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charliehall,
Apologies from this gnat who deserves no medical whatsoever care because he dares ask questions regarding the Great Priests of capital-S Science and their multi-billion dollar industry of holy sacraments for the imposition to your time.
“So say the results from two huge randomized clinical trials”
כה אמר המדענים, should we read these papers with the trop used for leining the Torah, or the Haftarah?
“Basically, if you don’t accept their results you should never ever waste your time going to see any doctor for anything”
There’s a difference between not accepting the results of a trial, and questioning whether the right questions were asked in the first place, or whether enough time has elapsed to get the answers. And given how science is fundamentally based on asking questions, it’s amazing how medical scientists and doctors in particular get really angry and bothered by questions. My field endures more questions and gets less respect overall than medical science, and deals with implications that are just as big as medicine, yet I don’t get angry when people question and doubt findings, even when those questions and doubts come from a lack of knowledge. Many times through listening I find that it’s not the science that they are rejecting, but the policies advocated in response to those findings. And those discussions are both valuable and productive.
“because you do not believe in modern medical science”
Since when does “science” ask for our belief? If you set up Science as a new religion, is it any wonder that religious Jews resist conversion to it?
“I have not seen any medical treatment that has been shown to be so effective, with so few serious adverse events, ever in my career”
Amazing what can be done when trials are designed from the outset to succeed.
rightwriter,
Regarding what nefarious things you think ubiquitin is thinking, you made it up and it just makes your posts look rude.
Regarding asking someone else to delete the messages you sent them, you have a right to politely ask once, and they have a right to say no. And you have a right to no longer send them personal messages if you think they are not being respectful of your private communications to them. Everything that is sent to someone else electronically should be assumed to be potentially permanently available, and there isn’t much of anything we can do about it. Adjust accordingly.
Did you know that with Signal you can send messages that delete automatically from the recipient’s device after a period of time following the recipient reading it?
charliehall,
“denied boarding an airplane because he got put on the no-fly list after being part of the murderous mob that stormed the US Capitol”
Apparently the video was of a passenger removed from a flight for refusing to wear a mask. Someone on the FBI’s no-fly list would likely be unable to get a boarding pass, much less reach the gate. Perhaps social media isn’t the best place to be getting our news 🙂
ubiquitin,
“In addition to the 4 Rosh Hashanas you reference In September, I wish hatzlacha to the new year in school. I and they consider September to be the start of a new school year Ialways wish them success on the new year in September, or Elul as the case may be. Is this allowed?”
You are ignoring context to quibble with Little Froggie over semantics. The school year legitimately and appropriately affects us, and is clearly an arbitrary date set for convenience by school systems. The medical school year is just another type of school year. Fiscal and tax years affect us too, and are purely secular, though it’s a bit strange to wish people happy fiscal new years. But how should the non-Jewish religious observance of New Years Day affect us as Jews?
You may ask why then did LF have to bring in the other new years listed in the mishna, but I believe he did so because all of those new years are religious in nature, as is New Years Day.
Yserbius123,
“What about wearing a mask for 15 minutes to an hour at a time and taking it off for breaks in secluded corners when there are no people around?”
Sounds like good ideas to me.
“There were some people who felt too uncomfortable, so they would walk outside for a few minutes.”
Why didn’t you say this before?
“Which is why the whole “debate” baffles and angers me, I really can’t understand why there are still so many people ignoring COVID-19 restrictions.”
I think the issues are far more complex than, “I feel uncomfortable” for many people, so assuming it’s all about discomfort or difficulty may make it hard to understand where others are coming from, which makes it hard to reach them.
Yserbius123,
“May I re-iterate my suggestion to read Rabbi Shafran’s article before going veiter? He basically says the same things that I said in the same tone that got me accusations of being “disrespectful” or “hateful”.”
In his column, Rabbi Shafran mostly discussed his own personal experiences and journey, and he respectful exhorted people to try wearing the masks and getting used to them. He didn’t cast aspersions on anyone or write in a highly dismissive and angry manner.
Yserbius123,
“Let’s take a step back. Do you personally think that masks are dangerous to wear or not?”
For the majority of people when worn for relatively short periods of time? No. They do cause us to work harder to breathe, which again for most people over short duration is doable, but may be more problematic for extended periods of time or for people with other difficulties. I feel they also generate more face touching due to pulling on or adjusting the mask, and it is a challenge to keep them sanitary.
“Do you think that most people who don’t wear masks do so because they are physically incapable of wearing one or because they are uncomfortable?”
I think the reasons some people do not wear masks or resist wearing them are complex and differ from person to person.
MadeAliyah,
“Probably not, forcing someone to do something TO HIMSELF to make you feel good is a form of bulling.”
Yserbius123 is not arguing for people to wear masks in order to assuage others’ fears or make them feel good, he is arguing that it helps protect others’ health.
Yserbius123,
“When asked for the reasons why people don’t wear masks, we keep getting back to “it’s difficult for a lot of people”. NU? And that’s a reason?”
I have not answered that question in this thread, and that wouldn’t be my answer to that question.
“@Avrum-in-MD claims (contrary to a scientific study that he himself linked to) that masks lower oxygen intake and increase CO2.”
There must be some other Avrum in MD on this thread whose posts are inexplicably invisible to me, because I never said any such thing.
“And you have defended both of them and said that “it’s not right” that we should argue.”
Argue all you want; this is an extremely important issue for almost everyone in the world right now. I’m just pointing out that if you want to claim the mantle of Science and Logic and Rightness, you should not be misinterpreting, twisting, fabricating, or twisting logic yourself. And further than that, if you desire to change minds rather than just scream into the void at your perceived enemies, you have to understand where your audience is coming from.
Yserbius123,
“I was taking @daas-yochid s story to the logical place”
No, you made up your own story that was different from DaasYochid’s and then made a wild extrapolation from that made up story. Logic isn’t even in the same galaxy.
“Because they didn’t stick a CO2 measurement device right in the guys face?”
Lol, if you actually read the study’s abstract or what I wrote about it, you’d see that they did indeed do that.
“I tried to have empathy. I really did. But I lost it maybe about six months ago. It may have been some time between when I first got asked “Are you makpid on masks?” and when I watched a live feed of a simcha where hundreds of people were dancing together without any concern for COVID. Or maybe it was the time when a Yeshiva Bachur broke the rules to attend a simcha and ended up putting several of his Rebbeim in the hospital.”
So you need to make a choice. Do you actually want to try and effect change, or do you just want to spew hatred like an out-of-control fire hose? Given your inability to read and understand what people have written here in this thread, I’m guessing you have failed to understand where people are coming from “in real life” as well. So perhaps the source of your frustration is not due to those around you.
“I would like to hear it. I would be interested to hear a single local doctor say to one of their long time patients “It’s better if you don’t wear a mask”.”
He feels the response to the pandemic is wildly disproportionate and has caused considerable collateral damage that was unnecessary, and does not require his patients to wear masks during visits. I don’t know how you define “local” doctor. He practices in my area, but he is not frum.
“In my community, there are basically four practices with frum doctors that people go to. And each one of those has been extremely loud and open that not enough people are wearing masks or following other COVID protocols.”
And the loudness in press releases and twits and fakebooks and the like is actually counterproductive in my opinion, because the community perceives that the yelling is meant more for gentile consumption. “Look at me! I’m embarrassed by my own community!” Really, has anyone anywhere ever said, “oh wow I changed my mind because somebody screamed at me on social media”?
Yserbius123,
“I’m referring to an old comment that @daas-yochid made in which he fabricated a story about Hatzalah”
You fabricated that comment and falsely attributed it to him. And it’s astonishing that you’re doubling down because what DaasYochid actually wrote is plain for everyone to read. And thus I start to doubt your intentions entirely.
“I don’t know what studies you’ve read”
I was referring to Raymond J Roberge, Aitor Coca, W Jon Williams, Jeffrey B Powell, Andrew J Palmiero: Physiological impact of the N95 filtering facepiece respirator on healthcare workers in the May 2010 edition of Respiratory Care, which is a study I’ve seen referenced in several articles regarding mask safety.
“Fakert, there are multiple studies that show zero physical adverse side effects from wearing a face mask, even for people with respiratory issues.”
Please share the citations.
“Which is why I’m extremely skeptical of anyone who talks about large swaths of people that cannot wear masks.”
If someone tells me that something is extremely difficult for them, I tend to believe them a lot more than someone who is blatantly lying and making stuff up on the internet.
“Sure there are those who have psychological issues, like panic attacks when wearing a mask, or people who have abnormally large or small facial features that make masks extremely uncomfortable.”
So you finally admit this, albeit bizarrely. Now take the next step into the world of empathy. Not necessarily to say that you’re fine if these people refrain from ever wearing masks, but at least to acknowledge that it’s a true challenge, and stop dismissively pontificating on how easy mask wearing is. If mask wearing is really so important to you, which I doubt, encourage people. Treat them like they’re doing something big and important, not trivial. Acknowledge the difficulties they have and offer sympathy and amelioration, not scorn. If you think people would benefit from finding just that right mask, then start a mask gemach that allows people to try on different types, and then give them 5 of the ones that work best. Things like that will go much further than internet bullying, though they may be less fun.
<blockquote”call up your doctor. Not some doctor you heard of on the Internet, but the physician you’ve trusted with your health since before COVID. And ask them if it’s better to wear or not to wear a mask.”
You’re probably not going to like my doctor’s opinion.Yserbius123,
“You literally invented a story about Hatzalah running amok because everyone was dying from wearing face masks.”
Before we continue this discussion, are you actually anti-facemask and trying to do a false-flag troll by making pro-mask arguments as odious and unproductive as possible? It’s almost like you are working from a playbook of what not to do to persuade others.
Yserbius123,
“We have to measure what the bigger danger is: wearing a mask or not wearing one.”
There’s no way to make accurate measurements if we can’t even be honest about what we are trying to measure.
“The people who physically or psychologically are unable to wear masks are very few, perhaps one out of 1000.”
Oooh, I can make up statistics too. That should be fun and constructive! Maybe I should just be grateful that you’re allowing 1 in a thousand. Earlier in the thread you were at zero.
“The majority of those who claim they can’t wear masks, simply haven’t found one that they feel comfortable in and don’t see a pressing need to wear one.”
And on what do you base this assumption?
“So it’s a question of forcing that tiny minority of people who can’t wear masks to be stuck inside until the pandemic is over, or forcing elderly, immune compromised, and other sick people inside until the pandemic is over. Unfortunately, we have to inconvenience the minority (people who can’t wear a mask) so that the majority (elderly etc.) won’t be inconvenienced.”
False dilemma.
“And no. Scientists have yet to find a situation where a fabric face mask has restricted someone’s oxygen. It’s literally never happened. CO2 and O2 can pass through the fabric of an N95 mask no problem.”
If you’re referring to the study I think you are referring to, there was pretty much no oxygen depletion measured in the blood, a bit of increased CO2 that was still within OSHA standards, but the measurements of the air in the pocket between the mask and the face were well outside of OSHA standards for both low oxygen and high CO2. The study participants were healthy healthcare workers with proper training and fitting of the equipment. I have put a pulse oximeter on my own finger and sat on the couch for 20 minutes in a cloth mask. When breathing normally only, my O2 saturation gradually fell from 98/99 to 95. I could keep it up near 98/99 by frequently sighing, yawning, and tugging on the mask while inhaling. I have (usually) well controlled asthma, but wonder how easy it would be to keep up the O2 saturation if I were having a significant asthma episode (not that I’d be out and about at the grocery store with bad asthma – but what about someone who needs to go in for a breathing treatment?). Or someone with COPD, or congestive heart failure, or Covid, etc.
Yserbius123,
“Let’s get this straight: Wearing a mask is not a big deal.”
It may not be for you, but it is for others. And until you develop enough empathy to see that, you will have difficulty convincing them of the correctness of your position.
“It doesn’t restrict oxygen, nor increase CO2 levels.”
In some situations, it can.
“It doesn’t make it hard for people to hear you,”
Blatantly false. Widespread mask use has significantly exacerbated communication issues for people hard of hearing. Some masks with thicker layers do in fact block some sound, but a bigger issue is the inability to rely on lip reading and the facial components of ASL Many people with minor hearing loss who unconsciously rely on lip reading in louder settings have discovered their hearing loss issues due to this pandemic. Arguing that exacerbating hearing problems for some is necessary is perhaps a valid argument to make, but to dismiss the problem is heartless because then nobody will realize the need to mitigate such problems, and it undermines the validity of your argument.
Gadolhadorah,
“I think Charlie was referencing the idiot allegedly trying to hold up the shipments of vaccines already contractually obligated, not any of our posters.”
While that was a nice attempt at a limmud zechus and pivot, his insult was clearly directed at the poster he was quoting.
charliehall,
“Idiot.”
Wow, don’t you think the petty name calling is beneath you?
Reb Eliezer,
“I call myself Reb Eliezer to encourage respect to the elderly”
There’s a story of Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L (I think I read it in the Artscroll biography) where he was walking down a street, and a man drove by and called out “Hey Moshe, come here!” to his young son who was also on the street. Rav Moshe walked over to the car, greeted the man, and asked what the man wanted. The driver was floored, and said that he would never refer to the Rav by his first name, or make him walk over to the car. Rav Moshe was completely nonchalant and assumed the man was calling him over!
CTLAWYER,
“My chart says that I am to be addressed as Mister Y”
Explicitly in a section for nickname/preferred name? Then yes the receptionist made a mistake, but a pretty small one in the grand scheme of things. If it’s not explicit, then that’s on the office manager or whoever set up your chart, not the receptionist who called you back.
“I was the only patient in the waiting room, so no other was delayed.”
Then why would the receptionist call out a name three more times to a room empty except for you who didn’t answer the first time? And even if nobody was actively there at the moment, your appointment got off to an unnecessarily later start, which does impact those coming after you.
“The employee deserved a dressing down, it took place in the office, perhaps the office manager should not have been so loud, or maybe the office manager wanted me to hear this.
I had complained about this to the office manager in the past.”No she didn’t. A simple response of “Mr Y is here and ready to go back” along with a smile in response to her “Is X here?” would have politely and clearly gotten the point across. You didn’t score a win for politeness in the world; all you got was a receptionist and office manager who don’t like you so much.
CTLAWYER,
“Last Tuesday morning I had a Doctor’s appointment. A twenty something female came into the waiting room and called out my first name. I ignored her, After 4 attempts, she went back into the office and told the manager that Mister Y isn’t here.”
I agree with you regarding younger people referring to their elders by title or a more formal name. That is how I was raised, and I remember feeling uncomfortable when friends’ parents would invite me to call them by their first names, and I would continue to call them Mr or Mrs So-and-so. In this case, however, I feel your response to the receptionist was rather ungracious. She may well have been trained to use first names to develop a rapport with patients in order to help them feel at ease. She certainly intended no disrespect and was simply trying to do her job. Even if it was rude, two rudes do not make a polite, and forcing her to make four attempts to get you back into the exam room made everyone’s wait to be seen longer. And it garnered her a public reprimand which may have soured her day. If what you are called is that important to you, make sure it is on your chart and politely point it out if it is missed.
Yserbius123,
“All of this fails to answer this big question originally posed: Why are you so opposed to people wearing masks?”
I’m more opposed to social media bullies masquerading as do-gooders, attacking large segments of the frum community.
“But that’s all we need to get COVID-19 to go from an above 2 transmission rate to below 1. Keep it like that for a few months, and we can all get back to our normal lives.”
Not true. It’ll just come roaring right back.
Yserbius123,
“Don’t be ridiculous. Obviously it was at reduced capacity in accordance with the health guidelines. I think there were 50 people when the shul held 250.”
Not ridiculous at all. You said full. And in a previous thread you overstated the effectiveness of masks, implying that if everyone masks, we could socialize normally. See: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/covid-confusion#post-1907225
“It’s mostly transmitted by large droplets. Aerosol transmission isn’t nearly as common. Sure it’s possible, but still a low enough chance to risk it.”
You speak with more certainty here than is warranted. If transmission is mostly by large droplets, then why all the concern over asymptomatic people who are not coughing or sneezing?
“Read our follow up conversation. There are very very few people who have such difficulty with masks that they cannot wear them. Those people should stay away from others.”
Yeah there are very few when you systematically deny that such people exist. And now you are trying to move the goalposts. This was not your argument above. And it is not always possible for “those people” to stay away from others.
“If I have a question in halacha, I ask a Rov and don’t question his reasoning.”
You shouldn’t reject the psak given, but it is completely appropriate when asking a shaila to (respectfully!) question the reasoning to make sure the rav is aware of all of the facts and considerations before rendering the psak. And in some cases for the purposes of learning you can inquire about the reasoning behind the psak.
Yserbius123,
“A single person being uncomfortable is a small price to pay to potentially protect others from a dangerous virus.”
DaasYochid didn’t say uncomfortable. He said hatzolah almost was called on Yom Kippur. That’s a bit more than uncomfortable. Your arguments lose potency when you distort information you are given to suit your points rather than dealing with it head on.
“Can we acknowledge that this is a conversation about wearing masks to protect others? A mask only offers a small protection from getting a virus. But it offers a huge protection to other people if the mask wearer would Chas v’Shalom be infected.”
No, I don’t acknowledge this. The level of protection given by a mask for the wearer or others around the wearer is largely unknown, especially in non-clinical settings. These issues are complex, and your attempts to oversimplify them hurts trust in your larger arguments.
Yserbius123,
“I watched a room full of people, (including children as young as ten!) daven on Yom Kippur and wear a mask the entire ten hours they were in shul!”
A room full of people when regulations in most states require reduced capacity indoors? How were you ok with that? Also, if the virus is transmitted via aerosols and not just large droplets, the masks would’ve become useless by Yishtabach as breath escaping the increasingly saturated masks became well mixed into the room air.
The real muzzle is not the piece of cloth itself, but rather the Facebook and Twitter driven culture of bullying and shaming anyone who dares ask a question about anything deemed an ikkar emunah of the corporate sponsored religion of capital-S “science.”
Dear AriHaleviRosman,
“Why are you so opposed to wearing Face Masks in indoor minyanim and smachos during this pandemic?”
WHAAAT? How could you even breathe the words indoor minyan and simcha out into a world where Covid exists? You heinous MURDERER! How could you even think of stepping outside of your house? Preventing Covid is the one and only thing that matters in this world now. Stay home with your windows sealed shut, because that’s much, much more effective at preventing transmission than a stupid mask.
Slimshim1,
“It’s not just learning Torah.”
False dilemma – ujm didn’t say anything about favoring Torah over chessed, good middos, etc. That said, our Torah and our faith in Hashem is our lifeblood. It is what has kept us alive as a united nation full of chessed and good middos despite thousands of years of people trying to destroy us body and soul.
huju,
The OP didn’t say anything about leaving the U.S. Is your position that Jews should feel comfortable in America? If so, can you elaborate?
Amil Zola,
There’s a big difference between compassion and condescension disguised as compassion. Just sayin’.
Gadolhadorah,
“Inspections of several schools in the red zones which were operating showed that aside from the obvious lack of mask-wearing, desks were NOT spaced apart even 5 feet and that buildings with gas-fired forced air heating systems were Not using even MERV 13 air filters.”
The violation notices posted on YWN mainly state that children were heard inside. How are you privy to all of this additional information? Are you just assuming these things are so?
Gadolhadorah,
“CA: Laura was not even within the “top 10” of the most powerful hurricanes to hit the U.S.”
I think it just made the cut, actually.
“Very fortunately, it was more of a wind and storm surge event than a wind event and the winds dropped down incredibly quickly once it made landfall.”
Unfortunately for the people in its path it was a serious wind and storm surge event. Hurricanes always weaken rapidly after landfall, but Hurricane Laura spread destructive winds more than 100 miles inland. And if we’re comparing Laura to Katrina, Katrina’s most devastating impacts came from storm surge and the subsequent breaking of the levees in New Orleans, not wind damage.
“While any loss of life is tragic, compare with Katrina, Harvey etc. the residents of Texas and LA were very fortunate.”
Not the residents of places like Cameron or Lake Charles. Just because the storm didn’t hit a highly populated area does not mean it was weak.
“Whats worrisome is that we’ve had several big storms in the past few years that were hyped as “monster storms” or the “biggest in history” and they turned out to be considerably less.”
Laura was a monster storm. And if you’re frequently let down by your sources of information, you should probably seek out better ones.
“People seem to be getting jaded to these predictions and more willing to “ride out the storm” rather than evacuating.”
I think response rates to the mandatory evacuation orders in southern Louisiana was pretty high. The local National Weather Service forecast office in Lake Charles even evacuated, and Laura’s winds shredded their doppler radar.
Ubiquitin and I had our own lengthy back and forth in this parallel thread a while back: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/halachically-okay-to-be-liberal. אֵין כָּל-חָדָשׁ, תַּחַת הַשָּׁמֶשׁ so I’ll try not to rehash what’s already been discussed ad nauseam in both threads. Reading through this one provoked a few thoughts.
I really don’t like the “unlimited abortion on demand should be kept because otherwise poor people will do it unsafely” argument. Although I disagree with ubiquitin, he attempts to justify his position from a Torah standpoint. This argument, however, does not come from the Torah, but the horrible state of affairs in American culture. People are pushed towards abortion due to a combination of economic and cultural factors. If someone has an unplanned pregnancy, their local Planned Parenthood or college health center will help them… if they choose abortion. But prenatal care? Ha! Good one. Tell me, is that truly “choice”? Is that pro-woman and pro-family? And I blame both Republicans and Democrats.
For Republicans, who cares how much it costs, or whether someone undeserving benefits, if programs that help make having a baby no longer a “burden” can eliminate economics as an abortion pressure? A big part of what the conservative -funded crisis pregnancy centers do for women is help them to navigate the red tape to get benefits such as Medicaid and WIC. Why cut those programs? In my perfect world, prenatal and maternal care would be free, paid parental leave would be a given, and if Republicans and Democrats want to fight over child care benefits vs tax credits for stay-at-home parenting, fine. Having a baby should be a blessing, not an “oh no, how are we going to do this?”
As for Democrats? Where to even begin? Before 2016, the Democratic Party Platform stated that abortion should be “legal, safe, and rare.” In 2016? They dropped the “rare.” Buttigieg and Sanders have essentially stated that pro-life Democrats are unwelcome in the tent, even though Democratic supported programs could be touted as pro-life to win back the heartland. There is a cultural push from the left to put abortion on a pedestal. Women who have abortions with no regrets are praised and featured in media stories. Women who feel regret or sadness are somehow broken, wrong, victims of right wing propaganda. The secular culture surrounding us is shifting to a place where it could very soon be considered morally wrong, CV”S, to prolong the life of sick elders or to allow the birth of children with potential disabilities or to parents without means.
These things – cutting or deriding programs that make it economically feasible for people to have children in an urban/suburban society that make children expensive, while removing morality from the culture and making abortion, assisted suicide, etc. into virtues, work in tandem. A pox on both houses, I say.
mw13,
“While that might not sound like a lot, if half the world gets sick (which is unfortunately fairly likely) we can expect to lose 1% of the world’s population.”
I think it’s highly unlikely that the denominator in these fatality rate estimates is known, so it’s extremely premature to be making these kinds of extrapolations.
klugeryid,
“josef never even insinuated that
dont interject your negativity into someone elses comment and then excoriate him on it”I have not once excoriated Joseph on this thread, nor even addressed him directly. Syag objected to what Joseph wrote, and it was pretty clear that you did not understand her objection, instead getting hung up on her colloquial reference to dan l’kaf zechus. The ream of halachic sources you and chash subsequently threw out don’t even directly apply, since the specific issue, if there is one, is motzi shem ra, not literal dan l’kaf zechus.
chash,
“people rationalize aveiros all the time, and they do it for watching stuff like the super bowl too, in fact…”
“A person i know just came over to me telling me that he was horrified, that although he was aware that they were going to watch the superbowl, he took it for granted that they would shut it for the half time…”
I agree with everything you wrote in your post. It’s quite different in tone and even substance from what Joseph wrote.
klugeryid,
”
The gemorah does it.
The gemorah actually does even more
ג דברים אין אדם ניצול בכל יום מיעוטן בגזל, רובם בעריות , וכולם באבק לשון הרע”I don’t think that Joseph and Chazal are comparable, and their intentions are quite different. I think assessing intention is part of our disagreement here.
“I’m not following your circular issue at all so I have no comment.”
That’s never stopped you before.
klugeryid,
“What are you even talking about?”
Joseph’s post with my interlinear comments:
People [specifically those who post in the CR, as he makes clear in later responses] rationalize all sorts of aveiros [I have no objection to this statement]; so expect a litany of excuses here [in the CR, he is telling us what the CR participants specifically are going to do] why this aveira [viewing awful pritzus] is okay and why this aveira (pritzus and whole list of worse things [!!!]) “really” isn’t such an aveira [i.e., expect the people on the CR to justify some of the worst aveiros people can do]. Or that one day a year is okay to take a break from not doing aveiros [not even twist things around to say it’s not a sin, just straight up say that sinning is fine].
These are powerfully negative things to say, and it’s not a leap at all to posit that someone who actually espouses such things would be beyond redemption. However, nobody in the CR actually did the things he said to expect. This isn’t even an issue of dan l’kaf zechus.
klugeryid,
“however as in the case above you responded while on afterburner and thus clarity was lost…
That’s exactly what I meant by women being more emotional.”He wrote that about you.
zahavasdad,
“The argument against watching sports is Bittual torah, not Prizus”
Not that I’ve seen, either in this thread or other discussions of sports. You can’t shoot an arrow, then paint a target where it landed and claim a bullseye. I’ve seen some argue that sports fandom is a huge financial and emotional investment in something that is hevel at its core (not a uniquely Jewish argument), but that is not the same thing as bitul Torah. And the theme of this thread through and through has been specifically issues of exposure to pritzus while watching the Superbowl.
klugeryid,
“but i would contend that as the posters here are anonymous, it is not the same as casting aspersions on a person or defined group”
The problem with that is that this is a frum Jewish Web site, so “anonymous” defaults to “frum Jews.”
“however i keep falling back on the position that since there is a bening [benign?] way to view his comment, she should have done so at least according to her logic and worldview”
I don’t follow from Syag’s post that she holds one is required to search the galaxy for a limud zechus on every comment made under the sun. She didn’t like Joseph’s assertion that a group of Jews were beyond redemption and would surely sin. Your contention at first seemed to be that Joseph was referring to irredeemable sinners. But that is circular reasoning and makes no sense. Irredeemable sinners are irredeemable sinners. Why does that need to be said? You also said that the CR is not a definable group of Jews. So I wrote what I did above. And I’m not sure at all that it’s ok to cast aspersions on an undefined group of Jews.
zahavasdad,
“If you can learn all day without breaks, then you should not be bittual torah for it, but for those of us not on that madreiga of the Choftez Chaim or other gedoli yisroel we need to pick our battles”
You have moved the goalposts (pun intended). First, nobody here who has objected to watching the Super Bowl has done so on the basis of bitul Torah. The basis is the pritzus inherent in an event that purposefully tries to push the boundaries of what even the hedonistic secular American culture finds acceptable. And whether it is possible to partake safely in any part of such an event (by trying to skip the commercials, halftime, etc).
klugeryid,
“Probably what you learned was referring to a specific group. Meaning One of two things
1) all satMar do….. So that would be wrong because you are casting aspersions on a specified group of people
2) see that group over there? They…….
That would also be wrong.”Ah, but Joseph was casting aspersions on a specified group of people: the denizens of the CR. He said as much in a follow-up post where he noted his 10+ years of experience with such “people.” I would like to point out that in 62 posts and counting so far in this thread, B”H not a single person has tried yet to justify stam viewing pritzus as he contended.
“He spoke about those who watch or defend those who watch.”
Not exactly. He contended that people here on the CR were the sort of people who watch or defend those who watch. I think that’s what bothered Syag.
rightwriter,
“Why did it take so many years from creation for Judaism to develop as well as other monotheistic religions? How come idolatrous religions are still alive and strong even in this age of understanding?”
I am not privy to Hashem’s reasons for the timing of when He gave the Torah, though there are various factors that are discussed. And who says that this is an age of (religious) understanding?
“Obviously there are many instances where modern medicine is not fit to cure and more homeopathic and herbal remedies are necessary and can fix. Wouldn’t it be strange if Judaism doesn’t have those essential secrets but having to rely on other religious wisdom?”
Who says all wisdom is religious wisdom? We are allowed to utilize non-religious wisdom that comes from the nations around us, such as technology or medicinal cures.
rightwriter,
“What symbol/icon in Judaism symbolizes/represents Judaism the most?”
This is a subjective question. I think most people today would most associate the 6-sided “magen David” star with Judaism, though on the scale of Jewish history, it’s a fairly recent association. The seven branched menorah from the beis hamikdash probably represents Judaism the most.
“What customs in our religion have any skeptical/unclear origins? Are there any customs which Judaism adopted from other religions or are they undoubtedly Jewish origins(red string,blue eye etc.)?”
That depends on how you define “our religion” and “Judaism.” Also, I am an Orthodox Jew and interact with many other Orthodox Jews, and the “red string” and “blue eye” are not things that I encounter or think about.
“Did all religions originate from or originally based on Judaism? Is there any wisdom in other religions that may have been forgotten in Judaism such as the “matanos” that were given to Hagar on her departure?”
No. Idolatrous religions were all made up by people. Christianity and Islam did derive some of their ideas from Judaism. As far as wisdom in other religions, Jews are strictly forbidden from investigating other religions and their practices.
“Why isn’t Judaism the most ancient of all religions if it is the correct one or is it the most ancient just wasn’t officially considered a religion?”
Judaism was designed for Jews, the nation of descendants of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yaakov who were slaves in Egypt and taken out of there by Hashem, and righteous converts who join that nation. The building blocks of Judaism (e.g., Torah) were in the world since it was created.
“What’s with Sefer raziel hamalach? Any thoughts?”
None from me.
5ish,
“It is bordering on an insanity that some of you seem to be incapable of understanding that a person would suffer from having the derech in Avodas Hashem of his Rebbeim mocked, and you think that expressing that is somehow lacking in “Ahavas Yisroel.””
My objection is not at all directed towards the personal suffering experienced by the Baal HaTanya, but rather the way this story is used, and turning it into a holiday. It canonizes a group of Torah observant Jews as villains in a way that I don’t think has ever been done previously by any other group of Torah observant Jews.
Milhouse,
“Yes, DSG, it is really correct. That is what happened. Yes, Chabad loves all Jews, including the worst resha’im, and definitely including misnagdim. But misnagdim hated chassidim, and the fact is that the Alter Rebbe’s suffering during the few hours he was stuck in the misnaged’s home was worse than he had suffered the whole 53 days he was in prison.”
This story turns “loving all Jews” on its head. To make a holiday celebrating the founder of Chabad’s “rescue” from a misnagid where a few hours in his house was worse than 53 days in a Russian prison does not reflect love. It’s canonizing a libel. An implication that misnagdim are far worse than Russian anti-Semites. Early Christianity demonized “Pharisees” through anecdotes similar to this despite the fact that it was the brutal Roman oppressors who killed their deity, and those libels had devastating consequences for the Jewish people over the past 2000 years.
While anti-Chabad sentiment certainly exists, there are no anti-Chabad holidays on the Snag calendar. Hatred can flow in more than one direction.