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So Joseph, what do you make of the fact that the Torah permits a man to divorce his wife? In some circumstances, a man is required to divorce. And a perusal of the sources reveals some pretty small reasons that can justify a divorce. Based on your logic, therefore, would you say that the Torah IMPLORES us to divorce, cv”s?
Joseph,
You have failed to demonstrate with your sources that we are IMPLORED to hit.
And, do you have a response to my latest post?
Joseph,
Where in Tanakh, Dovid HaMelech, Chazal, and the Shulchan Aruch are we IMPLORED to use corporal discipline?
Joseph,
“So you’re not in the slightest worried that providing a child with corporal discipline for playing with fire may result in negative feelings leading him to become an arsonist but you are worried that providing a child with corporal discipline for being mechallel Shabbos may result in negative feelings leading him to become a mechallel Shabbos?”
You’re like a carpenter with a toolbox that only has a hammer, so every problem looks like a nail to you. The purpose of the extreme reaction by the matches is to convey, palpably, how scared you are by the act. If a young child tries to touch a hot pot and the parent says in a singsong voice, “oh honey, let’s not touch that pot, it’s hot”, there is no sense of danger, and the child’s curiosity will push him to test the limit. But if the parent lets loose a primal scream, slaps the child’s hand away, and yells, “HOT! DON’T EVER TOUCH POTS ON THE STOVE!”, the child will associate a fearful experience with the stove. It’s then up to the parent to help the child process that experience, telling him how scary it was, and that he yelled not because he was angry, but because he was scared for the child.
Shabbos is very different. First of all, young children have no understanding of melachos or muktze, and they have to be gradually taught what to do. You wouldn’t punish a 2 year old for not knowing how to drive a car, right? Because it’s a gradual process, children already know from experience that they won’t be injured if they play with an electronic toy, draw a picture, or flip on a light. So trying to make it into a scary experience or spanking them is counterproductive. If you want to utilize a strong reaction to demonstrate the seriousness of chillul Shabbos for a child who is old enough to know, burst into tears.
The little I know,
“Translating this into the vocabulary I chose, there are times when compliance is so critical that teaching is secondary to compliance. This doesn’t teach the child safety, which still needs to be done.”
I agree with this 100%.
“Bottom line is that discipline rarely teaches. It controls. And in instances of safety risks, that is appropriate.”
I think you and I have very different definitions of “discipline”, which we’ve hashed out in another thread before.
klugeryid,
“Hypothetical”
Whew. Because it seems that the assumption in your hypothetical is that a parent child relationship is purely transactional, and that is not healthy.
klugeryid,
“We both agree, we’re just haggling over price.
So now the question is what’s worse
A child playing with matches or a child being מחלל שבת?”Nope. I agree with WinnieThePooh, but couldn’t disagree with you more.
The use of physical force in each scenario WinnieThePooh described is intended to stop the dangerous act as quickly as possible, not to provide chinuch. Smacking the hand away is the quickest way to prevent it from getting burned on the stove. Yanking the kid away from the street is intended purely for protection, and physically separating fighting siblings is to prevent injury.
klugeryid,
How old is this child, or are you writing about a hypothetical situation?
1,
“I don’t think we were put here for a 9-5 job and to commute.”
We have so much to be thankful for to live in this generation, where technology has eased so many dangers and burdens in our lives. However, I agree with you that the model of a far from home daily job that has prevailed since the Industrial Revolution is far from optimal for family life. Family farmers and shopkeepers with a downstairs storefront had way more access to their wives and children than people do today, where full time workers leave when their children are waking up, and come home close to their bedtime. I hate it, but that’s the way the world is currently set up, and we have to do the best we can with what we have.
Participant,
“why does the prez begin w/ “Madam speaker, mr. VP…..”
The VP is closer in line than speaker.
?”I think the President addressed Speaker (of the House) Pelosi first because he was in the House chamber, and then the Vice President (head of the Senate).
1,
“Do you feel you accomplish your life’s mission, at your job or business.”
I am blessed to have a job that I like to do, but no, it is not my life’s mission. It is part of my responsibilities to accomplish my life’s mission.
What if you spent that time finishing shas?”
My wife and kids would get pretty hungry, and the bank, power, and water companies wouldn’t be pleased either.
Shopping613,
“Why is it a holiday “given to the women”?”
My understanding is that Rosh Chodesh was given because the women in the midbar did not panic like the men who thought Moshe Rabbeinu had died, a time when things seemed really dark like the moon becomes dark immediately prior to Rosh Chodesh, and they refused to give over their gold. They continued to have faith that the light of Hashem’s promises would come. Due to this, Jewish women merit Rosh Chodesh, which stands at the doorway of the transition from the dark new moon to the bright full moon.
1. What does the J in Donald J Trump stand for? Jay
2. How many hours of sleep does the ADA recommend for a 12-year-old? Flouride toothpaste, twice a day or after meals
3. After how many years must your car registration be renewed? In my state, 2
4. What state do you live in? Denial
5. What is the record high temperature for your state on today’s date? Which station?
6. Who wrote the magna carta? You did
7. What types of mushrooms are poisonous? The poisonous ones
8. Who is the current governor of West Virginia? Joseph
9. How many apples grow on the average red delicious tree per year? 1
10. Who invented the emoticon? Al GoreDaasYochid,
“I would word that differently, although this is probably what you meant:
The yeshiva cares about obtaining skills (reading, analysis, etc.) as much as or more than learning that specific sugya.”
That is exactly what I meant, but I don’t see what was problematic with my wording.
DaasYochid,
“Would you say that the shiurim you paticipate in give you a path to independent learning, or would a chavrusa be required for that?”
I think the shiurim provide a path, but it is a painfully slow one. Learning with a chavrusa and a shiur is the best option.
zahavasdad,
“Do we sacrafice the 30% who cannot learn without it or do we hurt the 70% who can”
My understanding is that the yeshiva cares about the process as much as or more than the result. Therefore, if 30% can’t learn without it, the yeshiva should be helping them to learn how to learn without it.
I do not have a yeshiva background, unfortunately, and have experience both using Artscroll independently and learning with a regular Vilna shas at shiurim. Both the Artscroll and the shiurim provide translations, so I don’t see that as the big difference maker.
Pros of Artscroll
1. You can make forward progress independent of a shiur.
2. The elucidation and extensive comments help incredibly with understanding what’s going on.Cons of Artscroll
1. The layout does not encourage proper review – I find that I remember much less from the sugyos I learn with Artscroll alone, and it does not become “mine”, if that makes sense.
2. The translation does not capture the pithy language of the gemara, and I find the latter to be much more engaging.
3. You don’t pick up on the words and phrases that are key to unlocking what’s going on, and can then be applied elsewhere. In other words, Artscroll does not teach you how to learn, so there is no path to becoming less reliant on it.Takes2-2tango,
“MY POINT EXACTLY.
BALEIBATTIM WAS THE NORM FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS ,YET THEY SOMEHOW JNEW HOW TO LEARN.”Some did, but many did not.
“BESIDES, THEE BALLEIBATIM WHO YOU ARE ACCUSING OF NEEDING ARTSCROLL TO LEARN A PIECE OF GEMARA,FOR THE MOST PART ALL LEARNED IN LARGE YEHIVOS,GOT MARRIED AND BECAME BALLEI BATIM.”
Like high school math, unfortunately there are some people who did what they needed to do to “graduate”, and don’t use it too much after that.
The little I know,
Why do you assume that you are automatically the expert in the room, when you have no idea who the other posters are? Your appeal to the vague idea of “studies” holds absolutely no water. And while your faith in scientific rigor makes for a good read, have you conducted a thorough literature review to make sure there aren’t other studies with different results? Is it possible you are overstating the scope of the research? And how can we know that you are interpreting the studies you allude to correctly if you fail to cite them?
The little I know,
“I am declaring that yeshivos, rarely if ever, have responsibility for the crimes committed. If you can prove they do, with policies that are the structure of the yeshiva, you have a case.”
You are forgetting about the possibility of an institution that fails to follow its stated policies.
1,
“What’s the name of the niggun that is sung on Shabbos Auf Ruf, when bringing the chosson to shul?”
Gehennom on the Wabash.
edited
coffee addict,
“Additionally most shuls daven past סזק״ש according to the מג״א
People who are מקפיד daven hashkama”Or they make sure to say krias shema before the zman, like at the table on Friday night after dark.
Gadolhadorah,
“How does that solve the Magid’s problem??”
Easy. He’s upset that his wife is “turning up” too early in the davening, so I proposed a solution where she does not have to alter her arrival time, but now arrives at the proper time he thinks a woman should arrive.
“He is obviously dealing with a complex “relationship” issues”
I solved the problem he presented to the CR. Let’s not go out looking for more problems.
Switch to a hashkoma davening so that when she turns up, they’re already halfway through the leining.
DaasYochid,
“And the potential for a man to be matched decreases with age more slowly than for a woman.
Again, that doesn’t change the numbers, it just makes it even worse because it increases the age gap, and makes it even harder for women in a certain age group.”
I’d say it the other way around. The age gap due to straight population growth makes the cultural marriageability gap even worse.
DaasYochid,
“Blockquotes look horrible no matter how you use them.
Right, Avram in MD?”
They looked fine back in the days when we had subtitles…
DaasYochid,
“Why wouldn’t it be? What would be a bigger factor?”
I don’t know, I think there are multiple potential factors, and I’d be glad to list some I think may be at play, with the caveat that it’s speculative. I think a subset of available men (full-time learners) are more prized culturally, so a larger population of women are trying to be matched with a smaller population of men from the outset. And the potential for a man to be matched decreases with age more slowly than for a woman.
The population growth rates being thrown around here, however, are inflated by an order of magnitude, and it is highly unlikely that a 2-3 year marriage age gap within this growth regime alone is the primary reason men get significantly more shidduch opportunities than women.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“You have a room of 50 boys and 60 girls. How do they all get married without 10 single girls leftover?”
“There are more girls in a later generation than there are boys in an earlier one; that’s just fact when you have a growing population. This is what those of you in denial do: to compensate for your embarrassing lack of understanding of basic statistics”
You set up 50 boys and 60 girls as an illustration of the shidduch crisis, and then lectured Syag that she doesn’t understand basic statistics? Lolol. The typical age gap in marriage is not 40 years. Sure an age gap in marriage in an increasing population is one potential factor at play, but I seriously doubt that it is anywhere near the primary driver for the larger number of single women. And to focus exclusively on it causes you to ignore other factors that may be more impactful.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“CTL had claimed that if someone had read his posts from years of being a CR user, they would see how great and accepting he is of other socio-economic classes.”
I reread his post, and can see how his claims to be “middle class” seem out of touch with what middle class actually means in light of his frequent and casual references to his wealth. And that welcoming increased taxes ignores the fact that such policies can harm others, though, to be fair, I’m guessing he doesn’t favor raising taxes on people with smaller incomes. MDG hit back on those points, but I don’t really see how they insult other people. Can you clarify?
CTLAWYER,
“The OP posed a physical impossibility To vote for a dead non-US citizen who was also a non-member of the Democrat Party in a primary.”
1. While we’re picking nits, it’s the Democratic Party, not Democrat. The latter is typically used as an epithet.
2. I also believe the OP was a troll post, but surely you understand that it was a hypothetical, and thus being literally possible was not really relevant? If you want, interpret the question as, “if a person like Stalin was running in a primary…”Neville ChaimBerlin,
“Notice how I never said the word debate or anything synonymous with it in the quote to which this was replying. I’m not sure how you read that as having anything to do with debates or winning.”
Quite obvious from the entirety of your post. Later in the post you wrote, “arguments in a magical, intellectual way” as an expansion of your point. And debate is certainly a synonym of argument. As far as winning being your perceived goal of conversation, that is evident in your references to discussions being pointless because nobody’s ever convinced. The vast majority of human conversation does not consist of one person trying to convince another of something.
“No more meaningless than applying it to anyone who personally offends you with a different opinion. Real men can take it and don’t beg for censorship whenever they can’t take back what they dish out.”
Not once have I been personally offended by anyone’s opinion in this thread. Nor have I begged for censorship. And I bet that had you rewritten your post minus the personal insults instead of complaining about censorship, you could have had your comebacks to CTLAWYER posted already.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“By interesting, you mean conversations where both sides end up feeling deep-seated anger, but cover it up in the name of civility as is the custom in the phony world of intellectualism.”
Not every conversation is a debate. And the goal isn’t always to “win.”
“The way you’re looking at this would mean everyone taking a vow of silence for all eternity.”
You don’t seem to be finding me very silent 🙂
“This idea that you can word arguments in this magical, intellectual way that won’t offend anyone and will be healthy for for the world is a total myth that only exists in the upper tier of American society.”
There is way more to human interaction than the extremes of argument and silence. Not every conversation is persuasion-based, and even when attempting to persuade someone, argumentation is not necessarily needed or desirable.
“Most of us (deplorable rednecks who still know how to apply common sense) have gravitated towards the results-based approach like that of Trump (or Ocasio-Cortez on the inverse)”
My Southern bonafides may well exceed yours.
“and away from the pointless approach of Jeb Bush types that seems to be rooted in getting 90-year-olds to think, “hmm, he talks nice… What a nice young man he is…”
Jeb Bush got two terms as Florida governor, and his brother two terms as President. Not shabby for a pointless approach.
“You had to risk offending me just now by responding to my last comment, right? I could have gotten really upset at you for disagreeing and accusing me of a aveira, right? Does that mean you did an issur? No. There is not document or scripture that guarantees a human right to “not be offended.” That would cripple mankind.”
That’s a cop-out that would render the entire concept of onas devarim meaningless. We are not responsible for each and every feeling that someone may theoretically have in response to any statement, but it is forbidden by the Torah to say something intentionally designed or reasonably certain to hurt the feelings of another Jew.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“It’s much more fun and even productive to just hurt the feeling of everyone you don’t like.”
Sorry, onas devarim is forbidden by the Torah. We can’t pick and choose which mitzvos to follow because we think it’s fun or productive. I don’t care one whit what people may think is obsolete in whatever era. We are Jews, and as the people of Hashem we have a higher standard to uphold. Our Torah does not change with the times. And CTLAWYER doing it first does not make it ok.
As for your point about political discourse, if you admittedly have never tried a more civil tone, then you cannot assert whether respectful dialog is effective or not. I have relatives on both extremes of the political spectrum, and have had very interesting conversations with them all.
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“CTL immediately responded to this thread by attacking the OP’s intelligence and then calling groups of the country rednecks. He was not censored.”
Maskim that CTLAWYER’s insult in his response to the OP and his later denigration of rural America were not acceptable things to say. Perhaps those posts should have been edited or deleted by the moderators. While they were not censored, they were censured by other posters 🙂
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“Because you love CT’s crazy leftist ideas and don’t want to let anyone see the opposition?”
So far, 2scents, anonymous jew, klugeryid, MDG, 1, Avi K, Takes3tomakemangos, lakewhut, and Non Political have all either supported the OP or posted rebuttals to things CTLAWYER has written, so I don’t see this supposed conspiracy to silence “the opposition” (and it’s strange that you view yourself as “the opposition”). Maybe tone down the personal attacks and your posts will go through unedited. On another thread, you declared me to be your enemy because I dared, heaven forbid, to espouse a view that was different from yours. Politics really seem to trigger you. Calm down. Republicans are not your team. Yidden are, like it or not. Even if some of them have political views that don’t align completely with yours.
takahmamash,
“We have some sem girls from Darchei Binah coming for Shabbat in a few weeks.”
I recommend having a three-day supply of water (figure 1 gallon per person per day), and a three-day supply of non-perishable food. Make sure your prescriptions are filled, fill your vehicle’s gas tank, and keep important documents in a safe, watertight location. Have a portable radio and plenty of batteries and flashlights handy. If needed, I can help you board up your windows.
“Will they be outgoing or nebby?”
You will be unable to hear anything over the screaming and shouting.
“Are they friendly like out-of-towners or cliquey?”
They’re equally unfriendly to everyone.
“Will they be serious learners?”
They have swords and have been known to attack anyone who disturbs their learning.
“Will they actually be learning the material or memorizing?”
They learn it so well that they memorize it.
“What about chesed – do they have a chesed day?”
They do chessed every day of the year, so they have a mean day. I think the mean day is coming up on a Shabbat in a few weeks…
“What about wearing Gap sweatshirts and flats?”
I’ve heard they eat them.
“Will they look at me if I speak to them?”
They can shoot lasers from their eyes, so probably better if they don’t.
“Will they go to shule?”
They only go to shuls without an “e”.
“Help with the dishes?”
They stack them up high in order to break them all at once.
“What about serving?”
It’s assur to play tennis with them, but they’d probably clobber you.
“do they expect only Badatz hechshirim?”
You must grow everything on-site under the constant supervision of the seminary. Hope you’ve gotten that started by now.
1,
“If Stalin promised yeshiva funding, would you still endorse him and vote for him in a primary?”
הֱווּ זְהִירִין בָּרָשׁוּת, שֶׁאֵין מְקָרְבִין לוֹ לָאָדָם אֶלָּא לְצֹרֶךְ עַצְמָן. נִרְאִין כְּאוֹהֲבִין בִּשְׁעַת הֲנָאָתָן, וְאֵין עוֹמְדִין לוֹ לָאָדָם בִּשְׁעַת דָּחְקוֹ
Both parties have elements in their platforms that would be helpful to the Jewish community. Both have elements that are contrary or antithetical to Torah values. As a religious Jew, I think it’s foolish to get married to one party and sling mud at the other, like it’s “your” baseball team vs a rival. One day the Republicans control the government. The next day it’s the Democrats. Both will court Jewish votes when it serves them, and will stop when it no longer serves them. Why not judge each candidate as s/he comes and vote for who you think will do the best job in that office, and avoid casting American Jewry onto transactional and ephermeral support while antagonizing half of the other people in the country?
I said, “OK Google, can asking ok Google have bad results?” and it returned this thread.
Also, compensation to Federal workers is about 15 percent of discretionary spending, which itself is only about 30 percent of the Federal budget. So your “25% payroll deduction” causes quite a bit of harm for very little fat trimming.
Joseph,
“A quarter of the government has been closed for almost a month and life goes on.”
You do realize that more than half of the workforce in the closed government agencies are continuing to work every day with no pay, right? Most businesses can go on for a short while half staffed and still do the essential functions to keep afloat, for example during the non-Jewish holiday season, but that won’t work long term. And eventually the staff will get upset about the missing paychecks. FTA and DHS employees continue to work so the airports stay open. FDA and USDA inspectors are still make sure the food and drug supplies are safe, and NWS employees continue to issue weather warnings.
Meno,
“I’m Hoping this lasts until April 15 so I won’t have to pay taxes this year.”
If you’re a normal employed person, your taxes have already been deducted from your paychecks all year long. So yes, if you owe a bit more you might not have to pay it until the government reopens, but if you’re due a refund, you won’t get that either.
What’s the difference between luck and mazel?
Takes2-2tango,
“Does any one know how to get this politically trashy news paper from being delivered to my home?”
I don’t know the best way to stop delivery to your home, but giving them lots of free publicity probably wasn’t it.
Gadolhadorah,
No need to be mean. Bestcpa is seeking information about equipment he has never used. He never said that he intends to do something dangerous.
Mmm, that was a good burger. Why is everyone looking at me like that?