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Health,
If the statistics change, all of a sudden, the Anti-vaxx guys aren’t going to change anything they do!
Their selfishness is going to cause harm to themselves!!!
I disagree. What happens when there is a measles outbreak? You see lines of people outside of high school gymnasiums waiting for vaccinations.
catch yourself,
For the record (this story had actually slipped my mind), when I brought my six year old to the pediatrician for her annual checkup, the doctor asked if she sits in a booster seat in the car (required up to age 8 where we live, believe it or not).
When I responded in the negative, I was given a rather stern talking to by the doctor.
When my friend brought his obese ten year old son for a checkup, the doctor (not the same one) read both the parents and the child the riot act, and gave them, in no uncertain terms, the prognosis for his condition.
Apparently, some physicians do take these issues seriously.
Glad that some physicians do take those issues seriously, since they hit at the top of the list of causes of childhood death and disease in the U.S., but it’s too bad that the doctors in your example responded to their patients so poorly. I’m sure that ten year old feels really good about himself and his doctor now.
Health,
Perhaps he was joking?
Mishlei 26:18-19 for such a doctor.
Rigidity – I agreed to in my previous post.
This isn’t bullying! He’s being factual, even if the guy didn’t like that!
To refuse a child medical care because the parents want to delay a vaccine is not only cutting off the nose to spite the face, it is downright bullying. It was not a statement of fact, but a threat intended to shut the parents up and let the doctor do what he wanted to do right then and there.
Health,
Why would you presume to know what my own experience has been? And that I’d have no knowledge of others’ experiences?”
Do you know the definition of”probably”? If not, ask Feivel.
Yes I do, and my response doesn’t change. Who cares if you made a definitive statement or a probabilistic one? Why would you presume to know what my own experience has been even to state what is likely or unlikely?
What? Don’t you think that I’ve been on the other side of the fence also?!?
Sure, but you brought up your many years of experience in the medical field, not your many years of experience as a patient!
I wasn’t talking about your personal experience!
And I’m talking about elephants and butterflies. Prove me wrong!!!
You obviously didn’t begin to understand my point!
I was pointing out that the removal was for the benefit of the Anti-vaxx nuts!
Who cares if doctors give out free burritos in their offices for the benefits of “anti-vaxx” nuts? That wasn’t your point. You asserted that the “government” weakened vaccines due to pressure from anti-vaccine people. I’m asking a direct question on that statement, and deflections in response won’t work.
DaasYochid,
Especially the part about my kid eating a candy bar not killing your kid,
Your kid is much more likely to squash my kid at the bottom of the slide than my kid is to give yours polio. Or even the unvaccinated kids down the street.
Seriously though, you can do a blood test to check for antibodies if you’re really concerned that your kids don’t have immunity to something.
and the part that even the minority of doctors who don’t have huge egos are also upset at the anti-vaxxers.
I don’t believe I have ever asserted that a majority of doctors are bad apples. That said, the ones I have met who don’t have huge egos patiently and tirelessly explain the benefits of vaccines, actually take a minute or two to sympathize and address the parents’ fears, and are flexible to scheduling vaccines as parents feel comfortable, even recommending which ones they feel are more important and should be done asap.
DaasYochid,
What a poor comparison. If the anti-vaxxers had their way, we’d have massive outbreaks of horrible diseases. It’s no wonder he gets visibly upset.
Thanks for the hyperventilation demonstration 🙂
Yes, there are off-the-wall knee-jerk “anti-vaxxers” who cannot distinguish between small and tiny probabilities (e.g., panicking over tiny risks in vaccines while poo-pooing orders of magnitude higher fatality rates in diseases), or who hold by pharmaceutical conspiracy theories, etc. I imagine that those types existed long before the infamous debunked autism study, and they will continue to exist, just like there will always be some people who refuse to evacuate the coast before a major hurricane.
I really think, however, that a large part of what we are dealing with in the recent increase of unvaccinated children is in big part due to a breakdown in doctor patient trust and communication.
yehudayona,
I saw the title and I thought it another thread about the presidential election.
LOL!
The anivaxxer movement is perhaps the only issue which can get him visibly upset.
Do you doubt his motivation to encourage vaccination?
No, not at all, but I wonder why the vaccine issue causes such hyperventilation among the medical community that many practitioners cannot dispassionately and compassionately explain the benefits of vaccines and the fallacies of the anti-vaccination advocates. Nor can many allow for alternate scheduling (which is what many parents want, yet they get painted as “anti-vaxxers”).
Do doctors get “visibly upset” when they see an obese child in their exam room eating a candy bar? Do they make sure the parents have a properly installed car seat, signal their turns, and don’t run red lights? That they don’t smoke? Do they ever mention keeping the handles of cooking pots turned away from the edge of the stove so little hands cannot grab them? Those are all much bigger health issues for kids right now than the vaccine brouhaha.
Rigidity – I’ll give you, but putdowns and fear mongering, you’ve found common?!?
A friend of mine wanted to have his kid receive all of the vaccinations, but wanted to space them out more than his pediatrician was recommending. The pediatrician declared, “so which deadly disease do you want your child to die from??” Fear mongering. Then the pediatrician stated that my friend’s kid would not be seen by that practice unless they kowtowed to their faster vaccination schedule. Rigidity and bullying. He also insulted my friend’s intelligence (not knowing that he is a statistician with a PHD) – putdowns. And this is hardly the only incident I have heard of from others (not to mention experienced myself, and not just in regards to vaccination).
Doctors are not getchkes.
Health,
You probably had one bad experience & then decided to generalize about medical practitioners.
Just laughed again, thanks. Why would you presume to know what my own experience has been? And that I’d have no knowledge of others’ experiences?
My experiences are from being in the medical field for many years.
Irrelevant. This is about the patient’s experience, not the provider’s.
For the most part, my posts are based on truth, not theory!
Yeah? Tell me more about my own experience and knowledge, despite not knowing who I am.
It’s a fact – that the government removed Thymersil [sic] from a lot of vaccines. WHY????
Thimerosal is a preservative containing a form of mercury that prevents bacteria or fungal growth in medicines for injection. Please explain exactly how its removal “weakens” a vaccine, or how its removal increased public avoidance of vaccination?
feivel,
Diphtheria no. Rare
…
Tetanus yes.
Pertussis depends on current situation.
Usually (at least around here) these three immunizations come together as the DTaP vaccine. Do you request separate Tetanus and/or Pertussis vaccines in order to avoid the Diphtheria one?
Health,
I hate to point out, but you’ve posted previously that you practiced medicine as an eye doc. So what do you know about vaccinations?!?
Are you a physician and immunologist?
DaasYochid,
Okay, so the anti-vax movement comes from lack of trust and comfort with physicians. That doesn’t make it right or any less dangerous.
Never argued that it did. But if the actual goal of the greater medical community is to increase vaccination rates, then perhaps they should do some soul searching and recalibrate their response to people… because it is clearly not working.
Health,
I just got a good laugh. Most of the practitioners that I know aren’t like your portrayal!
Glad you’ve had good experiences for the most part.
If yours’ is, how about going elsewhere?
We did.
The reason that the “anti-vax” movement is so popular, is because our government is liberal. They gave into them – like watering down the vaccines!
Now I just got a good laugh.
1. Opposition to vaccines is coming just as much from the extreme right as it is the extreme left. Some of the Republican presidential candidates even questioned vaccines.
2. You’re trying to refute anti-vaccine conspiracy theories with… conspiracy theories? Good luck with that.
If more physicians responded to their patients with patience, flexibility, compassion, and information rather than bullying, rigidity, putdowns, and fear mongering, then the so-called “anti-vax” movement would hardly be the problem it is today.
I’m guessing it means overseas.
He forgot to mention that he said “Baruch Shem” a bunch of times and then went to a later minyan that doesn’t say Hallel.
🙂
DaasYochid,
It is not inappropriate to say that he caused him to be a vehicle for K”H.
Yes it is.
No it isn’t.
Yes it is.
No it isn’t.
Yes it is.
No it isn’t.
There, I let you have the last word.
No you didn’t.
Oops.
WolfishMusings,
So, why don’t people do this?
Because I never thought about it. But hey, good idea.
Why do people make it harder for their tallis and tefillin to be properly returned to them if lost?
Because I’m a horrible person who doesn’t care about causing others inconvenience, apparently. >:-)
DaasYochid,
I’m not sure why you can’t see the distinction between causing his death and causing that he be a vehicle for kiddush Hashem.
I don’t think my problem is a failure to see that there is a distinction, but rather that I think it is inappropriate to say something like that whether or not there is a distinction.
Joseph,
Avram, is it not obvious the decision of Hashem’s “mind” was that Reb Elechonon should leave this world al kiddush Hashem?
Of course.
How does attributing Hashem’s decision to the Chofetz Chaim’s tefilos detract from his honor?
Because A: I don’t think the Chofetz Chaim would have appreciated such an attribution to his tefillos, and had such a statement been made during his lifetime, it would have caused him pain, and B: Who are we to make such attributions in the first place?
DaasYochid,
Question: Are we being selfish when we bentch someone that he should live ad meah v’esrim? Should we rather wish for him that he [R”L] be killed by terrorists for being Jewish?
Nobody claimed that someone did or should daven for someone to die.
No nobody did, however, the assertion was made that R’ Elchonon died al kiddush Hashem in his 60s because of the tefillos of the Chofetz Chaim. This is the Chofetz Chaim’s beloved talmid we are talking about, and surely the Chofetz Chaim davened for him to live a long life of Torah and sweet goodness, as follows from your answer to my question. If someone approached me and said that someone beloved to me was murdered by terrorists because of my tefillos for myself, I would be hurt tremendously, even though I know dying al kiddush Hashem is a tremendous zechus for the neshama. That’s why nobody in their right mind would ever say something like that to somebody. Do we not owe the holy Chofetz Chaim at least that same regard (even though he has passed away)??
Joseph,
From the beginning I think you have perceived the objection to mik5’s statement as being due to the concept of dying al kiddush Hashem vis a vis R’ Elchonon, and that assumption has largely driven the subsequent discussion. That’s not it for me. My objection is based on regard for the honor of the Chofetz Chaim, and asserting that we know the “mind” of Hashem.
Question: Are we being selfish when we bentch someone that he should live ad meah v’esrim? Should we rather wish for him that he [R”L] be killed by terrorists for being Jewish?
Joseph,
All he indicated was that he was zoche to die al kiddush Hashem.
Not quite. He indicated that Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman died al kiddush Hashem because of tefillos the Chofetz Chaim davened with regard to himself.
DaasYochid,
Would you rather assume that R’ Elchonon died before his time?
Rabbi Elchonon was in his 60s when he was murdered. I also think he personally saw his murder as a kappara for the Jewish people.
It’s not a matter of separating dying al kiddush Hashem from dying; it’s s matter of separating dying al kiddush Hashem from dying shelo al kiddush Hashem.
Is being brutally murdered by sonei Yisroel the only way to die al kiddush Hashem? What about having the opportunity to say vidui and Shema and demonstrate faith and trust in Hashem even under the shadow of death, as opposed to R”L passing suddenly and unexpectedly?
DaasYochid,
Why do you need to read it that way? Why not read it that his tefillos resulted in the z’chus, but that he died exactly when he was anyhow supposed to?
I don’t understand how dying al kiddush Hashem can be separated from dying. Also, I can understand the tefilla that, if/when it is my time, let it be meaningful, but that is different from coming in ex post facto and saying with authority what happened with someone and why.
Joseph,
Thank you for pointing out your response. I don’t think it was “up” for viewing when I wrote mine.
He suggested Reb Elchonon was zoche to die al kiddish Hashem when the time came for him to leave this world; not that Reb Elchonon was zoche to die.
I understand this point in theory, but isn’t it presumptuous for a human being to say whether another man died at his proper time? Or to assert with certitude what was in the Divine calculus when a gadol was murdered? It doesn’t sit right with me. And furthermore, such thoughts can CV”S lead to callousness. When Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel was murdered al kiddush Hashem before the eyes of Rabbi Yishmael the Kohen Gadol (which was actually Rabbi Shimon’s wish, because he did not want to witness the murder of the Kohen Gadol), did Rabbi Yishmael exclaim what a marvelous zechus it was that Rabbi Shimon received, or did he weep?
I have to agree with Sam2 and Syag Lchochma here. The disturbing part of mik5’s first post was not his comments about what Rabbi Akiva and the Chofetz Chaim davened for themselves, but rather his assertion that the Chofetz Chaim’s tefillos resulted in Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s death.
Canola is a contraction of the words “Canada oil” (or “Canada oil low acid”), and comes from a specially bred variety of rapeseed that has low erucic acid. The plant is somewhat related to turnips.
ubiquitin,
sorry, I didnt mean that at all. I’m sorry if it cam out that way.
I meant it where the Lawyer was convinced the judge had it wrong. Much like IF a Rav where to say Chazir was kosher.
Ok, I get it now.
Witnesses in the case where foreing speaking. LEts say Swahili. There was aSwahili speaking indivdual in the group. He was cautioned not to pay attention to the Swahili speaking witnesses therby “translating” for himself. but rather to only listent o the translator’s translation of the witness.
Wow, crazy. I have served as a juror, and I know that sometimes something gets said that is objected to, and the jurors are later asked to disregard it, but to tell a juror that s/he must listen only to a translation seems extreme. I guess the opposing attorney can make sure there’s another Swahili speaker who can catch mistranslations and raise an objection.
RebYidd23,
Babies need at least two people watching them at a time.
Why?
They can’t spend all their time at home.
Carriers, strollers … ?
They don’t ask their caregiver before putting something in their mouths.
Ok?
RebYidd23,
Your baby is doing exactly what a baby should be doing: exploring his/her world, learning about it, building up the baby brain. It’s a good thing! And Little Froggie has the right idea. Dedicate a space in your house where fragile and dangerous items are well out of reach, stairs and doorways are gated off, and put some entertaining stuff in there (including yourself). That way, your baby can explore, and you can enjoy it with him/her rather than spending the whole time stressed out and taking items away.
Golfer,
Thank you for the kind words.
Little Froggie,
I’m not being ‘Dan’ at all. A person has ‘nisyonos’ each different than the other,each person custom made to his/her own standing and circumstance. But case at hand – I know who I was looking at. It was no BT in any shape or form.
You say that you are not judging him, but by declaring that you know “who” you were looking at, you are judging him. And unless you know him personally, there is no way to tell whether he is a BT or not through clothing. I have met people dressed in a chassidish manner, complete with peyos, who just a year or two before were not yet frum. It happens, it really does. Maybe he wasn’t, who knows. The only reason I am responding with this possibility is that in your OP, you stated that you were bothered and shocked.
flatbusher,
Little Froggie: I maintain that regardless of what you saw, unless you know the person, his situation or how he would react, I question whether your desire to rebuke him is appropriate.
I think you could question whether actually rebuking him would have been appropriate or not, but how could you question Little Froggie’s desire to do so in the absence of action?
Now, you said what he was watching was obviously assur or something to that effect. Well, how would you know that unless you too were looking at it?
Have you ever been on an airplane?
ubiquitin,
Avram, im sorry Im not sure what we are disagreeing about.
An outline of how I perceived our conversation.
1. In your OP, you implied that to subsume one’s opinion in favor of an authority’s was wrong. This might not be an accurate interpretation of your position – see below.
2. I replied that, in matters of Jewish law, sometimes this can be a virtue.
3. You seemed to disagree with that, and argued that such cases were rare. Thus Jewish law encourages disagreement with judges/beis din/rabbis if you feel your interpretation of the law is better.
4. I replied again, stating my opinion that it was the cases where disagreement with judges/beis din/rabbis is good are rare.
5. You responded to this with examples that would be very rare in Orthodox society, which I feel does not contradict my response in number 4.
In Yisdishkeit if you know that a Rav is making a mistake it is assur to follow his wrong psak (see maseches Horiyos).
This might be why there is confusion as to what the disagreement is. When you said – For example they asked a lawyer in my group,” if you disagreed with a judge’s interpretation of the law would you put aside your own interpretation?” The lawyer said yes – I didn’t see this as a case where the judge was fundamentally wrong because he didn’t have all of the facts/was biased/was stupid, etc. But a case where there are two valid arguments and the judge and lawyer take opposite sides of the issue.
Lehavdil, In the legal system if a law is wrong or you believe a judge is interpreting it incorrectly I maintain you shouldnt follow.
As you stated, a “wrong” law wouldn’t exist within halacha. As far as interpret incorrectly; that word didn’t appear in the judge’s question to the lawyer. What would your response be if “incorrect” were replaced with “different”?
Little Froggie,
You seemed to feel strongly about this due to the contradiction in what you saw – someone dressed in a very frum manner doing something that was decidedly not frum. Of the responses in this thread that I read, I think gavra at work’s is the most helpful: that you may have misinterpreted the man you were seeing. He listed some examples (e.g., “Orthoprax”), but I don’t think those are highly likely. Here’s what I think – you saw an “almost” BT.
Speaking as a BT, when one becomes frum, it is not a “poof” overnight thing. It takes time to learn halachos and hashkafos. I started wearing a kippa before I had kashrus completely figured out, and actually received some tochacha one day from an OTD guy who was working in a non-kosher restaurant I ate in. Even though he was OTD, he had the same reaction to the contradictory image that Little Froggie did. I ended up having a nice long conversation with him, and looking back, I process the incident as one that helped propel me towards full observance of kashrus. I wonder if it had any effect on him as well.
ubiquitin,
so if My Rav says Chazir is Kosher I can eat it?
No. And that would be an example of a limited instance where the point is not true. And that rabbi would likely be out of a job by the end of the day.
If he says Johns’ cakes are kosher not knowing that they contain lard (but I know) can I eat it?
No. And that would be another example of a limited instance where the point is not true. And that rabbi also would likely be out of a job by the end of the day.
How do these extreme and thus limited examples contradict what I wrote? Or do rabbis in your community routinely tell people that pork is kosher and rule that foods are kosher without first knowing their ingredients?
147,
Grape Juice is nothing short of a fruit juice full of acid, but alcohol in wine kills the acid.
Huh? The pH of wine is not much different from grape juice; both are acidic.
ubiquitin,
Though I grant there are limited instances where your point is true.
??? ???? ????????? ?????? ???????? ????? ???????????? ?????? ???????? ???? ????????? ??? ?????? ??? ???????? ?????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????????
I think the “limited instances” are where the point is not true.
I was on the fence It was partly becasue they were all so emphatic and the Judge was nodding so approvingly that I was concerned disagreeing without having ample time to explain myself, might be a chilul Hashem. And It wasnt really my platform to take the time I needed. I had already made my opinion known by that time after all.
But maybe I should have
That is how groupthink works.
homer,
You miss my point.
What makes you think I missed it?
I used to take politics seriously when I actually thought it was supposed to make sense, or that I could make a difference.
So essentially you had an incorrect idea of what politics and the electoral process was supposed to be like. And when you realized that it wasn’t the way you expected or wanted it to be, instead of figuring it out and adjusting your expectations, you became cynical? 🙂 🙂 🙂
See my bit on the American electorate proving what doofuses they are time and again, So picking this guy or that candidate
The framers of the Constitution already had that figured out 227 years ago, which is why the “doofuses” don’t directly pick this guy or that candidate for president.
that you think will be the GUY, and that THIS TIME will be different, is a mistake I have made to many times in the past.
I’m sorry you have been disappointed so many times. I haven’t thought of any candidates like that since high school. They’re human beings, and they’re running for president, so how sane can they really be?
They are all the same!!
If you really believed that, you wouldn’t almost exclusively bash Democrats.
ubiquitin,
A recurring theme was would you follow orders even if you disagreed. For example they asked a lawyer in my group,” if you disagreed with a judge’s interpretation of the law would you put aside your own interpretation?” The lawyer said yes
In matters of Jewish law this can be a virtue, e.g., the exchange between Rabban Gamliel (the Nasi) and R’ Yehoshua over the proper date of Yom Kippur in the Mishna (2nd chapter of Rosh Hashana I think). For civil law, I don’t see how it’s a virtue.
One juror spoke up and said he is a school teacher and when children ask “why?” he says becasue those are the rules. The judge nodded approvingly and asked if anybody disagreed. I wanted to yell Of course I do, we arent children! We are freethinking individuals!
Why didn’t you say (or yell) that? Other people in your panel may have felt the same way you did, but perhaps nobody wanted to rock the boat. That’s part of how groupthink works.
Is groupthink like this a virtue?
No.
Do the lawyers no this isnt the wa normal grown ups work, and they are just looking for sheep whose minds they can meld? Or am I missing something?
A grownup may not work that way individually, but I think they do know that that’s how groups of people work, and so they utilize groupthink to help orchestrate the outcomes they desire. Why pose questions to a panel of potential jurors and challenge them to disagree with each other instead of interviewing each jury candidate separately?
zahavasdad,
The Hotels could easily build a succah, many already have outdoor gazeebos and could turn them into succahs.
Yes they could, but why would people put so much money into spending Sukkos in a crowded hotel sukkah? Spending Pesach in a hotel makes more sense. I agree with DaasYochid’s assessment as to the reasons. The challenge of cleaning for Pesach is one factor among many others.
Just for the record, I am not going to a hotel for Pesach and have never gone to a hotel for Pesach
Same here.
zahavasdad,
While some people do go away for Succahs, its not as a massive scale as Pesach. its because Peseach has become too hard to make at home for many
I actually think more people would spend Succos at hotels too if it weren’t for one teeny little detail: you have to eat in a sukkah on Sukkos.
lesschumras,
Nechumah, “most” people make things like potato starch by hand? Maybe in your circle of friends but I know of nobody who does. Who has the time?
Nechomah wrote, “I have a friend who makes her own potato starch.”
How did “a friend” turn into “most” people?
Shopping613,
I feel like EVERYONE just blows it up!!! Like seriously, each kid cleans his own room, and you guys pick up, sweep, mop, and wipe down the furniture in the living room and then do the kitchen…
What is the rest of the world doing that takes 4 weeks? I have NO IDEA!
They are cleaning rooms, picking up, sweeping, mopping, wiping down the furniture in the living room and then doing the kitchen… 🙂 It’s wonderful that your family can do all of that in one week, but for my family, to try and complete those tasks in the span of one week would be extremely stressful. Better 3-4 weeks of methodical work than one week of panic.
And pesach food? Really. I mean I guess it’s hard cuz its like 2 yuntivs but you seriously don’t need 20 dishes. Meat, fish, lots of salads, dairy.
We keep things simple as you describe, but it is still a lot to cook!
homer,
I dont mean to insult anybody. Politics is not something to insult someone over!!!
Ok, I agree, and thank you for clarifying. I guess it’s hard to decipher intent through anonymous writing.
Especially when people take politics so seriously. I to used to take politics very seriously.
I take it seriously, but I favor centrists/pragmatists, and unfortunately there are very few of those left it seems.
Living in MD you also are stuck in the mud when it comes to politics.
What about Larry Hogan?
But keep your chin up and DAVEN.
Always good advice. Thanks.
It’s possible that the hunger is not related to the coffee per se, but the fact that it’s morning, you haven’t eaten anything overnight, and your body is now wide awake and needing fuel for the day. As far as putting on weight, a big breakfast is much less of an issue than a big dinner, since the breakfast food will go towards energy during the day, but dinner digests while you are sleeping. In fact, a big breakfast with complex carbs (which break down slowly and release their energy slowly over a long period of time) and protein may help curb the potential to overeat later in the day.
homer,
Ctlawyer thats a laugh. Earn it? when has a politician ever done anything to earn anything, let alone your vote?
If more people thought like CTLAWYER than like you, regardless of party affiliation, we’d probably have a much better selection of candidates. I do not see how knee jerk cynicism does anything helpful. Nor do random smiley faces and cheap insults.
Just look at who our esteemed senator from MN is. Just to give you a current example of the intelligence of the American electorate.
Do you have something against Amy Klobuchar?
flatbusher,
A lot of people shuckle during the davening, but considering one is standing before Hashem, isn’t it disrespectful to stand other than straight as one would before a human leader?
While one can draw lessons about proper service to Hashem through the way in which human leaders are respected, the analogy can only really go so far, since Hashem is not a human. Even among humans, there are many different ways to show respect. In the U.S., one stands when the president stands, and a proper greeting is to shake his hand. Soldiers will salute him, and not drop their hands until he salutes back. In Japan, it’s respectful to bow at the waist. In some cultures, kissing is considered respectful, but it would be awkward for me to bow in front of or kiss the U.S. president.
So, many Jews throughout the world shuckle when they daven to Hashem. It’s culturally accepted. Why would this inherently be disrespectful to Hashem?
Any thoughts about the origin of shuckling and what is it exactly supposed to accomplish?
I’ve heard similar things to mik5’s first response to you. For me, shuckling sometimes helps with concentration, and it provides a sort of rhythm to the words.