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Neither. ChromeOS with crouton, or Linux for me. Apple products are expensive status symbols for most use cases, and the quality of your Windows experience invariably degrades with time.
Milhouse,
““Boro” is a careless shortening of “borough””
Not necessarily careless. There can be thoughtful reasons for shortening a location name, such as for signage.
akuperma,
“The rising divorce rates, among both Jews and goyim, have been taking place over a long time.”
Divorce rates are not linear with time, and in fact have decreased in recent years due to millennials marrying later (and less frequently) and staying married longer.
“A strong argument can be made that the cause is the use of antibiotics in general, and improved obstetric care in particular.”
Uhh, no, that does not explain the dramatic rise in divorce rates from the 1950s to the 1990s.
“In the good old days, few marriages lasted all that long since one (of both) of the spouses would die. It used to be very rare for a marriage to last 25 years. An unfortunate side effect of marriages lasting so long is that leaves time for the couple to “grow apart”, which leads to divorce.”
I’m not sure why you’re obsessed with infant and maternal mortality in “the good old days” and use it as a simplistic explanation for everything under the sun. It doesn’t even come close to fitting here. The average number of years that divorcees were married in the U.S. is 8 years. The divorce process takes about a year, and the average number of years a spouse considers divorce before acting on it is 3 years. This indicates that significant marital trouble leading to divorce on average has begun after around 4 years of marriage. That’s not a long time at all to “grow apart.”
klugeryid,
“Who is this thread smearing?”
Satmars. Witness the OP:
“filthy rich Satmar father from Willimsburg … this Satmar lowlife … (PS: Keep fighting “tziyonis”!)”
Replace the instances of “Satmar” with “Jew” in the OP and you’d have something that a neo-Nazi would be proud to write.
“Actually better than making UNSUBSTANTIATED RUMORS that the victim was involved in bad stuff.”
Better does not make right. Stealing only $10,000 from someone is “better” than stealing $100,000.
Thick or thin, cheesy or not, hot or cold, I have never met pizza I did not like.
klugeryid,
“Let’s talk numbers of possibility”
The OP asked for what the average frum family paid for groceries per week, not what amount is theoretically possible to spend to avoid malnutrition. I’m also not sure that your menu would meet even that goal if followed for more than a month or two. And I think some of your estimates on how much food is needed are a bit low.
Family of six children – I’m assuming two parents as well, so 8 mouths to feed.
Two Dozen eggs $2 – This would theoretically work for breakfast, but I hope everyone likes eggs, or at least does not have an egg sensitivity. A breakfast of nothing but scrambled eggs wouldn’t work for most families. Any alternatives add to the cost.
Bottle milk $2.40 – Everyone’s limited to 8oz per day, not a drop more. And no milk at all on the weekends?
Cream cheese $4 – Everyone gets a 1 micron thick schmear on their sandwich? I think two containers is needed here, so make this $8, unless doing cholov stam. And lunch is nothing but a cream cheese sandwich? I guess you can have the glass of milk with it? Yes you’ll mention extras below that can be sides. We’ll get there.
Two boxes macaroni (constantly on sale at shop rite) $1.76 You don’t have any sides with the mac and cheese, so the family of 8 will need more food for supper than this. So either more mac and cheese or another reliance on the extras below.
Total $10.16 and you’ve fed your family amply. Times five days $50.80 for the week – Breakfast was sufficient for those who like or can eat eggs, but a cream cheese sandwich and glass of milk for lunch and a small serving of mac and cheese per mouth for supper is not “ample.” And yes, the extras below will try to mitigate this, but we’ll see how well that works.
You can add whatever you want to this basic.
Brick of cheese $14 – this is a lowball, especially if having mac and cheese multiple times in a week. 2-3 bricks per week is a more realistic estimate. Tomato sauce is a cheaper topping on pasta, but then you lose a protein.
Bottle ketchup $3
Three orange juice $9 – Everyone’s limited to 3.4oz of orange juice a day over 7 days?
2 Family packs of chicken bottoms $24 – Ok, so we eat supper on Sunday, with maybe some leftovers on Monday for one or two people in the family sick of cream cheese sandwiches.
Package of hot dogs $10 – Ok, so we eat lunch on Sunday. But lunch being one bare hotdog per person doesn’t seem “ample”, even if taken with ketchup.
Fruits and vegetables $50 – This is where you kind of gave up on the breakdown and ended up lowballing considerably. A cream cheese sandwich for lunch on weekdays and a single un-bunned ketchup-covered hotdog on Sunday followed by a 6 hour wait until supper isn’t really ample or healthy, so let’s add an apple as a side. Apples typically run around $1.20/lb, and a single apple weighs about a third of a pound. So an apple per person per day over a week runs you around $22.40. That doesn’t leave much for other produce, sides, or snacks (potatoes, carrots, greens, peas/corn, maybe you’d put rice and beans here, other fruit) that’s critical to making this diet nutritious and sustainable.CTLAWYER,
“My comment is that I find the attacks amusing. It is not limited to the CR.”
No, your comment was that you always find the attacks amusing, which indicates prior knowledge. You know what types of responses are likely to your words, and I don’t see how the results of potential onas devarim or lifnei iver could be amusing.
“but when my mother gave me her engagement diamond for Mrs. CTL SIL was seething with jealousy, claimed it belonged to her since I was not the eldest son”
Something tells me that had little to do with the diamond itself, and more about how welcome (or not) she felt in your parents’ family. Especially considering that your mother singled her out for exclusion in the will. Had the issue just been about getting a diamond, your brother could’ve easily ameliorated her feelings by buying her one.
” Just an excuse, they could not afford to have one put in, so they swam by us or my MIL.”
Actually your wife’s younger sister is acting in a very smart way. Drowning is R”L the biggest killer of children under 4 in the U.S. other than birth defects, and most of these drownings occur in unattended swimming pools. By bringing her children to your pool to swim, she gets the best of both worlds – access to a private pool and the ability to prevent access to the pool when it’s not swimming time. If I lived by close relatives with a pool and who welcomed my family to come swim in it, I would certainly not build one on my property, even if I could afford 10 of them.
CTLAWYER,
“It’s always fun to watch those who don’t have or can’t afford, make fun or find fault with those who have or can afford.”
I was mostly on your side in this discussion until this post. You are absolutely correct that a person’s individual and independent financial decisions are nobody else’s business. However, nobody is driving by your property in an old beater with squeaky belts and peeling paint and glowering at you for having tennis courts and a swimming pool. You are choosing to post your business publicly on the CR, a forum that is intended for discussion. And by writing “it’s always fun to watch”, you demonstrate that you are intentionally provoking a certain type of response.
Joseph,
“What are the Democrat run states doing wrong leading to them leading the nation in anti-Semitism?”
California and New York happen to have the highest numbers of Jews in the U.S., as well as the largest total populations. Rhode Island, for example, has a democratic governor and only had 5 incidents in the ADL report.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“So if I invite you for the day meal on Shavuos, you won’t ask me if the invitation is for the first day or last day of Shavuos?! You will carefully ask me if it is for the first day or second day (not c”v calling it the “last day”).”
I’ve never heard the second day of Shavuos called the “last” day. And neither have you – see your OP. And it would be technically incorrect to call it such.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“classic circular logic”
His point was not circular. You just intentionally failed to understand it.
You should wear your Purim costume.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“Luckily, my 60 pounds of kosher meat nullifies her one pound of treif meat, so now my poy has 60 pounds of kosher meat.”
“She says, one of those pounds in this pot is mine, and if it is now kosher, bonus to me. You can’t replace my meat with another meat – give me meat from this pot.
I say, no, you put in a treif pound into my pot, that is all you deserve, to you get back a treif pound of meat, the koshering part is mine, because of my 60 pounds of meat. You didn’t put in a kosher pound of meat, why should i give you back a kosher pound of meat?!”
You should give her 1lb of meat from your pot, and you will still have 60lbs of meat in your pot. A miracle?
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
If you wanted to play-act the Chofetz Chaim in the wagon, you should’ve killed horses, not halachos.
outsiderlookingin,
Why did you choose outsiderlookingin as your username?
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“so are you saying in a case of pikuach nefesh, one is better off eating human meat than a treif chicken?!”
No, because in that situation, the laws of kashrus become suspended due to the pikuach nefesh, so the desecration of a meis is unnecessary to sustain life and remains forbidden.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“I order a soup and notice the waiter’s finger slipped into the soup.
Is the soup still kosher? The soup had in it a human finger (which is ossur to eat, not to mention, aver min a chai)!”
Did the finger impart noticable taam into the soup? If so, why would you want to eat it?
Haimy,
“Bachurim in Yeshiva don’t want to go home knowing how sleep deprived & nervous their parents are according to a veteran Mechanech.”
How about the bochrim go home, roll up their sleeves, and pitch in so their parents can get some sleep?
ftresi,
“Not at all. My other half would still going nuts cleaning the house even if we went away. As much as I hate Pesach at home, I do NOT want to spend it in a hotel either”
I think your poor attitude and resentment towards your wife is much more damaging than her “going nuts” cleaning. If housecleaning (organizing, weeding out unneeded things, scrubbing soap scum in the shower, etc.) is causing delays or stress in Pesach prep, then perhaps you can offer to help with housecleaning in Shevat or Adar, so that Nissan need not be overloaded. A clean house is much easier to check for chometz than a messy one. If she is feeling miserable because of the Pesach cleaning, mention your concern to her and if appropriate, point out what’s required and what’s not. Otherwise, take a deep breath and realize that not everything in life is going to be fun, so make the best of it. And thank her – she is taking a huge burden off of you by doing the cleaning.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“Ah,a, so you “rely” on the rov, but there is room to be machmir and be “choshesh l’mi’uta” (worry about the minority that exist that are treif). – I stress as a chumra, which is what my point was all along.”
No, not really. It’s not a legitimate chumra to deny the validity of a Torah principle such as rov. It’s making up your own Torah like the karaites did, and there are serious halachic problems with that.
Mammele,
“I’m breaking my head over the possibility that Rebbetzin G. Is actually a reincarnation of Poppa Bar Abba. Thoughts?”
Nah. Popa did not mess with halacha when he trolled: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lying-on-ywn/#post-596054
What kind of cheese? Cheddar? Mozzarella? Muenster?
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“Sam Klien – you are playing with the word “dependent” on others besides Hashem. Hashem gives us life, yet you “depend” on your food to live. Would you die without food?”
After two days you serve up this nice softball to Sam Klein? Had Bnei Yisroel not complained about the lack of food and water in the midbar, they would have had no need to eat or drink. We see this by the fact that they never complained about their clothing, and their garments never wore out in 40 years. כִּי לֹא עַל-הַלֶּחֶם לְבַדּוֹ יִחְיֶה הָאָדָם–כִּי עַל-כָּל-מוֹצָא פִי-ה’, יִחְיֶה הָאָדָם
Also, I think Sam Klein or an alias of his has stated in the past that he fasts each and every single day because of our terrible, terrible generation of which he’s ashamed to be a part, yet he continues to post on the CR.
“But the two dependencies are not identical.”
Exactly. But it is precisely the blurring of the lines between these two “types” of dependency that have caused consternation with some elements of Chabad. And your whole purpose in this troll thread is to willfully obfuscate this issue.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“I think Sam Klien made clear that he is AGAINST middlemen and used the following examples:”
Sam Klein is a known troll who writes as if he fancies himself on the level with Yosef Hatzaddik, for whom it was an aveira to ask the sar hamashkim to put in a good word for him with paroh, whereas for us it would be a normal and even required part of our histaldus. Despite the fact that he is likely mocking the concept of emunah CV”S, what he wrote is technically not inconsistent with histaldus. If you, for example, go to a doctor for medical treatment but maintain an awareness that the success of the treatment comes from Hashem, then the doctor is not a middleman between you and Hashem.
This is ok:
You —————> Hashem
Another —————> Hashem
This, however, is not ok:
You —————> Another —————> Hashem
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“clearly you disagree with the statement made by Sam Klien – “A person should not need a middleman (Rebbe or rav etc…) to turn to for help when he needs help from Hashem. He should go Directly to Hashem and ask for whatever he lacks. ””
It depends on what he means by middleman. If a person CV”S thinks “I cannot relate directly to Hashem, so I will have this rebbe relate to Him for me…”, then I agree 100% with what Sam Klein said. If, however, he means that one should not consult a rav or rebbe for help in his own avodas Hashem, then I disagree 100%.
“Your position is that it’s ok to ask a LIVING person for help to daven on your behalf.”
I think that position is universal.
“Seems the position of the Pri Megadim is that it IS ok to turn to the dead for help to daven on our behalf (as Kalev did).”
Yes – but that issue is whether asking the dead to daven for you is a violation of the issur to consult the dead or not, which isn’t really what’s being debated on the Chabad threads regarding the Lubavitcher Rebbe (some don’t even think he’s dead!). That issue that is whether Chabad’s relationship to its rebbe violates the issur of having gods other than Hashem.
“Yet many are against the chassidic way of asking the Rebbe for a brocha when a yeshuah is needed, claiming as Sam Klien did (and I heard this often), why go to others, you can daven directly to Hashem yourself?!”
Because perhaps they are seeing it as my first interpretation of “middleman.”
“Lately, we of the Litvish world have begun treating our Gedolim as Rebbes and asking them for brochas and yeshuos. We adopted the chassidic ways!”
I don’t think this is accurate.
TomomTihyeh,
“which ikkarei emunah am I denying in that post, exactly?”
2, 3, 5, and 7.
YW Moderator-29,
“You probably grind your own wheat as well.”
Only in my homeopathic mac recipes.
Boil some macaroni noodles and dump ’em into a pan. Then mix in grated cheddar/mozzarella/muenster and a little milk. Finally, sprinkle more shredded cheese on top and bake. You’ll never go back to the boxed stuff.
TomimTihyeh,
You are either a false-flag troll or you are trying to set the world record for the number of ikkarei emunah denied in one thread.
Rebbetzin Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“Going to a kever (like kever Rochel) and asking the t zaddik to help you – to davening for you…sounds soooo LUBAVITCH.”
Whether intentionally or not, you are blurring the line between permitted and forbidden, which is a dangerous thing to do. To pray to a person is absolutely forbidden according to all opinions. And I think most opinions hold that to directly ask a dead person to pray to Hashem on one’s behalf is also forbidden. Instead, one should pray to Hashem for mercy in the merit of the person buried there. Why then go to the kever? Because 1) there is an increased level of kedusha there, 2) it builds a more tangible connection between you and the person buried there, and 3) more generally, visiting kevarim reminds a person of his mortality, which can help spur teshuva.
As for seeking the help of a living tzaddik – there is no issur to ask someone living to daven on one’s behalf, or to seek a psak, bracha or advice. This is not setting up an intermediary. You still go to mincha after seeing the tzaddik and daven, and perform your own mitzvos. If, however, one CV”S start praying to the tzaddik, or thinks that it is he who has the power to help, that’s a dangerous error.
Avi K,
Can you do me a favor and actually respond to what I’m writing, rather than constructing a liberal strawman? I’m not philosophically opposed to capital punishment. I’m not denying that a non-Jewish government has the authority to do it. But given the fact that we as U.S. citizens are allowed a voice in government policy through voting or lobbying, my position is that the death penalty shouldn’t be used in the U.S.
“Leo Frank was lynched not executed. In fact, GA Gov. John M. Slaton commuted his sentence”
He was originally sentenced to death. He was lynched because of that commutation. And his killers were not prosecuted.
“the extent of Ethel Rosenberg’s guilt is still a matter of dispute”
Thanks for proving my point.
“I find it interesting that liberals are so concerned about people who have rap sheets longer than height but care nothing for unborn babies”
Are you directing this comment to me? Because if so, you obviously have either not read or not understood this thread.
Avi K,
“Avram, so what is your method? Any human system is flawed by definition.”
Here I’m going to sound a lot like ubiquitin: ideally capital punishment should be enforced with a Sanhedrin and righteous Jewish king in place. I do not know at what point between the current American criminal justice system and that ideal I would flip my view on the death penalty. Honestly I’m uncomfortable with it while Jews are in golus. Now why do I allow myself that “out” while disagreeing with ubiquitin’s application? Because to me, the risk of executing someone not guilty outweighs the benefits of the death penalty as it is applied in the U.S. By abortion, the risk of an optional but halachically allowed abortion being stayed (which I think would be quite rare, but ubiquitin disagrees) does not outweigh the benefit of protecting the unborn babies.
“However, it is necessary to have some system (see Ran, Derash 11). It should, of course, be tweaked as much as possible but there must be a system.”
There is a system. The question is, what part does the death penalty play in the U.S. system? To underscore the severity of sinning? Nope. To act as a deterrent? It’s quite bad at that too.
“Would you also oppose the death penalty for obviously guilty criminals like the Pittsburgh shooter”
Of course I think he’s deserving of death. You’re confusing the nature of my position. I’ll ask you: what about Leo Frank and Ethel Rosenberg?
Meno,
“Agav, there are those who are choshed that a potatoe is not hoadama and therefore are careful not to use potato.
What bracha do they make on it?”
Maybe he meant raw potato.
Avi K,
“then for what?”
I’m not opposed to the death penalty per se; my concern is that the U.S. system is too flawed.
Joseph,
“Do you oppose the death penalty for murder in the US?”
Yes.
“If so, could the law regarding capital punishment be enacted in any way that you’d support it (for murder or other crimes)?”
Not with jury trials, nor with the government serving simultaneously as witness (e.g., police), prosecutor, and judge.
ubiquitin,
“so in weighing the risks and benefits of both: on abortion the Government should stay out, and on battery make it illegal”
I’m not sure that we agree on what the risks and benefits are, nor what weights to apply to them.
Joseph,
“Now, of course, I’d support imprisonment (as the 21 U.S. states who currently outlaw adultery mostly prescribe in their penal codes) and capital punishment (as some states historically prescribed) as the penalty for that crime. I also think others here will agree with my position as such.”
Agree with prison, but I’m opposed to the death penalty as done in the U.S.
ubiquitin,
“Is your argument that:
a. No such cases exist
b. That is not enough to allow all abortions. So we should ban abortions (except where life threatening) and even those women who get a heter should be forced to carry to term
c. something else”The closest to my position (other than me trying to write out a C) is B. I think there’s a big difference between “risk to mother’s health and safety” and “life threatening”, so there can be way more nuance than the allow everything or allow nothing but death prevention dilemma that you’re presenting. As far as A, I don’t know that I’ve said no such cases exist, only that I think they are quite rare.
“As for recalcitrant husbands.
first of all, it isn’t clear that hitting is allowed. “And, per Rav Moshe ZT”L, it isn’t clear that the abortions we are discussing are allowed. So for consistency’s sake, if that’s a “first of all” on the recalcitrant husbands, it should also be a “first of all” on the abortions.
“what is the risk of allowing abortions? geheniom for people who practice without Rabbinic approval.”
No, it’s the loss of potential life. And the potential for outright murder in cases where the abortion fails and life is taken outside of the womb.
ubiquitin,
“This was YOUR quote : “have never heard any doctor say that it’s ok for a pregnant woman to go 26 hours without water”
you said that in response to my comment “for a healthy woman with a normal pregnancy there is (generally) no medical reason not to fast , worst case she goes into pre-term labor. no big deal””
Yes, but so what? I can give you the reasons, and you or your doctor cohorts can laugh at my doctor and assert your superior medical prowess or whatever you want to do. But I am not a medical professional. Who do I trust? The doctors we saw in exam rooms and our own rav, or the out-of-sight colleagues of a person on the Internet I’m having a conversation with? I don’t need to be an arbiter of what is medical Truth. You claimed that medical opinion is more stringent than rabbis. My own real life experience has told me otherwise. I stated thus, and I have no more to add.
“you are. My position is quite simple. The government should not enforce religion, at the same time they should allow woman who have a heter to have an abortion.”
Ergo enforcing or allowing for religion, as you perceive it.
“your last paragraph is confusing. IF there was a law banning eruvim I would oppose it, I’m not sure wh yyou think otherwise.”
Now you’re putting words into my mouth. A law banning eruvim would be unconstitutional due to the First Amendment and anti-discrimination laws. But neighborhoods and towns can set zoning laws intended to preserve a certain look and feel that happen to infringe on where and how an eruv can be constructed. Or they can build a superhighway right in the middle of an existing eruv, rendering it invalid. Would you support Jews being allowed to construct lechis and fences wherever they want, and having veto ability on any construction projects?
“that’s a lot of ifs.”
That’s why lawyers make big bucks and work long hours.
“I’m not bothered at all. I said from the get go, if a law could be passed that a woman who felt she needed an abortion had to have rabbinic approval I could get behind that.”
It’s easy to get behind a theoretical ideal that you know has no chance of passing in our current legal system.
“your one good point was regarding recalcitrant husbands.
That’s a good one it deserves its own response.”Well, I consider it an example of my primary point, so by all means let’s pursue that. It might be more fruitful than a talking-past-each-other fest. I don’t want to challenge the legendary ubiquitin/Health debates.
ubiquitin,
“do you think adultery should be ilegal?”
Absolutely. If the government is going to be involved in regulating marriage, than it has a responsibility to protect the rights of the spouses. Inasmuch as marriage is a contractual agreement that includes fidelity, there should be consequences for breach of contract. But even beyond that, adultery can cause psychological and even physical damage. To do that to another person should certainly be illegal. And note that I haven’t yet appealed to religion.
ubiquitin,
“Define “ok””
I’m not a doctor.
“nope, not my response at all.”
It certainly was here.
“you are confusing two aspects.”
No, I’m not confusing anything. You are creating an artificial distinction with the purpose of submitting abortion to a double standard.
“to illustrate: I would oppose The government regulating wear and when eruv can be built, which shita can be followed , should we require actual mechitzos etc etc. The Government should not be legislating religion.”
But I’m sure you support the government having laws forbidding assault and battery, even though it hamstrings beis din from taking halachically approved measures to enforce a recalcitrant husband to give a get. And laws certainly do regulate where and how eruvim can be built, your silly example of civil law butting into eruv shittos notwithstanding. Laws impact our religious observance all the time, and inasmuch as they foster public welfare, don’t create undue burdens, and aren’t unfairly targeting religious groups, we accept that this is the case. Yet suddenly you get all bothered by this when it comes to abortion. Why? Your protestations that you are actually more stringent on abortion than the rabbis ring hollow.
ubiquitin,
“If it was black and white ie Mothers life is at risk then halacha is Faaaaaar more “lenient” than halacha.”
I’m assuming your second “halacha” was intended to read “medical opinion.”
“I face this often when patients ask if they should fast yom kippur, I tell them if you want a heter you are better off talking to a Rav. Especially pregnant patients (though I’m not an OB ) for a healthy woman with a normal pregnancy there is (generally) no medical reason not to fast , worst case she goes into pre-term labor. no big deal.””
I have witnessed different medical opinions, and have never heard any doctor say that it’s ok for a pregnant woman to go 26 hours without water. And since we’ve had this discussion before, I’ll just save time and anticipate your response: “I asked my OB friend, and she said puk chazi.” But that doesn’t work, because apparently the rabbis give plenty of heterim, so how can we really see the impacts of 26 hours sans food and water when the weaker pregnant women are fasting in measures?
ubiquitin,
“Not quite, I mean Religion should have no bearing on law.”
Yet you are declaring religion (not wanting to impinge on the supposed rabbi-patient relationship) as your reasoning for supporting unlimited abortion on demand? Seems like cognitive dissonance.
ubiquitin,
“I’m sorry but you lost me a little bit. what tangent?”
Whether “allowed” and “should” are aligned or not. Obviously an extremely sensitive and complex topic.
“Who should decide if a Frum woman wants (or needs) an abortion: The government or her/her Rabbi and her Dr.”
If the law had a medical exemption, then it would still be the rabbi (for frum Jews) and doctor involved in the decision, no?
.“If halacha would allow (but not require) an abortion, do you support the government stopping them ?”
Leaving the current culture unchanged and given the mental health angle, I still find it hard to see a situation where the medical opinion (and hence the government) would be more stringent than the halachic opinion. And if it were so, then yes I think there should be a pause to figure things out.
My personal opinion, however, is that most pushes to “overturn” Roe v. Wade are more an attempt to garner votes than they are to truly stop abortions. It’s tilting at a windmill and unlikely to be successful. The problem is cultural at its root.
It’s a long shot, but I’d check with local natural/organic markets. They will cater to large Jewish populations in the area, and I have been pleasantly surprised to find gluten free or organic baked goods with reliable hashgochos in those types of stores, including hamentaschen. At the end of the day though, baking some yourself might be less of a hassle than calling and driving to numerous stores.
ubiquitin,
“So I’m not talking about where they would “require” per se, but rather where they would ALLOW
” That specific scenario, which is the linchpin of your pro-choice is consistent with Torah argument, seems incredibly unlikely to me.”
It might seem that way but I know of several, and colleagues who deal with this say it is “routine” (of course routine is relative a colleague estimates 1 in 2-3 weeks (that he encounters) .”
Well, not exactly. Because you just said that you were talking about ALLOW, which is a tangent that is probably not a good idea for us to get into, whereas I was talking about REQUIRE. What would these colleagues of yours say about the number of times halacha would require an abortion, but the medical establishment deems it unnecessary?
jackk,
“I debate this issue with strong minded , women’s lib oriented people they are astonished that anyone could even think of such a situation. They are amazed that someone can compare a fetus in a woman’s body to a baby outside it.”
What happens when a fetus survives an abortion attempt?
“Non pro lifers are further amazed at the callousness that pro lifers show to adult humans who are living but they are refugees, immigrants or of a lower financial status.”
Why are you pigeonholing me into a political stereotype? I believe in upholding life and human dignity at all stages.
jackk,
“You are only referring to abortion and not to the other aveira that was being talked about. What would you do with that avaira?”
I am admittedly less knowledgeable about the nuances and ramifications of that debate, so this question may seem naive, but why are the states and Federal government involved with marriage at all, when it is primarily a religiously defined status (holy matrimony)? Why not do away with marriage licenses and laws completely, and allow people to choose whoever they want to be their beneficiaries, power of attorney, etc? People can do that now; legal marriage just sets the spouse as the default.
Regarding abortion – I will argue with you because the debate of when life starts is at the crux of the abortion issue. Only in the Torah do we find a fetus is a human life.
Nah. Go to the library and check out any secular week-by-week style pregnancy book. They all refer to the baby with the language of personhood. The only time a baby becomes a non-human, non-living fetus is when discussing abortion.
Every non-jew living in America does not need to be restricted based on the Torah’s definition of when life starts.”
Pardon the slippery slope argument, but would you hold the same way if America decided that “life” starts at 4 months of age? For the first three months of life, in many ways, babies act more like fetuses than “sentient” beings. This is not a purely hypothetical question – there are “intellectuals” out there who make arguments such as this.
ubiquitin,
“Extremely unlikely???? It isn’t my field but I know of several such cases. I have spoken to those who are directly in the field and they say “extremely likely” is an understatement. “routine” is a better descriptor”
I’m not sure we’re referring to the same thing. I’m not referring to pregnancy complications where the medical establishment would advise abortion, R”L. I’m referring to an intersectional case where Torah authorities would require abortion, but the medical establishment (psychological and medical) deems it unnecessary. That specific scenario, which is the linchpin of your pro-choice is consistent with Torah argument, seems incredibly unlikely to me.