Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
mw13,
Even if aIY did indeed get this psak from R’ Belsky (nothing personal, aIY – I just take everything I read on an anonymous internet forum with a grain of salt), it should be clear that this was an exception to R’ Belsky’s normal psak on the issue.
1. We don’t know what anIsraeliYid’s psak was, so there’s no way to comment one way or the other whether it was in accordance with Rav Belsky’s “normal” psak or not. In fairness to your assumption, anIsraeliYid does seem to be making a strongly implied juxtaposition, but he softens it with a parenthetical statement.
3. I agree 100% with anIsraeliYid that a personal psak should not be publicized, whether it is strict or lenient, and I feel uncomfortable with the entire exchange between him and Joseph.
charliehall,
I can’t see why this should be an issue.
Why what should be an issue?
I think The Wolf’s wife’s name is Eees, not Ees. Big difference.
gavra_at_work,
Better off to not start with it.
So it’s better to sacrifice the souls we have before us right now because of a potential down-the-road risk to future potential souls?
Joseph,
That comparison is off. The reasoning of the proponents of the idea I mentioned, as I understand it, is because in case of divorce of a non-religious couple they will likely not obtain a halachic get, thus causing much greater problems down the line.
If you tell a non-religious woman that tonight is Shabbos and to light, and she lights, then she knows that it is Shabbos. And any subsequent potential melachos done would carry a more serious penalty than if she did not remember it was Shabbos in the first place.
Joseph,
DY: I’ve heard some suggest that it is better for non-religious couples to not have a valid kiddushin. (I’m not suggesting this is a correct opinion.)
Should we then refrain, if given the opportunity, from helping a non-religious woman light Shabbos candles, because she might not keep the rest of Shabbos?
popa_bar_abba,
Also, who even cares. If she’ll never go again, why is there such an inyan do make her go before the wedding?
Are mitzvos so unimportant in your eyes that performing one even once is nothing to care about?
mw13,
Due to your posting on this thread, the probability that Popa’s Law is stupid has increased. Oops, this post is having the same effect.
Y.W. Editor,
How can I become a Mod?
I’ve heard that if one’s kids have two playdates with Joseph’s kids and still get invited back, he instantly becomes a Mod. Others say just one playdate with a re-invite.
nishtdayngesheft,
“Harambe died to save a child’s life.”
That is an inane comment. The Gorilla was killed because it was a threat to the child’s life.
RebYidd23 is a syntactic ambiguity troll, and you fell for it 🙂 Replace “died” with “was shot” to see the alternate meaning more clearly.
frumnotyeshivish,
One side follows what’s observed by the best experts to be best for public health while keeping the individual interests as an exceptionally high priority. The other side thinks they know better that the experts.
Uh huh, I see. Which side are you on? I can’t tell because of how balanced and fair your descriptions were. 🙂
You seem to be “poseach al shnei se’ifim.” From the vaccination conversations I’ve had with people, your stance seem uncommon.
I don’t think my stance is uncommon, but it seems that typically the louder the voice, the less nuanced the viewpoint.
newbee,
As for the millions of people throughout the world who were outraged by this AND his patients who willingly chose not to use him as a dentist, well I guess they are too dumb to see how smart you are.
I never said or implied that anyone upset by the killing of the lion is dumb. And on the contrary, if I found out that my dentist had a cruel streak, I’d probably seek another dentist myself.
My comments have primarily been directed at the venting of cruelty under the guise of protesting cruelty. Examples: one of the heads of PETA declared that the dentist should be hanged. The dentist’s children have received death threats. And I’ve commented on the extreme extent of the reaction – it seems rather disproportionate. And finally, I’ve commented when I perceived there to be mischaracterizations of what actually occurred, e.g., you claimed multiple times that the dentist tortured the lion for a week. Not once have I commented on intelligence, mine or anyone else’s.
Totally agree with Joseph here. Unless there’s a service charge stated up front (such as when the heating/cooling company charges $70 just to come to your house to look at the A/C), the general assumption is that estimates are a proposal for the cost of work, and are free.
Joseph,
Giving animals a name is a sick humanization of animals.
I think giving animals names is fine, but they should be obviously animal names as opposed to human names. For example, if I had a goat, I’d name it Lawnmower, or GrassBiter, or Hooves. My cat would be Paws, or Whiskers, or MouseDevourer. My dog would be named HydrantDisrespector, or StickCatcher.
Let animals be animals and treated like animals. Let humans be humans and treated humanely.
Agreed 100%. As the hysterical reactions to the gorilla and lion demonstrate, those who seek to treat animals like people run the risk of treating people like animals.
It’s the vaccine’s delivery vehicle that causes bleeding, not the vaccine. If the vaccine itself caused bleeding, that would be a big concern.
newbee,
I’m surprised that you called what the dentist did wrong and cruel and then say people cant point out that its wrong and cruel.
I certainly would not call the dentist’s experience as simply people pointing out that it’s wrong and cruel.
I will say publicly condemned instead of shamed, if that makes you feel better.
Then you would be wrong, because what happened to the dentist was far more than public condemnation of his behavior.
Behaviors that are bad and cruel (as YOU said they were) and lead to the further endangerment of species SHOULD be publicly condemned.
I agree, except that was not what happened to the dentist. And you’re conflating species conservation with animal cruelty – two very separate issues. Would you be less “outraged” if he had hunted a basset hound?
newbee,
Nothing wrong with shaming
Yes there is, especially when it explodes to a completely hysterical, disproportionate global scale. When it becomes not even about what the dentist did per se, but about others asserting their chest-thumping moral superiority and venting their own cruel impulses. And when it leads to destruction of property and outright harassment. I’m surprised that you get so bothered by what the dentist did, but condone shaming, which is one of the cruelest human practices, and is the root of crimes such as honor killings, witch burnings, and causes suicides.
One more question. You’ve stated or implied several times in this thread that Cecil was “tortured for a week”, like the dentist put him on the rack or something to make him talk. Yet in reality the lion was hit with an arrow, disappeared into the forest, and was found and shot 2 days later. Cruel? Yes. Torture for a week? No. Why the mischaracterization?
newbee,
Lions practice infanticide. If a challenging male succeeds in ousting or killing the head of a pride (e.g., by scratching, biting and wounding – oh the torture of it all!), subsequently he usually will kill the original male’s innocent cubs in a cold blooded, inhumane manner. Does this outrage you?
newbee,
Thank you. I don’t get why some people are against being outraged over animal cruelty.
I agree that what the dentist did was wrong and cruel. What I am against, however, is:
1. The use of “outrage” as a cover by some to exhibit their own cruelty – through social media shaming, death threats, and harassment.
2. The equation or even elevation of animal life over human life.
Health,
You’re not really answering the question. Hib is recommended for children under 5 years old, so your answer regarding 15 months of age makes no sense. Hib vaccines yield a weaker and shorter lasting immune response in infants than they do older children. That is the reason that multiple doses are needed in infancy and a final booster at ~15 months is given. And that is also why no further subsequent doses are needed after 15 months, even if the child didn’t receive the infant series. The immune response is more robust.
Joseph,
the reality is the dentist was within the law in his African hunting endeavor
True, but I think the organizers of his hunt were ultimately charged with criminal acts.
newbee,
I think you and I are on the same page with regards to the incident with the gorilla and young child at the zoo. As far as the dentist and the lion, I think that what the dentist did was wrong and was a crime, so some sort of penalty, e.g., fines, revocation of hunting license, etc. would be appropriate. What seems to have prompted this thread, however, was the absolutely insane reaction to the lion story, and now the child and gorilla story. What are your thoughts on that? Does the dentist deserve death threats and hanging? Should the child’s mother be tarred and feathered?
adocs,
I would really appreciate an answer to my question. What conspiracy theory in the vaccine thread specifically prompted this OP?
zahavasdad,
It was a Labruit meal,
Ok, so maybe it sailed through because it was a brand-name meal in a sealed container. When we’ve brought through food in Tupperware containers, we’ve been pulled aside and the containers opened and inspected. Still, a cramped airplane cabin at 38,000ft is quite different from an Amtrak sleeper/lounge/dining car.
zahavasdad,
I was once going to use one on a plane and the flight attendent stopped me from using it
A plane is a completely different animal from an Amtrak train. I’m surprised (and a little horrified) that your self-heating bag made it through the TSA security checkpoint with no problems. The trains on the other hand do not have a security checkpoint, and the range of activities permitted on a train is much larger than on a plane. I’d still ask the attendant in the train car first before using the self-heating MRE bag, but I’d be surprised based on my experience if the answer wasn’t “sure, go right ahead.”
frumnotyeshivish,
What defines the “sides” in your vaccine football game? What “side” do you consider me to be on?
Health,
The reason you don’t need so many shots when the kid is older, “fewer boosters are needed if doses occur when the child is older” is simply because Hemophilus bacteria is part of the normal flora!
So are strep and staph bacteria. What difference does that make?
zahavasdad,
Do NOT bring MRE’s onto the trains without asking. It might set off smoke alams or scare other passengers especially with the smoke
I agree that it’s a good idea to ask first, but I don’t think that self-heating MREs produce any smoke. They use a chemical reaction that heats the food to not much more than 100 degrees F. The kettle is much more problematic due to the required voltage and temperatures (but they don’t produce smoke either).
newbee,
Im pretty sure if someone had tortured to death a child for a week, and took a photo with its corpse there would have been outrage as well.
If you are attempting this as a comparison to the killing of Cecil the lion, well, that is just sick. Not to mention inaccurate.
RebYidd23,
Don’t call him a monkey! Respect his memory.
His memory? This seems as silly to me as the “mourners” bemoaning how the gorilla had just “celebrated” his 17th birthday. Really? He celebrated? I doubt the gorilla knew or cared that it was his birthday. So-called animal lovers anthropomorphize animals to absurd extents. And sometimes it is even harmful to animals. For example, most dog lovers hug their dogs, but most dogs do not like to be hugged, and exhibit non-verbal signs of stress. Hugging is a human way to show love, not a dog way. A more extreme example is the people who “rescued” a baby bison in 50-degree weather because “it was cold”, and the bison subsequently had to be put down because its herd rejected him.
Though the right decision was made, it is still sad that the zoo lost its gorilla.
Agreed.
My only experience is with the “Auto Train”, a long distance nonstop Amtrak route between northern Virginia (near DC) and central FL (near Orlando) where you can load your vehicles and bring them too. Kosher food was available for dinner in both the sleeper passengers’ dining car and the coach passengers’ dining car. The meals were frozen double-wrapped chicken and rice airline style meals heated in an oven before serving. Breakfast was also served in the dining cars the next morning, and consisted of Kellogs cereals (served with non-CY milk), fresh whole fruit, and orange juice. There were muffins that were not kosher, and the servers (seeing that we were frum) offered us heated bagels that came from a package bearing an OU, but since they were not in a sealed container (nor double wrapped when heated), we politely declined them. I would certainly recommend packing extra snacks, or even your own meal if you dislike plastic wrapped frozen dinners.
Make sure to let Amtrak know that you need kosher meals for your trip, so they can have them ready for you.
BTW – the train cars I traveled in had outlets, but not sure if they had enough juice to operate a kettle. I’d doubt that would even be allowed. It might be better to bring a small cooler with sandwiches.
Health,
Like I a fool, I looked at the site.
You obviously did not look at it very closely.
You obviously misunderstood what they’re saying!
Nope.
The whole reason why you give boosters is because immunity wanes! You just don’t have to start all over again because you still have some immunity left.
I gave Hib (Haemophilus influenzae type b – row 4 of the table) as an example. Look at the fourth row of the table. The table displays the minimum age for dosing (column 2), and then the minimum spacing between doses (rest of the columns, depending on how many doses of each vaccine are given). If you look at row 4, column 3, it clearly states that if the first dose of the Hib vaccine is given after the baby is 15 months old, no further doses are needed. If the first dose was given between 12 and 14 months, you wait 8 weeks and then only one more dose is needed. If you go by the CDC schedule, the baby gets 4 Hib shots (3 before the first birthday, and then a final one after a year). So delaying Hib does result in fewer boosters.
Btw, how did you become such a know-it-all?!?
This is not rocket science.
Health,
But at least admit your post is false: “but if you spread them out enough you miss out on a couple of boosters and gain the same immunity.”
Not false.
Google “CDC Catch-up Immunization Schedule” and go to the first search result. For several immunizations (e.g., Hib), fewer boosters are needed if doses occur when the child is older.
adocs,
What conspiracy theory in the vaccine thread prompted your OP?
Health,
He handled what he thought was good for the child and what was good for his business!
He obviously doesn’t need your family’s business.
Another doctor in the practice actually stepped in and had a consult with us and said he would be fine with us spacing out the vaccinations more. Since there’s no guarantee in a group practice which doctor you’d see during a sick visit, however, we took our business elsewhere. And we’re happy with our new practice just like Gamanit.
Health,
And what would the Baker do with the recipe?
He’d put it in the suggestion box, aka the garbage!
He’d guard it like jewels and send thank you notes weekly.
you have the option of going elsewhere!
Why on Earth are you still repeating that point to me? Of course I do, and I already did. And I can also say that the previous doc handled things stupidly.
feivel,
This is the entire crux of the matter as far as I’m concerned.
The typical physicians view of his role vs the patients view of his role.
Absolutely. When the cards are down, it’s less about public safety and more about perceived slights of honor.
Health,
Would you go into a bakery and tell the Baker – that you have a better recipe than his Challah & they should change to yours’?
No that’s an unrealistic analogy. I wouldn’t give a bakery my wife’s recipe, but I might sell it to them. At a restaurant, however, I very well would ask for sauce on the side, substitute this side for that, and decline the free sodas that comes with my kids’ meals.
So how come the Anti -vaxxers think that they have the right to tell medical professionals what to do?!?
Wow, what a mindset. If I tell my doctor that I want to space out vaccinations, I am not overstepping any boundary whatsoever. I’m not telling the doctor what to do, the doctor is telling me what he thinks I should do, and I am responding to him. I am making decisions about my own family. And that is not only my right, it is my obligation.
How far do you take this deification of medical professionals? If I see a doctor about to make a medical mistake (wrong medication, about to saw off the wrong arm, whatever), do you think I should remain quiet, because I have no right to tell medical professionals what to do?!? Ridiculous.
If you don’t like what your doctor is doing – go somewhere else!
Good advice.
Joseph,
Avram, what would a middle ground constitute and how might someone taking a middle ground on this issue act on that position vis-a-vis vaccinating his children?
The extremes are narrow, but the middle is broad. And different families have different situations, needs, and concerns. For example, in the situation I described above about the infant having a scary reaction after vaccines – the doctor should discuss what happened with the parents in a compassionate and sympathetic way (and actually report the reaction), and make recommendations that take the parents’ concerns into consideration and are based on the actual risk/benefit ratio for that family at that time, not scare tactics. Better for the vaccinations to be spread out, or even one or two declined, than to demand the parents stick to the schedule and threaten to deny them medical care, which will potentially result in the kid not getting any more vaccinations (or checkups).
Some thought can go into this. If parents want to space out vaccinations and their child is in daycare, a doctor can recommend that it is a good idea to not delay vaccinations such as Hep-B and Pertussis. If the baby is at home all of the time, maybe those vaccinations can be done after the first birthday. Etc. etc.
feivel,
I see you weren’t disputing that point at all anyway. You just wanted health to explain how removing thimerosal weakened vaccines.
Thanks, I’m glad that you understand where I was coming from. I reread the posts too, and now I want a burrito.
catch yourself,
I don’t remember anyone asserting that vaccines were the sole, or even greatest, factor in all disease reduction and prevention.
I didn’t think that was ZD’s intention, either.
I believe it was asserted via zahavasdad’s rhetorical question. Otherwise, his post makes no sense in context.
Please don’t get off topic now with a specious discussion of statistics. For purposes of this discussion, it doesn’t really matter if a disease killed ten percent or fifty percent of children globally before a vaccine was developed.
I agree, it doesn’t matter in terms of whether the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks. In fact, the reality of 150 years ago really doesn’t factor into that calculus either. What matters to me is the promulgation of misinformation. If one wants to be on the side of science and reason, then he should make sure his statements and arguments are factual and correct.
This is a classic smoke-and-mirrors debate tactic.
More than smoke and mirrors, such mistakes provoke an argument to logic fallacy in response, where “anti-vaxxers” latch onto misinformation such as this and then claim that the conclusions of “pro-vaxxers” are also erroneous. If you read my posts, I am not trying to do that. In fact, my intention is the opposite – to correct such errors so that they are not used to muddy the conversation.
The main discussion is about whether the possible risks of vaccines outweigh the benefits, not about whether it was vaccines or improved hygiene which proved more beneficial overall.
The problem is, “pro-vaxxers” over-inflate the benefits (and risks of inaction), while “anti-vaxxers” over-inflate the risks and downplay the dangers of disease. This leads to a lack of a middle ground and flexibility.
zahavasdad,
200-300 years ago people’s,lifespans were much shorter. Many children didnt even live to adulthood.
Please explain how childhood diseases which once killed over 1/2 of children have become basically a non-event today
1. Better sanitation, indoor plumbing, safer water and food supplies reduced cholera, dysentery, food poisoning, and other similar diseases.
2. Antibiotics, which saves children from diseases such as scarlet fever, pneumonia, etc.
3. Better nutrition.
4. Expert medical care to treat injuries.
5. Vaccines
I’m not intending to downplay vaccines here, because they are an important cog in the wheel of disease prevention, but they were not the number 1 factor in reducing death rates, and trying to make that argument is furthering misinformation.
DaasYochid,
Your new doctor is a lousy doctor. If (s)he was any good, she’d have too many patients to have time to answer all the patients’ questions.
lol. The best part of this thread is the ironies.
Health,
That wasn’t your point. You asserted that the “government” weakened vaccines due to pressure from anti-vaccine people. I’m asking a direct question on that statement, and deflections in response won’t work”
And I responded to that! Why did the government remove Thymersal from vaccines? To please the anti-vaxx nuts. I wasn’t trying to prove that the government weakened the vaccines. This is common knowledge, whether you know it or Not!
No you did not. You have to explain how the removal of Thimerosal weakens vaccines. That is the off-the-wall part of your assertion. If the drug companies and government agreed to remove a preservative from vaccines that was concerning people, then good for them!
DaasYochid,
Avram, welcome to a world in which most physicians couldn’t make a living if they spent the amount of time with each patient that’s really needed.
Understood, though it doesn’t excuse a doctor treating a patient badly. And unfortunately, the world you are welcoming me to is also a world where trust in doctors is eroding and people use the Web as a source of information.
DaasYochid,
I’m glad they have the time to do that instead of treating patients. My pediatrician doesn’t. Maybe he does waste his time on this nonsense anyhow, at the expense of my kids or other patients; I don’t know.
Or maybe your pediatrician is over-scheduling patients to the point of shortchanging them. Nobody wants to be the one waiting for over an hour past the appointment time in the biologically hazardous waiting room, but if a practice is not budgeting at minimum 10 to 15 minutes of Q&A for each patient, then they are not doing their jobs well. Or, at the very least, they can say, “this is an extremely important issue that we should discuss further. Unfortunately, we are overbooked today, so I cannot take the time needed to thoroughly respond to all of your questions in a way that I think would be most helpful. Let’s schedule a consult in a week or two…” Patient leaves happy, doc gets two fees from one patient.
feivel,
I think you meant; “studies that did not find any significant side effects of vaccines.”
Not studies that prove vaccines are safe. No such studies exist.
That would be an impossible requirement. What is “safe”?
Health,
S/o posted previously that PCP’s aren’t interested in discussing vaccines, they already made up their minds.
This is even more true with the Anti – vaxxers!
Ok, so while the doctors are turned away on one side with their arms folded and saying harumph, and the “anti-vaxxers” are on the other side saying harumph, there have been increasing gaps in vaccination in the middle. What’s more important, saying harumph, or trying to change things?
ubiquitin,
you missed a few steps first the plumber says…
I think you are a good example of a doctor doing his job well. Please mentor your colleagues 🙂
As I stated above, there will always be conspiracy theorists who remain unconvinced even in the face of clearly explained facts. I think they are the minority of people going into doctors offices and asking questions about vaccines. There is a cottage industry of alternative medicine businesses they can patronize and work with like-minded people.
Rather, pediatricians are by and large addressing parents who care deeply for their children and honestly want to do what is best for them. Whether there is an emotional fear (it’s never easy to hold your kid while a stranger sticks them with a needle full of cold, uncomfortable stuff that makes them cry, then swell and sometimes get a fever, and sometimes taking action with a small risk is scarier than taking no action with a small risk. etc.), a concern (hey, my kid screamed non-stop for two hours after getting 5 vaccines at the last visit, and one of the injection sites swelled up huge. I’m worried he might have had a reaction to one of the vaccines, but he got so many, there’s no way to tell which one it was), or even misinformation (I read on the Internet that…), parents deserve to be treated with kindness, compassion, patience, and included as a part of their child’s care. Not seen as an enemy to be vanquished.