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741,
“Can any of the coffee room regulars let an am ha’aretz know what is the difference between a caffeinated coffee room and a decaf coffee room.”
The CR is powered by WordPress software. An older version allowed multiple subforums to be displayed on the CR landing page. But the current version does not allow that. We also lost our subtitles 🙁 Therefore, what was previously one of the subforums: “Decaffeinated Coffee” now is the default forum. If you put your post into other subforums, it won’t be visible when people land on the CR.
Maybe this is another answer to Neville ChaimBerlin. With everyone consuming decaf only, the CR has become a sleepy place!
Zetruth,
“Chavua tov, so there this sipur about an ill king who is strugling with infertility, other health issues and economic issues, the world has no meaning anymore until he finds his holy grail”
This is not a d’var Torah at all, and it is not a Jewish story. Are you Jewish?
Hi Neville ChaimBerlin,
“You might remember me from ~4 or 5 years ago”
You might remember me too. I’ve been on the CR since the early days, though my posts seem less memorable in general.
“We had our token leftists”
Maybe it was before your time, but we also had posters such as (these are from memory, so may not get them exactly right): Illini007, Feif Un, OhTeeDee, etc., so I think the left wing representation was more robust than you remember.
“but by criticizing the religious/political-left”
These are not the same thing. We have posters on here now who are seemingly quite far to the right politically but rather left on the religious spectrum, and vice versa.
“I presume I might get censored here just as I would on mainstream internet forums. How did this happen? Did management change?”
My personal view is that the earlier CR participants developed a lot of camaraderie with each other, and over the years many of those participants have stopped being active, and newer participants haven’t developed the same level of camaraderie. Maybe it’s because people have turned to other forms of social media (like WhatsApp). Additionally, the earlier CR used to have discussions and debates primarily of religious or Jewish-specific cultural issues. Now there is much more focus on national political issues. I also notice many participants who exhibit remarkable differences in writing styles depending on the issue, or whether the post is an OP or a response. It leads me to wonder if a number of current participants see themselves (or are even employed) as “influencers”, and are posting recycled content/sound bites, or even engaging in false-flag trolling. That surprises me a bit, because the CR seems like an awfully small pond for an influx of external influencers.
“”Who cares what the Torah says!” and it gets let through?”
I missed this, where was it posted? There’s a pinned thread intended for participants to directly interact with the mods. If egregiously bad posts are making it through, you can maybe point it out there. I think there are fewer mods than there used to be, but they still genuinely seem to care about the forum.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“You mentioned it as something you students equate with becoming more observant.”
No he didn’t. He said it was something some of his former students would approach him and ask. It is entirely your uninformed assumption that the reason for the question is that this is what the kid equates with being more observant. Every kid I know who has chosen himself to don a black hat and jacket is doing much more – davening with more kavannah, saying krias shema slowly while reading each word from the siddur, being careful with mitzvos, shteiging more, etc. They look up to yeshiva men. They want to emulate yeshiva men, to do what they do, and wear what they wear. So why is the kid asking about the hat specifically and not the shteiging or davening? Because it’s the hat that makes people freak out, and thus feels confusing and controversial. So, quite bluntly, it’s not Avira who’s causing kids to come with hat shailos, it’s you. Those who are big and bad on fighting for the kid who doesn’t want to wear a hat should stop stifling the kid who does.
“Some seem to be upset with nominally observant Yidden because they are not enlightened enough; others – with people who think dress is the enlightment people need, ortho-prax or not.”
And some people give kollel learners such a hard time that they feel embarrassment when asked “what do you do?” Some people (Ashkenazim) seem personally offended if they hear a Yiddish word or expression. Interestingly those who do this tend to fall within a set of identifiable clothing choices. Should I see this as people being imperfect people, or make generalizations about all people who wear those clothes?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Others wear whatever was worn by reasonable people at their time – jackets, hats or caps, depending on time & place.”
Fedoras, dress shirts, and suit jackets were all garments commonly worn by the general American population through at least the 1950s. The American yeshiva communities have subsequently settled on a particular subset of these (formerly) common garments: white shirt, black pants, black suit jackets, and black fedoras. If rabbonim are wearing black fedoras and short jackets that are indistinguishable from what the yeshivish rank-and-file wear, then it is those rabbonim who adjusted their style of dress. And it is the uninformed assumption of those unfamiliar with the yeshiva community that black jackets and hats automatically equal clergyman.
n0mesorah,
“So maybe you want to rephrase your question to me.”
I had two questions that were aimed towards a similar goal. You seem to be answering the second one in your subsequent response.
“I don’t see the need to be concerned about his overall structures of belief. If he comes qualified for his job, we would assume (Perhaps we are wrong for taking this for granted. Perhaps I am wrong and rabbis are grilled on their beliefs.) that he has the ideas that necessitate his qualifications.”
So you seem to be saying that if the rav comes personally recommended from already trusted sources, and seems to fulfill his “rabbinic duties” correctly, he has a chezkas kashrus that he fulfills the belief-thought-emotional based mitzvos? That’s fair, but is not the same thing as not being “concerned” with it.
“If the posek doesn’t understand that Torah is min Hashamayim, then he isn’t fully qualified to pasken.”
Other than the addition of the word “fully”, I think we are in agreement.
“In short, I didn’t give a clear answer. Because I’m uncomfortable with the scenario.”
We learn in the mishna that people tasked with big responsibilities had to be investigated as to whether they were secretly Tzedukim. The sages cried when they did this, so I definitely understand the discomfort, but it doesn’t negate the need for concern.
“But more important, is that the one who is imparting beliefs – whether as a school teacher or giving lectures to adults, is open and up front about what he or she is completely convinced of, and what is unclear to them. Then at least the pupils won’t have blind faith that their instructor has worked everything out.”
I agree in theory, though in practice this is not so simple.
Gadolhadorah,
“Anyone in chinuch who is posting daily about despising all the parents, teachers and the school in which he lectures is unlikely to be a “big lamdan”, although he may be a legend in his own mind”
Is there someone in this thread who is doing that? Because I’ve read through it and do not see it. Gadolhadofi seems to think this imaginary poster exists too. Is it a shared delusion? Or a shared prejudice?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“But this goes hand-in-hand with the overall theory of schooling: if the teacher is sure that he is “frummer” and he just needs to save kids from the parents’ aveiros, then there is no need to inquire.”
So I asked earlier about all of this hand wringing: “Maybe what you’re fearing is the rebbe telling his talmid that his parents’ yiddishkeit isn’t good enough?” and you didn’t respond. But I think this new post indirectly answers me in the affirmative. How do you see this playing out?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“This is an interesting point. So, the “rebbe”‘s job is to teach the kid “Torah” and the parents’ job to teach the rest of the Torah?!”
It is the parent’s responsibility to teach his children Torah. The melamed or rebbe is an agent of the parents in this mitzvah.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Here is a quote from a book by a yeshivish Rav who both uses the hats but sees the limits”
Is that a quote or a paraphrase from your memory? And what book are you referring to?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Either someone needs to police their uniform.”
Or grown people can emotionally graduate from high school and realize that they’re responsible to captain their own ship and can stop being threatened because their neighbor makes different choices than they do.
DaMoshe,
“There was an interview years ago with R’ Yosef Tendler zt”l, who was one of the early students of R’ Ahron Kotler in Lakewood. He was asked if the talmidim at that time wore black hats. He said that no, only the Rosh Yeshiva and Mashgiach did, and it would have been considered disrespectful for the boys to wear them.”
Can you point to a source for this interview? I find this difficult to accept as presented. First, in the 1940s when Rav Kotler started BMG, everyone wore hats, Jew and non-Jew alike. Black fedoras were extremely popular in the US. So it certainly wasn’t just the Rosh Yeshiva who would be wearing a hat. Second, I have seen photos of yeshivos from that era, and everyone was wearing hats. Sure, not all of them were black, but many were.
“How times have changed.”
It’s ironic how chareidim get dinged on both ends of this.
The little I know,
“You continue to castigate the professionals as people who deliver goyishe values to their clientele. That is parently false.”
I think you and CS may be addressing different cases. You seem to be describing a scenario where a frum couple seeks advice from a rav, who refers them to a hand-picked, well known therapist who shares our community’s values. CS seems to be describing a scenario where the couple bypasses the rav and goes to an unvetted therapist.
“In fact, the true professional does not impose their values on clients. And even more important, the professionals learned their science from the goyishe resources, יש חכמה בגוים, but have not subscribed to their values.”
It’s interesting that when it comes to rabbonim, you openly admit that they may have flaws and limitations, but by “true professionals” (what does that mean?), you give a glowing and uncritical haskamah. Are therapists not also flawed and limited people?
“And I challenge you to locate any of them who bypass Torah value for the goyishe standards as you accuse.”
Again, you seem to be taking a very small, handpicked subset of all therapists. CS is not. OOT is not going to be filled with frum therapists, kal vechomer Random College Town with the Chabad house being the only synagogue.
“My exposure is quite different, and your accusations are pathetic and baseless.”
Why do you assume that CS has no “exposure” of her own, or that your “exposure” is de facto legitimate while hers is not?
As a general comment to this thread, I think way too much emphasis is placed on it being the rabbi or therapist’s burden to push the magic buttons that fix marriage difficulties. If spouses come in with a desire to make things better, then a rabbi, a therapist, an outsider’s perspective, books by Rabbi Twersky, etc. can all be helpful. If there’s no desire to make things better, then even the best rav or therapist is unlikely to help much.
commonsaychel,
“the fact of the matter is that during Covid anything Fauci said was viewed by you as absolute truth and you pilloried anyone who offered a differing opinion”
You may be confusing AAQ with some other posters. AAQ has expressed distrust in government officials, so he’d likely be willing to put daylight between himself and Fauci, despite his positions on the Covid response being fairly similar.
Avi K,
“What about someone who wears the uniform but…”
The clothes don’t make the man. But the clothes do indicate how the wearer wishes to be identified. I don’t understand why this is so enigmatic.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Avira, my problem is your equating of decent behavior with getting a hat.”
Did he say this in a different thread? Because reading through this one, his example was a boy averting his eyes to avoid seeing pritzus, nothing about a hat.
“That said, why does your influence leads to their desire to get a hat, out of all things people can do to improve their middos?”
Because kids are hardwired to imitate their role models. If a boy really likes a particular baseball player, he’s going to want to wear that player’s jersey, even if he can’t smack a ball over a fence 400ft away. If he likes the Yankees or Orioles, he’s going to want a Yankees or Orioles hat to wear. If he’s inspired by his Yeshiva, he’s going to want to dress in a yeshiva style. I really don’t understand why you perceive this as bad. I see many MO families in my community with sons dressed in hats and jackets, and the parents have not torn their garments.
“Can you think about influencing them in such a way that the parent calls you to say – thank you very much, my son today said a wonderful dvar Torah, asked me to tell him about my grandfather and how he kept Yiddishkeit in Hungary, and cleaned dishes after the seudah?”
Do you think it’s an either or? And perhaps you’re putting too much of the parents’ job onto the rebbe. Parents should ask their kids for divrei Torah at the table. Don’t sit idle and wish the rebbe would do it. And I don’t expect a rebbe to know the background of every talmid’s grandparents and great-grandparents. What if the talmid is a child of BTs, and grandpa isn’t frum, and he ends up feeling left out? As for washing dishes after a seuda, again, this has more to do with parental expectations, though the rebbe should certainly be reinforcing kibbud av v’eim and helping out at home.
I have a feeling that a lot of this is a diversion. Maybe what you’re fearing is the rebbe telling his talmid that his parents’ yiddishkeit isn’t good enough?
Yserbius123,
“I agree with what @Avram_in_MD is saying”
😮
n0mesorah,
“What if he refuses to tell us what he believes?”
Well then, he just might not be a good candidate for the job.
“Is there supposed to be some kind of inquisition to make sure people are of the right mind on various critical matters?”
This is an appeal to an extreme. Did I say everyone needs interrogation? And inquisition is a loaded term. We are human beings; we cannot read someone else’s mind. If a Jew is making obvious efforts to follow the mitzvos (living in a frum community, observing Shabbos, YT, kashrus, dressing Jewishly, etc.), then he is assumed to be appropriately suited for basic communal functions. In some cases, we investigate more (or should investigate more), but at the end of the day we have to rely on the answers given. Have some people taken advantage of this (e.g., missionaries posing as frum Jews)? Yes.
“(Deep breath,) don’t ask me to get involved in who you choose as a rabbi.”
Ok, I won’t. But do you disagree with the need for any investigation into the beliefs or character of a man being considered to lead a community? Should we not care about whether the man who paskens Hashem’s law to us actually believes that Hashem exists and gave us that law?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“not in absolute scale. Just the Napoleonic wars had 3M soldiers and 1-3M civilians killed…”
The Napoleonic wars lasted around 15 years, whereas the US Civil War was less than 5. In terms of scale (e.g., size of armies), they were not as far apart as you might think once the US and Confederate war efforts ramped up. Napoleonic tactics used during the Civil War had some rude awakenings with more modernized artillery and rifled muskets. Of course scale is relative, as neither of these conflicts can compare to the two World Wars. And even in the 19th century there were conflicts in China with a death toll an order of magnitude greater than the Napoleonic wars, e.g., the Taiping War, Dungan War.
AviraDeArah,
“Some use the term orthopraxy to describe people who go through the motions of yiddishkeit while their hearts aren’t into it – that is NOT the issue here.”
I’d contend that the majority of people defined orthopraxy this way, which may be why you’re encountering significant resistance in this thread.
n0mesorah,
“But I should not be concerned that others are not thinking wrong. I answer amen to someone’s bracha even if I didn’t debate their belief in anything. My thoughts matter to me. Someone else’s doesn’t.”
If 9 people are waiting in shul and a man walks in with tallis and tefillin, we go ahead with yishtabach and kaddish, even if we don’t know him. We answer amen to his brachos. We may even give him an aliyah. This doesn’t really contradict what AviraDeArah is arguing. We give people who profess and act as frum Jews a chezkas kashrus by default. If we later learn that the man is a kofer, we no longer give the chezkas kashrus.
“Show one source that I should get involved in your yiras shamayim.”
What if a kehilla were considering this man to be their mora deasra?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“while American founders ended up being friends in later years; one “minor” civil war”
I’m not sure yet how much I want to wade into this thread, but the US Civil War was most certainly not “minor”. The war killed close to three quarters of a million soldiers, which, considering the population at the time, makes the conflict one of the deadliest in human history. Divisions over slavery and the balance of Northern and Southern power began shortly after American independence and roiled for decades before Lincoln’s election and South Carolina’s secession and shelling of Fort Sumter. The impacts of the war continue to affect many southern states generations later, and it is difficult to understand the United States without knowledge of the war. True, the conflict did not spill over borders into other countries, but the Battle of Gettysburg was on par with Waterloo, and the Civil War was the first “industrialized” conflict, forever changing how wars are fought.
n0mesorah,
“In your oddball opinions, what are the basic human rights?”
Based on the posting patterns, the “oddball opinions” may well be false-flag trolling.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“authorities dared to inconvenience your lifestyle”
Oooh, you’re teaching a masterclass in gaslighting and emotional invalidation. If you think the pandemic response was merely an inconvenience for most people, then the only person who thinks we reside on the same planet is Avi Loeb over at Harvard.
MikolMelamdai,
“there are a few companies that are trying to create a dumb phone that has the necessary capabilities, there is light phone, punkt and maybe another one.”
The Mudita Pure, though both the Punkt and Mudita phones lack QWERTY keyboards and are even more expensive than the Light Phone II. The creator of the Punkt phone says, “if anyone wants to talk to me, they can give me a call”. I personally text way more than call, so I prefer having a touchscreen/QWERTY keyboard. The other challenge with these dumbphones is needing multiple devices to maintain the functionality a smartphone provides notably a GPS in the car, a flashlight, and a camera.
“By the way I’ve read online about apps that will make your iphone look like a dumb phone without icons, black and white etc.”
I run Android, which is more customizable than iOS. The primary interface you have with an Android device is the “launcher” (now called the Home app), which can be changed out. I currently use Olauncher, an open source launcher that has no icons. My “home” screen has the time and date, followed by my 8 most used apps (list of editable names, no icons). Swiping up shows a word list of all installed apps, with the ability to type text that matches an app’s name to launch it automatically. So, for example, I can swipe up and type “po”, and my podcast app launches immediately.
Yserbius123,
“There are problems in every frum community. Most of them admit it and have long discussions regarding how to fix them.”
This is entirely and sadly untrue. N0mesorah has been criticizing your fictitious descriptions of Lakewood, and I’m here to call out your equally fictitious descriptions of MO communities.
“But there are communities that have very blatant open issues that are so big they affect people outside those communities.”
Whatever.
“And people are screaming at them to fix it, but they adamantly refuse to acknowledge that there’s even an issue.”
Hmm, maybe “people” can take a break from bashing “Lakewood” and have some long discussions regarding how to fix this. Maybe “Lakewood” people don’t like being hated on and misrepresented. Maybe they see your community’s so-called “solutions” and don’t like them, or don’t see them as solutions at all. Maybe they don’t see things in your community as wonderfully as you make them out to be, and they don’t like the hypocrisy of “people” wagging a finger at them while their own house burns. Maybe they even have young musmachim coming into your community offering Torah learning to disaffected young people, because they realize that we’re all Jews.
MikolMelamdai,
“I need one that supports 4G (because 2g and 3g are not supported at least by some of the carriers), preferably with a qwerty keyboard (though I know that’s hard to find), with hotspot capabilities but with a way to block internet on the actual device.”
It might be worth taking a look at the Light Phone II. It is a niche style tiny E–Ink device with a touchscreen (QWERTY keyboard). It is 4G, can make a hotspot, and has no browser at all. It can call, SMS/MMS (images don‘t show up on the phone but can be forwarded to email), play music and podcasts, clock alarm, calculator, a directions tool, and recently a calendar. To my mind that‘s almost the perfect set of tools I want in a phone (if only it had a camera and flashlight I‘d shout its praise from the rooftops).
The downsides of the device are the the janky refreshing screen that all E–Ink devices share by necessity, a bit slower touch responsiveness than people are used to with a smartphone, a small battery that drains quickly when reception is poor or using directions, and a rather high price compared to other dumbphones (it‘s a small company and the target customer seems to be the Yuppy millennial who realizes how harmful smartphone addiction can be but still likes tech). Still much cheaper than a new IPhone or high end Android smartphone. The software is LightOS, which is a fork of Android.ujm,
“If driving customs are based on local minhagim, how is anyone not from the area to know what the local driving customs are”
There’s no way to know, and it’s almost impossible for a driver in an unfamiliar area to completely “go with the flow” and not cause any annoyance. But there are some broad generalizations that can be made:
1. Nowhere else in the US is driving quite like it is in the NYC metro. So NYers should in general when outside of the NYC metro should give extra space between their vehicle than others (perceived as aggressive), try to avoid changing lanes into tight spaces (perceived as cutting off), avoid quick maneuvers like fast and sudden U-turns (perceived as scary), and accept the fact that OOTers have a slightly slower reaction speed to light changes (they’re not intentionally trying to harm you).
2. Driving is a bit more NY-like inside big Northern cities and parts of South FL (DC, Baltimore, Philly, Boston, Chicago, Miami), but less so in bigger Southern cities (Orlando, Atlanta, St. Louis).
3. For OOT drivers going into NYC, stay alert and even-keeled, and say some tehillim. Short honks are more like communication than rudeness (hey I’m here, ooh guess what the light’s green!). And pedestrians in NYC can chew off metal bumpers.Always_Ask_Questions,
I think we are in agreement re: the driving digression, except for one point:
“If you feel that you have to be a rude person because everyone around you are, you need to follow Rambam and Chazon Ish and move to the desert”
My contention is that New York drivers may not feel they are being rude, though drivers outside of the city and environs perceive the rushed, aggressive decisiveness of NY-style driving as rude. That’s why I half-jokingly suggested you could produce some pamphlets to teach NYers about the local driving customs.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“it is interesting why frumer Yidden drive similar to other MY-ers”
You already answered your question above: “You are supposed to follow local minhagim“. Based on your story, a failure to do so results in a good loud honking.
“One trick my kids and I are using is counting how much hesed you do during a trip, letting people inside the lane, make a hard turn, etc. If you remember about it, you can consistently do it at least 2-3 times per trip. “
So why not do this in a black hat and make a kiddush Hashem?
Note that the nuances of driving are complex. For example, when at a 4-way stop, it’s first come first go. If you decide to be Mr. Gracious Chosid Shoteh and let others go ahead of you, it causes frustration, as you are doing something the other drivers do not expect, which increases uncertainty (uhh why aren’t you going fella?). Safe driving requires a high level of decisiveness, so your movements are predictable. Also, if you allow kol haolam kulo to merge in front of you, that’s fine for you, but who permitted you to sentence the driver behind you to a delay?
I understand what you’re saying and I agree, I really do. I also try to let people in if I see them signalling, etc. But outside of flagrant rudeness (bad gestures or yelling, sustained honking, dangerous maneuvers that force you to take evasive action), it’s probably better for the blood pressure to work on assuming the other driver wasn’t deliberately trying to be rude than to declare him a boor. Many times when I’ve “cut someone off”, it wasn’t deliberate, and if I had a two-way radio, I’d say “oops, sorry about that.”
Always_Ask_Questions,
“An illustration unrelated to 👒”
I’ll rebut with my own story unrelated to 👒. Once I received a phone call from some medical supplier I was unfamiliar with. I answered, and they asked to speak to some person who was not me. So I told them it was the wrong phone number. They apologized and wished me a good day. I wished them the same. They haven’t called me again.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“when someone in a black 👒 cuts me off on th street, I point it out to the kids that this is hopefully just an am Haaretz in a hat and they shouldn’t think that talmidei chachomim drive like that.”
Surely there are nicer things you can tell your kids. NYC driving is a completely different world than OOT driving. My grandfather would drive very differently in NY compared to OOT. I asked him about this, and he said, “this is my OOT driving, and this is my NY driving!” Perhaps your talmid chacham fellow motorist had little experience with OOT driving minhagim and thought you had fallen asleep due to your 0.5 second delay and lackluster effort on the gas pedal. Maybe you can provide a service to the Jewish people by producing informational pamphlets about OOT driving. Some suggested titles: “Thanks for the honking heads up, but I am aware the light turned green a second ago, let me finish this email”, “Here in Podunkville personal space means 1 car in a lane at a time”, or “If you make me brake I’ll be sad”.
“I can’t though plant this thought into other drivers’ heads”
You have made my argument for me! You must put on a black hat and jacket, and drive super slow in the left lane, allowing everyone in, waving and smiling. Change those perceptions!
Always_Ask_Questions,
“So – for us – wearing a black hat means dressing like a Talmid Chacham, Slobodka Rosh Yeshiva, etc – and the requirement is to behave accordingly, which is a tall order, and we both humbly do not pretend.”
This is a cop-out. Dress the part then strive to live it. When I’m in the grocery store in a white shirt and black pants, the only people who might confuse me for a rabbi are non-Jews or non-frum Jews. And if they call me rabbi I can correct them. And if they don’t call me rabbi, who cares? They don’t need me to pasken complicated shailos for them, they need a smile, hello, and occasionally to know what aisle the graham crackers are in.
Gadolhadorah,
“If the objective is to “identify” with a group (in this case “bnai torah”) it would seem you would do so through your actions and behavior rather than virtue signaling through your wearing a black hat and suit.”
The two are not mutually exclusive, and that’s just not how human society works, sorry.
huju,
“I am too tired to fully respond to your comment, so for now, I will say that you have have completely missed the point. Plastic bags are not proper clothing for anyone.”
He did not miss your point. He was asking a question on a statement you made that happens to be incorrect. I have spoken to several hatters who told me that many black felt hats will indeed be damaged by rain and must be protected. Some hats, such as Borsalinos, are claimed to be water resistant. I get from the context that you don’t like plastic bags on the hats, but rather than advising people to damage their hats in order to satisfy your sartorial sensibilities, you could have recommended other means, such as a specially designed raincoat (shaynecoat) or a rain hat, and people would not have “missed the point.”
huju,
“If you look at photographs of frum people that were taken 50 years ago, you will see that frum attire has evolved.”
We don’t need to go back 50 years. There are differences from 30 years ago, 20 years ago, even 10 years ago. How is the fact that popular frum styles of dress change and evolve relevant?
“and men were thinner.”
Ooh, burn.
“When deciding how to dress, go back to the mitzvahs and authoritative rabbis, not the [bochurim] and yentas.”
Tzitzis – check
No shatnez – check
Head covering – check
Modest, respectable attire – check.Seems like the mitzvos are covered by frum attire. As for authoritative rabbis, the ones I see tend to dress in the frum style. So I’m not sure what to do with this comment either.
DovidBT,
“Can tefillin that’s kept in a car get damaged due to hot temperatures during the daytime?”
Most definitely. Heat is one of the worst things for tefillin.
“Does placing them in an insulated container avoid or reduce the problem?”
It can, if the insulation is sufficient to keep the temperature inside the container down.
“If an ice pack is also in the container, will that make it worse by causing condensation?”
An ice pack might be a good idea, but the tefillin should be contained in a waterproof bag so the ice pack stays separate.
Dr. Pepper,
“Oh- and to your last point- I would love it if they would do that. … I actually like that idea!”
Would you really? Because the big elephant in the room of US medical “care” is the pharmaceutical industry, and quitting smoking and jogging doesn’t net them any profits. So it’s much, much more likely that taking ever increasing medications and vaccines will be the coercion of choice. And suppose a mandatory exercise program was instituted – how would it be enforced/verified? Would people have to submit logs and time sheets to their insurer? Mandated exercise classes with videos on like in 1984?
Dr. Pepper,
Thanks for those details. I didn’t understand previously how parts of the ACA were favoring large companies at the expense of smaller, and I concur with AAQ’s take as well.
“25% of all claims being preventable amounts to hundreds of billions of Dollars. That’s huge. I see that number sky rocketing if all health care becomes free- people will take more risks knowing that it won’t financially cost them anything”
I do think the study cast too wide of a net when defining “preventable”, but yes human behavior does add to the cost. Projects meant for humans should take human behavior into account. If someone built a stairway that had constant bottlenecks, and they complained and said “if only the crowds did this this and that things would move swiftly!” I’m going to blame the stairway builder for poor design before I blame the people for being people.
“yet that teacher is making $100,000 and you take a teacher from a nearby Yeshiva with the same years of experience, training and certification who’s pulling in $50,000 a year”
In my state (one of the most politically “blue” in the US), the median income of a public school teacher is around $58,000 a year. The 90th percentile (meaning only 10% of teachers make this amount or more) is around $82,000 a year.
“This may not sound like a big deal to you”
Actually, it does.
ubiquitin,
“OK so support Medicare for all who do take care of their health (or at least try) . Exclude smokers, require exercise , I said a few times if thts what it would take to get you on board I’m in
In that case do we agree?”
Aaand there’s the coercion. Nope, I don’t agree. Medicare for all should be Medicare for all. Pay the healthcare costs and let the citizenry live their lives.
Dr. Pepper,
“they created a system that was mathematically guaranteed to fail and the states need to follow it.”
We’re over a decade into the ACA, are we still on a trajectory to fail? What does the failure look like?
“I got to see lots of this stuff first hand during the year that I worked in the ACA and it was pathetic to think that someone actually thought it would work. Most of the stuff is too complicated to discuss here”
Try us. I want to know what you saw, and can handle some complexity and ask follow-up questions if I don’t understand. I don’t find the appeal to authority argument to be convincing.
“take a look at the Risk Corridor 2014 payments catastrophe to begin getting an idea. (In short, despite promising that it’ll be paid out at 100% it was paid out at only 12.6% and many companies were shut down because of that.)”
As far as I’m aware, the risk corridor payments only existed in the first couple of years of the ACA to stabilize the markets and prevent companies from jacking up premiums in response to the uncertainty. Is that not the case? I agree that the initial rollout of the ACA was a debacle (except apparently in Connecticut).
“Public Schools (the ones that I’m referring to) are a huge disaster as they waste hundreds of billions of Dollars and have little to nothing to show for it.”
Exhibit A: NYC. Maskim.
“I believe that the same will be true if the healthcare system turns into a single payer system. In short- I was referring to the hundreds of billions of Dollars that will be wasted- regardless of who pays for it or how it’s paid.”
Do you see Medicare as a big pile of waste?
“I consider a huge salary to include those who work for unions and are getting paid much more than they would be getting if they were paid the going rate- especially the public-school teachers that have nothing to show for it.”
What’s the going rate for a teacher?
“Regardless of who is at blame, who caused it, weather you believe it or not or the amount spent on each age group- the point is that hundreds of billions of Dollars is wasted every year on preventable claims. That number needs to come down before a single payer system can work.”
A Lancet study using 84 supposedly preventable risk factors determined that preventable illness accounted for just over a quarter of the health costs in the U.S. That is indeed very high, but how does it make a single payer system impossible? Medicare already fields perhaps the majority of these costs, as things like heart disease, diabetes, emphysema, and cancer tend to strike more frequently later in life. These are the heavy hitters in healthcare costs, not Billy Bob having to go back to the doctor because he didn’t finish his entire 5 day course of antibiotics.
Now, I sound like I am advocating strongly for a government run single payer health insurance in the U.S. In reality, I am really not sure that I’d support one. But not because of the costs. I worry more about coercion, reduced options, and a UK NHS style breakdowns of service.
n0mesorah,
“Sitting in an office and by a computer, is less up and about than the stay-at-home-wife, who has an outing with the kids on Sunday, meets friends for lunch on Monday, local shopping on Tuesday, mall shopping on Wednesday, and Shabbos shopping on Thursday.”
Just curious if you have ever met any “stay at home” mothers?
Dr. Pepper,
“you’re advocating for the US Government, who failed miserably at the ACA, to be in charge of a single payer system. You need to explain why you think the same US Government could successfully run something of a much larger magnitude.”
So the US Government does not “run” the ACA. The ACA is a conglomeration of laws that primarily expanded eligibility for Medicaid, forbade insurance companies from denying coverage based on pre-existing conditions, and mandated individuals to have medical insurance coverage. You might be thinking of the disastrous rollout of the online individual insurance marketplaces. Agreed that was truly bad. The blame can be spread around (some states set up their own awful exchanges, others relied on the Federal Government’s), but it was a failure to coordinate resources, share knowledge, and test systems before going live. A slight limmud zechus is that these state and Federal agencies had not put something together like that before, whereas Medicare has been a humming beast for decades.
“I mentioned a few times that a single payer system will turn into a calamity the size of the public school disaster.”
Public schools are not a single payer entity. The majority of their governance comes from the local and state levels of government.
“All this while the teachers (some of them who have no business being around children but are protected by the powerful unions) are bringing in huge salaries.”
I’d hate to see what you consider a meager salary.
“With a single payer free health care for all, you’re going to have people who don’t take care of their (or their kids’) health, don’t follow doctors directions and end up costing the system billions of Dollars in unnecessary expenses while clogging up doctors’ offices, hospitals and emergency rooms.”
…
“As mentioned previously, Medicare works because it’s for a more responsible part of the population”
So blaming the citizenry for the sorry state of affairs may feel good (politicians used to not dare try it, but now they love to so long as they can tar their targets with the opposite political affiliation), but it’s just simply not true. Health care expenditures are higher for young children, then drop quite low through early adulthood (with higher expenses for childbearing women), and then increase along an exponential curve once you get older. Per HHS statistics, your superior responsible adults aged 65+ accrue an annual average of more than $11,000 per year, vs. near $3000 per year for the horrible no good rotten 18-44 age group (which even includes most of those childbearing women getting harassed into expensive hospital interventions).
Yserbius123,
“I’ve addressed most of your comments”
No you haven’t. The only point you addressed was to acknowledge that “every community has kids at risk” (though kids assaulting a storekeeper are way beyond “at risk”). Other than that, you have failed to address my responses and have only repeated your shtus again and again.
“However, there is a huge factor contributing to kids at risk in some communities that they refuse to address: Namely the “Only Gemara and Halacha” mesivtas.”
Since you’re only repeating yourself, I won’t waste a bunch of words again. You’re making this up based on your MO prejudices against Lakewood.
“And I have to disagree with you one one point. I think that people are people. Individually, thinking and intelligent, but in large groups they have a tendency to make huge mistakes then rationalize it.”
I think you’re trying to teach me about groupthink, but not defining or describing it very well. Are you sure that individual ideas in Lakewood are being squelched, or do they just not like the ideas you think are great?
n0mesorah,
“But if somebody would just put out alerts without really knowing what is behind them, we absolutely should ding them for not having the clarity of the Star-K’s approach. This is my opinion. You can disagree with me on this scenario as well as the smartphones.”
I think how I see the scenario is closer to when laypeople forward on or talk about the Star-K alerts they received, not laypeople developing the alerts themselves. I don’t think, for example, that the technology asifa a number of years ago was done haphazardly.
“The fellow responded, the longer I keep you here the better. Because when you leave beis medrash, you”ll be looking at your smartphone”
Was this fellow a teenager or young adult? What he did sounds immature, or more likely in jest.
“What bothers me is that a lot of people think that there is some truth to the retort.”
I don’t think so, especially in the mature adult world.
“It still seems like it is presented backwards to Yeshiva Bachurim”
This seems like a salient point.
Yserbius123,
“And why didn’t it work specifically in Lakewood in the 21st century? Every other city, country (besides Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel), and time period in the post-Holocaust world strongly encouraged it.”
So do you agree that the NYT-led crusade against Yeshivos in NY (Lakewood is in NJ) is completely baseless?
“It’s an ideological thing, plain and simple. A silly, misguided, ideology that people have fooled themselves into thinking is Torah.”
So you feel intellectually and morally superior to those “Lakewood” Jews. It’s not true, but whatever. If you have an interest in convincing someone, however, talking down to them from a place of disdain usually isn’t the way to go about it. I personally think that Jews living in Lakewood are thinking and intelligent human beings who know themselves and their community, their values, hopes, dreams, and fears better than you do.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Our times seems to be the first in history where [some] Jews are claiming that their mesorah is to be willfully ignorant.”
This is motzi shem ra.
Yserbius123,
“It just goes back to what I’ve been saying this entire time. Teens in certain communities that do not enjoy learning Gemara don’t relish the two choices placed before them: Learn Gemara (the thing you’re bad at and don’t like at all) for the better part of a 10 hour day or be a failure. So they act out. It’s as simple as that.”
Repeating it endlessly does not make it true. A LOT more is going on with a kid who descends into drugs and violent behavior than struggling in school. And your insistence that violent teenagers is only a Lakewood (aka Chareidi) issue does a disservice to the entire discussion. It’s simply dishonest, and is more a commentary on who you hate than on how to actually help kids.
n0mesorah,
“I think that saying, I got rid of my smartphone is only half of a success story. I got rid of my phone and am smore available for my family, I got rid of my phone and am learning more, I got rid of my phone and my davening improved, is something I can get behind.”
Ooh, I think maybe we’ve distilled the discussion down to the fundamental disagreement. I think if someone gives up their smartphone or puts safeguards onto it because of Hashem – i.e., out of a desire to avoid sinning, that in itself is a tremendous accomplishment. A single Jew standing up to the armies of the tech companies who are besieging his home, and winning against them all. I don’t think I’m exaggerating – in pirkei avos we learn אֵיזֶהוּ גִבּוֹר, הַכּוֹבֵשׁ אֶת יִצְרוֹ, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: טוֹב אֶֽרֶךְ אַפַּֽיִם מִגִּבּוֹר, וּמוֹשֵׁל בְּרוּחוֹ מִלֹּכֵד עִיר! Of course we should never rest on our laurels, and should put the newfound free time away from the devices into proper use, but that’s a separate discussion.
“But the populism of the movement is just emphasizing getting rid of the smartphone.”
I’m still not clear on what “the movement” is, but so what? Should we ding the kashrus alerts from the Star-K because they only tell us to avoid mislabeled product X and don’t also exhort us to learn more and spend quality time with our children? I think it’s a double standard you’re applying to “the movement” because you don’t like their message.