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Always_Ask_Questions,
“I am not inclined to give any of these factions an opportunity for nonsensical debates.”
On behalf of the Jewish people, I apologize. We’ll try to do better. With that off my chest, I do feel the need to mention that the true “halachic debates” are not taking place here in the CR, nor on the streets, nor even the shul kiddush.
ujm,
“This timeline coincided with the mass entry of women into the workforce.”
I think this is a factor, but there are other reasons as well for the declining fertility rate. There has been a decline in physical fertility as well, partly due to people marrying and trying to start families later, but also potentially due to environmental factors that are slowly becoming more defined.
huju,
“I do not recall any post this long or detailed from ujm. Did he/she have help in preparing it, and was he/she paid, directly or indirectly, to post it?”
You must be fairly new here đ
Also, just because a poster supports a position you disagree with doesn’t mean he is paid to do so.
n0mesorah,
“A good start would be by looking at the hard facts and cold science, before getting into hard to define cultural issues.”
What’s cold science?
Make sure to roast the egg before Shabbos, or if roasted on Y”T, eat it on Y”T.
Reb Eliezer,
“The Rav can pasken if it is a chiyuv”
Boom. Thank you.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“But, no, it is more scholarly to go through all achoronim on an issue that will not affect most of us.
FOCUS on what is important.”
Yiddishkeit is not a zero sum game between mitzvos l’Makom and mitzos l’chaveiro. To think that focusing on one causes loss in the other is the influence of the yetzer hara. One should focus on and be stringent in both, because both are important. Those who have said otherwise have gone on to form things like Christianity and Reform Judaism.
Reb Eliezer,
“Use your common saichel”
You and rational have brought in sources but have failed to answer this specific shaila. You talk about tircha b’tzibbur, but kaddish yasom said by a chiyuv is NOT tircha b’tzibbur. And rational brings halachos about a non-chiyuv saying kaddish yasom, but we are talking about a chiyuv. This is not a matter of what’s the bracha on corn flakes. This is a real shaila that deserves to be asked. And given Always_Ask_Question’s clear lack of knowledge of the halachic process, I am rather surprised that you would discourage him from asking a shaila of a rav. That’s dangerous.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Note the differences between my examples and yours”
My purpose in bringing that story was to show that we do not pasken from stories. That is not how Judaism works. You are not the rabbis in your stories, and your situation is not like theirs. Also, I believe you are misapplying the message of those stories you’ve brought. The strong reaction from the rabbis regarding someone asking a shaila when there is a safek pikuach nefesh is to teach us to never delay in acting when there is a safek pikuach nefesh. The message is NOT that shailos are to be avoided when possible in all matters.
“This is straight halakhic reasoning.”
No it’s not. It’s not even close.
“how did Bolshevik coup in Petersburg happen in Moscow, and why did some Bolsheviks went after Jews on that day instead of going after the Provisional government as they were supposed to?”
I was recalling the story from memory, so the specific details may not have been correct. Whatever. I’m not the one trying to pasken from a story.
rational,
And do you have any comments on the idea of paskening for oneself based on stories and implicit permission through not getting rebuked? Do you think a shaila should not be asked?
rational,
Always_Ask_Questions I believe has a chiyuv.
And since we can apparently pasken with stories, here’s a famous one:
A Jewish man who worked in Moscow’s diamond exchange was walking to work one morning, when an older fellow accosted him on the street and asked him to help make a minyan so he could say kaddish (he had a yartzeit). The man followed the older man into a small shul, thinking he was number 10, and the guy would learn some mishnayos, say kaddish, and share some nosh. But upon entering the shul, he saw he was number 6, and the older man went back out into the street to find more Jews. He waited for a while as the man slowly found some other men, and finally there was a minyan. To his shock, the man began davening shacharis from the beginning. He felt some annoyance, and told the man he needed to get to work, but the older man shushed him and said he had yartzeit and would say all of the kaddishes and davening. The man grumbled, realizing how late he’d be to work, but didn’t want to break the minyan by leaving. So he stayed, and the older man davened the whole shacharis, said some mishnayos, and shared some nosh. When the man went back out into the street, there was a great commotion. That day, the Bolsheviks had staged a coup and taken control of the government, and Jews were being rounded up and arrested at the diamond exchange. By delaying him with the davening and kaddishes, the old man had saved his life.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Those who say tircha is not a big deal, maybe forgot the beginning of the thread: this is an outdoor minyan on a cold windy day. Piskei dâZimra and kadishem before were already skipped. Nobody is sitting, kal vehomer talking. (Those who feel that masks are a threat should feel even stronger).”
Now who’s filling in the blanks with the worst possible assumptions? I did not write tircha b’tzibbur was no big deal, nor did anyone else on this thread that I recall. It is a big deal; however, saying kaddish is also a big deal. And we need to sort out which “wins” halachically in this specific case. And you decided for yourself to not say kaddish, but seemingly based it on gedolim stories that dealt with pikuach nefesh and the fact that you went ahead and did it and the gabbai/rabbi didn’t object. I don’t think that reflects the serious consideration or requisite knowledge that this shaila and those kaddishes deserve. You may discover that your course of action is correct per the rav in this particular case, but it is far better to have that certainty than a bunch of maybes. We don’t get on the freeway thinking, “maybe I buckled my kid in his car seat… I am a strong believer in safety belts, and he’s not piped up that he’s not buckled.”
rational, Reb Eliezer, and Always_Ask_Questions,
We are not talking here about adding extra kaddishes. We are talking about skipping kaddishes that are part of the set davening, e.g., after R’ Yishmael omer, after mizmor shir chanukas habayis, and after the shir shel yom (I’m assuming the one he does is the one after Aleinu). Those kaddishes certainly do not fall under the category of unnecessary or added, so I do not see how the halachos you are pasting are relevant to the shaila. This is not about being flippant with Hashem’s brachos or kaddishes. We are supposed to say those kaddishes and get great merit for doing so.
In fact, the rampant misapplication of halachos to this discussion only underscores the absolute necessity to ask a shaila of a knowledgeable rav.
Reb Eliezer,
So you quoted two specific halachos regarding tircha d’tzibbur. Does this mean we can use tircha d’tzibbur to cut things out of davening without a shaila? What about tachanun? Kaddishes? Chazaras hashas? Pesukei d’zimra?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Avram, I was totally not nogea bâdavar: I was not in a hurry and not cold.”
Those are not the only factors that would make you nogea b’davar.
“I did not need rationalizing.”
So why are you? You have not stated any direct halachos or opinions in this thread that you are relying on for skipping kaddishes. Your main arguments have been rebbe stories that are irrelevant to the issue at hand and the fact that the gabbai and rabbi at the minyan are not directing you to say the kaddishes. That is textbook rationalizing.
“I saw other people being cold.”
So perhaps it is your personal rachmanus that makes you nogea b’davar. Or perhaps like the OP you feel embarrassed for some reason making people wait for you. Who knows? Unlike what you accused below, I’m trying to avoid speculating. All we see is that you have made a controversial halachic decision without consulting a rav, And when pressed on it you have provided no halachic basis, only rationalizations, and you have decided to make not asking a shaila your hill to plant your flag on and make your stand. And that’s a really strange hill on which to make a stand. Everything you have brought forth in the rebbe stories about not asking a shaila pertains to pikuach nefesh situations where taking the time to ask a shaila may increase the danger. This situation is NOT equivalent. At worst it is a question of tircha d’tzibbur (and I maintain that a regularly scheduled kaddish is NEVER tircha b’tzibbur). It is incorrect to extrapolate from one to the other. And we have psakim for these situations, not maybes and rebbe stories.
“I agree that if I were to have personal inclination to skip, I should have asked the Rav in the minyan. The problem was â the Rav might have been cold, so he was nogea bâdavar :). He would have been forced to tell me to say all of them in order to resist his own yetzer harah! In truth, if I were nogeah bâdavar, I would not have skipped.”
That’s not how things work. The rav cannot change his psak based on whether or not he is cold. The halacha is the halacha, so he is not “forced” to tell you one way or the other based on his feelings. If he’s concerned that his personal involvement may color his psak somehow, then he can ask his own shaila.
“As to Hashemâs will, maybe He wants us to take care of other people despite our desire to say an extra kaddish â rather than ask shailos about it.”
Just ask the shaila. It’ll take 5 minutes and you can remove the “maybe” from your sentence! We don’t want a lot of “maybes” when doing Hashem’s will. That becomes very dangerous very fast.
“please notice that you seem to put in the worst assumptions about any missing pieces in my story: I had my own interest, I donât know whether my Rav will correct me or not.”
I am only responding to what you have written. I have made no assumptions about your motivations or anything else.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I personally was involved in a couple of competitive intellectual pursuits over years, so I know what I donât know reasonably well.”
I’m not sure you are getting the point of why it’s important to ask a shaila regarding skipping kaddishes. This isn’t about how much you know. You may well know of opinions that allow skipping things in davening, but if you really felt sure about the ground you stood on, you wouldn’t be writing things like the gabbai sees me do it but doesn’t object – that’s rationalizing. In fact it’s even worse, because you’re essentially relying on a gabbai who doesn’t even know he’s being silently asked a shaila for your psak rather than directly asking a rav. When you paskened skipping kaddishes for yourself, you did what you thought best and followed your own will. Our goal as Jews is to follow Hashem’s will. We put Him in the driver’s seat, not drive ourselves and hope He came along for the ride because the gabbai didn’t object. And the best way to do that is to ask a shaila of a rav who is not nogeia b’davar. Asking shailos isn’t always because you “don’t know.”
Little Froggie,
“Interestingly, their battle cry used to be âGlobal Warmingâ. When faced with an many an occasional âglobal coolingâ (like today), they changed their anthem.. now itâs climate change.”
You’re mixing up your mocking. The line is supposed to be, “back in the 1970s it was global cooling, then it became global warming, and now it’s climate change.” But I have a few questions. Who are they that have a battle cry? And who’s heading up the department of semantics on what to call it? Climate scientists still frequently use the term AGW (anthropogenic global warming), so somebody’s gotta get them on the right page.
“Like years ago the climate didnât change.”
Of course it did and does, with both harmful and beneficial impacts to the inhabitants of this world. Does this mean we shouldn’t optimize how we adapt to it? Or investigate whether we are one of the factors that cause changes in the climate system? And how we can maximize the benefits and minimize the hazards?
Reb Eliezer,
We generally want ozone to be up in the statosphere, because when it’s at ground level, we find it rather unpleasant and issue air quality alerts for it.
WolfishMusings,
“So, Iâve been wondering if I am guilty of wasting peopleâs time and, if so, what can I do about it?”
A few of my thoughts:
1. When mispallelim come to shul to daven, the expectation is that kaddishes will be said, hence the brief awkward silences that occur before people realize nobody is saying kaddish and they move on. Since people have already mentally given this time to kaddish, it cannot be a waste, and you are actually preventing awkwardness by saying it.
2. I heard someone recently ask a rav a related shaila at a late maariv – the man noticed that at the shacharis and mincha minyanim, there was a fellow who would say kaddish after aleinu if there were no mourners present. He himself didn’t have a chiyuv to say kaddish but felt drawn to doing so and was wondering if it was appropriate for him to so something like that at maariv. The rav said (in a simplified retelling) that it is considered a good thing to end the davening with a kaddish, and the man was welcome to say kaddish at the end of maariv if he wanted to. And so he has ever since. So adding kaddishes enhances the tefilla b’tzibbur, certainly not a waste of time.
3. As others have pointed out, there is tremendous spiritual benefit to answer amein to a kaddish. So your question is kind of like asking, “at the end of davening I take a bag of gold coins and toss a few of them to each of the mispallelim. Am I wasting their time?”
4. I think you are well aware of #3, so is your OP meant as a subtle criticism of how people trivialize davening (e.g., that sense of relief that ripples through the room when the shaliach tzibbur starts kaddish right after chazaras hashas signaling no long tachanun)? Or is it a setup for another of your “I’m a rasha” threads?
“i guess we should send our kids to public school”
Survivor bias.
Yserbius123,
“You can, if you want to. But it basically means getting off the Internet entirely. Most non-Google websites use Amazon Web Services to some extent. And online retailers take advantage of Amazonâs infrastructure.”
Which suggests that while not a Free Speech issue, Amazon’s control of the Internet may be an Antitrust issue.
ujm,
“The world was created for the use of it by humanity.
Chop down those trees.”
Agreed – but do you think we have a responsibility to use the world in as smart a way as our knowledge makes possible in order to maximize the benefit to humanity?
PaperBridge,
” I do not believe that Jewish people are more disposed to this ridiculous belief than other people, and I find it incredible that you might think from what I wrote that I do. I am addressing the belief because it was explicitly stated by an individual person to whom I am replying.”
Nah, you are not. The OP didn’t “explicitly” state that s/he doesn’t care about humanity, or refrains from “mixing” with others, or anything about tolerance, art science, whatever. Nor did s/he say s/he was yeshivish, loved money, or anything about fancy eyeglasses. All of those things you dreamed up from your own prejudices and projected them onto the OP.
PaperBridge,
“Better just to love money and maybe also fashion eyeglasses which are very yeshivish”
Antisemite much?
charliehall,
“Can you answer why any religious person could ever support a rasha like Trump?”
I’m not sure if this is a rhetorical question intended to shame Jews who don’t think like you or if you actually want an answer. I have a fairly detailed perspective on this if you are willing to listen and discuss instead of debate and berate. I am disgusted with politics in general, so while I do have strong opinions on various issues, I do not see myself as a partisan.
“I strongly support cancel culture and every Jew should. Just yesterday I publicly called for the cancellation of David Duke, Tamika Mallory, Louis Farrakhan, and Linda Sarsour. If you disagree you might want to look at your priorities”
Lol, everyone would indeed strongly support cancel culture if they got to be the ones doing the cancelling, and could cancel just those people with opinions they despise. The problem is, Linda Sarsour is much more likely to be the decider of what to cancel than you are. Remember that you teach in a Jewish university.
Yserbius123,
“you are pulling the same old schtick of ignoring my main point to focus on some narische technical inaccuracies. Fine I was wrong about Eretz Yisroel. Nu, what about the vaccination program?”
It’s one thing to not read what others write, but do you not even read what you yourself write? Your post had the following structure:
1.) Assertion
3.) Real life example to back up your assertionI then shared a link to a story apparently contradicting your real-life example. I thought maybe you’d say the story was wrong and back that up with information you had seen. Maybe the story was describing conditions a couple of weeks ago and things have improved since and you could show me that. But it seems that you just made up your real-life example because it sounded good, and you dropped it like a hot potato the minute it was contracticted. Narische technical inaccuracy? Eretz Yisroel was your key supporting statement! How can anyone trust your main point when you undercut it with inaccurate proofs? If a rocket engineer points a rocket downward instead of upward on the launchpad and it then explodes in a giant fireball, was that a technical inaccuracy as well, and we should ignore it to praise the engineer for making such a beautiful rocket?
Yserbius123,
“For the first time in weeks, the strain on the hospitals is easing up”
Israeli Hospitals Collapsing: “Soon We’ll Have To Decide Who Will Live & Who Will Die”
charliehall,
Apologies from this gnat who deserves no medical whatsoever care because he dares ask questions regarding the Great Priests of capital-S Science and their multi-billion dollar industry of holy sacraments for the imposition to your time.
“So say the results from two huge randomized clinical trials”
×× ××ר ××××˘× ××, should we read these papers with the trop used for leining the Torah, or the Haftarah?
“Basically, if you donât accept their results you should never ever waste your time going to see any doctor for anything”
There’s a difference between not accepting the results of a trial, and questioning whether the right questions were asked in the first place, or whether enough time has elapsed to get the answers. And given how science is fundamentally based on asking questions, it’s amazing how medical scientists and doctors in particular get really angry and bothered by questions. My field endures more questions and gets less respect overall than medical science, and deals with implications that are just as big as medicine, yet I don’t get angry when people question and doubt findings, even when those questions and doubts come from a lack of knowledge. Many times through listening I find that it’s not the science that they are rejecting, but the policies advocated in response to those findings. And those discussions are both valuable and productive.
“because you do not believe in modern medical science”
Since when does “science” ask for our belief? If you set up Science as a new religion, is it any wonder that religious Jews resist conversion to it?
“I have not seen any medical treatment that has been shown to be so effective, with so few serious adverse events, ever in my career”
Amazing what can be done when trials are designed from the outset to succeed.
rightwriter,
Regarding what nefarious things you think ubiquitin is thinking, you made it up and it just makes your posts look rude.
Regarding asking someone else to delete the messages you sent them, you have a right to politely ask once, and they have a right to say no. And you have a right to no longer send them personal messages if you think they are not being respectful of your private communications to them. Everything that is sent to someone else electronically should be assumed to be potentially permanently available, and there isn’t much of anything we can do about it. Adjust accordingly.
Did you know that with Signal you can send messages that delete automatically from the recipient’s device after a period of time following the recipient reading it?
charliehall,
“denied boarding an airplane because he got put on the no-fly list after being part of the murderous mob that stormed the US Capitol”
Apparently the video was of a passenger removed from a flight for refusing to wear a mask. Someone on the FBI’s no-fly list would likely be unable to get a boarding pass, much less reach the gate. Perhaps social media isn’t the best place to be getting our news đ
ubiquitin,
“In addition to the 4 Rosh Hashanas you reference In September, I wish hatzlacha to the new year in school. I and they consider September to be the start of a new school year Ialways wish them success on the new year in September, or Elul as the case may be. Is this allowed?”
You are ignoring context to quibble with Little Froggie over semantics. The school year legitimately and appropriately affects us, and is clearly an arbitrary date set for convenience by school systems. The medical school year is just another type of school year. Fiscal and tax years affect us too, and are purely secular, though it’s a bit strange to wish people happy fiscal new years. But how should the non-Jewish religious observance of New Years Day affect us as Jews?
You may ask why then did LF have to bring in the other new years listed in the mishna, but I believe he did so because all of those new years are religious in nature, as is New Years Day.
Yserbius123,
“What about wearing a mask for 15 minutes to an hour at a time and taking it off for breaks in secluded corners when there are no people around?”
Sounds like good ideas to me.
“There were some people who felt too uncomfortable, so they would walk outside for a few minutes.”
Why didn’t you say this before?
“Which is why the whole âdebateâ baffles and angers me, I really canât understand why there are still so many people ignoring COVID-19 restrictions.”
I think the issues are far more complex than, “I feel uncomfortable” for many people, so assuming it’s all about discomfort or difficulty may make it hard to understand where others are coming from, which makes it hard to reach them.
Yserbius123,
“May I re-iterate my suggestion to read Rabbi Shafranâs article before going veiter? He basically says the same things that I said in the same tone that got me accusations of being âdisrespectfulâ or âhatefulâ.”
In his column, Rabbi Shafran mostly discussed his own personal experiences and journey, and he respectful exhorted people to try wearing the masks and getting used to them. He didn’t cast aspersions on anyone or write in a highly dismissive and angry manner.
Yserbius123,
“Letâs take a step back. Do you personally think that masks are dangerous to wear or not?”
For the majority of people when worn for relatively short periods of time? No. They do cause us to work harder to breathe, which again for most people over short duration is doable, but may be more problematic for extended periods of time or for people with other difficulties. I feel they also generate more face touching due to pulling on or adjusting the mask, and it is a challenge to keep them sanitary.
“Do you think that most people who donât wear masks do so because they are physically incapable of wearing one or because they are uncomfortable?”
I think the reasons some people do not wear masks or resist wearing them are complex and differ from person to person.
MadeAliyah,
“Probably not, forcing someone to do something TO HIMSELF to make you feel good is a form of bulling.”
Yserbius123 is not arguing for people to wear masks in order to assuage others’ fears or make them feel good, he is arguing that it helps protect others’ health.
Yserbius123,
“When asked for the reasons why people donât wear masks, we keep getting back to âitâs difficult for a lot of peopleâ. NU? And thatâs a reason?”
I have not answered that question in this thread, and that wouldn’t be my answer to that question.
“@Avrum-in-MD claims (contrary to a scientific study that he himself linked to) that masks lower oxygen intake and increase CO2.”
There must be some other Avrum in MD on this thread whose posts are inexplicably invisible to me, because I never said any such thing.
“And you have defended both of them and said that âitâs not rightâ that we should argue.”
Argue all you want; this is an extremely important issue for almost everyone in the world right now. I’m just pointing out that if you want to claim the mantle of Science and Logic and Rightness, you should not be misinterpreting, twisting, fabricating, or twisting logic yourself. And further than that, if you desire to change minds rather than just scream into the void at your perceived enemies, you have to understand where your audience is coming from.
Yserbius123,
“I was taking @daas-yochid s story to the logical place”
No, you made up your own story that was different from DaasYochid’s and then made a wild extrapolation from that made up story. Logic isn’t even in the same galaxy.
“Because they didnât stick a CO2 measurement device right in the guys face?”
Lol, if you actually read the study’s abstract or what I wrote about it, you’d see that they did indeed do that.
“I tried to have empathy. I really did. But I lost it maybe about six months ago. It may have been some time between when I first got asked âAre you makpid on masks?â and when I watched a live feed of a simcha where hundreds of people were dancing together without any concern for COVID. Or maybe it was the time when a Yeshiva Bachur broke the rules to attend a simcha and ended up putting several of his Rebbeim in the hospital.”
So you need to make a choice. Do you actually want to try and effect change, or do you just want to spew hatred like an out-of-control fire hose? Given your inability to read and understand what people have written here in this thread, I’m guessing you have failed to understand where people are coming from “in real life” as well. So perhaps the source of your frustration is not due to those around you.
“I would like to hear it. I would be interested to hear a single local doctor say to one of their long time patients âItâs better if you donât wear a maskâ.”
He feels the response to the pandemic is wildly disproportionate and has caused considerable collateral damage that was unnecessary, and does not require his patients to wear masks during visits. I don’t know how you define “local” doctor. He practices in my area, but he is not frum.
“In my community, there are basically four practices with frum doctors that people go to. And each one of those has been extremely loud and open that not enough people are wearing masks or following other COVID protocols.”
And the loudness in press releases and twits and fakebooks and the like is actually counterproductive in my opinion, because the community perceives that the yelling is meant more for gentile consumption. “Look at me! I’m embarrassed by my own community!” Really, has anyone anywhere ever said, “oh wow I changed my mind because somebody screamed at me on social media”?
Yserbius123,
“Iâm referring to an old comment that @daas-yochid made in which he fabricated a story about Hatzalah”
You fabricated that comment and falsely attributed it to him. And it’s astonishing that you’re doubling down because what DaasYochid actually wrote is plain for everyone to read. And thus I start to doubt your intentions entirely.
“I donât know what studies youâve read”
I was referring to Raymond J Roberge, Aitor Coca, W Jon Williams, Jeffrey B Powell, Andrew J Palmiero: Physiological impact of the N95 filtering facepiece respirator on healthcare workers in the May 2010 edition of Respiratory Care, which is a study I’ve seen referenced in several articles regarding mask safety.
“Fakert, there are multiple studies that show zero physical adverse side effects from wearing a face mask, even for people with respiratory issues.”
Please share the citations.
“Which is why Iâm extremely skeptical of anyone who talks about large swaths of people that cannot wear masks.”
If someone tells me that something is extremely difficult for them, I tend to believe them a lot more than someone who is blatantly lying and making stuff up on the internet.
“Sure there are those who have psychological issues, like panic attacks when wearing a mask, or people who have abnormally large or small facial features that make masks extremely uncomfortable.”
So you finally admit this, albeit bizarrely. Now take the next step into the world of empathy. Not necessarily to say that you’re fine if these people refrain from ever wearing masks, but at least to acknowledge that it’s a true challenge, and stop dismissively pontificating on how easy mask wearing is. If mask wearing is really so important to you, which I doubt, encourage people. Treat them like they’re doing something big and important, not trivial. Acknowledge the difficulties they have and offer sympathy and amelioration, not scorn. If you think people would benefit from finding just that right mask, then start a mask gemach that allows people to try on different types, and then give them 5 of the ones that work best. Things like that will go much further than internet bullying, though they may be less fun.
<blockquote”call up your doctor. Not some doctor you heard of on the Internet, but the physician youâve trusted with your health since before COVID. And ask them if itâs better to wear or not to wear a mask.”
You’re probably not going to like my doctor’s opinion.Yserbius123,
“You literally invented a story about Hatzalah running amok because everyone was dying from wearing face masks.”
Before we continue this discussion, are you actually anti-facemask and trying to do a false-flag troll by making pro-mask arguments as odious and unproductive as possible? It’s almost like you are working from a playbook of what not to do to persuade others.
Yserbius123,
“We have to measure what the bigger danger is: wearing a mask or not wearing one.”
There’s no way to make accurate measurements if we can’t even be honest about what we are trying to measure.
“The people who physically or psychologically are unable to wear masks are very few, perhaps one out of 1000.”
Oooh, I can make up statistics too. That should be fun and constructive! Maybe I should just be grateful that you’re allowing 1 in a thousand. Earlier in the thread you were at zero.
“The majority of those who claim they canât wear masks, simply havenât found one that they feel comfortable in and donât see a pressing need to wear one.”
And on what do you base this assumption?
“So itâs a question of forcing that tiny minority of people who canât wear masks to be stuck inside until the pandemic is over, or forcing elderly, immune compromised, and other sick people inside until the pandemic is over. Unfortunately, we have to inconvenience the minority (people who canât wear a mask) so that the majority (elderly etc.) wonât be inconvenienced.”
False dilemma.
“And no. Scientists have yet to find a situation where a fabric face mask has restricted someoneâs oxygen. Itâs literally never happened. CO2 and O2 can pass through the fabric of an N95 mask no problem.”
If you’re referring to the study I think you are referring to, there was pretty much no oxygen depletion measured in the blood, a bit of increased CO2 that was still within OSHA standards, but the measurements of the air in the pocket between the mask and the face were well outside of OSHA standards for both low oxygen and high CO2. The study participants were healthy healthcare workers with proper training and fitting of the equipment. I have put a pulse oximeter on my own finger and sat on the couch for 20 minutes in a cloth mask. When breathing normally only, my O2 saturation gradually fell from 98/99 to 95. I could keep it up near 98/99 by frequently sighing, yawning, and tugging on the mask while inhaling. I have (usually) well controlled asthma, but wonder how easy it would be to keep up the O2 saturation if I were having a significant asthma episode (not that I’d be out and about at the grocery store with bad asthma – but what about someone who needs to go in for a breathing treatment?). Or someone with COPD, or congestive heart failure, or Covid, etc.
Yserbius123,
“Letâs get this straight: Wearing a mask is not a big deal.”
It may not be for you, but it is for others. And until you develop enough empathy to see that, you will have difficulty convincing them of the correctness of your position.
“It doesnât restrict oxygen, nor increase CO2 levels.”
In some situations, it can.
“It doesnât make it hard for people to hear you,”
Blatantly false. Widespread mask use has significantly exacerbated communication issues for people hard of hearing. Some masks with thicker layers do in fact block some sound, but a bigger issue is the inability to rely on lip reading and the facial components of ASL Many people with minor hearing loss who unconsciously rely on lip reading in louder settings have discovered their hearing loss issues due to this pandemic. Arguing that exacerbating hearing problems for some is necessary is perhaps a valid argument to make, but to dismiss the problem is heartless because then nobody will realize the need to mitigate such problems, and it undermines the validity of your argument.
Gadolhadorah,
“I think Charlie was referencing the idiot allegedly trying to hold up the shipments of vaccines already contractually obligated, not any of our posters.”
While that was a nice attempt at a limmud zechus and pivot, his insult was clearly directed at the poster he was quoting.
charliehall,
“Idiot.”
Wow, don’t you think the petty name calling is beneath you?
Reb Eliezer,
“I call myself Reb Eliezer to encourage respect to the elderly”
There’s a story of Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L (I think I read it in the Artscroll biography) where he was walking down a street, and a man drove by and called out “Hey Moshe, come here!” to his young son who was also on the street. Rav Moshe walked over to the car, greeted the man, and asked what the man wanted. The driver was floored, and said that he would never refer to the Rav by his first name, or make him walk over to the car. Rav Moshe was completely nonchalant and assumed the man was calling him over!
CTLAWYER,
“My chart says that I am to be addressed as Mister Y”
Explicitly in a section for nickname/preferred name? Then yes the receptionist made a mistake, but a pretty small one in the grand scheme of things. If it’s not explicit, then that’s on the office manager or whoever set up your chart, not the receptionist who called you back.
“I was the only patient in the waiting room, so no other was delayed.”
Then why would the receptionist call out a name three more times to a room empty except for you who didn’t answer the first time? And even if nobody was actively there at the moment, your appointment got off to an unnecessarily later start, which does impact those coming after you.
“The employee deserved a dressing down, it took place in the office, perhaps the office manager should not have been so loud, or maybe the office manager wanted me to hear this.
I had complained about this to the office manager in the past.”No she didn’t. A simple response of “Mr Y is here and ready to go back” along with a smile in response to her “Is X here?” would have politely and clearly gotten the point across. You didn’t score a win for politeness in the world; all you got was a receptionist and office manager who don’t like you so much.