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Gadolhadorah,
“CA: Laura was not even within the “top 10” of the most powerful hurricanes to hit the U.S.”
I think it just made the cut, actually.
“Very fortunately, it was more of a wind and storm surge event than a wind event and the winds dropped down incredibly quickly once it made landfall.”
Unfortunately for the people in its path it was a serious wind and storm surge event. Hurricanes always weaken rapidly after landfall, but Hurricane Laura spread destructive winds more than 100 miles inland. And if we’re comparing Laura to Katrina, Katrina’s most devastating impacts came from storm surge and the subsequent breaking of the levees in New Orleans, not wind damage.
“While any loss of life is tragic, compare with Katrina, Harvey etc. the residents of Texas and LA were very fortunate.”
Not the residents of places like Cameron or Lake Charles. Just because the storm didn’t hit a highly populated area does not mean it was weak.
“Whats worrisome is that we’ve had several big storms in the past few years that were hyped as “monster storms” or the “biggest in history” and they turned out to be considerably less.”
Laura was a monster storm. And if you’re frequently let down by your sources of information, you should probably seek out better ones.
“People seem to be getting jaded to these predictions and more willing to “ride out the storm” rather than evacuating.”
I think response rates to the mandatory evacuation orders in southern Louisiana was pretty high. The local National Weather Service forecast office in Lake Charles even evacuated, and Laura’s winds shredded their doppler radar.
Ubiquitin and I had our own lengthy back and forth in this parallel thread a while back: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/halachically-okay-to-be-liberal. אֵין כָּל-חָדָשׁ, תַּחַת הַשָּׁמֶשׁ so I’ll try not to rehash what’s already been discussed ad nauseam in both threads. Reading through this one provoked a few thoughts.
I really don’t like the “unlimited abortion on demand should be kept because otherwise poor people will do it unsafely” argument. Although I disagree with ubiquitin, he attempts to justify his position from a Torah standpoint. This argument, however, does not come from the Torah, but the horrible state of affairs in American culture. People are pushed towards abortion due to a combination of economic and cultural factors. If someone has an unplanned pregnancy, their local Planned Parenthood or college health center will help them… if they choose abortion. But prenatal care? Ha! Good one. Tell me, is that truly “choice”? Is that pro-woman and pro-family? And I blame both Republicans and Democrats.
For Republicans, who cares how much it costs, or whether someone undeserving benefits, if programs that help make having a baby no longer a “burden” can eliminate economics as an abortion pressure? A big part of what the conservative -funded crisis pregnancy centers do for women is help them to navigate the red tape to get benefits such as Medicaid and WIC. Why cut those programs? In my perfect world, prenatal and maternal care would be free, paid parental leave would be a given, and if Republicans and Democrats want to fight over child care benefits vs tax credits for stay-at-home parenting, fine. Having a baby should be a blessing, not an “oh no, how are we going to do this?”
As for Democrats? Where to even begin? Before 2016, the Democratic Party Platform stated that abortion should be “legal, safe, and rare.” In 2016? They dropped the “rare.” Buttigieg and Sanders have essentially stated that pro-life Democrats are unwelcome in the tent, even though Democratic supported programs could be touted as pro-life to win back the heartland. There is a cultural push from the left to put abortion on a pedestal. Women who have abortions with no regrets are praised and featured in media stories. Women who feel regret or sadness are somehow broken, wrong, victims of right wing propaganda. The secular culture surrounding us is shifting to a place where it could very soon be considered morally wrong, CV”S, to prolong the life of sick elders or to allow the birth of children with potential disabilities or to parents without means.
These things – cutting or deriding programs that make it economically feasible for people to have children in an urban/suburban society that make children expensive, while removing morality from the culture and making abortion, assisted suicide, etc. into virtues, work in tandem. A pox on both houses, I say.
mw13,
“While that might not sound like a lot, if half the world gets sick (which is unfortunately fairly likely) we can expect to lose 1% of the world’s population.”
I think it’s highly unlikely that the denominator in these fatality rate estimates is known, so it’s extremely premature to be making these kinds of extrapolations.
klugeryid,
“josef never even insinuated that
dont interject your negativity into someone elses comment and then excoriate him on it”I have not once excoriated Joseph on this thread, nor even addressed him directly. Syag objected to what Joseph wrote, and it was pretty clear that you did not understand her objection, instead getting hung up on her colloquial reference to dan l’kaf zechus. The ream of halachic sources you and chash subsequently threw out don’t even directly apply, since the specific issue, if there is one, is motzi shem ra, not literal dan l’kaf zechus.
chash,
“people rationalize aveiros all the time, and they do it for watching stuff like the super bowl too, in fact…”
“A person i know just came over to me telling me that he was horrified, that although he was aware that they were going to watch the superbowl, he took it for granted that they would shut it for the half time…”
I agree with everything you wrote in your post. It’s quite different in tone and even substance from what Joseph wrote.
klugeryid,
”
The gemorah does it.
The gemorah actually does even more
ג דברים אין אדם ניצול בכל יום מיעוטן בגזל, רובם בעריות , וכולם באבק לשון הרע”I don’t think that Joseph and Chazal are comparable, and their intentions are quite different. I think assessing intention is part of our disagreement here.
“I’m not following your circular issue at all so I have no comment.”
That’s never stopped you before.
klugeryid,
“What are you even talking about?”
Joseph’s post with my interlinear comments:
People [specifically those who post in the CR, as he makes clear in later responses] rationalize all sorts of aveiros [I have no objection to this statement]; so expect a litany of excuses here [in the CR, he is telling us what the CR participants specifically are going to do] why this aveira [viewing awful pritzus] is okay and why this aveira (pritzus and whole list of worse things [!!!]) “really” isn’t such an aveira [i.e., expect the people on the CR to justify some of the worst aveiros people can do]. Or that one day a year is okay to take a break from not doing aveiros [not even twist things around to say it’s not a sin, just straight up say that sinning is fine].
These are powerfully negative things to say, and it’s not a leap at all to posit that someone who actually espouses such things would be beyond redemption. However, nobody in the CR actually did the things he said to expect. This isn’t even an issue of dan l’kaf zechus.
klugeryid,
“however as in the case above you responded while on afterburner and thus clarity was lost…
That’s exactly what I meant by women being more emotional.”He wrote that about you.
zahavasdad,
“The argument against watching sports is Bittual torah, not Prizus”
Not that I’ve seen, either in this thread or other discussions of sports. You can’t shoot an arrow, then paint a target where it landed and claim a bullseye. I’ve seen some argue that sports fandom is a huge financial and emotional investment in something that is hevel at its core (not a uniquely Jewish argument), but that is not the same thing as bitul Torah. And the theme of this thread through and through has been specifically issues of exposure to pritzus while watching the Superbowl.
klugeryid,
“but i would contend that as the posters here are anonymous, it is not the same as casting aspersions on a person or defined group”
The problem with that is that this is a frum Jewish Web site, so “anonymous” defaults to “frum Jews.”
“however i keep falling back on the position that since there is a bening [benign?] way to view his comment, she should have done so at least according to her logic and worldview”
I don’t follow from Syag’s post that she holds one is required to search the galaxy for a limud zechus on every comment made under the sun. She didn’t like Joseph’s assertion that a group of Jews were beyond redemption and would surely sin. Your contention at first seemed to be that Joseph was referring to irredeemable sinners. But that is circular reasoning and makes no sense. Irredeemable sinners are irredeemable sinners. Why does that need to be said? You also said that the CR is not a definable group of Jews. So I wrote what I did above. And I’m not sure at all that it’s ok to cast aspersions on an undefined group of Jews.
zahavasdad,
“If you can learn all day without breaks, then you should not be bittual torah for it, but for those of us not on that madreiga of the Choftez Chaim or other gedoli yisroel we need to pick our battles”
You have moved the goalposts (pun intended). First, nobody here who has objected to watching the Super Bowl has done so on the basis of bitul Torah. The basis is the pritzus inherent in an event that purposefully tries to push the boundaries of what even the hedonistic secular American culture finds acceptable. And whether it is possible to partake safely in any part of such an event (by trying to skip the commercials, halftime, etc).
klugeryid,
“Probably what you learned was referring to a specific group. Meaning One of two things
1) all satMar do….. So that would be wrong because you are casting aspersions on a specified group of people
2) see that group over there? They…….
That would also be wrong.”Ah, but Joseph was casting aspersions on a specified group of people: the denizens of the CR. He said as much in a follow-up post where he noted his 10+ years of experience with such “people.” I would like to point out that in 62 posts and counting so far in this thread, B”H not a single person has tried yet to justify stam viewing pritzus as he contended.
“He spoke about those who watch or defend those who watch.”
Not exactly. He contended that people here on the CR were the sort of people who watch or defend those who watch. I think that’s what bothered Syag.
rightwriter,
“Why did it take so many years from creation for Judaism to develop as well as other monotheistic religions? How come idolatrous religions are still alive and strong even in this age of understanding?”
I am not privy to Hashem’s reasons for the timing of when He gave the Torah, though there are various factors that are discussed. And who says that this is an age of (religious) understanding?
“Obviously there are many instances where modern medicine is not fit to cure and more homeopathic and herbal remedies are necessary and can fix. Wouldn’t it be strange if Judaism doesn’t have those essential secrets but having to rely on other religious wisdom?”
Who says all wisdom is religious wisdom? We are allowed to utilize non-religious wisdom that comes from the nations around us, such as technology or medicinal cures.
rightwriter,
“What symbol/icon in Judaism symbolizes/represents Judaism the most?”
This is a subjective question. I think most people today would most associate the 6-sided “magen David” star with Judaism, though on the scale of Jewish history, it’s a fairly recent association. The seven branched menorah from the beis hamikdash probably represents Judaism the most.
“What customs in our religion have any skeptical/unclear origins? Are there any customs which Judaism adopted from other religions or are they undoubtedly Jewish origins(red string,blue eye etc.)?”
That depends on how you define “our religion” and “Judaism.” Also, I am an Orthodox Jew and interact with many other Orthodox Jews, and the “red string” and “blue eye” are not things that I encounter or think about.
“Did all religions originate from or originally based on Judaism? Is there any wisdom in other religions that may have been forgotten in Judaism such as the “matanos” that were given to Hagar on her departure?”
No. Idolatrous religions were all made up by people. Christianity and Islam did derive some of their ideas from Judaism. As far as wisdom in other religions, Jews are strictly forbidden from investigating other religions and their practices.
“Why isn’t Judaism the most ancient of all religions if it is the correct one or is it the most ancient just wasn’t officially considered a religion?”
Judaism was designed for Jews, the nation of descendants of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yaakov who were slaves in Egypt and taken out of there by Hashem, and righteous converts who join that nation. The building blocks of Judaism (e.g., Torah) were in the world since it was created.
“What’s with Sefer raziel hamalach? Any thoughts?”
None from me.
5ish,
“It is bordering on an insanity that some of you seem to be incapable of understanding that a person would suffer from having the derech in Avodas Hashem of his Rebbeim mocked, and you think that expressing that is somehow lacking in “Ahavas Yisroel.””
My objection is not at all directed towards the personal suffering experienced by the Baal HaTanya, but rather the way this story is used, and turning it into a holiday. It canonizes a group of Torah observant Jews as villains in a way that I don’t think has ever been done previously by any other group of Torah observant Jews.
Milhouse,
“Yes, DSG, it is really correct. That is what happened. Yes, Chabad loves all Jews, including the worst resha’im, and definitely including misnagdim. But misnagdim hated chassidim, and the fact is that the Alter Rebbe’s suffering during the few hours he was stuck in the misnaged’s home was worse than he had suffered the whole 53 days he was in prison.”
This story turns “loving all Jews” on its head. To make a holiday celebrating the founder of Chabad’s “rescue” from a misnagid where a few hours in his house was worse than 53 days in a Russian prison does not reflect love. It’s canonizing a libel. An implication that misnagdim are far worse than Russian anti-Semites. Early Christianity demonized “Pharisees” through anecdotes similar to this despite the fact that it was the brutal Roman oppressors who killed their deity, and those libels had devastating consequences for the Jewish people over the past 2000 years.
While anti-Chabad sentiment certainly exists, there are no anti-Chabad holidays on the Snag calendar. Hatred can flow in more than one direction.
Neither. ChromeOS with crouton, or Linux for me. Apple products are expensive status symbols for most use cases, and the quality of your Windows experience invariably degrades with time.
Milhouse,
““Boro” is a careless shortening of “borough””
Not necessarily careless. There can be thoughtful reasons for shortening a location name, such as for signage.
akuperma,
“The rising divorce rates, among both Jews and goyim, have been taking place over a long time.”
Divorce rates are not linear with time, and in fact have decreased in recent years due to millennials marrying later (and less frequently) and staying married longer.
“A strong argument can be made that the cause is the use of antibiotics in general, and improved obstetric care in particular.”
Uhh, no, that does not explain the dramatic rise in divorce rates from the 1950s to the 1990s.
“In the good old days, few marriages lasted all that long since one (of both) of the spouses would die. It used to be very rare for a marriage to last 25 years. An unfortunate side effect of marriages lasting so long is that leaves time for the couple to “grow apart”, which leads to divorce.”
I’m not sure why you’re obsessed with infant and maternal mortality in “the good old days” and use it as a simplistic explanation for everything under the sun. It doesn’t even come close to fitting here. The average number of years that divorcees were married in the U.S. is 8 years. The divorce process takes about a year, and the average number of years a spouse considers divorce before acting on it is 3 years. This indicates that significant marital trouble leading to divorce on average has begun after around 4 years of marriage. That’s not a long time at all to “grow apart.”
klugeryid,
“Who is this thread smearing?”
Satmars. Witness the OP:
“filthy rich Satmar father from Willimsburg … this Satmar lowlife … (PS: Keep fighting “tziyonis”!)”
Replace the instances of “Satmar” with “Jew” in the OP and you’d have something that a neo-Nazi would be proud to write.
“Actually better than making UNSUBSTANTIATED RUMORS that the victim was involved in bad stuff.”
Better does not make right. Stealing only $10,000 from someone is “better” than stealing $100,000.
Thick or thin, cheesy or not, hot or cold, I have never met pizza I did not like.
klugeryid,
“Let’s talk numbers of possibility”
The OP asked for what the average frum family paid for groceries per week, not what amount is theoretically possible to spend to avoid malnutrition. I’m also not sure that your menu would meet even that goal if followed for more than a month or two. And I think some of your estimates on how much food is needed are a bit low.
Family of six children – I’m assuming two parents as well, so 8 mouths to feed.
Two Dozen eggs $2 – This would theoretically work for breakfast, but I hope everyone likes eggs, or at least does not have an egg sensitivity. A breakfast of nothing but scrambled eggs wouldn’t work for most families. Any alternatives add to the cost.
Bottle milk $2.40 – Everyone’s limited to 8oz per day, not a drop more. And no milk at all on the weekends?
Cream cheese $4 – Everyone gets a 1 micron thick schmear on their sandwich? I think two containers is needed here, so make this $8, unless doing cholov stam. And lunch is nothing but a cream cheese sandwich? I guess you can have the glass of milk with it? Yes you’ll mention extras below that can be sides. We’ll get there.
Two boxes macaroni (constantly on sale at shop rite) $1.76 You don’t have any sides with the mac and cheese, so the family of 8 will need more food for supper than this. So either more mac and cheese or another reliance on the extras below.
Total $10.16 and you’ve fed your family amply. Times five days $50.80 for the week – Breakfast was sufficient for those who like or can eat eggs, but a cream cheese sandwich and glass of milk for lunch and a small serving of mac and cheese per mouth for supper is not “ample.” And yes, the extras below will try to mitigate this, but we’ll see how well that works.
You can add whatever you want to this basic.
Brick of cheese $14 – this is a lowball, especially if having mac and cheese multiple times in a week. 2-3 bricks per week is a more realistic estimate. Tomato sauce is a cheaper topping on pasta, but then you lose a protein.
Bottle ketchup $3
Three orange juice $9 – Everyone’s limited to 3.4oz of orange juice a day over 7 days?
2 Family packs of chicken bottoms $24 – Ok, so we eat supper on Sunday, with maybe some leftovers on Monday for one or two people in the family sick of cream cheese sandwiches.
Package of hot dogs $10 – Ok, so we eat lunch on Sunday. But lunch being one bare hotdog per person doesn’t seem “ample”, even if taken with ketchup.
Fruits and vegetables $50 – This is where you kind of gave up on the breakdown and ended up lowballing considerably. A cream cheese sandwich for lunch on weekdays and a single un-bunned ketchup-covered hotdog on Sunday followed by a 6 hour wait until supper isn’t really ample or healthy, so let’s add an apple as a side. Apples typically run around $1.20/lb, and a single apple weighs about a third of a pound. So an apple per person per day over a week runs you around $22.40. That doesn’t leave much for other produce, sides, or snacks (potatoes, carrots, greens, peas/corn, maybe you’d put rice and beans here, other fruit) that’s critical to making this diet nutritious and sustainable.CTLAWYER,
“My comment is that I find the attacks amusing. It is not limited to the CR.”
No, your comment was that you always find the attacks amusing, which indicates prior knowledge. You know what types of responses are likely to your words, and I don’t see how the results of potential onas devarim or lifnei iver could be amusing.
“but when my mother gave me her engagement diamond for Mrs. CTL SIL was seething with jealousy, claimed it belonged to her since I was not the eldest son”
Something tells me that had little to do with the diamond itself, and more about how welcome (or not) she felt in your parents’ family. Especially considering that your mother singled her out for exclusion in the will. Had the issue just been about getting a diamond, your brother could’ve easily ameliorated her feelings by buying her one.
” Just an excuse, they could not afford to have one put in, so they swam by us or my MIL.”
Actually your wife’s younger sister is acting in a very smart way. Drowning is R”L the biggest killer of children under 4 in the U.S. other than birth defects, and most of these drownings occur in unattended swimming pools. By bringing her children to your pool to swim, she gets the best of both worlds – access to a private pool and the ability to prevent access to the pool when it’s not swimming time. If I lived by close relatives with a pool and who welcomed my family to come swim in it, I would certainly not build one on my property, even if I could afford 10 of them.
CTLAWYER,
“It’s always fun to watch those who don’t have or can’t afford, make fun or find fault with those who have or can afford.”
I was mostly on your side in this discussion until this post. You are absolutely correct that a person’s individual and independent financial decisions are nobody else’s business. However, nobody is driving by your property in an old beater with squeaky belts and peeling paint and glowering at you for having tennis courts and a swimming pool. You are choosing to post your business publicly on the CR, a forum that is intended for discussion. And by writing “it’s always fun to watch”, you demonstrate that you are intentionally provoking a certain type of response.
Joseph,
“What are the Democrat run states doing wrong leading to them leading the nation in anti-Semitism?”
California and New York happen to have the highest numbers of Jews in the U.S., as well as the largest total populations. Rhode Island, for example, has a democratic governor and only had 5 incidents in the ADL report.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“So if I invite you for the day meal on Shavuos, you won’t ask me if the invitation is for the first day or last day of Shavuos?! You will carefully ask me if it is for the first day or second day (not c”v calling it the “last day”).”
I’ve never heard the second day of Shavuos called the “last” day. And neither have you – see your OP. And it would be technically incorrect to call it such.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“classic circular logic”
His point was not circular. You just intentionally failed to understand it.
You should wear your Purim costume.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“Luckily, my 60 pounds of kosher meat nullifies her one pound of treif meat, so now my poy has 60 pounds of kosher meat.”
“She says, one of those pounds in this pot is mine, and if it is now kosher, bonus to me. You can’t replace my meat with another meat – give me meat from this pot.
I say, no, you put in a treif pound into my pot, that is all you deserve, to you get back a treif pound of meat, the koshering part is mine, because of my 60 pounds of meat. You didn’t put in a kosher pound of meat, why should i give you back a kosher pound of meat?!”
You should give her 1lb of meat from your pot, and you will still have 60lbs of meat in your pot. A miracle?
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
If you wanted to play-act the Chofetz Chaim in the wagon, you should’ve killed horses, not halachos.
outsiderlookingin,
Why did you choose outsiderlookingin as your username?
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“so are you saying in a case of pikuach nefesh, one is better off eating human meat than a treif chicken?!”
No, because in that situation, the laws of kashrus become suspended due to the pikuach nefesh, so the desecration of a meis is unnecessary to sustain life and remains forbidden.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“I order a soup and notice the waiter’s finger slipped into the soup.
Is the soup still kosher? The soup had in it a human finger (which is ossur to eat, not to mention, aver min a chai)!”
Did the finger impart noticable taam into the soup? If so, why would you want to eat it?
Haimy,
“Bachurim in Yeshiva don’t want to go home knowing how sleep deprived & nervous their parents are according to a veteran Mechanech.”
How about the bochrim go home, roll up their sleeves, and pitch in so their parents can get some sleep?
ftresi,
“Not at all. My other half would still going nuts cleaning the house even if we went away. As much as I hate Pesach at home, I do NOT want to spend it in a hotel either”
I think your poor attitude and resentment towards your wife is much more damaging than her “going nuts” cleaning. If housecleaning (organizing, weeding out unneeded things, scrubbing soap scum in the shower, etc.) is causing delays or stress in Pesach prep, then perhaps you can offer to help with housecleaning in Shevat or Adar, so that Nissan need not be overloaded. A clean house is much easier to check for chometz than a messy one. If she is feeling miserable because of the Pesach cleaning, mention your concern to her and if appropriate, point out what’s required and what’s not. Otherwise, take a deep breath and realize that not everything in life is going to be fun, so make the best of it. And thank her – she is taking a huge burden off of you by doing the cleaning.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“Ah,a, so you “rely” on the rov, but there is room to be machmir and be “choshesh l’mi’uta” (worry about the minority that exist that are treif). – I stress as a chumra, which is what my point was all along.”
No, not really. It’s not a legitimate chumra to deny the validity of a Torah principle such as rov. It’s making up your own Torah like the karaites did, and there are serious halachic problems with that.
Mammele,
“I’m breaking my head over the possibility that Rebbetzin G. Is actually a reincarnation of Poppa Bar Abba. Thoughts?”
Nah. Popa did not mess with halacha when he trolled: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lying-on-ywn/#post-596054
What kind of cheese? Cheddar? Mozzarella? Muenster?
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“Sam Klien – you are playing with the word “dependent” on others besides Hashem. Hashem gives us life, yet you “depend” on your food to live. Would you die without food?”
After two days you serve up this nice softball to Sam Klein? Had Bnei Yisroel not complained about the lack of food and water in the midbar, they would have had no need to eat or drink. We see this by the fact that they never complained about their clothing, and their garments never wore out in 40 years. כִּי לֹא עַל-הַלֶּחֶם לְבַדּוֹ יִחְיֶה הָאָדָם–כִּי עַל-כָּל-מוֹצָא פִי-ה’, יִחְיֶה הָאָדָם
Also, I think Sam Klein or an alias of his has stated in the past that he fasts each and every single day because of our terrible, terrible generation of which he’s ashamed to be a part, yet he continues to post on the CR.
“But the two dependencies are not identical.”
Exactly. But it is precisely the blurring of the lines between these two “types” of dependency that have caused consternation with some elements of Chabad. And your whole purpose in this troll thread is to willfully obfuscate this issue.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“I think Sam Klien made clear that he is AGAINST middlemen and used the following examples:”
Sam Klein is a known troll who writes as if he fancies himself on the level with Yosef Hatzaddik, for whom it was an aveira to ask the sar hamashkim to put in a good word for him with paroh, whereas for us it would be a normal and even required part of our histaldus. Despite the fact that he is likely mocking the concept of emunah CV”S, what he wrote is technically not inconsistent with histaldus. If you, for example, go to a doctor for medical treatment but maintain an awareness that the success of the treatment comes from Hashem, then the doctor is not a middleman between you and Hashem.
This is ok:
You —————> Hashem
Another —————> Hashem
This, however, is not ok:
You —————> Another —————> Hashem
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“clearly you disagree with the statement made by Sam Klien – “A person should not need a middleman (Rebbe or rav etc…) to turn to for help when he needs help from Hashem. He should go Directly to Hashem and ask for whatever he lacks. ””
It depends on what he means by middleman. If a person CV”S thinks “I cannot relate directly to Hashem, so I will have this rebbe relate to Him for me…”, then I agree 100% with what Sam Klein said. If, however, he means that one should not consult a rav or rebbe for help in his own avodas Hashem, then I disagree 100%.
“Your position is that it’s ok to ask a LIVING person for help to daven on your behalf.”
I think that position is universal.
“Seems the position of the Pri Megadim is that it IS ok to turn to the dead for help to daven on our behalf (as Kalev did).”
Yes – but that issue is whether asking the dead to daven for you is a violation of the issur to consult the dead or not, which isn’t really what’s being debated on the Chabad threads regarding the Lubavitcher Rebbe (some don’t even think he’s dead!). That issue that is whether Chabad’s relationship to its rebbe violates the issur of having gods other than Hashem.
“Yet many are against the chassidic way of asking the Rebbe for a brocha when a yeshuah is needed, claiming as Sam Klien did (and I heard this often), why go to others, you can daven directly to Hashem yourself?!”
Because perhaps they are seeing it as my first interpretation of “middleman.”
“Lately, we of the Litvish world have begun treating our Gedolim as Rebbes and asking them for brochas and yeshuos. We adopted the chassidic ways!”
I don’t think this is accurate.
TomomTihyeh,
“which ikkarei emunah am I denying in that post, exactly?”
2, 3, 5, and 7.
YW Moderator-29,
“You probably grind your own wheat as well.”
Only in my homeopathic mac recipes.
Boil some macaroni noodles and dump ’em into a pan. Then mix in grated cheddar/mozzarella/muenster and a little milk. Finally, sprinkle more shredded cheese on top and bake. You’ll never go back to the boxed stuff.
TomimTihyeh,
You are either a false-flag troll or you are trying to set the world record for the number of ikkarei emunah denied in one thread.
Rebbetzin Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“Going to a kever (like kever Rochel) and asking the t zaddik to help you – to davening for you…sounds soooo LUBAVITCH.”
Whether intentionally or not, you are blurring the line between permitted and forbidden, which is a dangerous thing to do. To pray to a person is absolutely forbidden according to all opinions. And I think most opinions hold that to directly ask a dead person to pray to Hashem on one’s behalf is also forbidden. Instead, one should pray to Hashem for mercy in the merit of the person buried there. Why then go to the kever? Because 1) there is an increased level of kedusha there, 2) it builds a more tangible connection between you and the person buried there, and 3) more generally, visiting kevarim reminds a person of his mortality, which can help spur teshuva.
As for seeking the help of a living tzaddik – there is no issur to ask someone living to daven on one’s behalf, or to seek a psak, bracha or advice. This is not setting up an intermediary. You still go to mincha after seeing the tzaddik and daven, and perform your own mitzvos. If, however, one CV”S start praying to the tzaddik, or thinks that it is he who has the power to help, that’s a dangerous error.
Avi K,
Can you do me a favor and actually respond to what I’m writing, rather than constructing a liberal strawman? I’m not philosophically opposed to capital punishment. I’m not denying that a non-Jewish government has the authority to do it. But given the fact that we as U.S. citizens are allowed a voice in government policy through voting or lobbying, my position is that the death penalty shouldn’t be used in the U.S.
“Leo Frank was lynched not executed. In fact, GA Gov. John M. Slaton commuted his sentence”
He was originally sentenced to death. He was lynched because of that commutation. And his killers were not prosecuted.
“the extent of Ethel Rosenberg’s guilt is still a matter of dispute”
Thanks for proving my point.
“I find it interesting that liberals are so concerned about people who have rap sheets longer than height but care nothing for unborn babies”
Are you directing this comment to me? Because if so, you obviously have either not read or not understood this thread.
Avi K,
“Avram, so what is your method? Any human system is flawed by definition.”
Here I’m going to sound a lot like ubiquitin: ideally capital punishment should be enforced with a Sanhedrin and righteous Jewish king in place. I do not know at what point between the current American criminal justice system and that ideal I would flip my view on the death penalty. Honestly I’m uncomfortable with it while Jews are in golus. Now why do I allow myself that “out” while disagreeing with ubiquitin’s application? Because to me, the risk of executing someone not guilty outweighs the benefits of the death penalty as it is applied in the U.S. By abortion, the risk of an optional but halachically allowed abortion being stayed (which I think would be quite rare, but ubiquitin disagrees) does not outweigh the benefit of protecting the unborn babies.
“However, it is necessary to have some system (see Ran, Derash 11). It should, of course, be tweaked as much as possible but there must be a system.”
There is a system. The question is, what part does the death penalty play in the U.S. system? To underscore the severity of sinning? Nope. To act as a deterrent? It’s quite bad at that too.
“Would you also oppose the death penalty for obviously guilty criminals like the Pittsburgh shooter”
Of course I think he’s deserving of death. You’re confusing the nature of my position. I’ll ask you: what about Leo Frank and Ethel Rosenberg?
Meno,
“Agav, there are those who are choshed that a potatoe is not hoadama and therefore are careful not to use potato.
What bracha do they make on it?”
Maybe he meant raw potato.