Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Menachem Shmei,
First I want to express that I appreciate your willingness to politely and respectfully engage in this debate.
“>>>Unfortunately, for many simple, and some not so simple Chasidim fear of G-d is hardly mentioned: just fear of their Rebbe
This is no longer an ideological discussion but a false accusation. “
I agree that this was an untrue generalization; however, I’m curious if you have a response to the other things Jude wrote that were not generalizations. I was in a mainstream Chabad shul a few weeks ago and saw a fellow with a photo of the rebbe on his shtender while he was davening. I know you’d acknowledge that every group has their “nuts”, but when the nuts start playing with fire in your building, at what point do you do something about it?
mentsch1 and CTLAWYER,
Whether or not your families self-identify as misnagdim is largely irrelevant to this conversation, as is the literal meaning of the word. The issue is when Jews are called misnagdim or snags as a pejorative. Always_Ask_Questions brought up “Ivri” (Hebrew) as an example of self-identifying in opposition, and that’s fine. But when a gentile calls a Jew a “Heeb”, it’s a pejorative. The label “Perushim” was also meant as a separator in the days of Bayis Sheini, but when a Christian calls someone a “Pharisee” it’s not meant as a nice thing. Misnagdim are the villains in Chabad stories, so regardless of what anyone calls themselves, it’s not nice for someone to call their fellow Jews villains. And snag is always a pejorative. It’s as simple as that.
SACT5,
“In my ignorant open-minded not-so-frum opinion its controversial because if it was an “official” position that the Rebbe is the mashiach it would cause Lubavitch to become a new splinter religion like one of many splinter groups that have their origins in Judaism.”
The belief that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the Moshiach, assuming it’s the traditional Jewish definition of Moshiach, in of itself would not cause the formation of a new religion. Changing the definition of Moshiach to deify the Lubavitcher Rebbe would, as would any abrogation of Torah and mitzvos.
“The biggest difference between Judaism and Christianity is accepting “you know who” as the messiah.”
It goes way beyond that. They worship him as a god. They conceive of their deity as a trinity. They see the Torah as superseded, and the covenant between the Jewish people and Hashem as abrogated in favor of believers in their deity.
“Between the different groups within Judaism today the major differences are all generally based on religious practices not theology.”
This is generally true when referring to Orthodox Judaism, though there are some minor theological differences at times. The debates in these Chabad threads are largely theological, which may be why they’re so dramatic. When referring to non-Orthodox Jewish movements, however, there are absolutely major theological differences.
“Very recently I realized that Chabad checks all of the boxes I have been looking for so I plan to really explore what they offer. There are limited choices for observant Jewish experiences where I live and I am quite thankful for the opportunities they provide.”
Kol hakavod! May you have much hatzlacha and bracha on your journey.
Orthodoxrabbi1995,
“I think a movement who believes their teachings came from moshiach(story with the baal shem tov) and need to be spread in order for him to come naturally are gonna think one who doesnt learn them is not getting all the spirituality one needs. Idk what else u expect there.”
Thank you for the candid answer.
“I think they would say they have an emes which rav chaim isnt tapping into and a kesher to the nasi which rav chaim doesnt have and that if rav chaim tapped into it he would be even greater.”
I personally would not dare to judge a gadol of Rav Chaim’s stature in that manner.
“He suggested another word to use for day to day interactions.”
What word is that?
No, Chabad is not obsessed over or brought up frequently (if ever) in non-Chabad circles. The CR is not representative of the real world. On the Internet, one thread inspires another, and a bunch of discussion comes in a wave that crests then troughs. Think of the phrase going viral. The “Chabad inspires” thread was started by a provocateur. The “RCA statement” thread was started in response to that thread, etc. This forum is designed to promote debate.
Orthodoxrabbi1995,
“There is a particular minority section who annoyingly(to put it lightly) proclaims it and have more right leaning views. Most dont like them.”
Is it a particular unliked minority who uses the term “snag” and believe that those who don’t ascribe to Chabad chasidus are spiritually inferior?
“But even the ones that dont like them think the rebbe is moshiach.”
Unfortunately, the beis hamikdash is not rebuilt. The knowledge of Hashem is not filling the world as water fills the seas. The Jewish people are not ingathered into E”Y under the rule of a G-d fearing king. Clearly the Moshiach has not arrived yet. Chabad teaches that there is always somebody in the world who has the potential to be the Moshiach. The Lubavitcher Rebbe passed away and is no longer in this world. So, would you say that, since you believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the Moshiach, that there is no longer somebody in this world who has the potential to be the Moshiach?
“you clearly have a lot more issues here with lubavitch than the messianism.”
I never claimed that my questions or “issues” were limited to messianism. Nor did I say Chabad is intolerable. And rather than address what I wrote, even to state that I’m incorrect, this statement insinuates that the “issues” reside with me rather than with the actions I described, which is gaslighting.
The reason messianism “tops the list” is partly because of the proclaiming and proselytizing that you say is coming from a minority group, but also because the lines dividing reverence for a rebbe, messianism and deification seem to be getting blurry.
lakewhut,
“We learn from Korach not to get involved with Machlokes”
You don’t shy away from machlokes when the topic is politics.
coffee addict,
“So Lubavitchers believe their rebbe is moshiach and can come from the dead, so what? It isn’t an aveirah (maybe a shtus) and they won’t listen to you and you won’t listen to them”
Because they proselytize it. I have been given pamphlets declaring that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Melech Hamoshiach and that it is my duty as a Jew to proclaim it. Not only that, my community is called “Snags” derisively, and declared to be spiritually dead. And my ancestors are the villains of their stories, chillingly similar to how the “scribes and Pharisees” are the villains of the Xian bible. And they have set themselves up to be the first point of contact with gentiles and non-frum Jews. And if someone like me were to ask a question such as why is it ok to proclaim someone to be Moshiach when the specific things that are supposed to happen at the coming of the Moshiach have not happened yet, or why have I seen people in Chabad shuls davening with a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe on their shtender, it’s declared to be sinas chinam?
There was a lot of push back to this thread. Some specific responses to somejewiknow:
“because the specific ideology you are looking to criticize, is a criticism that has no toeles plus you are doing it very publicly to an audience that it not connected to the proponents of the ideology.”
1. What makes it have no toeles? I’m not convinced that it does or it does not, but you made a definitive statement and I’m wondering what you’ve based it on.
2. AviraDeArah has been debating extensively with Chabad proponents on other threads. There are many Chabad posters in the CR. This kashya was not stated in a rude way.“Your question lacks any sincerity. If you really want to know the answer to your question, for yourself, you would ask” [snip]”
Are all questions asked on the CR insincere? Or just ones asked about Chabad? And why do you see yourself as a gatekeeper on what’s ok or not ok to ask in the CR? And at the end of the day, the OP didn’t even ask a question.
“On top of that, the issue you bring up has been well discussed and debated and you (seemingly) are not bringing anything new to the conversation.”
Actually, it has not, and I have never heard a clear and cogent answer to this question.
“You are just a bully trying to get people to think bad on other holy Jews. sinas chinam.”
Neither the OP nor AviraDeArah made any personal attacks in this thread. This, however, was a personal attack. AviraDeArah expresses his opposition to certain ideologies quite strongly and in a way that seems to inflame passions, and he is sometimes too quick to declare a statement kefira without first getting clarification, but I cannot recall him ever personally attacking or disrespecting another poster. And that is despite other posters frequently attacking him personally, calling him names (e.g., “Aveirah”), and even subtly threatening him.
I am opposed to a like button. People here write to get responses, not likes. If we starting posting for likes, it would alter the flow of threads, and provide motivation to try and slam dunk on your opponent with a sharp and witty comeback rather than have a dialog or debate. Also, people could “pile on” with the likes (or dislikes), elevating some opinions and suppressing others. That’s a recipe for groupthink.
Yabia Omer,
“You have data to back that up?!”
It’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. And you and AviraDeArah would likely have to first come to mutually agreeable definitions of BT and frum to even begin an attempt at comparing.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“black-ha(ugh)tiness”
Kol haposel, b’mumo posel
rightwriter,
“Does anyone know about this note and can explain how they got this idea?”
They do anything and everything to try and prove the validity of their deity. They take pesukim out of context (or outright mistranslate them) and claim them as proof texts. In his debates with the Ramban, Pablo Christiani even tried to prove their deity from statements in the gemara! They consider a Jewish person apostatizing R”L to be a big win for their cause. So really there’s no big explanation needed for how they’d get this idea. They’ll find a statement, warp its meaning, and run with it.
Rocky,
“I know of several shuls (outside of SI) which host a weekly kiddush using shul funds. If they have a sponsor, fine, but if not, they pay for it with communal funds. Although the officers of the shul are doing this to promote social interaction among members, I find it to be a wasteful use of communal funds.”
Why stop there? Do they have a Thursday night cholent? Chas veshalom is there coffee, drinks or snacks at the shiurim? Should we count how many siddurs and chumashim they have on the shelf and run a comparison to the typical crowd size? Do the sifrei Torah really need silver crowns? Maybe they should just have one sefer Torah and roll it on Rosh Chodesh, etc. Do they put tablecloths on the tables on Shabbos? Are the bookshelves higher quality than the cheapest you can find at Ikea? A silver menorah for Chanukah?
1. Reb Eliezer was quite clear on what the funds would be used for, so I don’t think you have to worry that your donation will go towards a piece of kugel a kid accidentally drops on the floor
2. A small weekly kiddush is not the elephant in a shul’s budget, especially if the kiddushes are frequently sponsored
3. A kiddush may draw more people to daven at the shul, and these people get aliyos and make pledges and pay membership duesujm,
“the MO Jew telling a Chareidi that you cannot eat the food from my home since my keilim were used to make Cholov Stam food and/or I used my pots and pans, dishes and utensils with food products using hechsheirim that you hold isn’t acceptable. Therefore I’ll feed you with prepackaged food with a heimishe hechsher and I’ll serve it to you on paper good and plastic utensils.”
This is hachnasas orchim! The goal of feeding people is to make them feel comfortable.
DaMoshe,
“There are many chumros that the yeshivish world keeps, and that’s fine. … Here are some examples:
Mixed seating at simchos… Tznius… Chalav Yisrael…”None of these chumros were invented in the past week, or even in the last generation. And none of them were made without rabbinical guidance.
“Mixed seating at simchos – there is no halachic need for separate seating, yet many yeshivish people expect everyone to do it”
I don’t think they “expect” everyone to do it. And “many yeshivish people” may indeed view it as a halachic issue. So when they’re invited to a mixed simcha, they have to figure out how to navigate it.
“and will tell you that there’s something wrong with having mixed seating.”
Other than online debating forums like this one, how often does this happen to you in real life? Are you making mixed seating simchos in New Square or Kiryas Yoel? Are your family members largely yeshivish or chassidish? Are you inviting tons of yeshivish and chassidish people to your simchos? Because I doubt yeshivish and chassidish people are out roaming the streets of Teaneck looking for simchos to criticize.
“Tznius – many, many chumros were instituted. Knees and elbows covered isn’t enough anymore. Now you need everything down to the toes. Leggings aren’t ok, only tights are.”
Yeah, there’s some variability in communal dress standards. But women in Yeshivish communities don’t typically wear dresses to the floor. Your description seems like scattershot stereotypes.
“Chalav Yisrael – it’s a chumrah, yet this gets pushed by so many people. I even know of one person who threw out a Reese’s bar rather than give it to someone who eats chalav stam.”
I have no idea what went on regarding the Reece’s candy incident, but are MO communities free of jerks? Through personal experience, I can say unfortunately not. Should I paint an entire community based on negative interactions with a handful of people? Re: chalav stam, for some it’s a chumrah, but for others (e.g., Satmars, Chabad), it’s considered chalav akum and completely forbidden.
“I don’t view yeshivish people as being more frum than me. It’s a different derech, and both are valid. I don’t try and push my derech on others. I’d like the same respect in return.”
This feels like moved goalposts to me. The point of your previous post was why right wing MO supposedly refuse to identify as yeshivish. And the tone of your criticisms indicates both that you do not indeed see the derech as valid, and that your picture of them is more of a caricature than reality.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“And the fellow who threw out the Hershey’s chocolate holds it is treif, per the psak of his posek. So he cannot give it to someone else, even if the other fellow holds otherwise.
This. is what keeps us apart. You could at least give it to your goyishe friend or cleaner crew, or to your dog.”
Dan l’kaf zechus, maybe the fellow was pushy about trying to take the Hershey’s chocolate. Or was worried that if he told the fellow, “I’m not gonna give it to you, but I’ll give it to a goy” would be offensive? Or maybe he holds that artificial flavors, hydrogenated oils, and whatnot are not real food fit to eat?
As for the dog, if you don’t like dogs, fine, but to poison them is going a bit too far, don’t you think? Hershey’s chocolate would possibly kill a dog.
yeshivaguy45,
“You can teach your kids that ice cream is a special treat and you don’t have to get every single day just because the ice cream truck is here.”
Right, but for kids every day is special.
CTLAWYER,
“Kosher milchiges is very expensive. If the fleisch is the flavoring to the meal (a bit of cut up chicken in a salad, or a meatball with pasta) it need not be more expensive than dairy or unhealthy.”
Do you keep cholov Yisroel? In my neck of the woods, ground beef costs $5.99/lb on sale, and $7.99/lb when not. Chicken legs are around $3.50/lb. A 2lb bag of shredded cholov Yisroel mozzarella is $8.99 at Costco, and a gallon of Pride of the Farm whole milk is $6.99. If you don’t keep CY, that gallon of milk is half that or even less. Both the dairy and meat are expensive, but the dairy goes much further to feed my family. The 2lb bag of cheese can make 3-4 pans of ziti, and the gallon of milk can serve quite a few bowls of cereal. Milk nearing its expiration date + vinegar on the stove makes ricotta cheese for lasagna. For us in general, the cost of meat for one meal would get us 2+ dairy meals.
Amil Zola and n0mesorah,
Interesting! The swaths of the South I’ve been through don’t fully overlap yours, so perhaps it’s a regional thing. I don’t travel too often, so maybe it’s a more recent development as well?
DaMoshe,
“In the chareidi/yeshivish world, people are taught that learning in kollel is the only real option for life.”
With the MO you use a “no true Scotsman” argument to weed out the “left wing” others are referring to. With the Yeshivish, you use false stereotypes. The OP is clearly inflammatory. Why accept its premise and give inaccurate definitions for these groups?
“College is viewed as a horrible thing by most yeshivos. People are taught that using the internet is forbidden, unless absolutely necessary to earn a living.”
I think the primary philosophical differences relate to dress, Zionism (e.g., saying a mi-sheberach for the medina, hallel on Yom Haazmaut, placing religious significance on the medina, etc.) and these issues you mention. I am a BT and I spent years in a university environment. It is indeed a horrible environment for a frum person. I think you ignore the attempts that the yeshivsh community is making to mitigate this. Online classes, programs that offer filtered laptops, and programs that are condensed and focused (without the substantial liberal arts coursework required by most universities even for STEM majors) are becoming more common, and gradually more responsive to frum sensibilities.
As far as the Internet, do you not see unfiltered internet as a danger?
“But the yeshivish world believes in a cookie cutter system, where everyone must fit the same shape.”
This is hardly unique to the yeshivish world.
“Then we get to the chumros. Chumros for everything, a new chumrah comes out every week for something else.”
Can you name a new chumra that came out last week and was adopted en masse by the yeshivish community? Or in the last 6 months? And what chumros are you so strongly opposed to? So what if someone can’t eat your chalav stam dairy, or your gebrocts on Pesach, or who comes up as a “green bubble” on your iPhone because he’s got a flip phone with SMS only?
“There have been a number of approaches I’ve heard from just giving their kids the $4+ for an ice cream each time to using it as an incentive program for rare occasions to flat out refusing to buy from a truck.”
We go with the latter. We’ve only bought from a truck when out in “tourist mode”, not when the truck comes down our street. We give our kids a small allowance when certain expectations are met. Within our house rules, they can spend the money as they want. When it runs out, it runs out until they earn more.
takahmamash,
“With all the problems to worry about in the world, I don’t see this one on the radar.”
So? Does the CR need gatekeepers to only allow discussions of what you see to be problems?
CTLAWYER,
“Just feed the kids fleischiges every day for lunch and supper (excluding the three weeks).”
That’s not necessarily a cheaper or healthy solution.
HolyMoe,
“I keep a tub of ice cream in the freezer Every time the ice cream truck comes I take it out and scoop a portion into a cone
This costs me 20 to 30 cents instead of $4 and my kids are happy”This solves the expense issue, but you’re allowing external factors to control your decisions of when to give your kids treats. If two ice cream trucks go down your street daily, do your kids get two ice cream cones a day??
ujm,
“”There’s an old concept of a parent telling a child “no”.”
I don’t think this is the problem @fakenews described. Kids are kids. If you occasionally let them get treats from an ice cream truck, they will ask or clamor every time they hear the music. So the issue is not with saying no, but with feeling burdened by having to repeatedly say no due to external stimuli. The solution (other than rolling burning tires onto your street to keep the trucks out), simply put but harder to implement, is to find a way to manage their expectations. Some of the respondents here had some good ideas.
ubiquitin,
“I have the same problem with local Pizza store, its open from morning till night every day (not Shabbos)”
Unless the pizza store rolls down your street every day playing music, this is not an equivalent example.
DaMoshe,
“It means the government that exists in Israel”
Right, but what does that mean in practice? Most chareidim do work with the Israeli government, but I get the sense that you are not happy with that level of participation.
DaMoshe,
“The Religious Zionism of today still yearns for the geulah, but also tries to work within the system that exists”
What does working “within the system that exists” mean, practically?
n0mesorah,
“Don’t undersell Chabad! They inspire many non Jews to yearn for Moshiach as well.”
So did Paul… Given how hostile Chabad can be towards other streams of frum Judaism, the fact that they attract a lot of non-Jewish attention is actually kind of scary to me.
“Your title claims that they inspire all Jews. Then you posted that no other Jews yearn like they do. Which sounds like Chabad is failing at their primary task.”
The OP intended to inflame, not inform. Therefore making sense was not the top priority.
Amil Zola,
“In some parts of the American South many folks post the 10Cs on their front lawns.”
In what parts of the South? I’ve seen a lot of the South and don’t believe I’ve ever seen the 10 commandments posted in a private front lawn.
huju,
“Would that be good for the Jews?”
No, a strong protection of the First Amendment is extremely important for American Jewry. Unfortunately both major political parties have been amping up to destroy it.
DaMoshe,
“I am a Zionist, but that doesn’t mean I support the government of the State. I wish the State was run by a religious government, in accordance with halacha.”
What are the practical ramifications of this position, if any?
“When the State was founded, they could have participated, and set up the groundwork for the laws to be based on halacha, but many refused, partially because of the urging from Satmar.”
This is historical whitewashing. Do you really think the militantly secular Zionists, who viewed religion as primitive and chareidim as parasites would have entertained the notion of a “halachic” state?
“R’ Yoilish HAD to continue to oppose Zionism because of his actions during the Holocaust.”
I guess the former Satmar Rav is your version of the George Soros puppet master?
“a place where the other nations can’t persecute us for being Jewish”
We can practically still hear the echo of the red alert sirens and explosions over Israel, and Hamas is openly threatening to attack the Jerusalem day parade. The last time I was in Israel, I saw swastikas drawn on walls on Mt. Scopus. The medina certainly has not ended the persecution.
“Where the government won’t torture and kill us for practicing our faith.”
Tel Aviv recently forbade religious Zionists from setting up a prayer service on Yom Haatzmaut because there was to be a mechitza.
“When R’ Akiva saw a fox on the Har haBayis, he laughed, because one nevuah coming true meant the others would as well.”
Har Habayis is still desolate, R”L.
“I can separate the government from the State itself. You seem unable to do so.”
I’m not clear on what this means, similar to my first question.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“I’m relatively confident that chillul Shabbos would be worse than something for which there is no real halachic problem. I’m not talking about the actual protesters, just people who purchase Angel’s products.”
Ah, ok, I think we’re focusing on two completely different things. I agree that there’s no halachic problem with buying Angel’s breads (assuming one’s morah d’asra didn’t explicitly ban it for the kehilla), and I certainly wasn’t referring to the customers when talking about chutzpa and gaiva.
The OP juxtaposed the chareidi community’s response to two things: electricity generated on Shabbos in E”Y, which the Chazon Ish assered but many are lenient or don’t hold by it, and Angel’s bakery, which the tzibbur is boycotting en masse and loudly. My response is that with Angel’s, people are standing up for kavod of the Torah, the gadol whose house was picketed, and the chareidi community. In contrast, while causing chillul Shabbos which is a serious issue and needs to be addressed, the power companies are not doing it davka to spite Hashem and attack those who cling to His Torah.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“Chillul shabbos is still worse”
I wasn’t intending to rank the two issues – just to explain that the motives behind them were different, hence the different responses. But while on the subject, yes the chillul Shabbos is more of a halachic problem for us, but I’m not sure which would be “worse” in the eyes of Hashem. A person who realizes his sins can do teshuva, but chutzpa and gaiva place a block between people and Hashem.
DaMoshe,
“Aveirah, your hatred is showing again”
There’s irony in your complaining about AviraDeArah’s “hatred” when you consistently twist his username to attack him personally. Has he personally attacked you?
“These landing sites have been observed via telescopes and lunar landers.”
I meant orbiters.
Someday,
I know others have already provided answers, but here’s some additional thoughts:
“1) The flag is waving in the wind. There is no wind on in the moon.”
It didn’t wave in “wind”. It had a pole along the top to hold it out, and the bottom was free. It moved when Armstrong and Aldrin were moving it around. This is pretty clear to see in the videos. There’s a really neat video from the Apollo 15 mission where David Scott dropped a hammer and a feather simultaneously, and the fell to the ground at the same rate.
“2) Any slight degree of deviation of target in 238,900 miles, would result in missing the moon by hundreds of miles. There was no such powerful computing power in 1969 to do that. A cell phone today has much more computing power than a computer the size of a large building had in 1969.”
And the Romans built massive aqueducts and the Egyptians built the pyramids without computers at all. Yes getting the trajectories required considerable calculations, but it wasn’t beyond the skill of humanity in the 1960s. Also, you may be overstating the slight deviation = massive miss problem. Keep in mind that both the Earth and the Moon are large, massive objects and had large gravity wells utilized in the trajectories.
“3) Every video tape today of the first moon landing is proven to be a copy, not the original tape. If cutting and pasting was actually done (to produce a forgery,) it can only be proven on the original. The original is gone. Nasa says they accidentally taped something else over the original video tape. What was this? Someone’s bar mitzvah video that someone accidentally taped a football game over it?? It cost 355 million dollars, and billions in today’s money, and they weren’t careful???”
This is essentially an argument from ignorance fallacy. The absence of the tapes does not necessarily mean that they were forged. There were other Apollo missions as well. And after this many decades the original tapes would have degraded by now anyway.
“4) President Kennedy vowed to beat the Russians and that the USA would land on the moon before the end of the decade. They had to show something by 1969. The pressure was enormous.”
Absolutely, and ridiculous amounts of money got thrown at NASA to get it done. Money that NASA does not have now.
“5) They were no where near the technology in that time to do this.”
What technology was missing? Thousands of eyewitnesses saw the Saturn V rocket launches.
“6) Everyone involved in this hoax on the world, including the 3 original astronauts, could never ever reveal it, without becoming the most hated charlatans in history.”
Was only Apollo 11 a fake, but the other moon landings were real? Or were they all fake? Thousands of people were engaged in the Apollo program. Not a single one of them could be bribed by Russia or China to dish dirt?
“7) There was never evidence found of a USA flag post left on the moon.”
There are multiple landing sites with flags. These landing sites have been observed via telescopes and lunar landers. China has the capabilities to observe this as well. These sightings showed that, as suspected by the Apollo 11 astronauts, the flag planted at the first lunar landing site fell down. It’s also been bleached by the sun. Footprints are still there.
I agree with DaasYochid’s take. My concerns with respect to AI technology are more about the potential for economic and social upheaval (e.g., job losses, technology far outpacing the societal implementation of safety/morality boundaries, continued removal of privacy), which the Internet and “smart” devices have already initiated and only seem to be accelerating. I also fear the motives of the people wielding the technology more than the “motives” of the technology itself.
RR44,
“I was discussing using something that is created through trampling on Shabbos”
It’s still different. The issue with Angel Bakery was not chillul Shabbos due possibly more to ignorance and disbelief than malice, but rather the willful disrespect of a gadol borne from hatred of chareidim, Torah Judaism, and Hashem.
Redleg,
Is Ray Kaufman an alternate username of yours, or do we have two forum members each with 50 years of experience building power plants?
“I am not paskening”
But you seem to be criticizing psakim.
“It is beyond question that most of the reponsa concerning electricity ere based on incomplete or misunderstood information.”
I’m guessing you might not like this answer, but what I heard a rav once say: the gedolim knew that electricity was assur for Shabbos, based on their expertise of Shabbos. So having a detailed knowledge of how exactly electricity works (or even which exact melacha it violates) is immaterial.
“The operators melacha consists of sitting and watching a computer monitor.”
Really? They never even press a key, or move the mouse, or anything? What an awesome job.
“Please note that I have been building and operating power plants for 50 years and I have a pretty good idea how they work. “
Appeal to authority fallacy. Ray Kaufman (if not you) also claims 50 years of experience building power plants, and he writes, “As a simple example, I have seen articles and Piskei Teshuva that refer to a “flow of electrons” This is not correct. Electrons don’t flow. The remain in their in their respective atoms.” This is simply not true. Electrons do have a net flow – that’s what an electrical current is. They just flow quite slowly, just over an inch a minute in typical house wiring. Given that the protons and neutrons of the copper wiring do not move, then yes, actually, the electrons do leave their respective atoms.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“Having a few solid, well-adjusted BT’s is better than having a big Chabad House full of wacky, quasi-frum am haartzim clinging on to unjustifiable shittos without ever being corrected only to have children who never fit into a real frum community.”
From my experience, the BTs who have the most success are the ones who move into established frum communities and are willing to accept that they are not the smartest or most knowledgeable person in the room. Part of the “wackiness” you’re describing is quite simply a lack of experience, and a misunderstanding of what’s important. A Shabbos spent in a frum community with a frum family teaches way more than a book.
Also, Chabad kiruv tries to “ignite the spark” with a focus on performing a mitzvah, and they are very good at this, but someone new to frumkeit needs considerable guidance. They need to be taught the priorities, so they’re not sitting in shul without tzitzis or a tallis while very makpid on wearing a gartel. I also think that the discussions surrounding frum communities and culture should be honest and not sugarcoated. Successful BTs are coming to Judaism because they want to follow Hashem. Not people.
n0mesorah,
“I don’t know if that would work. You don’t make strong balei teshuvah through hashkafa battles.”
I don’t think AviraDeArah was suggesting to wage a “hashkafa battle” with a potential BT, but rather to explain Jewish values clearly, honestly, and (most important) respectfully. This is not an easy thing to do, but if Jewish values are misrepresented in an attempt to make frumkeit more palatable to someone with a very different values system, they will ultimately feel betrayed.
Sam Klein,
“BOTH Rocket ships that blew up & killed everyone on board ( Shuttle Columbia with Israeli & Shuttle of 1986 with a lady ) had jews on it. What is Hashem’s message from this? Hashem says i put you here on Earth to do your job don’t go to another planet & try to see other worlds.”
There have been other Jews in space on missions that did not end in tragedy. Also, the space shuttles were never designed to leave low Earth orbit. They were intended to be reusable vehicles that could bring people into orbit at the same time as large payloads.
Lostspark,
“Why has space travel capability regressed for 50 years when every other technology has advanced?”
Multiple reasons:
1. Do a Web search for a chart of NASA’s annual budget over the years, and this alone should answer your question. The US threw in an unbelievable amount of money to get the Mercury and Apollo Programs stood up.
2. The Apollo technology was designed quickly (“before this decade is out…”), and safety was the top priority, not cost efficiency. A moon mission was prohibitively expensive and most of the equipment was designed to be used just once.
3. A big motivator for early US space efforts was a technological arms race with the Soviet Union. The Soviets got an early jump on the US in rocketry and getting satellites and people into space, but they never had an answer to the Apollo program.
4. Space programs since Apollo have primarily focused on low Earth orbit. We now have tons of satellites up there, providing GPS, weather data, communications, telescopes, etc. It’s a much bigger benefit (and military concern) for a smaller cost.
5. This wasn’t a factor in the cancellation of the Apollo program, but subsequent research has shown that interplanetary space travel has dangers that weren’t fully realized in the 1960s and 1970s: damaging collisions with tiny objects, solar radiation, health issues from staying in low gravity for long periods of time.Zetruth,
“this platform was the wrong place to post anything”
Why?
n0mesorah,
“I basically learned how to read from this site. All the times you posted about corrupting kids? I was tht kid. And, thank you for the fascinating view of how we yidden can be schismatic.”
While the majority of participants in the CR are frum Jews, I think the CR only reflects the CR, and is not necessarily representative of the frum world.
“Should I continue?”
By all means!
akuperma,
“Then why do people opposed to “LOBBYISTS, CORPORATIONS, AND INTEREST GROUPS” frequently win elections.”
Because it sounds good, and talk is cheap.
“The results of elections in many countries show that the anti-elites frequently win.”
The problem is, “elites” is a euphemism for “my opponents”. For example, can you name a US president in modern times who can really reject the label “elite”? Or who won without any support from lobbyists, corporations, and interest groups?
“This suggests that those arguing that the government stinks are likely to really be complaining that they were outvoted and they are just sore losers”
I don’t think so.
Zetruth,
“but still the torah says one who study and doesn’t put this in practice, its considered vain..”
“Put this in practice” refers to proper performance of the mitzvos learned. Can you tell me where in the Torah your “sipur” about the holy grail can be found? And can you cogently explain its relevance, and what you expect us to “do” in response to it?
akuperma,
“The “superpower” of politicians is to figure what the [lobbyists, corporations, and interest groups] want and to give them enough of it so they get reelected.”
FTFY.
Zetruth,
“Are you MD?”
No, I’m a person, not one of the 50 states in the Union.
“While so many people are studying complex torah lessons, they seem to be out of touch with what is happening in the real world.”
You have it backwards. The Torah is our guide to the “real world.” What you call the “real world” I call the olam hasheker.
“am I entitled to have an opinion here?!”
I never said you didn’t.
Zetruth,
“It seems like no one is at the level of the coffee room here”
I was making a joke about decaffeinated coffee in reference to another thread.