teretz is that all other things being equal, a person who learns Torah more is better than a person who learns Torah less.
I agree; however, it is fundamentally impossible for two separate people to have “all other things” be equal. So this answer is functionally meaningless.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
How can a person argue that a candidate who gets the nomination by popular choice would fare worse in an election than some RNC crony forced on us?
Because in the general election, the “us” expands from just registered Republicans to the entire American electorate. And in a recent Quinnipiac poll, 50% of registered voters indicated that they would be embarrassed by a Trump presidency.
Ubiquitin: “If say, Rubio is forced on them what do you think will happen, they will vote for Hillary? “
I would.
Really?? Seriously? You’d cut off your nose to spite your face like that? And here all this time I thought you were a conservative on principle.
zahavasdad,
There are 2 seperate issues, Preventing a sin from happening and what to do AFTER sin happens and there is nothing you can do about it, and how to react to the aftermath of the sin
So I’ll repeat what I wrote in response to WolfishMusings: After the fact, if “containing the damage” was Hashem’s top priority, why would He permit mamzerim to marry at all?
WolfishMusings,
The question is, should a mamzer(ess) marry and have children. It is commonly expressed how terrible it is to bring mamzerim into the world.
I think the terribleness of bringing about mamzerim you are referring to is primarily directed towards the initial circumstance. After the fact, if “containing the damage” was Hashem’s top priority, why would He permit mamzerim to marry at all?
In other words, what Hashem hates is the behavior that causes a mamzer in the first place, as opposed to the mamzer himself.
1. If a mamzer wants to prevent an increase in the number of mamzerim in the world, can he willingly not marry and have children?
For mamzerim to find permitted and suitable potential spouses would be miraculous; why should they deny themselves happiness due to sins that were not their fault?
2. Should we discourage known mamzerim who do want to marry from doing so, again with the goal of not increasing the number of mamzerim in the world?
I think the focus would be better placed on preventing the sins from which mamzerim originate.
3. If he wants to decrease the number of mamzerim in the world, can he consider suicide?
Umm, what? Where in the Torah is it ever suggested that murdering a mamzer is permitted?
If the answers to any of the above questions is no, how do we reconcile this with the idea that HKBH clearly does not want mamzerim?
I think your focus on this issue is a bit off. What HKBH does not want to happen is the circumstances that produce a mamzer ab origine, e.g., adultery, not the mamzer per se.
akuperma,
milder hurricane seasons due to a decrease in temperature differentials between tropics and temperate climates
Given that tropical cyclones develop in barotropic (i.e., the temperature distribution is uniform) environments, why would a reduced temperature gradient between the tropics and mid-latitudes have any effect on their frequency or intensity?
charliehall,
Because she would be a better President than most of the Republicans running.
Out of curiosity, seeing that you wrote “most” instead of “any”, which of the Republican candidates do you feel would potentially be an equally good or better president than Clinton?
zahavasdad,
I support Food stamps, medicaid Section 8, but more as last resort.
How would such a “last resort” condition be evaluated or enforced?
That doesnt mean you have the right to drive your lexus while collecting Tzdekah. Nobody says you can have a car and get Medicaid, but it doesnt mean you should be driving a Lexus either.
That’s just a restatement of what you already said above. I am asking you why you think that way.
lesschumras,
Why isn’t anyone concerned with maraas ayin?
How is this an issue of maris ayin? What aveira is being committed by wearing nice clothing?
When a forum person comes to a Medicaid clinic dressed inn fancy clothes and jewelry, it raises eyebrows with the other patients.
Probably not with the other patients. Maybe with the clinic staff. Doesn’t make it right though.
The clothes and jewelry most likely were purchased in better times, but shouldn’t be worn to a clinic.
I don’t agree with you, but I understand your reasoning in this specific case (Medicaid clinic). Out of curiosity, do you agree with zahavasdad’s more restrictive notion above, that poor people shouldn’t have fancy things at all, not just at the Medicaid clinic? I asked him why not, and he didn’t respond to me, but if you agree with him, I’d really like to hear the reasons articulated.
coffee addict,
As someone who is about to get off assistance I can tell you firsthand that food stamps create a dependency on it that you get on food stamps when you need it and then you budget your life based off of it.
Of course you budget your life based off of it. That’s why it’s there, to help you make ends meet. In your opinion, would you have been better off without SNAP?
It becomes very addicting to the point that you try to make less money just to stay on it.
Because at the income level considered high enough to be off it it, there is still a risk of food insecurity. The solution to this would be to raise the maximum allowable income.
It has turned into an idea of “spending money for being “poor”” mostly because there are almost no restrictions and it’s on a card instead of checks
Well, according to Avi K that is a great mitzva, because through that spending, you are ensuring that the cashiers and other grocery employees have a job. But given that SNAP generally provides less than $50 per week per person for food, which is not a whole lot, did you frequently have big issues with surplus funds?
Avi K,
child care allowance (and BTW, the US has allowances in the form of tax credits)s have been cut drastically
And do you think this cutting is responsible for Israel’s economic growth?
and health care is semi-private (the National insurance Institute acts as a collection agent for the HMOs and also subsidizes them regarding the basic plan however all offer supplementary policies at extra cost on an actuarial basis).
Still does way more than Obamacare.
Pensions were privatized and converted from an entitlement basis to an actuarial basis.
Pensions!
The phone company was privatized decades ago
“The” phone company? Is there only one?
As for job creation, whether or not you get the mitzva would depend on the machloket regarding whether or not mitzvot require intent.
That seems like a stretch to me.
As I pointed out, it is not only the jobs you personally create but also the jobs that are in turn created. Similarly, when you buy items you have a share in creating all of the jobs that are involved. When you save you also have a share as the bank lends money that creates jobs.
So what I’m gathering is that in your view, the greatest way to perform the mitzva of tzedaka is to amass as much wealth as possible??
Avi K,
A rising tide lifts all boats.
Not always.
I generally agree with everything else that you wrote; however, discussing free market economies does not seem to be related to the subject at hand. Israel has universal health care, child care allowances, and other “entitlement” benefits that the US does not, yet, as you pointed out, the overall economy has grown well over the last 10 years. So the notion that social programs and jobs-based solutions to poverty are engaged in a zero sum game doesn’t seem correct.
Also, I’m not sure that the concepts of tzedaka, which are mitzvos for each Jew individually, would apply on the governmental scale, or even in the case of entrepreneurs. For example, if I started a small business that created 6 jobs, would that count as tzedaka for me? Now, if I knew of a poor Jew, and gave him one of those jobs, that would be tzedaka, but just the general job creation?
Avi K,
In addition, because of the distortion of true tzedaka people with connections prefer to throw money at the needy rather than helping them to stand on their own feet. There is a story about a Jew who knew an evyon but did not tell anybody about his plight because he wanted to be able to give him a mattana every Purim.
There is another story about a Jew who had a lot of money and knew a poor person but gave him nothing because he couldn’t get him a job, and Heaven forbid he stoop to give a lesser form of tzedaka then the best.
I can make up good stories too.
Avi K,
Joseph, they are called entitlement programs because the leftists have so defined them.
Originally programs like Social Security and Medicare were called entitlements because the recipients had paid into the system via payroll taxes over the course of their careers, and thus were “entitled” to the benefits. Calling programs like Medicaid and SNAP entitlements can be viewed as derogatory, implying that the recipients feel a false sense of entitlement. So no, I don’t think they are called entitlement programs because leftists have defined them. I think “leftists” would prefer to call them a social safety net.
However, according to Judaism the highest form of tzedaka is to create productive jobs.
To give the poor person a productive job.
Thus the real social heroes are the entrepreneurs.
If entrepreneurship lifts poor people out of poverty through employment, then I agree with you here.