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CTLAWYER,
“Just feed the kids fleischiges every day for lunch and supper (excluding the three weeks).”
That’s not necessarily a cheaper or healthy solution.
HolyMoe,
“I keep a tub of ice cream in the freezer Every time the ice cream truck comes I take it out and scoop a portion into a cone
This costs me 20 to 30 cents instead of $4 and my kids are happy”This solves the expense issue, but you’re allowing external factors to control your decisions of when to give your kids treats. If two ice cream trucks go down your street daily, do your kids get two ice cream cones a day??
ujm,
“”There’s an old concept of a parent telling a child “no”.”
I don’t think this is the problem @fakenews described. Kids are kids. If you occasionally let them get treats from an ice cream truck, they will ask or clamor every time they hear the music. So the issue is not with saying no, but with feeling burdened by having to repeatedly say no due to external stimuli. The solution (other than rolling burning tires onto your street to keep the trucks out), simply put but harder to implement, is to find a way to manage their expectations. Some of the respondents here had some good ideas.
ubiquitin,
“I have the same problem with local Pizza store, its open from morning till night every day (not Shabbos)”
Unless the pizza store rolls down your street every day playing music, this is not an equivalent example.
DaMoshe,
“It means the government that exists in Israel”
Right, but what does that mean in practice? Most chareidim do work with the Israeli government, but I get the sense that you are not happy with that level of participation.
DaMoshe,
“The Religious Zionism of today still yearns for the geulah, but also tries to work within the system that exists”
What does working “within the system that exists” mean, practically?
n0mesorah,
“Don’t undersell Chabad! They inspire many non Jews to yearn for Moshiach as well.”
So did Paul… Given how hostile Chabad can be towards other streams of frum Judaism, the fact that they attract a lot of non-Jewish attention is actually kind of scary to me.
“Your title claims that they inspire all Jews. Then you posted that no other Jews yearn like they do. Which sounds like Chabad is failing at their primary task.”
The OP intended to inflame, not inform. Therefore making sense was not the top priority.
Amil Zola,
“In some parts of the American South many folks post the 10Cs on their front lawns.”
In what parts of the South? I’ve seen a lot of the South and don’t believe I’ve ever seen the 10 commandments posted in a private front lawn.
huju,
“Would that be good for the Jews?”
No, a strong protection of the First Amendment is extremely important for American Jewry. Unfortunately both major political parties have been amping up to destroy it.
DaMoshe,
“I am a Zionist, but that doesn’t mean I support the government of the State. I wish the State was run by a religious government, in accordance with halacha.”
What are the practical ramifications of this position, if any?
“When the State was founded, they could have participated, and set up the groundwork for the laws to be based on halacha, but many refused, partially because of the urging from Satmar.”
This is historical whitewashing. Do you really think the militantly secular Zionists, who viewed religion as primitive and chareidim as parasites would have entertained the notion of a “halachic” state?
“R’ Yoilish HAD to continue to oppose Zionism because of his actions during the Holocaust.”
I guess the former Satmar Rav is your version of the George Soros puppet master?
“a place where the other nations can’t persecute us for being Jewish”
We can practically still hear the echo of the red alert sirens and explosions over Israel, and Hamas is openly threatening to attack the Jerusalem day parade. The last time I was in Israel, I saw swastikas drawn on walls on Mt. Scopus. The medina certainly has not ended the persecution.
“Where the government won’t torture and kill us for practicing our faith.”
Tel Aviv recently forbade religious Zionists from setting up a prayer service on Yom Haatzmaut because there was to be a mechitza.
“When R’ Akiva saw a fox on the Har haBayis, he laughed, because one nevuah coming true meant the others would as well.”
Har Habayis is still desolate, R”L.
“I can separate the government from the State itself. You seem unable to do so.”
I’m not clear on what this means, similar to my first question.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“I’m relatively confident that chillul Shabbos would be worse than something for which there is no real halachic problem. I’m not talking about the actual protesters, just people who purchase Angel’s products.”
Ah, ok, I think we’re focusing on two completely different things. I agree that there’s no halachic problem with buying Angel’s breads (assuming one’s morah d’asra didn’t explicitly ban it for the kehilla), and I certainly wasn’t referring to the customers when talking about chutzpa and gaiva.
The OP juxtaposed the chareidi community’s response to two things: electricity generated on Shabbos in E”Y, which the Chazon Ish assered but many are lenient or don’t hold by it, and Angel’s bakery, which the tzibbur is boycotting en masse and loudly. My response is that with Angel’s, people are standing up for kavod of the Torah, the gadol whose house was picketed, and the chareidi community. In contrast, while causing chillul Shabbos which is a serious issue and needs to be addressed, the power companies are not doing it davka to spite Hashem and attack those who cling to His Torah.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“Chillul shabbos is still worse”
I wasn’t intending to rank the two issues – just to explain that the motives behind them were different, hence the different responses. But while on the subject, yes the chillul Shabbos is more of a halachic problem for us, but I’m not sure which would be “worse” in the eyes of Hashem. A person who realizes his sins can do teshuva, but chutzpa and gaiva place a block between people and Hashem.
DaMoshe,
“Aveirah, your hatred is showing again”
There’s irony in your complaining about AviraDeArah’s “hatred” when you consistently twist his username to attack him personally. Has he personally attacked you?
“These landing sites have been observed via telescopes and lunar landers.”
I meant orbiters.
Someday,
I know others have already provided answers, but here’s some additional thoughts:
“1) The flag is waving in the wind. There is no wind on in the moon.”
It didn’t wave in “wind”. It had a pole along the top to hold it out, and the bottom was free. It moved when Armstrong and Aldrin were moving it around. This is pretty clear to see in the videos. There’s a really neat video from the Apollo 15 mission where David Scott dropped a hammer and a feather simultaneously, and the fell to the ground at the same rate.
“2) Any slight degree of deviation of target in 238,900 miles, would result in missing the moon by hundreds of miles. There was no such powerful computing power in 1969 to do that. A cell phone today has much more computing power than a computer the size of a large building had in 1969.”
And the Romans built massive aqueducts and the Egyptians built the pyramids without computers at all. Yes getting the trajectories required considerable calculations, but it wasn’t beyond the skill of humanity in the 1960s. Also, you may be overstating the slight deviation = massive miss problem. Keep in mind that both the Earth and the Moon are large, massive objects and had large gravity wells utilized in the trajectories.
“3) Every video tape today of the first moon landing is proven to be a copy, not the original tape. If cutting and pasting was actually done (to produce a forgery,) it can only be proven on the original. The original is gone. Nasa says they accidentally taped something else over the original video tape. What was this? Someone’s bar mitzvah video that someone accidentally taped a football game over it?? It cost 355 million dollars, and billions in today’s money, and they weren’t careful???”
This is essentially an argument from ignorance fallacy. The absence of the tapes does not necessarily mean that they were forged. There were other Apollo missions as well. And after this many decades the original tapes would have degraded by now anyway.
“4) President Kennedy vowed to beat the Russians and that the USA would land on the moon before the end of the decade. They had to show something by 1969. The pressure was enormous.”
Absolutely, and ridiculous amounts of money got thrown at NASA to get it done. Money that NASA does not have now.
“5) They were no where near the technology in that time to do this.”
What technology was missing? Thousands of eyewitnesses saw the Saturn V rocket launches.
“6) Everyone involved in this hoax on the world, including the 3 original astronauts, could never ever reveal it, without becoming the most hated charlatans in history.”
Was only Apollo 11 a fake, but the other moon landings were real? Or were they all fake? Thousands of people were engaged in the Apollo program. Not a single one of them could be bribed by Russia or China to dish dirt?
“7) There was never evidence found of a USA flag post left on the moon.”
There are multiple landing sites with flags. These landing sites have been observed via telescopes and lunar landers. China has the capabilities to observe this as well. These sightings showed that, as suspected by the Apollo 11 astronauts, the flag planted at the first lunar landing site fell down. It’s also been bleached by the sun. Footprints are still there.
I agree with DaasYochid’s take. My concerns with respect to AI technology are more about the potential for economic and social upheaval (e.g., job losses, technology far outpacing the societal implementation of safety/morality boundaries, continued removal of privacy), which the Internet and “smart” devices have already initiated and only seem to be accelerating. I also fear the motives of the people wielding the technology more than the “motives” of the technology itself.
RR44,
“I was discussing using something that is created through trampling on Shabbos”
It’s still different. The issue with Angel Bakery was not chillul Shabbos due possibly more to ignorance and disbelief than malice, but rather the willful disrespect of a gadol borne from hatred of chareidim, Torah Judaism, and Hashem.
Redleg,
Is Ray Kaufman an alternate username of yours, or do we have two forum members each with 50 years of experience building power plants?
“I am not paskening”
But you seem to be criticizing psakim.
“It is beyond question that most of the reponsa concerning electricity ere based on incomplete or misunderstood information.”
I’m guessing you might not like this answer, but what I heard a rav once say: the gedolim knew that electricity was assur for Shabbos, based on their expertise of Shabbos. So having a detailed knowledge of how exactly electricity works (or even which exact melacha it violates) is immaterial.
“The operators melacha consists of sitting and watching a computer monitor.”
Really? They never even press a key, or move the mouse, or anything? What an awesome job.
“Please note that I have been building and operating power plants for 50 years and I have a pretty good idea how they work. “
Appeal to authority fallacy. Ray Kaufman (if not you) also claims 50 years of experience building power plants, and he writes, “As a simple example, I have seen articles and Piskei Teshuva that refer to a “flow of electrons” This is not correct. Electrons don’t flow. The remain in their in their respective atoms.” This is simply not true. Electrons do have a net flow – that’s what an electrical current is. They just flow quite slowly, just over an inch a minute in typical house wiring. Given that the protons and neutrons of the copper wiring do not move, then yes, actually, the electrons do leave their respective atoms.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“Having a few solid, well-adjusted BT’s is better than having a big Chabad House full of wacky, quasi-frum am haartzim clinging on to unjustifiable shittos without ever being corrected only to have children who never fit into a real frum community.”
From my experience, the BTs who have the most success are the ones who move into established frum communities and are willing to accept that they are not the smartest or most knowledgeable person in the room. Part of the “wackiness” you’re describing is quite simply a lack of experience, and a misunderstanding of what’s important. A Shabbos spent in a frum community with a frum family teaches way more than a book.
Also, Chabad kiruv tries to “ignite the spark” with a focus on performing a mitzvah, and they are very good at this, but someone new to frumkeit needs considerable guidance. They need to be taught the priorities, so they’re not sitting in shul without tzitzis or a tallis while very makpid on wearing a gartel. I also think that the discussions surrounding frum communities and culture should be honest and not sugarcoated. Successful BTs are coming to Judaism because they want to follow Hashem. Not people.
n0mesorah,
“I don’t know if that would work. You don’t make strong balei teshuvah through hashkafa battles.”
I don’t think AviraDeArah was suggesting to wage a “hashkafa battle” with a potential BT, but rather to explain Jewish values clearly, honestly, and (most important) respectfully. This is not an easy thing to do, but if Jewish values are misrepresented in an attempt to make frumkeit more palatable to someone with a very different values system, they will ultimately feel betrayed.
Sam Klein,
“BOTH Rocket ships that blew up & killed everyone on board ( Shuttle Columbia with Israeli & Shuttle of 1986 with a lady ) had jews on it. What is Hashem’s message from this? Hashem says i put you here on Earth to do your job don’t go to another planet & try to see other worlds.”
There have been other Jews in space on missions that did not end in tragedy. Also, the space shuttles were never designed to leave low Earth orbit. They were intended to be reusable vehicles that could bring people into orbit at the same time as large payloads.
Lostspark,
“Why has space travel capability regressed for 50 years when every other technology has advanced?”
Multiple reasons:
1. Do a Web search for a chart of NASA’s annual budget over the years, and this alone should answer your question. The US threw in an unbelievable amount of money to get the Mercury and Apollo Programs stood up.
2. The Apollo technology was designed quickly (“before this decade is out…”), and safety was the top priority, not cost efficiency. A moon mission was prohibitively expensive and most of the equipment was designed to be used just once.
3. A big motivator for early US space efforts was a technological arms race with the Soviet Union. The Soviets got an early jump on the US in rocketry and getting satellites and people into space, but they never had an answer to the Apollo program.
4. Space programs since Apollo have primarily focused on low Earth orbit. We now have tons of satellites up there, providing GPS, weather data, communications, telescopes, etc. It’s a much bigger benefit (and military concern) for a smaller cost.
5. This wasn’t a factor in the cancellation of the Apollo program, but subsequent research has shown that interplanetary space travel has dangers that weren’t fully realized in the 1960s and 1970s: damaging collisions with tiny objects, solar radiation, health issues from staying in low gravity for long periods of time.Zetruth,
“this platform was the wrong place to post anything”
Why?
n0mesorah,
“I basically learned how to read from this site. All the times you posted about corrupting kids? I was tht kid. And, thank you for the fascinating view of how we yidden can be schismatic.”
While the majority of participants in the CR are frum Jews, I think the CR only reflects the CR, and is not necessarily representative of the frum world.
“Should I continue?”
By all means!
akuperma,
“Then why do people opposed to “LOBBYISTS, CORPORATIONS, AND INTEREST GROUPS” frequently win elections.”
Because it sounds good, and talk is cheap.
“The results of elections in many countries show that the anti-elites frequently win.”
The problem is, “elites” is a euphemism for “my opponents”. For example, can you name a US president in modern times who can really reject the label “elite”? Or who won without any support from lobbyists, corporations, and interest groups?
“This suggests that those arguing that the government stinks are likely to really be complaining that they were outvoted and they are just sore losers”
I don’t think so.
Zetruth,
“but still the torah says one who study and doesn’t put this in practice, its considered vain..”
“Put this in practice” refers to proper performance of the mitzvos learned. Can you tell me where in the Torah your “sipur” about the holy grail can be found? And can you cogently explain its relevance, and what you expect us to “do” in response to it?
akuperma,
“The “superpower” of politicians is to figure what the [lobbyists, corporations, and interest groups] want and to give them enough of it so they get reelected.”
FTFY.
Zetruth,
“Are you MD?”
No, I’m a person, not one of the 50 states in the Union.
“While so many people are studying complex torah lessons, they seem to be out of touch with what is happening in the real world.”
You have it backwards. The Torah is our guide to the “real world.” What you call the “real world” I call the olam hasheker.
“am I entitled to have an opinion here?!”
I never said you didn’t.
Zetruth,
“It seems like no one is at the level of the coffee room here”
I was making a joke about decaffeinated coffee in reference to another thread.
741,
“Can any of the coffee room regulars let an am ha’aretz know what is the difference between a caffeinated coffee room and a decaf coffee room.”
The CR is powered by WordPress software. An older version allowed multiple subforums to be displayed on the CR landing page. But the current version does not allow that. We also lost our subtitles 🙁 Therefore, what was previously one of the subforums: “Decaffeinated Coffee” now is the default forum. If you put your post into other subforums, it won’t be visible when people land on the CR.
Maybe this is another answer to Neville ChaimBerlin. With everyone consuming decaf only, the CR has become a sleepy place!
Zetruth,
“Chavua tov, so there this sipur about an ill king who is strugling with infertility, other health issues and economic issues, the world has no meaning anymore until he finds his holy grail”
This is not a d’var Torah at all, and it is not a Jewish story. Are you Jewish?
Hi Neville ChaimBerlin,
“You might remember me from ~4 or 5 years ago”
You might remember me too. I’ve been on the CR since the early days, though my posts seem less memorable in general.
“We had our token leftists”
Maybe it was before your time, but we also had posters such as (these are from memory, so may not get them exactly right): Illini007, Feif Un, OhTeeDee, etc., so I think the left wing representation was more robust than you remember.
“but by criticizing the religious/political-left”
These are not the same thing. We have posters on here now who are seemingly quite far to the right politically but rather left on the religious spectrum, and vice versa.
“I presume I might get censored here just as I would on mainstream internet forums. How did this happen? Did management change?”
My personal view is that the earlier CR participants developed a lot of camaraderie with each other, and over the years many of those participants have stopped being active, and newer participants haven’t developed the same level of camaraderie. Maybe it’s because people have turned to other forms of social media (like WhatsApp). Additionally, the earlier CR used to have discussions and debates primarily of religious or Jewish-specific cultural issues. Now there is much more focus on national political issues. I also notice many participants who exhibit remarkable differences in writing styles depending on the issue, or whether the post is an OP or a response. It leads me to wonder if a number of current participants see themselves (or are even employed) as “influencers”, and are posting recycled content/sound bites, or even engaging in false-flag trolling. That surprises me a bit, because the CR seems like an awfully small pond for an influx of external influencers.
“”Who cares what the Torah says!” and it gets let through?”
I missed this, where was it posted? There’s a pinned thread intended for participants to directly interact with the mods. If egregiously bad posts are making it through, you can maybe point it out there. I think there are fewer mods than there used to be, but they still genuinely seem to care about the forum.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“You mentioned it as something you students equate with becoming more observant.”
No he didn’t. He said it was something some of his former students would approach him and ask. It is entirely your uninformed assumption that the reason for the question is that this is what the kid equates with being more observant. Every kid I know who has chosen himself to don a black hat and jacket is doing much more – davening with more kavannah, saying krias shema slowly while reading each word from the siddur, being careful with mitzvos, shteiging more, etc. They look up to yeshiva men. They want to emulate yeshiva men, to do what they do, and wear what they wear. So why is the kid asking about the hat specifically and not the shteiging or davening? Because it’s the hat that makes people freak out, and thus feels confusing and controversial. So, quite bluntly, it’s not Avira who’s causing kids to come with hat shailos, it’s you. Those who are big and bad on fighting for the kid who doesn’t want to wear a hat should stop stifling the kid who does.
“Some seem to be upset with nominally observant Yidden because they are not enlightened enough; others – with people who think dress is the enlightment people need, ortho-prax or not.”
And some people give kollel learners such a hard time that they feel embarrassment when asked “what do you do?” Some people (Ashkenazim) seem personally offended if they hear a Yiddish word or expression. Interestingly those who do this tend to fall within a set of identifiable clothing choices. Should I see this as people being imperfect people, or make generalizations about all people who wear those clothes?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Others wear whatever was worn by reasonable people at their time – jackets, hats or caps, depending on time & place.”
Fedoras, dress shirts, and suit jackets were all garments commonly worn by the general American population through at least the 1950s. The American yeshiva communities have subsequently settled on a particular subset of these (formerly) common garments: white shirt, black pants, black suit jackets, and black fedoras. If rabbonim are wearing black fedoras and short jackets that are indistinguishable from what the yeshivish rank-and-file wear, then it is those rabbonim who adjusted their style of dress. And it is the uninformed assumption of those unfamiliar with the yeshiva community that black jackets and hats automatically equal clergyman.
n0mesorah,
“So maybe you want to rephrase your question to me.”
I had two questions that were aimed towards a similar goal. You seem to be answering the second one in your subsequent response.
“I don’t see the need to be concerned about his overall structures of belief. If he comes qualified for his job, we would assume (Perhaps we are wrong for taking this for granted. Perhaps I am wrong and rabbis are grilled on their beliefs.) that he has the ideas that necessitate his qualifications.”
So you seem to be saying that if the rav comes personally recommended from already trusted sources, and seems to fulfill his “rabbinic duties” correctly, he has a chezkas kashrus that he fulfills the belief-thought-emotional based mitzvos? That’s fair, but is not the same thing as not being “concerned” with it.
“If the posek doesn’t understand that Torah is min Hashamayim, then he isn’t fully qualified to pasken.”
Other than the addition of the word “fully”, I think we are in agreement.
“In short, I didn’t give a clear answer. Because I’m uncomfortable with the scenario.”
We learn in the mishna that people tasked with big responsibilities had to be investigated as to whether they were secretly Tzedukim. The sages cried when they did this, so I definitely understand the discomfort, but it doesn’t negate the need for concern.
“But more important, is that the one who is imparting beliefs – whether as a school teacher or giving lectures to adults, is open and up front about what he or she is completely convinced of, and what is unclear to them. Then at least the pupils won’t have blind faith that their instructor has worked everything out.”
I agree in theory, though in practice this is not so simple.
Gadolhadorah,
“Anyone in chinuch who is posting daily about despising all the parents, teachers and the school in which he lectures is unlikely to be a “big lamdan”, although he may be a legend in his own mind”
Is there someone in this thread who is doing that? Because I’ve read through it and do not see it. Gadolhadofi seems to think this imaginary poster exists too. Is it a shared delusion? Or a shared prejudice?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“But this goes hand-in-hand with the overall theory of schooling: if the teacher is sure that he is “frummer” and he just needs to save kids from the parents’ aveiros, then there is no need to inquire.”
So I asked earlier about all of this hand wringing: “Maybe what you’re fearing is the rebbe telling his talmid that his parents’ yiddishkeit isn’t good enough?” and you didn’t respond. But I think this new post indirectly answers me in the affirmative. How do you see this playing out?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“This is an interesting point. So, the “rebbe”‘s job is to teach the kid “Torah” and the parents’ job to teach the rest of the Torah?!”
It is the parent’s responsibility to teach his children Torah. The melamed or rebbe is an agent of the parents in this mitzvah.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Here is a quote from a book by a yeshivish Rav who both uses the hats but sees the limits”
Is that a quote or a paraphrase from your memory? And what book are you referring to?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Either someone needs to police their uniform.”
Or grown people can emotionally graduate from high school and realize that they’re responsible to captain their own ship and can stop being threatened because their neighbor makes different choices than they do.
DaMoshe,
“There was an interview years ago with R’ Yosef Tendler zt”l, who was one of the early students of R’ Ahron Kotler in Lakewood. He was asked if the talmidim at that time wore black hats. He said that no, only the Rosh Yeshiva and Mashgiach did, and it would have been considered disrespectful for the boys to wear them.”
Can you point to a source for this interview? I find this difficult to accept as presented. First, in the 1940s when Rav Kotler started BMG, everyone wore hats, Jew and non-Jew alike. Black fedoras were extremely popular in the US. So it certainly wasn’t just the Rosh Yeshiva who would be wearing a hat. Second, I have seen photos of yeshivos from that era, and everyone was wearing hats. Sure, not all of them were black, but many were.
“How times have changed.”
It’s ironic how chareidim get dinged on both ends of this.
The little I know,
“You continue to castigate the professionals as people who deliver goyishe values to their clientele. That is parently false.”
I think you and CS may be addressing different cases. You seem to be describing a scenario where a frum couple seeks advice from a rav, who refers them to a hand-picked, well known therapist who shares our community’s values. CS seems to be describing a scenario where the couple bypasses the rav and goes to an unvetted therapist.
“In fact, the true professional does not impose their values on clients. And even more important, the professionals learned their science from the goyishe resources, יש חכמה בגוים, but have not subscribed to their values.”
It’s interesting that when it comes to rabbonim, you openly admit that they may have flaws and limitations, but by “true professionals” (what does that mean?), you give a glowing and uncritical haskamah. Are therapists not also flawed and limited people?
“And I challenge you to locate any of them who bypass Torah value for the goyishe standards as you accuse.”
Again, you seem to be taking a very small, handpicked subset of all therapists. CS is not. OOT is not going to be filled with frum therapists, kal vechomer Random College Town with the Chabad house being the only synagogue.
“My exposure is quite different, and your accusations are pathetic and baseless.”
Why do you assume that CS has no “exposure” of her own, or that your “exposure” is de facto legitimate while hers is not?
As a general comment to this thread, I think way too much emphasis is placed on it being the rabbi or therapist’s burden to push the magic buttons that fix marriage difficulties. If spouses come in with a desire to make things better, then a rabbi, a therapist, an outsider’s perspective, books by Rabbi Twersky, etc. can all be helpful. If there’s no desire to make things better, then even the best rav or therapist is unlikely to help much.
commonsaychel,
“the fact of the matter is that during Covid anything Fauci said was viewed by you as absolute truth and you pilloried anyone who offered a differing opinion”
You may be confusing AAQ with some other posters. AAQ has expressed distrust in government officials, so he’d likely be willing to put daylight between himself and Fauci, despite his positions on the Covid response being fairly similar.
Avi K,
“What about someone who wears the uniform but…”
The clothes don’t make the man. But the clothes do indicate how the wearer wishes to be identified. I don’t understand why this is so enigmatic.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Avira, my problem is your equating of decent behavior with getting a hat.”
Did he say this in a different thread? Because reading through this one, his example was a boy averting his eyes to avoid seeing pritzus, nothing about a hat.
“That said, why does your influence leads to their desire to get a hat, out of all things people can do to improve their middos?”
Because kids are hardwired to imitate their role models. If a boy really likes a particular baseball player, he’s going to want to wear that player’s jersey, even if he can’t smack a ball over a fence 400ft away. If he likes the Yankees or Orioles, he’s going to want a Yankees or Orioles hat to wear. If he’s inspired by his Yeshiva, he’s going to want to dress in a yeshiva style. I really don’t understand why you perceive this as bad. I see many MO families in my community with sons dressed in hats and jackets, and the parents have not torn their garments.
“Can you think about influencing them in such a way that the parent calls you to say – thank you very much, my son today said a wonderful dvar Torah, asked me to tell him about my grandfather and how he kept Yiddishkeit in Hungary, and cleaned dishes after the seudah?”
Do you think it’s an either or? And perhaps you’re putting too much of the parents’ job onto the rebbe. Parents should ask their kids for divrei Torah at the table. Don’t sit idle and wish the rebbe would do it. And I don’t expect a rebbe to know the background of every talmid’s grandparents and great-grandparents. What if the talmid is a child of BTs, and grandpa isn’t frum, and he ends up feeling left out? As for washing dishes after a seuda, again, this has more to do with parental expectations, though the rebbe should certainly be reinforcing kibbud av v’eim and helping out at home.
I have a feeling that a lot of this is a diversion. Maybe what you’re fearing is the rebbe telling his talmid that his parents’ yiddishkeit isn’t good enough?
Yserbius123,
“I agree with what @Avram_in_MD is saying”
😮
n0mesorah,
“What if he refuses to tell us what he believes?”
Well then, he just might not be a good candidate for the job.
“Is there supposed to be some kind of inquisition to make sure people are of the right mind on various critical matters?”
This is an appeal to an extreme. Did I say everyone needs interrogation? And inquisition is a loaded term. We are human beings; we cannot read someone else’s mind. If a Jew is making obvious efforts to follow the mitzvos (living in a frum community, observing Shabbos, YT, kashrus, dressing Jewishly, etc.), then he is assumed to be appropriately suited for basic communal functions. In some cases, we investigate more (or should investigate more), but at the end of the day we have to rely on the answers given. Have some people taken advantage of this (e.g., missionaries posing as frum Jews)? Yes.
“(Deep breath,) don’t ask me to get involved in who you choose as a rabbi.”
Ok, I won’t. But do you disagree with the need for any investigation into the beliefs or character of a man being considered to lead a community? Should we not care about whether the man who paskens Hashem’s law to us actually believes that Hashem exists and gave us that law?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“not in absolute scale. Just the Napoleonic wars had 3M soldiers and 1-3M civilians killed…”
The Napoleonic wars lasted around 15 years, whereas the US Civil War was less than 5. In terms of scale (e.g., size of armies), they were not as far apart as you might think once the US and Confederate war efforts ramped up. Napoleonic tactics used during the Civil War had some rude awakenings with more modernized artillery and rifled muskets. Of course scale is relative, as neither of these conflicts can compare to the two World Wars. And even in the 19th century there were conflicts in China with a death toll an order of magnitude greater than the Napoleonic wars, e.g., the Taiping War, Dungan War.
AviraDeArah,
“Some use the term orthopraxy to describe people who go through the motions of yiddishkeit while their hearts aren’t into it – that is NOT the issue here.”
I’d contend that the majority of people defined orthopraxy this way, which may be why you’re encountering significant resistance in this thread.
n0mesorah,
“But I should not be concerned that others are not thinking wrong. I answer amen to someone’s bracha even if I didn’t debate their belief in anything. My thoughts matter to me. Someone else’s doesn’t.”
If 9 people are waiting in shul and a man walks in with tallis and tefillin, we go ahead with yishtabach and kaddish, even if we don’t know him. We answer amen to his brachos. We may even give him an aliyah. This doesn’t really contradict what AviraDeArah is arguing. We give people who profess and act as frum Jews a chezkas kashrus by default. If we later learn that the man is a kofer, we no longer give the chezkas kashrus.
“Show one source that I should get involved in your yiras shamayim.”
What if a kehilla were considering this man to be their mora deasra?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“while American founders ended up being friends in later years; one “minor” civil war”
I’m not sure yet how much I want to wade into this thread, but the US Civil War was most certainly not “minor”. The war killed close to three quarters of a million soldiers, which, considering the population at the time, makes the conflict one of the deadliest in human history. Divisions over slavery and the balance of Northern and Southern power began shortly after American independence and roiled for decades before Lincoln’s election and South Carolina’s secession and shelling of Fort Sumter. The impacts of the war continue to affect many southern states generations later, and it is difficult to understand the United States without knowledge of the war. True, the conflict did not spill over borders into other countries, but the Battle of Gettysburg was on par with Waterloo, and the Civil War was the first “industrialized” conflict, forever changing how wars are fought.
n0mesorah,
“In your oddball opinions, what are the basic human rights?”
Based on the posting patterns, the “oddball opinions” may well be false-flag trolling.