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Health,
If your goal is to advocate for the frum population to make a healthier lifestyle (e.g., healthier eating habits and increased exercise), it would be good salesmanship to avoid anything that may sound like a knock against frum culture.
Also, I think the ads you mention skew more towards younger people because their deaths R”L are usually unexpected, and therefore there is a higher chance that there wasn’t a completed plan of support for their dependents. I don’t think we can derive statistics from those ads. Also, the causes of death cited in those ads tend to be things like cancer or accidents, not obesity related disease.
zahavasdad,
“There is definatly not a trend to eat more veggies , especially green ones. Alot of Shabbos food is grease and fat which is unhealthy.”
So start one! Invite guests for Shabbos and knock their socks off with delicious foods packed with green vegetables and whole grains. Brag about the health benefits. Share the recipes.
“How many frum people even play pickup basketball or Raquetball which are healthy exercises”
How many Christians walk to church on Sunday? Why limit the options to things that may not be the best cultural fit for the frum community?
akuperma,
Just because things were worse in previous generations does not mean we should accept the status quo now if there is a problem. We believe that every life is precious, so if there is a way to save or improve even one life, why would we sit back and say, well, at least it’s not a thousand lives like it used to be!
And if someone calls avoda zara by a different name it does not make it not avoda zara.
Chabadshlucha,
“again Im being misunderstood. I wrote that the Rebbe is human in the very line you quoted”
Yet you beseech him “not as a human.” Just because I do not accept what you are writing does not mean that I misunderstand.
“My emotions deep within me
I can only turn to you”Rachmana litzlan
mik5,
When I daven mincha at my office, if possible, I will block out a 15 minute period on the calendar for a small and private meeting room. If I don’t have a reservation, I opt to daven in the break room rather than my cubicle, because people may stop by my cubicle with questions, raising the chance of interruption.
In your case, the lounge might be the best bet, even though it’s probably not a quiet place. If the lounge does not work, I’d speak to a friendly faculty or staff member, or even a security guard. More often than not they are delighted to help, and their solution might be much better than a stairwell. At my first job location, my start time was too early to make shacharis with a minyan. I spoke to a colleague who managed the office IT equipment, and he pointed me to an IT storage room that almost nobody went into except for him. He jokingly called it “the synagogue” after that.
What are we talking about?!?
Who says it’s ok?!?
5ish,
I talk to my mother in law too, I talk to my boss too
On the telephone or in person I’m sure, not whispers in your heart while no other person is with you.
why are you so bothered by who people are talking to???
Because Chabadshlucha is part of my spiritual family, and I am alarmed by some of the things I have read. Her “I talk … directly to Hashem too” comment was specifically a follow-up to this:
“When we ask the Rebbe for help, were not asking him as a human. That would be wrong as we only ask Hashem for things like the Rambam says. Were asking Hashem, through his human messenger”
Whether you like it or not, the Rebbe was a human, and this statement is dangerously wrong. It is identical in every way shape and form to Christian theology, where J-man is claimed to be perfect (conquered his yetzer hara), a manifestation of G-d’s “word” on Earth (chas veshalom), and that, by praying to him, one is not praying to a human, but praying to G-d, “in J-man’s name.” 2000 years ago the Jews objected to this, and were denigrated as Pharisees obsessed with the “Law” and blind to the “Truth.” Now the term “Misnagdim” is hurled at the non-believers. Villains who act, not because they have genuine, deeply held beliefs, but because they hate and are jealous of the “true believers”, and seek to tear them down. 2000 years of bloodshed against the Jews arose from this type of accusation. Do we really want to walk down that road again?
Guess what? I don’t hate Chabad. I owe Chabad tremendous hakaras hatov, and have given sustained financial support. This thread has shaken me to the core.
Chabadshlucha,
“Just to clarify I talk plenty throughout my day directly to Hashem too.”
What do you mean by “too”?
“And since people keep bringing it up, lhavdil elef havdalos, the other guy was no tzadik at all and also held himself to be his own SEPARATE power than Hashem. That’s avoda zara.”
No, they claim he was “G-d in the flesh”, chas veshalom, which is frighteningly similar to your arguments here. This whole conversation has been quite disturbing.
The little I know,
You wrote: “Absolutely everything that is done in the way of chinuch must be focused on bringing about the desired result of the child’s learning“, to which I replied, “Phrased another way, the ends justify the means? And only a navi can foretell the actual ends.“.
I misread your sentence (interpreted “that is done” as “must be done”), and retract my response.
The little I know,
“In a few of your comments, you have labeled me something that I am not. Whether this fits the technicality of מכנה שם לחבירו or not is not the issue.”
Nonetheless, you wrote it, so please clarify what you mean. I have had no intention of labeling you with anything. There are some elements of the parenting philosophy you presented here that I have taken strong objection to, just like you have taken strong objection to the “pronouncement of the Satmar dayanim.”
“If imposing will on him just makes him rebel, then we need to find another option.”
Not everything is in the control of the parent, including whether the kid rebels or not. And there are limits on what we can and should do in our attempt to prevent rebellion. That doesn’t mean we don’t love the child, or that we are rejecting the child.
“But his acting out from his personal pain does not designate him as an apikores either.”
I never wrote that it did, and I would appreciate it if you stopped implying that that is my position.
“At the wrong time, it does not convey a message of direction but a set of criteria to earn punishment.”
You’ve written this multiple times, and I have disagreed multiple times. Maintaining boundaries and meting out punishment are not the same thing. If someone is breaking things in my house and I call the police, I am not punishing him, I am protecting my house.
“Absolutely everything that is done in the way of chinuch must be focused on bringing about the desired result of the child’s learning”
Phrased another way, the ends justify the means? And only a navi can foretell the actual ends.
“But the kid needs to hear it as a boundary, not a criterion for punishment or tolerance. Hashem’s love for Klal Yisroel was ever present even after the חטא העגל. That needs to be our role model for how to love.”
Go back and read Sefer Bamidbar and tell me that klal Yisroel never felt that they were being punished, or that their rebellious behavior was tolerated, or that Hashem continually changed His approach with the goal of preventing rebellion. How does the long golus we find ourselves in fit with your philosophy? I don’t think the Torah narrative supports your position, and you continue to misrepresent mine by implying that I somehow support a complete rejection of a child or the withdrawal of love.
zahavasdad,
“16 year old kids can get part time jobs”
If a 16 year old can get himself a job, pay for his own phone, Internet, etc., then zei gezunt. He’s not going to sit in his parents’ home and whine about how their Shabbos restrictions crimp his style. He’s going to blow out of there at age 18 and graduate summa cum laude from somewhere. The vast majority of these OTD type discussions center around kids who still have quite a bit of dependence on their parents, but chafe at the rules of the home.
zahavasdad,
“You can get unlimited Data on many plans for about $50 a month and just turn your phone into a hot spot. it doenst cost $100 a month.”
Yeah, those Verizon offers look really good, don’t they? I’m talking about the bill. But whatever.
“The problem is you keep asking a Kasher of a Maaser”
I think you have misunderstood my points, and have responded to the least important part of my post and completely ignored the most important. If the “kid” is choosing between hanging with friends and watching entertainment he supplies himself on Friday night, it is unlikely his shomer Shabbos parents’ blessing on TV watching will make much of a difference in his plans. My harping on the difficulties of setting up these activities serves only to demonstrate the independence that this “kid” already wields.
“Whenever I bring up some clearly Unshabbosdick activity you can you will shut off the router or the 4G costs too much.”
I’m sorry, I probably didn’t make my reasoning for writing those responses clear. The reason I keep mentioning the difficulties in acquiring these “unshabbosdik” activities is to show that we’re not really talking about a “kid” here, but rather a young adult. Let’s make a deal – you stop placing a hypothetical adult into my home and calling him a child, and I’ll stop pointing out how your hypotheticals require adult skills to accomplish.
“(Kids arent stupid, they probably know more than you and can defeat any roadblock you put in front)”
It’s sad to me that you think that by simply not providing something, that is a “roadblock.” No wonder so many young people have a sense of entitlement that is completely out of whack with the real world.
“Maybe the kid has a job to pay for things like their phone (Dont make a Kasher of a Maaser what kind of job and you can stop him from working)”
So again, we’re talking about an adult here. Not a child.
“I never advocated doing it in the living room, Obviosuly you tell the kid to go upstairs and watch in their room quietly”
Then why on earth are you arguing with me? You should be arguing with TLIK, because according to him, by telling the kid to go upstairs, you are rejecting him and causing him horrible pain and driving him off the derech. No watching in the living room on Shabbos is a <shudder>boundary</shudder>.
zahavasdad,
“Is the following an incentive or harm reduction. On friday night, the kid says I am going to hang out with my friends (And you know that means activities including smoking pot) or I am going to watch TV (Or Netflix or whatever).”
That’s a very unusual statement for a child to make. Would he really base his decision on what to do that evening based on my “permission” to watch TV or Netflix or whatever? Probably not. If the kid really wants to hang out with friends, would TV dissuade him? And if he really wants to watch TV, is this whole hang-out setup a threat of some sort? This doesn’t strike me as a realistic conversation.
And the specific boundary I’m talking about that TLIK thinks is so horrendous is disturbing the oneg Shabbos of the house – I don’t want a TV or laptop or whatever in my living room, in view of the rest of the household, for example. I’m not suggesting forcing a kid with his own 4G data plan to sing zemiros at my table, nor doing searches of his belongings.
“Which do you choose? Is it really an incetive to let them watch TV (Or Netflix on their ipad with 4g that you cannot control with the router) or harm reduction”
Sure sounds like an incentive to me – incentives and harm reduction are not mutually exclusive. I’d be interested in the age the child in this example is, in your mind. A quick price check on an iPad with an unlimited data plan (needed if the kid is going to stream endless Netflix over 4G) came in at around $100 per month – nothing to sneeze at. And that doesn’t include a phone,/phone line/taxes, etc. Netflix is $8 to $14 per month. We might be talking about a monthly entertainment cost of $150-$200 here. Where’s the dough coming from?
The little I know,
The matter at hand was a generalization that all OTD kids are to be permanently rejected, zero kiruv, and no possibility of teshuvah
No, that’s not the matter at hand. This position which you attribute to Satmar dayanim represents an extreme that both of us agree is not correct. Your persistence in refuting it in response to my posts does nothing to respond to what I have written, therefore it seems to me like nothing more than a straw man. I am raising two objections about the parenting philosophy that you have introduced on this thread, which I believe goes to the unhealthy opposite extreme of the so-called Satmar philosophy:
1. Lack of boundaries in the home. So far you have responded using a series of lengthy feints – either re-characterizing reasonable boundaries in the home as restrictive or punitive rules on the child (which they are not), or making it sound like you agree about the importance of boundaries, but then justifying their removal. This is dangerous and destructive both for the child in question and the home. Responding by telling me again how bad the “Satmar” extreme is does not address this.
2. A setup that seems to incentivize going OTD, particularly for families with more than one child. You can chastise my intelligence or stability for bringing this question up all you want, but it’s a legitimate issue and you have failed to address it. GAON offered his own response, and I responded to him as well, which you can read above if you want.
If you want to say let’s agree to disagree, I’m fine with that. But I don’t want my position misrepresented in the process.
josh2336,
“Multiple independent studies of GMOs done in France,
UK, and now Russia confirm, that GMOs cause sterility in the third generation of those mammals that consume them.”If this is so, it should be fairly simple to cite such a study. Can you provide the title of such a study, and the publication? Thanks!
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“99% sure this is a troll thread”
Agreed.
“When Gregor Mendel changed color of pea pods by moving pollen from one type of pea plant to another (the same way bees do), the resulting plant is technically a genetically modified organism.”
Not true – that is cross-pollination, or cross-breeding, and does not fall under the GMO rubric. GMOs are produced through genetic engineering (direct manipulation of the genes of an organism) or transgenic techniques (artificial transfer of genes from one organism to another – doesn’t necessarily even have to be the same species). Neither technique can happen naturally.
GAON,
“Of course it all depends on the “good kid” as well. i.e. if the fact that he didn’t get his breakfast is by no way effecting anything in the long run”
Absent having prophecy, there is no way for anyone to know this.
“if the “bad brother” would be ‘physically’ ill and needs extra care etc. and the well brother needs the exact above scenario – is the above excuse legit? No doubt, you can absolutely tell him: “sorry your breakfast money went toward your brother’s meds etc”.”
I would never tell a child that I cannot provide something for him because of his brother’s medical condition. And if you respond that I can do the same by the OTD brother’s support, au contraire. Disparities in material support and attention given among siblings is way more concrete and apparent to children than medical support stressing an entire family’s resources. And the siblings can see (and be reminded) that the medical condition was not the sick child’s choice to have, and the suffering R”L is more visible. Even if the OTD child faced nisayonos in his life or has a personality disorder of some sort, he is in control of his choices.
Furthermore, I dispute the notion that unconditional support for a child’s choices (note I did not say unconditional love) is ever an advisable course of action. I have never encountered a parenting philosophy that presents that as a good idea, outside of this “twisted” parenting as presented in this thread.
“Now of course each and every case is different and needs to be guided and diagnosed properly, if that is indeed the case of the “bad” kid.”
I agree.
The little I know,
“Your discussion of the two brothers was neither rational nor stable.”
You really don’t have a good response for how to handle the issue my example brought up, do you? Otherwise, you would discuss it rationally and without so much ad hominem. I did employ some satire in making the point, but the point is 100% valid and reasonable, and if you want people to accept or consider your “twisted” philosophy, it would do you well to address it.
“That is one way of making a point when there is not one to make.”
You may wish there is not a point, but there is – and it is to the peril of your “twisted” philosophy to not address it.
“Much of your commenting has been rational, whether I agreed with you or not.”
This is written like a compliment, but it is nothing but a bullying technique. I do not fear losing your supposed respect for my intellect, so it won’t work. The only thing you have shown is that your philosophy lacks resilience to a fairly basic question.
“When I address the tolerance of the wayward kid, I never insinuated that we should withdraw support from a good kid for the OTD one. Your insinuation was a bizarre extension of my message.”
Finally ,an actual response.
Exhibit A: “concentration of chinuch efforts on the child who is acting out, even if that means to scatter the other children to live with other family and friends”
Exhibit B: “Rav Elyoshiv told a mother to move her other 8 children out of the home to concentrate on the one who was acting out”
Exhibit C: “Whatever amount of money you usually give your kids – give this child DOUBLE!”
Exhibit D: “Send all of the other children out of the house and give THIS CHILD ALL of your attention!”
C and D are attributed to the Divrei Yoel without sourcing and without context. Which makes them just as dangerous as referencing Yitzchak and Yishmael or Yakov and Eisav to justify throwing a child out of the house. My objection follows directly from statements such as these, and they need to be addressed if you want to honestly present your philosophy.
The little I know,
“Your comment is neither accurate nor responsible.”
Which comment are you referring to?
“I thought your intellect was above that.”
Instead of an unproductive veiled insult, why don’t you explain how whatever comment I made was inaccurate or irresponsible? I’m a bit surprised to see this type of response from someone preaching love and infinite tolerance.
“Sorry, but I am in the know on this. I stated fact, not some bizarre idea/accusation.”
Joseph is trolling, but your response is an appeal to authority fallacy. This is the anonymous Internet, and you have not been crowned king.
The little I know,
Explain to me how your “twisted” philosophy doesn’t incentivize acting out and going off the derech.
Brother 1: “Mom, can I have $20 so I can go to a ball game on Saturday?”
Mom: “Here’s $400 – go buy yourself a TV so you can watch the game here at home and not go out.”
Brother 2: “Mom, can I have $20 so I can grab breakfast after Shacharis?”
Mom: “Sorry dear, I gave all my cash to your brother so he can buy a TV so he doesn’t drive on Shabbos. He’s acting out, so he’s more important than you right now”
Brother 2: “Hmm…”The little I know,
“Our real questions should be, What will work?”
I agree, keeping in mind that parents are responsible for themselves and every child.
“How much compromise is appropriate?”
Also known as boundaries. A rose by any other name…
Me12345,
“I’m sorry of this comes across as harsh and it only most cases not all. Most otd teens went off because of their parents. Because the parents didn’t do their job to correctly get to know their child until it’s too late!”
Your words did not sound harsh at all – I think you expressed yourself clearly and politely. And I think you made some very good points. It’s crucial for parents to remain connected to their children, and the culture in which we find ourselves is not conducive to that, so parents have to consciously and actively connect. One point: OTD teens go off because they decide to go off. They can point to their parents as reasons to justify their decision, but at the end of the day it is a choice they did not have to make.
The little I know,
Now let’s explore the reality of this issue.
And thus you prepare your rhetorical escape hatch.
I noted earlier than boundaries, to be effective, must be taught, not imposed. I want the guardrails on the highway to serve as a visual cue to maintain the proper direction of my car.
Agreed.
To create a guardrail that one will continually ram, even if it effectively blocked the vehicle from exiting the highway, is not a boundary, but a barrier.
This is nonsensical. If my car is continually ramming a barrier, it’s not because the highway administration randomly put a guardrail up for my car to crash into. It’s because my car is veering off the road.
My kids need to be happy in my home
My kids need to be safe, nourished, nurtured, loved, and prepared for adulthood in my home. G-d willing most of the time they will also be happy, but there will be times that they are not. And in those situations it is my role as a parent to help them to respond positively to adversity and not always getting what they want. Not to do whatever I can to make them happy. That’s not a recipe for raising well adjusted and high functioning adults who are prepared for the real world.
Boundaries need to be taught, where the kids learn what is right and wrong, what is good or not.
I agree 100%.
I suggest that a great many OTD situations involve problems with this process, having been done incorrectly, or in a manner that was not effective.
I think there are cases where that is true. I think, unfortunately, that the majority of OTD issues arise within the influence of a toxic peer culture that directs kids to look to each other for guidance, not their parents. Children instinctively look for a single authority – see how upset they become if there is a disparity between what they are taught in school and what their parents say. If a child’s peers become his authority, then his resilience towards his parents shrinks considerably. Parents and children are not angels and will make mistakes, and in a normal world parent and child should be able to reconnect lovingly following a rupture. But when their world is filled with disrespectful teenage role models, connection becomes far more difficult.
Now that the kid is acting out, now we are going to impose boundaries.
Nope – just because a kid is acting out does not mean that all boundaries become magically transformed to newly imposed and punitive.
This does not work. This imposition of boundaries is a parallel with rejection, because that’s the only message. Sure, the situation is frustrating. I freak when my toddler grandchildren discover a light switch they can reach. No one wants chilul Shabbos in their home. But the fight is futile, and carries major risk, in short term and long term.
If rebellious teenagers decided to write a book on parenting teenagers, it’d probably read like this.
We may have done a great job at teaching boundaries to all our children. But if, for whatever reason, it did not work with this one child, I have an obligation to accomplish that teaching in a way that will be effective. That is the OTD kid. Not necessarily bad parents. Just the failure to match the right parenting skills needed for that kid.
And whoosh – out the escape hatch you go. Boundaries are good, but only if you “teach” them beforehand, and it’s almost impossible to teach them all beforehand. And now they’ll just be viewed as punitive. So…
Getting kind of long… -33
zahavasdad,
Who said you bought a TV, I just said they were watching TV (Or Netflix) an 18 year can have their own money and spend as they want. They could have a TV or netflix that you did not purchase
That’s 100% true. As the manager of the house, however, I have a say about what items are allowed into the house, where they are allowed to be used, and I also manage the WiFi password and settings. If devices connected to the WiFi are causing upsetting disruptions to the Shabbos peace in the home, the WiFi may need to be unplugged from Friday afternoon until Saturday night. If there is no apparent disruption, I don’t see a need to add an additional task to the Friday checklist of stuff to do. At the end of the day, what boundaries I choose to set should be based on maximizing everyone’s health and safety, including the “OTD” child, and the choice would involve extensive thought and discussions with a rav very familiar with my family. And I’m certainly willing to talk everything through with a family counselor, to make sure that everyone feels heard and understood. I would hope that I would have sought outside resources long before the situation reaches such a point.
I’m curious how far you think this right of a child to do whatever he wants in your house, nyah nyah nyah, goes. Would you allow a child to just go and buy a cat and bring it into your house no matter what you think? What if you or one of your other children was allergic to cats? Would you let him commit crimes from within your house? Also, would you think restrictions on Netflix or phone usage would be so unreasonable if, instead of Shabbos, we were talking about overnight usage before a school day? Should your 16 year old be allowed to tappity tap all night on a phone and sleep through class the next day?
A non shomer shabbat kid is going to do something Mechalal Shabbos either in front of you or behind your back
I am not a TSA agent and my home is not an airport security checkpoint. At the end of the day, however, I am responsible for everyone’s physical, emotional, and spiritual safety in the home.
and what if the kid says to you I am going to watch a movie on Netflix and if you dont agree , I am going “somewhere else”. No he wasnt Mechalel shabbos in your house, he was Mechalal shabbos elsewhere
Sounds like a child with serious perspective and maturity issues. If we’re talking about an adult child, I cannot stop him, and I’d remind him that we love him and are always here for him, and he’s always welcome. If it’s a minor child – the home is not a prison, but since we are responsible for his safety and well being, we expect him back at so-and-so a time. And if I have reason to be concerned about his safety and I cannot find him, I will call the police.
Curious1000,
Second, without basing anything on evolution there is no reason to call chickens dinosaurs.
Why? It’s just simple categorization. If we had never seen a chicken, but instead found a chicken fossil, it’d be categorized as an avian dinosaur.
Rand0m3x,
That’s “Canada goose.”
Thanks!
zahavasdad,
Its much harder to make rules on children over 18 as you really dont have any leverage on them, they can just leave.
Why would I want to have “leverage” over my 18 year old child? That doesn’t seem like a healthy way to relate at all. And why are we treating adult children like they are immature teenagers?
I am guessing many people feel its better for their OTD child to be home friday night watching TV or surfing the web than hanging out on the streets and doing who knows what.
This seems like a false dilemma, because there is a whole continent of scenarios between being at home on a Friday night and being “on the street”. Also, I would certainly not disallow a child from my home because he doesn’t keep Shabbos, G-d forbid. At the same time, as the manager of a shomer Shabbos home, I can expect that no phones should be seen out and about. And as far as television, there would need to be a television in the home for there to be television watching. I’m not planning to buy one, and I don’t feel guilty about that.
I cant speak for anyone here, but if someone threw out their OTD kid for not dressing properly, using nivel peh and being Mechalel Shabbos and eating treif
So here you are not even responding to me anymore, because I have never suggested throwing a child out of the house for any reason.
and that kid went out and did Heroin and ODed and died , I dont know how many could forgive themselves
I don’t know about you, but my home is NOT a halfway house, and I am in no way equipped to respond appropriately to a serious drug abuse problem. If I think I can counter substance abuse with a warm embrace and an “everything goes” policy under my roof, I would not only be an enabler, I would be putting my child and everyone else in the home in serious danger. What if that kid G-d forbid ODed in his room, and a younger sibling found him in the morning? Or the dealer comes by the house to collect on his debts?
The little I know,
You have drawn a parallel between absence of boundaries and rejection.
No I haven’t. I asserted that you drew a parallel between boundaries and rejection. And yes, they are definitely not the same.
The ultimate rejection, which is what the Satmar publication advocates is something I will never accept. Neither would the Divrei Yoel, and countless other rabbonim and gedolim.
I understand that it might be easier to swing your bat at the “Satmar publication” straw man than respond to my position, but it really does not further the conversation, because I am in no way advocating for the “Satmar publication” position as you present it (I have not seen anything about it myself).
And, no, I do not have any “straw” gedolim. I presented enough references from seforim to review and see the statements in print. And there are other seforim I have not yet seen.
I understand and have seen your references. What I am suggesting is that the sources you have brought state A,. And you are arguing that since A is true than B must follow. And I am disputing your B, not the point A.
A = A parent should always love and embrace his child and not reject him completely.
B = Boundaries are good in theory, but if a child has problems with boundaries, the boundaries should fall by the wayside, because it’s not loving or accepting to make a child with boundary issues face boundaries.
RebYidd23,
I second The little I know. You speak truth.
The little I know,
I get that you are trying to convince everyone that today’s “OTD” children are not in the category of baal aveira/sinner/kofer/heretic/whatever who would need to be rejected halachically. I believe, however, that there is a big disparity between the philosophy you advocate here “in the name” of the gedolim and what the gedolim would actually hold. You argue that boundaries should be set in theory, unless they – heaven forbid – make the child feel rejected, because the child’s feelings trump parental boundaries. You then bring numerous anecdotes of gedolim advising parents to not kick their children out of the house. Nothing in these anecdotes show that the gedolim told the parents to remove all boundaries in their homes, to remove any rule that might offend the child’s delicate sensibilities. Taken the way you present it, a child can hold his parent hostage on any boundary. “You don’t love me because you won’t give me ice cream for supper!” If, therefore, boundaries and love cannot coexist, and love is paramount, then boundaries must go.
I agree with you that a parent should always demonstrate to his child that he loves him, will always love him, desires to support him, and will not give up on him. Connection – not commands. This is not the same as having no boundaries. Parents who have no boundaries are not parents. They are avoiders and negligent.
Me? No.
The little I know,
HaRav Yankele Pshevorsk zy”a gave similar advice to a very Chassidishe family whose son brought a shiksa to live with him in their home! His words were: “Give him MORE LOVE and MORE MONEY!”
This is worded very strangely. Did the son bring this woman to live in “their” (i.e., the parents’) home? If so, did Rav Pshevorsk recommend allowing the woman to remain living in the home? Or, more likely, was the son living on his own and intermarried? The response to the latter would be VERY different from the response to the former.
We must replace REECHOK – with KIRRUV!
We must replace REJECTION – with CONNECTION!
We must replace CRITICISM – with COMPLIMENTS!
We must replace JUDGEMENT – with UNDERSTANDING!
We must replace cold negative looks – with warm positive smiles!And all of this can (and must) be done while maintaining proper expectations and boundaries.
Takes2-2tango,
Thank you for responding again in such a nice way.
Personally i can tell u that its the small and almost meaningless thing that tick a boy or girl off, such as making a big deal about hair length , black hat / no hat, dark clothing vs light clothing,s tandard size yamulka vs smaller. wearing rabaynu tam tfillin vs not wearing them.
If I were to take a guess, it was not the “almost meaningless thing”, but rather the “making a big deal about” that provoked the “tick off.”
When i say mundane i mean in the over all picture its mundane on the large chance of losing your child totally.
I don’t think something mundane causes a child to be lost. Something bigger must be going on.
These are for the most part where children start to get frustrated from thier parents in yiddishkiet.
Or frustration with parents gets projected onto Yiddishkeit.
Also many if not most people who are frum by rote confuse halacha with chumra, mesora/ minhogim / vs home made yiddishkiet. First stick to the hardcore halachos and then slow wean onto chumris.
Concentrating on chumros with out doing the halachos properly is a recipe for boys and girls going otd. Same applies to grown adults.So it would seem to me that chumras per se are not the problem, but rather a lack of knowledge or poor chinuch. So rather than throwing out all boundaries, which seems to me like cutting off a leg to heal an arm, we should properly educate ourselves and become better parents and Jews.
Curious1000,
Can we please stop having posted based on evolutionary thought?
I didn’t post anything on evolutionary thought. Do you think there’s no such thing as DNA?
I know that no one here would say that they believe in evolution, but if you don’t then you aren’t having “dinosaur chicken”, it is chicken
I’m not claiming there ever was something called a dinosaur chicken. I’m saying that chickens are dinosaurs. And tasty.
zahavasdad,
but a smart parent knows when to give in and when to give the kid some freedom.
I agree 100%. I try not to be judgemental of other families, however, so I shy away from saying that so-and-so an issue (e.g., wearing a hat) is objectively unreasonable. Another family may think you are unreasonable for not letting your kid fry up bacon in your pan.
Have a wonderful Shabbos!
RebYidd23,
those don’t count. Everyone know what it means to bring dinosaurs to life: the fun, exciting ones. Like T-Rex and Triceratops. Not the boring ones like the dodo.
Get into it with an angry Canadian goose, and you’ll change your opinion quickly. They hiss, strike, have long necks, and pretty terrifying teeth (including on the tongue). Dinosaur.
I’m not a biologist, but I think a lot of traits associated with your fun dinosaurs still exist within the DNA of birds. Genetic engineering , for example, may be able to produce a toothy attack chicken with a sauropod-like tail. But instead of roaring as it rampages through the village, it’ll go bok bok bok bok BWAAAAAK!
zahavasdad,
Things that are minhagim , Strong minhagim no doubt, but not Halacha
I’m not sure how this is relevant. Parents have not only the right, but an obligation to set up boundaries and expectations that are appropriate for their home. These boundaries should be reasonable, and should take into account everyone’s needs, personalities, limitations, etc. It may well be reasonable to expect household minhagim to be respected.
The little I know,
I join you in wishing to establish proper boundaries in the home. Helivai we could manage this.
What do you mean by halevai? If parents are unable to establish proper boundaries in the home, that is an unhealthy and dangerous situation. If parents allowed illegal drugs or underage drinking into their home due to a lack of boundaries, they could find themselves in legal jeopardy. More apropos to our discussion of rebellion against Yiddishkeit, Is it ok for an Orthodox home’s kitchen to be made unkosher because a child is “acting out”?
No one would want their son in a t-shirt and shorts or a girl dressed inappropriately sitting at the Shabbos table.
For cases like these, a discussion among the parents, children, rav, and perhaps a family counselor would be a good idea. Parents cannot pick every single battle, nor would that be a healthy dynamic for anyone. But the home is not a democracy, everyone’s needs are important, and the parents have the responsibility of setting up the boundaries and expectations. Should children be involved in those discussions and their input respected and considered? Absolutely. Should they expect to get everything they want all the time? No.
The question is how do we set boundaries? How do children accept the request? Do they see this as a boundary, or a rule intended to challenge them? Is this just another way of telling them that we don’t want them? Is it a provocation that will result only in their digging their heels in deeper? Is this a form of תוכחה that halacha specifically tells us not to do because it is ineffective?
Boundary setting and tochacha are very different things. If a parent conflates the two, he needs a parenting course. If a child conflates the two, he needs counseling and/or a reality check.
Our מקדש מעט will not be fashioned by the dictating of rules when a child begins acting out.
Dictating is only one way to set boundaries, and probably not the best way in most situations.
Rules? Is that all we need to?
Teenager logic. Just because one discussion is about rules does not mean that everything is about rules.
Dinosaurs are still around, and all around us. Not the larger species, and not the toothed species. But the smaller beaked and winged ones. Iy”H I’m planning to have baked dinosaur with rice and potatoes tonight, and dinosaur schnitzel on Shabbos day.
Takes2-2tango,
Maybe you should learn to read before you spew your hatred towards the OTD world.
I was addressing your post. Not some “OTD world.” And I spewed no hatred, towards you or anyone else. I made an effort to write my post in a respectful manner. You have not afforded me the same courtesy.
I never ever said that hashem doesnt punidh sinners.
You asked rhetorically if we get punished when we sin, and used that as a basis for an argument that we don’t have the right to punish people for sins when Hashem doesn’t (always) punish us. If that wasn’t your point, I apologize, and ask if you could restate it more directly.
Fot you as a human being you have no right to decide whether a person is or is not betraying hashem. Hashem is the only one to know what is in a person head and heart. not you, not a father and not moshe rabenu .
I agree that we cannot know what is in someone else’s heart. However, as we read in Parshas Nitzavim: וְהַנִּגְלֹ֞ת ֹלָֹ֤נוֹּ ֹוֹּלְֹבָֹנֵֹ֨יֹנֹוּ֨ עַד־עוֹלָ֔ם לַֽעֲשׂ֕וֹת אֶת־כָּל־דִּבְרֵ֖י הַתּוֹרָ֥ה הַזֹּֽאת
That said, if you’ve read all of my posts, you’ll find that I never suggested that we should punish a child who is off the derech. The only thing I have said is that parents have a right to set rules and expectations for what goes on in their house. And that they should do so lovingly and carefully.
Until then leave it up to hashem and stop judging people especially people who dress , talk and differently then u. Its people like you who cause kids to off.
That’s a whole lot of unfounded assumptions about me. It is your finger that is pointed in self-righteous judgement of others, not mine.
Takes2-2tango,
To all holier then thous.
Who?
We all agree that hashem is our ultimate father.
When a petson does an avaira publicly or in Private , does hashem throw him to the dogs? Does hashem throw him out of the shul he once davenef in?Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Who are you to decide as a father to disown your son for being a ball avaira.
Whoh, hold the horses there for a minute. Not even Joseph, who’s trolling the thread, has said to disown anyone.
Think very hard before throwing your child out of your house.
I’ve read a lot of discussion in this thread about tolerating or not tolerating certain behaviors in your house, but nothing about throwing a child out. Can you point me to an example?
Just remember. What goes around comes around. Hashem works is very wonderous Ways
So twice in your post you attacked the mysterious “holier than thous” by saying that Hashem doesn’t punish sinners. But now you use Hashem’s vengeance as a threat? Seems ironic.
Joseph,
Yet Halacha l’maaisa today is that we now here in America are deputized to be a Pinchos in our times. Check the local copy of your Shulchan Aruch. The very same S”A that tells us that, today, we are to (physically if necessary) punish wayward Yidden who violate בין אדם למקום.
How about we “check” our living and breathing rabbeim before going off and petching people? They know the Shulchan Aruch a lot better than us, and that is the proper way for a Jew to obtain guidance.
DaasYochid,
No, but that doesn’t mean the troubled teen won’t perceive or treat it as unloving or judgemental.
There comes a point where poor receipt of a message is the child’s problem, not the parent’s. That said, the parent must take great pains to be loving and respectful of the child. Tone and nonverbals can be more powerful than the actual words.
DaasYochid,
I disagree with you on the semantics. Someone who doesnt have a severe disorder is not a “choleh” (shoteh would probably have been the more halachically accurate term) but is in fact a baal aveirah. There’s really no in between.
Point taken, but with the caveat that I would then argue that there are different “degrees” of baal aveirah, and one’s nisayonos plays a role in that.
Haimy,
The question has tremendous ramifications; before we suggest to people to allow chillul Shabbos, Z’nus, tarfus, V’chol dovor assur into their homes in order to maintain a positive relationship with their non-religious child
I don’t accept the premise of this statement. I think it is incumbent on parents to try and maintain a positive relationship with their child. At the same time, as managers of the home, the parents have a right to set rules and expectations for what happens under their roof. Having different beliefs does not make it ok for a child to defy rules or severely disrupt the home.
“This is a kosher kitchen. Please do not bring that food in here.”
“This home is Shabbos observant. We expect everyone here to put cell phones away. It can be used later tonight after havdala.”
Nothing unloving or even judgmental in those statements.
The little I know,
You believe we are discussing baalei aveiroh. I do not. I believe we are discussing a choleh
I think the reality, predictably, is in the middle of these extremes. Can hurtful experiences at the hands of parents and schools help drive a child off the derech who otherwise would have stayed on, R”L? Certainly. At the end of the day, however, in the absence of a severe disorder, a young adult is responsible for his own choices, and cannot endlessly abdicate his responsibility by blaming mommy and daddy, or Rebbe Meany. Hashem gave him those parents and teachers, and yet he is still obligated in the mitzvos.
Chabadshlucha,
Anyway I’m curious where is Tevel today? Any sources address this?
According to Google Maps, it’s in southwestern Hungary, in Tolna County.
Golden nuggets of wisdom,
it’s a matter of menorah. Our parents and grandparents in Europe didn’t light up and therefore neither should we
I think I do have a mesora from my great grandparents in Europe of lighting up a menora.
assurnet,
So something like cannabis doesn’t take you out of a certain state of consciousness that you would naturally be in otherwise but rather pushes you further along in a certain direction along the spectrum.
Altering a changeable variable vs. a fixed variable is still altering. Your psychology reference strengthens the argument against using marijuana. As Jews, we understand that operating in certain parts of the mindfulness “spectrum” as you say is ideal. Torah and mitzvos are intended to push us towards a more centered and long-range viewpoint, where we can see the situation at hand within the context of the idea that we are servants of Hashem, rather than a cork bobbing along in a tempest. Therefore, we should utilize sleep, food, music, etc. to help us get to those beneficial places on the “spectrum”, not let the “spectrum” dictate how we act and perceive the world. Yes our state of mind changes a lot, but we are still responsible for ourselves.
I’ve known some people who tell me they ability to study certain non-religious subjects was greatly enhanced by it.
Ever have a dream where you believe you’ve had an incredible insight, that you’ve figured something amazing out, and then woken up and realized that your idea was a jumble of nonsense? That’s the enhancement of marijuana. It doesn’t make learning better. It makes nonsense look like genius.
But what about something lighter like putting on your headphones and listening to a good shiur?
A good shiur may be relaxing to some, but recreation is not the ikkar of Torah learning.
I’ve personally found that when I contemplate inyanim of kedusha I sometimes get profoundly deeper insights than I would normally get and once I “come off of it” I feel a renewed and deeper appreciation for Hashem and His mitzvas and a stronger desire to fulfill them.
Until your next brownie, where you then lose lots of mitzvah opportunities because you cannot focus on gemara, or cannot drive to visit the sick, or bring food to a family with a newborn, or handle your children with clarity. The yetzer hara is extremely wily.
It’s like packing 500 mussar shmuzes into one hour.
Ridiculous. If 500 mussar shmuzes were on one side of a self-improvement scale, and a bong was on the other, you really think they’d balance out?
I remember reading in an Aryeh Kaplan book or essay that part of the reason we have wine for kiddush on Friday night and Chagim is for the alcohol to help lift up our state of mind to help us better appreciate the kedusha of the special day.
Then why don’t kohanim duchen by Simchas Torah mussaf? Surely their state of mind is lifted to help them better appreciate their people and the flow of bracha that should come to them from Hashem?
But if somebody could use it (again responsibly and in moderation) and potentially maybe even grow in their ovadat Hashem do we still write that off from a Torah perspective?
That’s a big “if”. And not even the big marijuana advocates are silly enough to present arguments like that. They argue for medicinal (pain relief) purposes – that it may be a better choice than opioids, for example, and recreational purposes – that the government inconsistently forbids marijuana as a recreational activity while allowing other activities that may be more harmful.