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sechel83,
“i figured why not keep litvaks busy about there own “minhagim””
Though I may have missed stuff, the debates here have largely not been about “minhagim”. The closest I’ve seen was on another thread with AviraDeArah regarding sleeping in the sukkah. Even that debate wasn’t about actual practice, however, as many Litvaks and other Jews also do not sleep in the sukkah because of discomfort. That debate was about Chabad’s removing the idea of sleeping in the sukkah completely. Rather the debates are more about hashkafa and beliefs, some of which may manifest themselves into certain practices.
“(i know some will answer, that thats “our minhag/ mesora”, ok so why do you guys criticize chabad (for just believing in gemaras, tzadikim) “
I hope you noticed that, despite the insulting premise of your questions, you received unequivocal and non-defensive answers. Challenges and debates are not the same thing as hatred and persecution.
Menachem Shmei,
“Really? Is it the Ashkenazi mesorah for over 200 years ago to shave their beards? When Reb Moshe … rules a chidush, you accept this as Ashkenazi mesorah for generations.”
The Ashkenazi mesora is that trimming beards is ok. Rav Moshe ruled that electric “shavers” are equivalent to very short trimming, not shaving/destroying the beard. So yes, we feel the “chidush” is in line with our mesora. It’s not like electric shavers existed 200 years ago, and Rav Moshe upended generations of rulings on electric shavers. And even if he did, he would have provided his reasoning in a manner so well explained that one could follow the chain of the mesora up to the chidush.
“Yet you mock (in disgusting fashion) the psakim and minhagim of 200 years of the holy Chabad rebbes.”
I do not know what Neville ChaimBerlin was referring to with his comment, but I didn’t feel like he was “mocking”. And honestly that statement was not nice, but it pales in comparison to having fellow Jews serve as the boogeymen of your stories – to ingest enmity as a part of your movement’s hashkafa.
Menachem Shmei,
“It depends. This may be the approach of the more openminded and respectful-of-other-opinions guys. While the more hotblooded my-opinion-is-the-only-opinion guys will rant and rave about the stupidity of those with that opinion, and constantly call them out as crazies.”
Is the literally alive in the flesh really considered a legitimate shita in Chabad? Who then is interred in the ohel? Regarding live and let live, when I was younger, a Chabad synagogue in my area got kicked out of the main organization over a dispute on opening a new Chabad house. The existence of this place was scrubbed from Chabad dot org. Other Chabad houses/rabbis have been ousted over the years for all sorts of reasons, e.g., inviting Yitzchak Rabin to speak, opposing Covid policies, what have you. It seems that Chabad has no qualms about enforcing its preferences up to the point of putting its own shluchim, who have sacrificed much to go into remote locales, into cherem. Why then, when it comes to this issue, does Chabad suddenly become squeamish and “let’s respect everyone’s opinion here”?
“>>>Maybe it’s not so much “denying” the beliefs so much as concealing.
Well said.”
What is the purpose of the concealment?
“Mainly the latter.”
What, in your opinion, is the boundary line between “ridiculous” and avoda zara?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Not eating kitniyos is a minhag, but wearing a hat?! This just got out of hand.”
Lol, black hats are really a stick in your craw, aren’t they? Anyway it was amiricanyeshivish who brought the hats up, and I suspect he feels like you do and was going for irony.
“So, would a person born into a black hat wearing community need a hatara nedarim if he decides to wear his grandfather’s white or gray hat?”
No more than he’d need to if he wanted to wear a blue Union Civil War era jacket instead of a black suit jacket, or a hat with a big feather, or a Napoleon hat, or anything else that differs from the common sartorial choices of the community. If he’s always davened with a hat, however, it may be more of a shaila if he wants to forego a hat completely.
“As to confusion between midrabanan and Torah, isn’t it how we read the story of Adam and Hava making a takono not to _touch_ the grape?”
Off topic – I notice that your transliterated ח’s go from ch to h when you’re in a more trollish mood, I wonder what it means.
On topic – yes and no. Chava’s addition of “we cannot touch it” gave the snake the opportunity to increase the confusion that he started when he initially opened the conversation with the incorrect, “so Hashem said you cannot eat from any of the trees in the garden?” And that’s not the only inaccuracy/addition she had. She also added the term “fruit” to the command, and she said the tree of knowledge was in the center of the garden, whereas we were told previously only that the tree of life was in the center. She desired the fruit both physically and intellectually, and her changes to the description of the tree and the command seem to reflect that desire. When the snake pushed her against the tree and she did not instantly die, she could have thought many things. Hashem didn’t punish me because my touching it was unintentional. Maybe the punishment isn’t instantaneous. Whatever. But instead, she used the confusion as a means to rationalize, and she ate the fruit. Just like someone stealing from a store may rationalize that it’s a victimless crime, they have insurance, whatever. Maybe she was “confused” about some things, but she wasn’t confused about the eating being forbidden. She knew Hashem did not want that.
Neville Chaim Berlin,
“Untrue. He admitted on one of these threads to the belief that Moshiach will be the Rebbe.”
I don’t recall that, but it’s possible. I haven’t been following the ins and outs of all the threads too closely.
“He [seemingly] defended those who believe the Rebbe is alive at the front of 770 after another poster explicitly defended it.”
I didn’t read the “so what” as a defense, but more of a “I’m not responsible for what others believe and do”, which I disagree with. Many people here are arguing that belief in the Rebbe being the Moshiach with deity-like powers or even a deity mamash is a mainstream belief within Chabad, and that some Lubavitchers only make a feint of objection because they know the beliefs are unacceptable to other frum Jews and therefore try to hide the beliefs. I prefer to take what Menachem Shmei is writing at face value, and if I wanted to dive into the theological debates, what I’d wonder is – if indeed the mainstream majority of Chabad thinks these “crazies” are wrong, and even falling into avoda zara, at what point do they make a real break and clearly define their shita? And Menachem’s other point that our disagreement is mainly on understanding the terminology of chassidus… if so, the crazies are also seemingly “misunderstanding” the lingo and hence falling into kefira. How then does Chabad insure that things are taught correctly?
Perhaps more in support of your position, Menachem Shmei tried to draw a distinction between “meshichism” and “elokism” by noting that the “yechi” litany does not contain “boreinu”. I don’t think this helps, because avoda zara is not limited to just thinking that something other than Hashem created us. In fact, the original avoda zara acknowledged Hashem as the original Creator, but held that Hashem gave power and control to other beings, who could then be petitioned or praised independently. That and ascribing powers to people or things that do not have such powers.
“If Lubavitchers put Rebbe pictures on all house walls, and the house serves as the shul, then there’s going to be one on the eastern wall.” … That wasn’t Yserbius’ point, clearly.” … “In any case, people seem to be meikel when davening in their own homes (i.e. I’ve never seen anyone leave their eastern wall undecorated on purpose)”
Even in smaller Chabad houses, it’s not like davening in someone’s living room. They set up a room as a functional shul, with an aron kodesh, bima, amud, mechitza, etc. So no, I would not expect pictures to be on the wall at the front of that room. If a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe was placed there at the front, with the aron kodesh and amud, it would be a deliberate act and a statement with clear theological ramifications. Yserbius123 obviously thought that, because he brought it up with hyperbolic flair. I thought that, and Menachem Shmei obviously thought that based on his responses. So I’m not sure that it’s me who’s missing the point.
Yes in a normal living room setup there’s likely pictures on the wall, but the room was not intentionally set up for davening. When I daven at home I stand close to the wall and davka not directly in front of a picture or mirror. When I’m at someone else’s house, it’s harder, but I try to not be directly in front of pictures.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“It’s going to pretty much be guaranteed to happen in any Chabad that’s a house-shul like I mentioned.”
I doubt it.
“I’ve never jumped to the assumption that anyone’s kavana was to bow down to the picture as a replacement for Hashem; Chabad just likes putting Rebbe pictures everywhere.”
There’s many steps before literally bowing down and replacing.
“Seems like a strange thing for either side of this conversation to make a big deal of.”
It’s forbidden to daven in front of a picture (or even a mirror), so Yserbius123 was making a pretty big accusation.
“What more are you looking for? If the neutral parties reading this thread still have no objections to Chabad even with those things out in the open, then they never will, no matter how many Litvish gedolim you bring in who say they should.”
So my goal in participating in this thread wasn’t to get people to object to Chabad, but rather to have a discussion and debate, with the possibility that we could understand each other better.
Yserbius123,
“You’ve already admitted to multiple beliefs”
What’s it like to be completely unencumbered by the concepts of truthfulness and accuracy? Menachem Shmei didn’t “admit” to having these beliefs; he acknowledged that there may be “crazies” who hold these beliefs. To ask how pervasive the beliefs are, why Chabad seems to tolerate them, and at what point it crosses the boundary from “tipshus” to “apikorsus” seem to be legitimate questions.
The Frumguy,
“What can be done?”
Forbid your kids from getting drivers licenses.
Menachem Shmei,
“I honestly request that you name the Chabad Houses that you’ve seen with a picture of the Rebbe on mizrach vant, because something like this is a huge issue that must be addressed”
In this era where so many people are carrying a camera with them at all times, I doubt such a place actually exists.
DaMoshe,
“I’ve always been fascinated by life underwater.”
If it rains much more, we’ll be able to whale watch from the comfort of our living room windows!
amirican yeshivish,
“Of course not. But if someone finds he “can’t” keep Shabbos anymore he is by defenition not frum. But if he “can’t” eat cholov yisroel that is not the case. The same would be about the Yeshiva guy who “can’t” wear a hat and jacket or the Satmar guy who starts eating OU.”
In the majority of circumstances, one who “can’t” wear a hat and jacket anymore is not due to contact rashes, sensory issues, or the like. Because in those cases the guy would speak with his rav and figure out what to do. No, we’re talking about a person who’s likely developed a deep distaste for a certain segment of klal Yisroel, and is rebelling against it or trying to distance himself from it. By chalav stam or hechshers, perhaps there’s financial or dietary issues at play, but again, a connected Jew would speak with his rav, and what we’re talking about here is most likely also a rebellion. The fact that such a person might land in a place that is nominally acceptable by some other segments of frumkeit is fortunate, but the spiritual situation that leads to the change is not much different than the guy who just “can’t” keep Shabbos anymore.
“I was told of someone who was looking desperatly erev Yom Kippur for a chicken for kapporres and wouldn’t hear the tzad to use money, but was saying he doesn’t plan on fasting because “Hashem loves me and for sure doesn’t care if I fast or not””
Whatever.
amirican yeshivish,
“I say this because i find it important to diffrenciate. I know of a Chabad person who went OTD because she ate Cholov Stam and then threw in the towel (nebach) because anyways she did an aveirah…”
This is a common polemic against minhagim or chumros, but it’s rather silly. If someone “throws in the towel” because they believe they did an aveira, ate chalav stam, or flipped a switch on Shabbos, or slept past the zman, or whatnot, their problems are way beyond whether they are aware of what’s a derabbanan or a deoraisa. If someone goes ballistic and burns down a hotel because the scrambled eggs at the breakfast buffet were cold at 10am, would your main takeaway from the incident be how important it is for hotels to keep their eggs hot?
WolfishMusings,
I’m a BT, which means unfortunately that I used to eat non-kosher. I have occasional dreams where I find myself suddenly in a non-kosher restaurant or cafeteria, having just eaten or being in the middle of eating. I then realize what I’m doing or did, and feel horrified, and I’m relieved when I wake up.
May you have a refuah shleima and a wonderful Shabbos!
Menachem Shmei,
“The vast majority of shuls I’ve been to don’t have a picture of the Rebbe in shul at all (they will often have one in the hallway or lobby).”
This has been my observation as well, though I’m sure my sample size is much smaller than yours.
AviraDeArah,
“So because i don’t accept their accounts as a given, i chose not to passel a yid who I know nothing about, who for all i know could have been a very good jew.”
Sounds like a good policy to have, thanks.
Menachem Shmei,
“I must say, this is not a very honest comparison.”
Curious as to why you chose to describe the point as not honest as opposed to incorrect or mistaken.
“In this case, the Alter Rebbe was just released from prison, where he was arrested for treason (death sentence r”l) because of a libel by the misnagdim”
Of the misnagdim? Collective blame? Did they get 30 pieces of silver? Did they declare his blood be on us and our children forever?
“of which Reb Noteh Notkin was very outspoken and instrumental.”
Guilt by association?
AviraDeArah,
“Chabad .org calls nota notkin a leader of misnagdim….he wasn’t a rov according to articles online about him; definitely wasn’t a gadol or rov of a community…”
I couldn’t find much information about him, but it seems he was more of a maskil than a misnagid. He did a lot of advocating for Jews to the Russian government, but he also sought to open schools where Russian language and other secular subjects would be taught, and to try and bring Jews into civil service (and hence out of the Pale of Settlement).
mentsch1,
“Any one self identifying as a misnagid is doing so bc he doesn’t respect the chassidik philosophy.”
Not so. Exhibit A: CTLAWYER.
“Do you really see a major difference between the word snag and telling someone his practices are akin to avodeh zara?”
Yup. And I’ve already explained it above. Let me know if you need all-caps.
CTLAWYER,
“As I mentioned in a comment, I had never seen or heard the term SNAG until reading it in this thread. It is not a derogatory term uttered aloud in the OOT communities I’ve lived in.”
B”H. It does seem to be more prevalent in “online” spaces.
“In about 7 decades of life Misnagid has only been used as self description and see when reading Jewish history.”
I never heard or learned the term misnagid until I encountered Chabad. The terms I heard to describe Jews from my grandparents and frum relatives were Litvak, German (not Yekke), Chassidic, MO, etc.
mentsch1,
“So explain to me how I am the one spewing hatred and you are the mentsch?”
Well, you’ve called him obtuse twice now and implied that he’s debating with disingenuous intentions, whereas he’s just disagreed with you.
mentsch1,
“I make the same point, we all prefer our own minhagim and to an extent look down on the minhagim and philosophies of others as being strange.”
Preferring one’s own minhagim is not the same thing as looking down on other minhagim.
“why is it worse when a lubavitcher calls me a snag than when I roll my eyes and make a comment when i see a chassid driving after shkia on erev shabbos?”
I wouldn’t recommend rolling your eyes and making “comments”, because that’s not nice. But calling someone a name is most definitely worse than objecting to a practice. Because the former dehumanizes, while the latter is a halachic or hashkafic dispute. If a chassid tells me that since I bring non-CY dairy into my house he cannot eat from my dairy dishes, and he thinks it’s wrong, and chalav stam is chalav akum, that’s a halachic dispute and not inherently an insult. I can choose to be insulted if I were immature. I could discuss and debate with him, which might be interesting. Or I could accommodate him and still welcome him to my home. If he calls me a snag or sheigetz, however, that’s a dehumanizing slur and most definitely an insult.
mentsch1,
“I will repeat
If we can be elitist, why can’t they?”Stop right there, and take me out of that we. You can speak for yourself only.
“I don’t care if they use it pejoratively. I don’t care if I am the boogie man of their stories.”
Well, I do care, and so do many other Jews I know.
“You will hear the same pejoratives in all my misnagdish familiy homes, just in the reverse.”
Not in my home, and not in homes I’ve visited. I think the worst I’ve heard was a story involving a Lubavitcher (non-insulting), where in describing him the guy said, “and he was a real Lubavitcher, with the shmushed hat and everything”.
“If all misnagdim were careful to always treat the differing philosophies of their fellow Jews with the utmost respect, then I can hear calling out a segment who doesn’t act the same.”
Or perhaps you can give tochacha to those who slur or villainize, whether they are Litvish, Chabad, or whoever. Because two wrongs don’t make a right.
“But the whole point of self identifying as a misnagid is showing that you don’t respect the other philosophy.”
I don’t self identify as a misnagid.
Menachem Shmei,
“Although it is know simply as “Yud Tes Kislev” – Chabad actually celebrates Yud Tes & Chof Kislev.”
Ok, I was off by a day in my recollection. My question still remains, however: the time spent with a misnagid was so odious that it was equivalent to being imprisoned falsely by gentiles? The story never really sat right with me, because the “screaming” and the serving tea seem so incongruous. And the idea that being questioned by another Jew is equivalent to being victimized. R’ Moshe Feinstein ZT”L encountered strong opposition to some of his rulings (e.g., chalav stam) from chassidishe rebbes, and some of their disciples even behaved rudely towards him, but the Jews who opposed him were not enshrined in American Litvak lore as being villains.
Menachem Shmei,
“all Lubavitchers that I know consider this unacceptable, and this is the chinuch that is given.”
Good to know.
AviraDeArah,
“the difference is that the child sees the reaction from the parents. Here, they are actively imagining the pleasure their revbe gets from their actions instead of imagining the pleasure Hashem gets from it”
Maskim
AviraDeArah,
“but you have to admit that there is an issue with people doing mitzvos because they make their rebbe happy”
This is not something that is unique to Chabad. It’s childish, but even adults retain some of childhood. A 4-year old washes his hands and makes a nice, loud al netilas yadayim mostly because it puts a smile on mommy and totty’s faces, with some understanding that there is Hashem who commanded it. A man who davens a bit slower in shul than he does when alone, or puts on a tie when going to shul but not at home, etc. is largely the same as that 4-year old.
“doing kiruv because the Lubavitcher rebbe said to do it”
I don’t see this as problematic either. Years ago, my rav at the time told me a dishwasher cannot be kashered. So I’ve never done so, despite knowing other opinions say it’s possible (replace racks, 3 cycles, etc.), because I asked a shaila on what to do and the rav said what to do.
“feeling safe because they are carrying a picture of him in their pocket, asking him for help directly, thinking that he can read your mind all the time, and more.”
These are certainly problematic.
Menachem Shmei,
“When the Alter Rebbe was freed from the Peter Paul Fortress before evening on Yud-Tes Kislev, 5559 (1798)”
I once heard from a Chabad source that he was freed before yud tes Kislev, but the Chabad holiday is celebrated on yud tes Kislev itself because he was accidentally delivered to the house of a misnagid who objected to and questioned him about chassidic beliefs (while serving him tea). And he was “rescued” from the clutches of this misnagid after dark. So the time spent with a misnagid was so odious that it was equivalent to being imprisoned falsely by gentiles?
Menachem Shmei,
First I want to express that I appreciate your willingness to politely and respectfully engage in this debate.
“>>>Unfortunately, for many simple, and some not so simple Chasidim fear of G-d is hardly mentioned: just fear of their Rebbe
This is no longer an ideological discussion but a false accusation. “
I agree that this was an untrue generalization; however, I’m curious if you have a response to the other things Jude wrote that were not generalizations. I was in a mainstream Chabad shul a few weeks ago and saw a fellow with a photo of the rebbe on his shtender while he was davening. I know you’d acknowledge that every group has their “nuts”, but when the nuts start playing with fire in your building, at what point do you do something about it?
mentsch1 and CTLAWYER,
Whether or not your families self-identify as misnagdim is largely irrelevant to this conversation, as is the literal meaning of the word. The issue is when Jews are called misnagdim or snags as a pejorative. Always_Ask_Questions brought up “Ivri” (Hebrew) as an example of self-identifying in opposition, and that’s fine. But when a gentile calls a Jew a “Heeb”, it’s a pejorative. The label “Perushim” was also meant as a separator in the days of Bayis Sheini, but when a Christian calls someone a “Pharisee” it’s not meant as a nice thing. Misnagdim are the villains in Chabad stories, so regardless of what anyone calls themselves, it’s not nice for someone to call their fellow Jews villains. And snag is always a pejorative. It’s as simple as that.
SACT5,
“In my ignorant open-minded not-so-frum opinion its controversial because if it was an “official” position that the Rebbe is the mashiach it would cause Lubavitch to become a new splinter religion like one of many splinter groups that have their origins in Judaism.”
The belief that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the Moshiach, assuming it’s the traditional Jewish definition of Moshiach, in of itself would not cause the formation of a new religion. Changing the definition of Moshiach to deify the Lubavitcher Rebbe would, as would any abrogation of Torah and mitzvos.
“The biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity is accepting “you know who” as the messiah.”
It goes way beyond that. They worship him as a god. They conceive of their deity as a trinity. They see the Torah as superseded, and the covenant between the Jewish people and Hashem as abrogated in favor of believers in their deity.
“Between the different groups within Judaism today the major differences are all generally based on religious practices not theology.”
This is generally true when referring to Orthodox Judaism, though there are some minor theological differences at times. The debates in these Chabad threads are largely theological, which may be why they’re so dramatic. When referring to non-Orthodox Jewish movements, however, there are absolutely major theological differences.
“Very recently I realized that Chabad checks all of the boxes I have been looking for so I plan to really explore what they offer. There are limited choices for observant Jewish experiences where I live and I am quite thankful for the opportunities they provide.”
Kol hakavod! May you have much hatzlacha and bracha on your journey.
Orthodoxrabbi1995,
“I think a movement who believes their teachings came from moshiach(story with the baal shem tov) and need to be spread in order for him to come naturally are gonna think one who doesnt learn them is not getting all the spirituality one needs. Idk what else u expect there.”
Thank you for the candid answer.
“I think they would say they have an emes which rav chaim isnt tapping into and a kesher to the nasi which rav chaim doesnt have and that if rav chaim tapped into it he would be even greater.”
I personally would not dare to judge a gadol of Rav Chaim’s stature in that manner.
“He suggested another word to use for day to day interactions.”
What word is that?
No, Chabad is not obsessed over or brought up frequently (if ever) in non-Chabad circles. The CR is not representative of the real world. On the Internet, one thread inspires another, and a bunch of discussion comes in a wave that crests then troughs. Think of the phrase going viral. The “Chabad inspires” thread was started by a provocateur. The “RCA statement” thread was started in response to that thread, etc. This forum is designed to promote debate.
Orthodoxrabbi1995,
“There is a particular minority section who annoyingly(to put it lightly) proclaims it and have more right leaning views. Most dont like them.”
Is it a particular unliked minority who uses the term “snag” and believe that those who don’t ascribe to Chabad chasidus are spiritually inferior?
“But even the ones that dont like them think the rebbe is moshiach.”
Unfortunately, the beis hamikdash is not rebuilt. The knowledge of Hashem is not filling the world as water fills the seas. The Jewish people are not ingathered into E”Y under the rule of a G-d fearing king. Clearly the Moshiach has not arrived yet. Chabad teaches that there is always somebody in the world who has the potential to be the Moshiach. The Lubavitcher Rebbe passed away and is no longer in this world. So, would you say that, since you believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the Moshiach, that there is no longer somebody in this world who has the potential to be the Moshiach?
“you clearly have a lot more issues here with lubavitch than the messianism.”
I never claimed that my questions or “issues” were limited to messianism. Nor did I say Chabad is intolerable. And rather than address what I wrote, even to state that I’m incorrect, this statement insinuates that the “issues” reside with me rather than with the actions I described, which is gaslighting.
The reason messianism “tops the list” is partly because of the proclaiming and proselytizing that you say is coming from a minority group, but also because the lines dividing reverence for a rebbe, messianism and deification seem to be getting blurry.
lakewhut,
“We learn from Korach not to get involved with Machlokes”
You don’t shy away from machlokes when the topic is politics.
coffee addict,
“So Lubavitchers believe their rebbe is moshiach and can come from the dead, so what? It isn’t an aveirah (maybe a shtus) and they won’t listen to you and you won’t listen to them”
Because they proselytize it. I have been given pamphlets declaring that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Melech Hamoshiach and that it is my duty as a Jew to proclaim it. Not only that, my community is called “Snags” derisively, and declared to be spiritually dead. And my ancestors are the villains of their stories, chillingly similar to how the “scribes and Pharisees” are the villains of the Xian bible. And they have set themselves up to be the first point of contact with gentiles and non-frum Jews. And if someone like me were to ask a question such as why is it ok to proclaim someone to be Moshiach when the specific things that are supposed to happen at the coming of the Moshiach have not happened yet, or why have I seen people in Chabad shuls davening with a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe on their shtender, it’s declared to be sinas chinam?
There was a lot of push back to this thread. Some specific responses to somejewiknow:
“because the specific ideology you are looking to criticize, is a criticism that has no toeles plus you are doing it very publicly to an audience that it not connected to the proponents of the ideology.”
1. What makes it have no toeles? I’m not convinced that it does or it does not, but you made a definitive statement and I’m wondering what you’ve based it on.
2. AviraDeArah has been debating extensively with Chabad proponents on other threads. There are many Chabad posters in the CR. This kashya was not stated in a rude way.“Your question lacks any sincerity. If you really want to know the answer to your question, for yourself, you would ask” [snip]”
Are all questions asked on the CR insincere? Or just ones asked about Chabad? And why do you see yourself as a gatekeeper on what’s ok or not ok to ask in the CR? And at the end of the day, the OP didn’t even ask a question.
“On top of that, the issue you bring up has been well discussed and debated and you (seemingly) are not bringing anything new to the conversation.”
Actually, it has not, and I have never heard a clear and cogent answer to this question.
“You are just a bully trying to get people to think bad on other holy Jews. sinas chinam.”
Neither the OP nor AviraDeArah made any personal attacks in this thread. This, however, was a personal attack. AviraDeArah expresses his opposition to certain ideologies quite strongly and in a way that seems to inflame passions, and he is sometimes too quick to declare a statement kefira without first getting clarification, but I cannot recall him ever personally attacking or disrespecting another poster. And that is despite other posters frequently attacking him personally, calling him names (e.g., “Aveirah”), and even subtly threatening him.
I am opposed to a like button. People here write to get responses, not likes. If we starting posting for likes, it would alter the flow of threads, and provide motivation to try and slam dunk on your opponent with a sharp and witty comeback rather than have a dialog or debate. Also, people could “pile on” with the likes (or dislikes), elevating some opinions and suppressing others. That’s a recipe for groupthink.
Yabia Omer,
“You have data to back that up?!”
It’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. And you and AviraDeArah would likely have to first come to mutually agreeable definitions of BT and frum to even begin an attempt at comparing.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“black-ha(ugh)tiness”
Kol haposel, b’mumo posel
rightwriter,
“Does anyone know about this note and can explain how they got this idea?”
They do anything and everything to try and prove the validity of their deity. They take pesukim out of context (or outright mistranslate them) and claim them as proof texts. In his debates with the Ramban, Pablo Christiani even tried to prove their deity from statements in the gemara! They consider a Jewish person apostatizing R”L to be a big win for their cause. So really there’s no big explanation needed for how they’d get this idea. They’ll find a statement, warp its meaning, and run with it.
Rocky,
“I know of several shuls (outside of SI) which host a weekly kiddush using shul funds. If they have a sponsor, fine, but if not, they pay for it with communal funds. Although the officers of the shul are doing this to promote social interaction among members, I find it to be a wasteful use of communal funds.”
Why stop there? Do they have a Thursday night cholent? Chas veshalom is there coffee, drinks or snacks at the shiurim? Should we count how many siddurs and chumashim they have on the shelf and run a comparison to the typical crowd size? Do the sifrei Torah really need silver crowns? Maybe they should just have one sefer Torah and roll it on Rosh Chodesh, etc. Do they put tablecloths on the tables on Shabbos? Are the bookshelves higher quality than the cheapest you can find at Ikea? A silver menorah for Chanukah?
1. Reb Eliezer was quite clear on what the funds would be used for, so I don’t think you have to worry that your donation will go towards a piece of kugel a kid accidentally drops on the floor
2. A small weekly kiddush is not the elephant in a shul’s budget, especially if the kiddushes are frequently sponsored
3. A kiddush may draw more people to daven at the shul, and these people get aliyos and make pledges and pay membership duesujm,
“the MO Jew telling a Chareidi that you cannot eat the food from my home since my keilim were used to make Cholov Stam food and/or I used my pots and pans, dishes and utensils with food products using hechsheirim that you hold isn’t acceptable. Therefore I’ll feed you with prepackaged food with a heimishe hechsher and I’ll serve it to you on paper good and plastic utensils.”
This is hachnasas orchim! The goal of feeding people is to make them feel comfortable.
DaMoshe,
“There are many chumros that the yeshivish world keeps, and that’s fine. … Here are some examples:
Mixed seating at simchos… Tznius… Chalav Yisrael…”None of these chumros were invented in the past week, or even in the last generation. And none of them were made without rabbinical guidance.
“Mixed seating at simchos – there is no halachic need for separate seating, yet many yeshivish people expect everyone to do it”
I don’t think they “expect” everyone to do it. And “many yeshivish people” may indeed view it as a halachic issue. So when they’re invited to a mixed simcha, they have to figure out how to navigate it.
“and will tell you that there’s something wrong with having mixed seating.”
Other than online debating forums like this one, how often does this happen to you in real life? Are you making mixed seating simchos in New Square or Kiryas Yoel? Are your family members largely yeshivish or chassidish? Are you inviting tons of yeshivish and chassidish people to your simchos? Because I doubt yeshivish and chassidish people are out roaming the streets of Teaneck looking for simchos to criticize.
“Tznius – many, many chumros were instituted. Knees and elbows covered isn’t enough anymore. Now you need everything down to the toes. Leggings aren’t ok, only tights are.”
Yeah, there’s some variability in communal dress standards. But women in Yeshivish communities don’t typically wear dresses to the floor. Your description seems like scattershot stereotypes.
“Chalav Yisrael – it’s a chumrah, yet this gets pushed by so many people. I even know of one person who threw out a Reese’s bar rather than give it to someone who eats chalav stam.”
I have no idea what went on regarding the Reece’s candy incident, but are MO communities free of jerks? Through personal experience, I can say unfortunately not. Should I paint an entire community based on negative interactions with a handful of people? Re: chalav stam, for some it’s a chumrah, but for others (e.g., Satmars, Chabad), it’s considered chalav akum and completely forbidden.
“I don’t view yeshivish people as being more frum than me. It’s a different derech, and both are valid. I don’t try and push my derech on others. I’d like the same respect in return.”
This feels like moved goalposts to me. The point of your previous post was why right wing MO supposedly refuse to identify as yeshivish. And the tone of your criticisms indicates both that you do not indeed see the derech as valid, and that your picture of them is more of a caricature than reality.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“And the fellow who threw out the Hershey’s chocolate holds it is treif, per the psak of his posek. So he cannot give it to someone else, even if the other fellow holds otherwise.
This. is what keeps us apart. You could at least give it to your goyishe friend or cleaner crew, or to your dog.”
Dan l’kaf zechus, maybe the fellow was pushy about trying to take the Hershey’s chocolate. Or was worried that if he told the fellow, “I’m not gonna give it to you, but I’ll give it to a goy” would be offensive? Or maybe he holds that artificial flavors, hydrogenated oils, and whatnot are not real food fit to eat?
As for the dog, if you don’t like dogs, fine, but to poison them is going a bit too far, don’t you think? Hershey’s chocolate would possibly kill a dog.
yeshivaguy45,
“You can teach your kids that ice cream is a special treat and you don’t have to get every single day just because the ice cream truck is here.”
Right, but for kids every day is special.
CTLAWYER,
“Kosher milchiges is very expensive. If the fleisch is the flavoring to the meal (a bit of cut up chicken in a salad, or a meatball with pasta) it need not be more expensive than dairy or unhealthy.”
Do you keep cholov Yisroel? In my neck of the woods, ground beef costs $5.99/lb on sale, and $7.99/lb when not. Chicken legs are around $3.50/lb. A 2lb bag of shredded cholov Yisroel mozzarella is $8.99 at Costco, and a gallon of Pride of the Farm whole milk is $6.99. If you don’t keep CY, that gallon of milk is half that or even less. Both the dairy and meat are expensive, but the dairy goes much further to feed my family. The 2lb bag of cheese can make 3-4 pans of ziti, and the gallon of milk can serve quite a few bowls of cereal. Milk nearing its expiration date + vinegar on the stove makes ricotta cheese for lasagna. For us in general, the cost of meat for one meal would get us 2+ dairy meals.
Amil Zola and n0mesorah,
Interesting! The swaths of the South I’ve been through don’t fully overlap yours, so perhaps it’s a regional thing. I don’t travel too often, so maybe it’s a more recent development as well?
DaMoshe,
“In the chareidi/yeshivish world, people are taught that learning in kollel is the only real option for life.”
With the MO you use a “no true Scotsman” argument to weed out the “left wing” others are referring to. With the Yeshivish, you use false stereotypes. The OP is clearly inflammatory. Why accept its premise and give inaccurate definitions for these groups?
“College is viewed as a horrible thing by most yeshivos. People are taught that using the internet is forbidden, unless absolutely necessary to earn a living.”
I think the primary philosophical differences relate to dress, Zionism (e.g., saying a mi-sheberach for the medina, hallel on Yom Haazmaut, placing religious significance on the medina, etc.) and these issues you mention. I am a BT and I spent years in a university environment. It is indeed a horrible environment for a frum person. I think you ignore the attempts that the yeshivsh community is making to mitigate this. Online classes, programs that offer filtered laptops, and programs that are condensed and focused (without the substantial liberal arts coursework required by most universities even for STEM majors) are becoming more common, and gradually more responsive to frum sensibilities.
As far as the Internet, do you not see unfiltered internet as a danger?
“But the yeshivish world believes in a cookie cutter system, where everyone must fit the same shape.”
This is hardly unique to the yeshivish world.
“Then we get to the chumros. Chumros for everything, a new chumrah comes out every week for something else.”
Can you name a new chumra that came out last week and was adopted en masse by the yeshivish community? Or in the last 6 months? And what chumros are you so strongly opposed to? So what if someone can’t eat your chalav stam dairy, or your gebrocts on Pesach, or who comes up as a “green bubble” on your iPhone because he’s got a flip phone with SMS only?
“There have been a number of approaches I’ve heard from just giving their kids the $4+ for an ice cream each time to using it as an incentive program for rare occasions to flat out refusing to buy from a truck.”
We go with the latter. We’ve only bought from a truck when out in “tourist mode”, not when the truck comes down our street. We give our kids a small allowance when certain expectations are met. Within our house rules, they can spend the money as they want. When it runs out, it runs out until they earn more.
takahmamash,
“With all the problems to worry about in the world, I don’t see this one on the radar.”
So? Does the CR need gatekeepers to only allow discussions of what you see to be problems?