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Shimon Nodel,
“I would strongly suggest he fulfill his obligation to love his wife or else consider finding a different wife he can love.”
That was not the answer I was expecting, but I guess it’s consistent, so there’s that. Do you think commitment, love, and motivation are things that just happen to someone outside of his control, or are they something he can develop within himself and may indeed be obligated to develop?
huju,
I don’t believe I’ve mentioned modern Orthodoxy at all in my replies. I am trying hard to respond directly to what you have written in your OP. What exactly were the types of responses you were anticipating from this thread?
huju,
“The requirements I listed are more directly connected to Torah, Talmud and the mitzvos. The “requirements” you cited […] are the real-world consequences of the observance of the mitzvos.”
I don’t understand the distinction you are making here. The costs of raising children are a real-world “consequence” of the observance of pru urvu. The costs of yeshiva education and the time spent on a bench in kollel instead of in a cubicle at the office are a “consequence” of the observance of limud Torah. How is that categorically different than the consequent costs of kosher food or living near a shul?
“Please read my first sentence after my list of “requirements.” I think it answers your question.”
Your assertion is that the costs of a frum lifestyle as you defined are not sustainable, which others have disputed. My dispute is primarily with your conclusion that due to this non-sustainability it is inevitable that some of these “requirements” will have to be given up. I think that presents a false dilemma, and that there are other potential solutions. I also wanted you to clarify what giving up on these “requirements” looked like to you, because you can’t “save” frumkeit by giving up frumkeit.
Shimon Nodel,
“Not everyone is meant to learn full time in kollel. What if he just isn’t growing in learning and knowledge? What if the cheshek and motivation just isn’t strong?”
Substitute his relationship with his wife for his relationship with his learning in this scenario. What would your advice to him be then?
huju,
“To Avram in MD: You have utterly and completely missed my point”
A few follow-up questions:
Kosher food is expensive, as is making Pesach and Sukkos. And to live a frum lifestyle, being near a shul is a requirement, and most established communities are in areas with high housing costs. Why were these not on your list of requirements? Yes you said “among many other things”, but you selected 6 specific things to discuss. Why those six? And if you’re saying that frum people have to let go of some of those requirements in order to stay “frum” or at least above water, how is my asking which ones and what giving them up looks like missing the point?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“This is not an answer. There is a reason we are learning traditional sources. We learn from Gemora/Rishonim/Aharonim who to resolve modern issues.”
Those same traditional sources say asei l’cha rav. We are supposed to subordinate our will to Hashem, and unless you are thoroughly steeped in Torah, part of that is to ask shailos and have a rav to guide you. Otherwise you risk using the Torah as a spade, to dig out from it what fits your own beliefs rather than allowing it to guide your beliefs.
“You are welcome to quote specific psak and analyze how it applies to previous ones and to modern conditions, but simply outsource a solution is OK for an Am Haaertz, but if someone is trying to defend a lifestyle of learning Torah, you should do better than that.”
Wow, just wow. In Brachos perek vav, we learn Rabbi Yishmael’s view that we should combine Torah learning and earning parnassa, whereas Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai holds to engross yourself completely in Torah, and in that merit others will take care of your parnassa. But even that work/learning balance of Rabbi Yishmael is nothing like what we have today, unfortunately. As Rava said to his talmidim, go take care of your work during Nissan and Tishrei, so you can learn the rest of the year! If you’re going to come at me with “traditional sources” and what they say about learning Torah, you’d best understand their world. It’s nothing like what we have today. And nobody has to defend a lifestyle of learning Torah, ever. The earlier generations made Torah learning their “keva”, and working their “arai”, and they were successful in both. But the weaker generations (still so much greater than us!) did the opposite and they were not successful in either.
huju,
Not accepting the premise of your point is different from missing it.
huju,
“How do you know that shoes usually stink? Do you sniff shoes? Yours? Or others? (My shoes are fine, but I know nothing about others.)”
Sometimes they’re just left right in the middle of the coffee room floor and you can just… tell 😝
Always_Ask_Questions,
“The question is not only whether something is sustainable [Cuban economy is sustainable], but whether this is a good thing for a Jew to do.”
Good thing there are many rabbis and poskim who are aware of how frum Jews live and who advise Jewish families.
“I am not sure what are the classical sources for using non-Jewish, or Jewish, government funds dedicated to support of poor by people who are able to work, while there are sources condemning it (make your Shabbat k’hol, but do ot rely on tzedokah)”
Do you count the taxes you pay as maaser?
huju,
“1. Families of 4-8 kids.”
Do you have a problem with this?
“2. Marriage of women before age 22.”
What would you recommend? Living together unmarried for years like secular people do and then throwing a lavish meaningless wedding at age 42 and collect a lot of presents?
“3. Limited post-high school education for women, limiting their employment choices to relatively low-paying jobs.”
I’d recommend checking out the real frum world rather than some Netflix slander.
“4. Yeshiva and kollel for young men.”
Beats going to Party State University and changing your major 15 times before graduating with a BA in English Lit and years of student loan debt after getting harassed in the student union by pro-Palestinian students for being dressed Jewishly.
“5. Yeshiva/bais yaacov education for all children.”
What else would you recommend? Public school?
“6. Expectation of financial support from parents of young married couples into the couples’ early 30’s.”
Some do, some don’t. It’s discussed by individual families.
“I don’t think this model is sustainable.”
I suspect that you don’t like this stereotyped “model”, and the complaints about its economic sustainability are a cover for that.
“I expect that, in the future, frum families will, correctly, cut corners on the “requirements” I described and thereby sustain the frum lifestyle.”
I expect that frum families serving Hashem and being all in all intelligent will, with siyata dishemaya, figure out how to sustain their frum lifestyles without cutting corners on what’s important. We’re even seeing evidence of this to some extent with the mass migration to Florida where there is more support for private school education, more affordable housing, lower taxes, etc.
“Many frum families do it now, enabling young men and women to become higher-paying professionals, like physicians, lawyers, accountants, teachers (in public schools)”
You lost me there. Public school teachers are, unfortunately and undeservedly, not high earners like the other professionals you listed. So your strange inclusion of public schools specifically within this list of high earning professions tells me that your agenda is not purely an altruistic concern for the economic well being of your fellow Jews, but rather a desire that they abandon their lifestyle for something more palatable to you. So my question is, what would be more palatable to you?
“If the frum community insists on continuation of the requirements I listed, frum life will be jeopardized. Many frum will go off the derech, others will live with unnecessarily heavy economic burdens. Discuss.”
I think you know little about frum families, I think you are creating a false dilemma between these so-called “requirements” and disaster, and I think your personal distaste for these perceived requirements is limiting your ability to see other potential solutions. Discuss.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I started looking at this and I need to talk to your mother: you are browsing either Fbook or RT or something like that, despite having filters on Internet!”
Nah, there was a story right here on YWN titled “Mystery in Israel: This is why the 4th wave hasn’t spread in the Chareidi sector”. There was another story about it in the Times of Israel and is fairly easy to Google. And after reading these I checked some of the near real-time data available online in Israel, and it was reasonably consistent with these articles. Good try on the ad hominem fallacy though.
“US research early 2021: reinfections are 15x less than those who were not, that is close to what Pfizer showed in control trials (20x). Caveat – this is for the same variant.”
Caveat number 2: This study was done in early 2021 when the arms were practically still in band-aids. That gives us no information on how long the vaccine induced immunity lasts, which is the shaila now confronting Israel.
“research shows that vaccine produces antibodies that attack more areas of virus than after natural infection, so should be more effective for new variants (Ref 1)
– light cases of COVID provide virus only to the respiratory tract, while vaccine to the muscle, so it may develop a weaker response.”
“Should” and “may” are words of forecast, and forecasts can be verified. It’s still quite early in the game, and I did not write in definitive terms and provided my own caveats, but the recent data from Israel does raise some questions about how long the vaccine induced immunity lasts. But dear me, I keep forgetting that only some people are allowed to “always ask questions” and only certain questions are considered ok to ask.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“A reference, please?”
I’m not sure if there is published research yet – it’s coming from the Israeli data where recovered Covid cases account for something like 9 percent of the population, but only around 1 percent of new Covid cases in the latest outbreak, whereas the percentage of fully vaccinated cases is close to the percentage of the population that is vaccinated. Of course there are other possible explanations for this – maybe the latest outbreak is happening in different communities than the ones highly impacted by Covid previously such as the Chareidi neighborhoods, but I do not know why that would be so. Chareidim are certainly out and about, and travel, etc.
“All papers I saw indicate much higher levels of antibodies after vaccine than disease.”
Is there a connection between high antibody counts initially and long lasting immunity? I’m not sure about that.
Reb Eliezer,
“The CDC is ruling that people who had COVID should still get vaccinared as the antibodies are not that effective against the delta variant.”
Actually the opposite is becoming increasingly apparent – that immunity garnered from a Covid infection is more effective and longer lasting against the Delta variant than vaccine garnered immunity. It certainly doesn’t mean we should all run out and catch Covid, but why do none of these US-based mandates allow for T cell or antibody tests to demonstrate immunity?
ubiquitin,
“I’m sorry I still don’t get it. The Government is encouraging and paying for the vaccines (yes with tax payer money obviously) what are they gaining? Are they getting kickbacks from the pharmaceutical company. Is that the plan? So De Blasio is being paid by the pharmaceutical company to mandate their vaccine? “
Thanks for the benevolent condescension, and you’re welcome for the chuckles. Kickbacks imply secret, illegal backroom deals that I would have no real knowledge of so I would have to be speculating or making things up in order to piece together my supposed worldview. Unfortunately, there are a plethora of legal, fully out-in-the-open examples of the revolving door and gravy train between drug companies and government. Here are a few.
The largest drug companies contributed to the vast majority of the sitting congressional members’ campaigns in the last election, totaling over $11 million in contributions. In the last 20 years, drug companies spent hundreds of millions on state-level campaigns, hundreds of millions on Federal level campaigns, and billions on lobbying.
In 2015, Congress provided just $331.6 million of the $1.1 billion budget for the FDA prescription drug oversight, while the drug companies they’re supposed to regulate contributed $796,1 million. Fine, they’re just user fees, but every 5 years the FDA is legally required to negotiate the oversight and approval policies with the industry in order to keep collecting these user fees that are now the majority of the oversight budget. That’s quite the stick industry can bring to that table. Drug companies are really good at getting people addicted to things.
For individual government employees, the pharmaceutical companies they help regulate can provide cushy landing spots when they decide to leave government, such as former CDC director Julie Gerberding landing the role of president of Merck’s vaccine division.
Drug companies frequently run their own clinical trials for new drugs. That includes the major Covid 19 vaccines. With billions of dollars and their job security on the line (Pfizer has already made billions on their vaccine), how motivated are the researchers employed by the drug companies to actually find problems? It’s really easy to find no signal in a complex and messy dataset.
Why on earth would they even need kickbacks?
ubiquitin,
“I’m curious what is the matter now. WHY does the government want you to get a vaccine? Do you believe there is a tracker? Is it to get people sick? Why would they do that? kill people? again why?
Just control/power for its own sake? With no deeper goal? to what end? What is their ultimate purpose. I don’t get it, help me wake up”Widespread conflicts of interest among private pharmaceutical companies and the governmental health apparatus and media companies lead to policies and politics favoring the solutions and rhetoric that most benefit those companies’ profits. Vaccines are both extremely profitable and low risk due to laws limiting liability. And associating vaccine and health policy hesitancy solely with Trump and his supporters eliminated the traditional left wing source of skepticism to authority with astonishing effectiveness.
ujm,
“And only put on special clothing for davening and Shabbos. “
But if someone comes to davening in jeans, T-shirt, and baseball cap, there is a high probability that the person does not self-identify as chareidi. So yes I agree with you that clothing is a secondary point and is not integral to what’s most important about being chareidi – as the expression goes, the clothes don’t make the man. But the clothes do tell us what the man wants us to think about him upon our first impression.
rightwriter,
I have a relative who gave some of my kids $2 bills as a gift, and I brought them to a CVS to pick out toys to buy with the gift money. The cashier refused to accept the bills, saying “that’s not real money”, so I ended up paying for the toys using my card. Those bills are still floating around the house somewhere.
As for the dollar coins, I think the two main uses for them are for machines that have to give large amounts of change such as ticket machines for commuter rail, and gambling.
ujm,
“Being Chareidi has close to zero to do with externals such as dress, speech or mannerism. It’s all to do with how to implement practice of halacha and hashkafa.”
Yet there are certain externals such as dress and mannerisms that are defined as “chareidi.” Just as there are externals such as dress and mannerisms that are defined as MO/religious Zionist, like when I get an emphasized “ShabBAT ShaLOM” back in response to my “gut Shabbos” to someone wearing a srugi. People want to identify as part of a group, and that’s ok.
Yabia Omer,
“I guarantee that a massive percentage of the families of people in Lakewood, for example, were not Charedi a couple of generation ago. Maybe not even MO….”
The development of the American Jewish world is not really a representative example. Until the early/mid 1900s, there was not much Torah learning available in the US (many European gedolim were opposed to immigration to America), so many immigrant families became less knowledgeable and more assimilated rather quickly.
Yabia Omer,
“Going Lechumra in everything is not a maala. It been actually be a spit in the face of one’s ancestors who were not noheg like that. Or it may actually be asur. Sometimes one should not be machmir. “
Given that Benephraim made that up, you don’t have to get all offended by it.
Gadolhadorah,
“If you believe the snake oil salesmen … and still leave enough money to go out and buy a a hand-raised, free range chicken for Kaparos and a $500 Calabrian esrog for Succos. Hamayvin yavin. “
An explanation for those who don’t understand you might be good here, because it looks like you are mocking those who do hiddur mitzvah, and I hope I’m interpreting wrong.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“but if you concur that there were better educational options that were not applied in consideration for staff, a better solution would have been to let teachers collect unemployment for a couple of months till summer and then later possibly join a quality online program with your staff.”
I do not concur. In my original response and follow-ups I made several interrelated points in response to your idea to rapidly deploy online schooling. Instead of responding directly to them you have applied a false dilemma to one of them and want to make the conversation about nothing but that.
How will a school deploy online learning to a student body that largely lacks internet connected devices or even an internet connection at home? And libraries and other places with public WiFi are closed.
Online learning is independently driven, but children still require considerable oversight to help manage and organize their tasks. You can’t just throw them in front of a Chromebook in September and say, “see you in June!” Who will perform this oversight? If teachers, they will need training (assuming they are still employed). If parents, what if they need to work?
What if schools were able to reopen much more quickly than they did, and resources have been spent to stand up online programs?
I’m not saying schools made the best or correct decisions at every step, or that online schooling solutions wouldn’t have helped, but I do not think you have magic answers, even on the Monday morning after the game.
“I gave him a very clear picture what needs to be done, it was pretty simple, he bought into that, and had to back up due to people who care about their money more than what the kids learn.”
Did he tell you that directly, or are you assuming that?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“this is where we get lost same way as public school unions – are schools for teachers or for kids. If kids were in dire situation, everything should have been done to help them.”
Nobody knew how long the lockdowns would last, because the goalposts kept moving back. Gutting a school’s experienced staff when the students might have been returning to in-person classes fairly soon might not have been a good idea – the repercussions to learning would have been longer lasting than what many thought was going to be a few weeks to months of remote learning. And what about everything else I wrote?
“This is halakha – we allow unlimited competition between teachers, contrary to other businesses where livelihood of store owners is a valid consideration.”
The halacha is dependent on a large number of variables, and the psak for one school or community may be very different than the psak for another.
Yes, but only as polka dots on a green dress.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I wanted to hear Talmidei Chachamim opinion about the pandemic, as advertised. I was not looking specifically for hizuk on internet issues.”
Was the entire shiur about the Internet? And what was the exact context regarding the Internet and Covid?
“If they would have been slightly creative, they could have.”
Hindsight is 20/20 as they say, and it’s a lot easier to say what should be done than to try and do something.
“There are a lot of online resources available. Schools could have outsourced to the experts, for example.”
Such things cost money, and to outsource would likely mean letting some staff go, and on-the-fly retraining of the remaining staff to work with the online programs. And all the students would need access to computers and the Internet, which is not the case in many communities. Also, nobody knew how long the lockdowns would last; the goalposts kept getting moved on us, and what many thought was a temporary situation dragged on and on.
“one of the schools was, Baruch Hashem, not interested in one of my kids because he, inter alia, attended online school for half a year, which the principal persisted calling “home schooling” despite all the info I gave him.”
Why would a school not accept a child because he was homeschooled for half a year? That makes no sense.
Syag Lchochma,
“not only are those claims heresay, but they actually aren’t happening. I thought the mention of not hearing it first hand in the actual communities was because it isn’t happening there.”
Yes, such as characterizing the “big” internet asifa a number of years ago as “the rabbis banning the Internet”, which it was not. But sometimes it’s not fabricating, but rather a matter of ayin ra, like taking the content of a shiur, or something a rav says, and running it through a negativity filter. Or becoming well versed in all of the machlokes of the bnei Yisroel. We shouldn’t be looking at our tents with Bilaam’s eyes. When I was new to a particular community, a new friend I made said something disparaging about a big rav in the community – that his drashos were fire and brimstone and he didn’t care to hear them. As much as I try to not accept lashon hara, this statement did unfortunately affect my opinion of the rav, until I got a chance to actually listen to a bunch of his drashos and ask him a shaila. Lo and behold, he never brought up gehennom or called us horrible sinners or anything like that. He spoke passionately about how important Torah learning and mitzvos were, and exhorted us to do more, without sugarcoating things. And he answered my shaila with warmth and a twinkle of humor.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I heard this talk myself firsthand online, I am ashamed to say. “
What drew you to tune into that particular talk?
“Many zoom classes were not good.”
Even if all the technical details were pulled off well, spending much of the day on Zoom is not optimal. I work remotely and more than an hour spent in virtual meetings in a work day becomes a tircha. Hence, as you said below, real online schools do not make Zoom classes the ikar. But the brick and mortar schools did not have the ability or resources to convert instantaneously into online schools.
Gadolhadorah,
“I don’t recall seeing any of the rabbonim coming to the Asefas riding a donkey on the NJ turnpike nor do I recall their objecting to using a sound amplification system rather than yelling at the tops of their voices about the evils of the internet etc”
This is the same fallacy that Always_Ask_Questions expressed above. Do you think the objections to the Internet are because it uses electricity, or routers, servers, and Linux? No, it’s the content that’s available via the Internet. If someone published books with some good stories mixed in with highly objectionable material, and rabbis exhorted families to not bring those books into their homes, would you say that rabbis objected to reading?
Gadolhadorah,
“The OP was about some Asifah….”
And the OP is included in my question.
“The last big gathering was not a “gevalt gathering” but that incredible Met Life Stadium daf yomi siyum back on New Years Day 2020 just before the Covid shutdowns.”
Right, but in “CR” parlance, asifa specifically means a gevalt gathering.
“Before that there were several well publicized and reported “internet asifahs”.”
I recall one that was well publicized. And the derision towards the event and the misrepresentation of it by those who did not go nor hold by the rabbeim in attendance seemed to spill far more ink. I’m just wondering why that is.
“P.S. For those who felt “conference calls” were a good substitute for in-person learning or zoom virtual calls, your entitle to your opinion.”
Why on earth would you put Zoom classes into the same category as in-person? Do you think the Zoom classes held by schools were an adequate substitute for their in-person classes? I think education was devastated last year.
“A properly filtered computer appears to have worked for many frum families and schools without resulting in tens of thousand of kids going OTD or a big spike in divorces”
Did you conduct a poll? B”H I’ve not heard of an increase in divorces, but struggles with kids’ education and computer use? Absolutely.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“this is was said by a couple of Rabonim on the phone. I also do not hear the same from the Rabbis in the community”
I am not denying that such a thing was said by anyone, but when these controversial topics are brought up on the CR, it’s never, “so I was in shul and my rav said…” or “in a shiur, the RY at my yeshiva said…” I doubt Gadolhadorah’s rabbi is screaming gevalt about the Internet, and I’m guessing your rabbi isn’t blaming Covid on people using the Internet for work. It’s always hearsay, or someone who had to go out of his/her way to find it and share it here. I am just wondering what the drive is to become highly learned in all sorts of machlokes or controversy that doesn’t really have a personal impact.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Is attitude towards internet is really a community “value”.”
Absolutely.
“Internet is a protocol.”
That’s an etymological fallacy. You know well that when people refer to “the Internet” they are talking about the content that’s available via the Internet, not the details of how content is delivered.
“It can lead to dangerous places, sure. You can argue who and when and how should or not using it. but a “value”.”
That’s exactly what’s being argued, and to care about the potential dangers is indeed to have a value, so why the tempest in a teapot?
“So, someone who wanted to learn during pandemic, would have to limit himself to conference calls.”
If he wasn’t willing to open a connection in his home to the Internet, which as you pointed out can lead to dangerous places, then sure.
“What if he wants to look up a sefer that he does not have at home. Should he have a conference call with Ramban?”
How did we get such great gedolim before the Internet, when they surely did not have every sefer in existence at home? How did people who did not use the Internet before Covid solve this problem before Covid? They went to the beis medrash and got the sefer off the shelf. Same thing during Covid.
Gadolhadorah,
“most yidden will not want to permanently relocate to Yenevelt or some small town in West Virginia.”
Based on lots of conversations I’ve had, I actually think that many families do have an interest in moving to communities in a more suburban or country setting, but it’s hard to be a pioneer and not have the Jewish infrastructure in place. As it is said, build it and they will come.
“Higher demand on a fixed amount of land means higher density. Likewise, the pressure to deal with “affordable housing” means that builders will request and receive higher building heights in exchange for including more low and medium income housing in their new developments.”
I don’t think high rises always correspond to affordable housing. In South Florida, the high rises are set up along a corridor that’s 70 miles long and 1 block wide, and are among the more expensive places to live. Then the older neighborhoods between the Intracoastal and I-95 tend to be single family homes but poorer, and the newer developments west of I-95 become more expensive with larger houses. NMB is largely located in that middle category.
“GH > screaming gevalt about the internet
I felt very uneasy listening such a speech at early COVID that ascribed COVID to too much internet.”
Something I find interesting: I live in a frum community, I interact with frum Jews, I daven in shul, etc. And I come to this site and read what some people say about the frum community, and it just don’t match up. Nobody I know is careening from asifa to asifa looking for the next thing to scream gevalt about, or claiming nevius about Covid in a shiur. I rarely even hear about these things except from the people who are decrying them. What’s up with that? Do people go hunting for these kind of things to have their own things to scream gevalt about? Why?
Ephraim Becker,
“I’m watching a replay of a conservative live stream of kabbalat shabbat and they sing every tefilah.”
I grew up going to a conservative synagogue, and can tell you that they most definitely do not sing every tefilla. Yes their Friday night services are mostly singing, but of the first six tehillim that are said during kabbalas Shabbos, they take maybe two or three pesukum from them and make repetitive songs out of them, and skip everything else. When I was young I didn’t even understand why there was so much stuff in the prayer book between the songs that made it difficult to find the right pages. Lecha Dodi they may do every other stanza, or the first two and the last. As for Shabbos maariv, the more “traditional” conservative services will not be much different from the Orthodox in terms of what’s sung, while the less traditional will just do to maariv what they did to kabbalas Shabbos. Conservative and reform services are more akin to a musical performance and a sermon preaching the liberal issue du jour than to davening to Hashem, and they think the solution to getting better engagement from the congregants is to add a more gevaldig “bim bam shabbat shalom” song and “mi kamocha” with pizazz to their service. Also, unfortunately, the conservative services are not planned out with the thought that the congregants are going home to eat a Shabbos seuda. Growing up, we ate before going, and I went to bed right after.
“This sounds way better for people with ADHD to say every word of davening and not skip words like I do. Why can’t orthodox cater to people with ADHD?”
By weekday davening at my shul, shacharis lasts about 40 minutes with no leining, and around 50-55 minutes when there is leining. Mincha and maariv are each around 20 minutes. That’s around an hour and a half for davening per day, and that’s without singing. Add singing and the davening would be considerably longer, and would be very difficult for people to do while needing to get to work or bring their kids to school, or help with supper and bedtime. Shabbos morning davenings are longer and incorporate more singing, but it would be a considerable tircha to let the services go past midday when people are hungry, and it’s even possibly halachically problematic. By Friday night there are “ruach/Carlebach” kabbalos Shabbos minyans around that sing a lot more, but many people don’t want to delay their seuda and can’t make an early Shabbos due to work. Perhaps you can start a minyan with more singing, especially for Friday nights. Weekdays would be more challenging.
Look up “Fundamentals of Talmud” by Rav Ayson Englander.
Avi K,
“1. More Torah learning is conducted in English and Hebrew.”
So? Being third doesn’t make something moribund.
“There is probably even more in French than in Yiddish.”
I think you may be unfamiliar with the Chasidic and Chareidi world. Spend some time in Brooklyn or certain parts of E”Y and you will hear a lot of Yiddish.
“2. Actually, it’s a German word, Knödel. It found its way into both English and Hebrew.”
At this point I can’t tell if this is all one big joke to you and you’re messing with me, or if you are blinded by sinas chinam to the point of cognitive dissonance. In a post earlier in this thread you used your favorite insult: calling Yiddish pidgin German. Then here you seemingly forget that. Of course Yiddish has a lot of German cognates. קניידלעך is Yiddish, and you said a Yiddish word. And it hasn’t really found its way into English. Most Americans call them matzo balls.
And if you say how is it sinas chinam – after all you’re just down on a language – but it is indeed just a language, and since you seem to like both German and Hebrew, it’s not the sounds of the language that bother you, it’s the speakers. Hundreds of thousands of your fellow Jews speak Yiddish, and may need to be reminded occasionally with a smile that other Jews may not. Maybe even remind them in Yiddish. You lose nothing, and increase achdus that way.
Avi K,
“Avram, why speak a useless, moribund language?”
It’s not moribund – it’s still spoken by many Jews. And it’s not useless – a lot of Torah learning still occurs in Yiddish or using Yiddish phrases, proved above by your complaints.
“which is an important world language.”
Yiddish is an important Jewish language.
“As for kneidlach, I only eat them on Pesach.”
Look who just used a Yiddish word!
IYK,
“What if a dry towel was placed on top of the ice, followed by the bags containing the tefillin? Would that protect from condensation?”
I’d worry about the towel getting soaked. Every time I’ve used ice in a cooler, even when the ice is stored in ziplock bags, some water finds its way out and the bottom of the cooler has standing water.
Avi K,
“Avram, we are talking about language. Yiddish, along with Germanic names, was used to declare Sepharadim not really Jewish.”
So I addressed this point in my first response to you, and you said your issue was about maggidei shiur using Yiddish when their students didn’t understand. So I responded to that, and now you move the goalposts back to my first assumption. So I will again say that two wrongs don’t make a right.
Regarding your family, my Litvak grandmother married my German grandfather, and that apparently was a pretty big to-do, and they were both Yiddish speaking Ashkenazim. Just because one Jew or even one family behaved badly doesn’t mean all Yiddish speakers are collectively responsible and must therefore stop speaking Yiddish and eating kneidlach accept the superiority of falafel and hummus and replacing all savs with tavs.
Avi K,
“However, I do resent maggidei shiurim using Yiddish terms when they know full well that not everyone in the shiur understands.”
So bring it up with the maggid shiur. The maggid shiur is not being malicious or pretentious, he is just giving over the shiur in a manner that he is comfortable with. It’s not just Yiddish speakers who do that. I’ve attended shiurim given by Israelis who throw in a lot of Ivrit and lose some of their audience because they forget to translate. I am a BT, and when I first started going to shiurim there were some that I could barely understand because of the “Yeshivish” English. Within a year, however, I was able to understand them. Picking up a different language is not harmful.
“I also think that it is a ghetto mentality to hang on to Yiddish.”
It doesn’t really matter what you think; it matter what the Yiddish speakers think, Why don’t you ask them if they have a ghetto mentality?
“Moreover, Hebrew is our ancestral language and unites us.”
I think you mean modern Hebrew (Ivrit), and with the CR as exhibit A, that is not so. What unites us is the Torah and serving Hashem as Jews.
Yankelle,
“As for the thermos/cooler idea, unless you have something in there maintaining the interior cool, wouldn’t the heat only amplify inside? I think that it might make it worse, not better.”
Even without something cold inside, the insulation of the cooler will help slow the rate of heating inside the cooler as the car heats up, and could make a big difference. Adding a cold pack would keep things even colder, but moisture from condensation may become a problem. If the tefillin are in a plastic case or bag though, they should be protected from moisture, but I would not use ice in a cooler with tefillin.
“Maybe the solution is to keep the entire car cooler by covering the windshield with one of those metallic sheets?”
That will definitely help, but unless the car is in a garage, some sunlight will come in through the windows and the inside of the car will still become much hotter than the outside air.
Avi K,
“Do Sepharadim and Eidot haMizrach count as “Yidden”.”
Yidden is just Yiddish for Jews, so why wouldn’t they count?
“Enough with the creole German. Say it. Am Yisrael.”
Would you have said, “enough with the English!” had he written Jews? Or would you have called Ladino creole Spanish? No. We’ve had this discussion before. You feel oppressed by Ashkenazim and Yiddish, and have been wronged. But two wrongs do not make a right. Yiddish is a big part of the culture of many of your fellow Jews, and the push in Israel to squash that culture in favor of Ivrit and falafel has a strong association with efforts to secularize Jews as well. So is it surprising that there may be some resistance among frum Ashkenazim?
A hard cooler might work, and during the summer, try to park in a garage or a spot in the shade if at all possible. Floridians say that the best spots are the ones in the shade, not the ones closest to the destination. It might also be worth running out to the car during a break to check and make sure they’re not getting too hot.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I agree that in normal circumstances, people should be davening in a shul.”
You went a bit further than that and said that if a person has resumed other normal activities, then (perhaps) he should also be davening in shul.
“I also think that current period allows for a range of opinions and it is not worth arguing about it.”
You said this in your last post and I already responded to it. A quick recap: 1. OP brought it up for discussion and debate, so we are obliging, and 2. OP specifically said that for him it wasn’t about Covid, so we’re already outside of your “range of opinions” which pertain to Covid. Had someone posted an OP saying he was still davening outdoors because he was concerned about Covid infection, my and others’ responses may well have been different. I probably would have either chosen not to respond, or would have asked him what criteria needed to be met for him to feel comfortable going back to shul and discussed from there.
“I stopped by an indoor minyan in a huge building, and the only persons, besides me, who had a mask was a medical doctor and an apparently unvaxed youngster, as the gabbai gave him a mask. Rabbis and lawyers did not have one… the rules were to have a mask up to several weeks ago …”
What is the relevance of this story to our discussion?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“which I read that he prefers outside without masks to davening inside with masks.”
Remember his minyan had been going for over a year as of this past April. So for some time they were doing it because of Covid. The pshat of the OP though was that he does not want to stop even now that it is not because of Covid (for him). And in retort to DY’s response he brought in Yitzchak and the Beis Hamikdash as GH and you later did, followed by a strawman rendition of DY’s position (where does the S”A say we can’t daven outside? – that’s not what DY said or meant, and I bet he, like the majority of posters here, has probably davened outside at some point in the last 18 months). He also stated that some people are still scared of Covid and he’s there for them. Fine. Why not lead with that, because that’s the strongest case? All the other stuff he’s brought up was worded to start a discussion and debate. That’s what people do on the CR.
“But later he says that he somehow likes his new minyan.”
Liking something isn’t necessarily correlated with being the right thing to do. What if he likes bacon?
“We usually don’t fight about other issues where there is a range of opinions”
Uhhh are we posting on the same CR? That’s bread and butter ’round here. And to start a debate was exactly what the OP intended to do. Do people post on the CR expecting no responses, or just a bunch of “attaboys!”? And possible good came out of the debate. Perhaps the OP wasn’t aware of the halacha that it’s preferable to daven inside. Perhaps some readers did not. Perhaps there was a reader in Monsey who’s still davening alone in his house because he’s scared of Covid and didn’t think there were any outside davenings left, and now he’s in Forshay davening with a minyan. Your chosen username is Always_Ask_Questions. Why are you suddenly shying away from that? Or are you the only one qualified to ask questions and debate things?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“if the question is should temporary minyanim become permanent,”
And if the question is do I want a roast beef sandwich for lunch, I am on the side of yes with possible exceptions for whether ice cream enters the picture later in the day. Your “if the question is” may sound similar, but it is not the question we are dealing with here. We are davka dealing with davening outside. The question of whether and when to break off from an established shul or minyan to form a new shul or minyan is different.
“from my point of view, it is still an issue of COVID.”
The deflection and now the pivot. You would make a good press spokesman. The OP stated that from his point of view, it is NOT about Covid. That is what is prompting others to urge him to ask a shaila. You even agreed with that position via Rabbi Lebowitz: “it is a problem if you are now participating in other comparable activities, but not opening shuls.” But when GadolHadorah came in with sarcasm about the entire issue of davening outside, inexplicably you jumped right aboard that wagon.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Avram, you are somewhat quick to dismiss avot and for hamidbar.”
No, I’m just careful to not misuse them.
“Most of the Torah is about them.”
The Torah is not merely a collection of nice stories with good morals. It is the blueprints of the human species given to us by our Creator, and our purpose is to learn from it how to live our lives.
“For some reason, Hashem gave us Torah, rather than handing us down a shulchan oruch, or Rambam to teymanim!”
Where do you think the Shulchan Aruch, et al. came from?
“It is not a dispute that davening in shul is preferable, but current circumstances added a twist, and outdoor minyanim served their role.”
And if you read the OP, you’ll see that it served (past tense) its role, but now despite there really being no need anymore (“It’s not because I need to social distance, I had the virus and had antibodies”), in the nice April air they “[did] not want to stop”. So you bringing Covid safety into this coversation is irrelevant. It’s no longer about Covid safety.
“the question when exactly to end them is transitory and not very important, I think.”
Why do you think you are qualified to determine what is or isn’t very important?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Gadol +1. hashem even asked an elderly man to climba (small) mountain for a long Torah lecture. This week, Moshe was trying to give a dvar Torah in between some stones! There are also Navvim, such as Eliahu, davening outside even in bad weather! And Avraham was meeting Hashem outside the tent. And Rivka fell of the camel seeing Yitzhak davening outside. And Yaakov did not stay at King David.”
Cute. But we also learn that nobody worked to earn a living; they could just walk outside in the morning and find their food for the day lying on the ground wrapped in dew. And nobody saved up for the future. Everything they obtained to eat they consumed before going to bed that night (except Fridays) and they left nothing over for the next day. And instead of doing kiruv on the guy carrying wood they stoned him to death. The bottom line is, the dor hamidbar was in a very special situation – they were in effect removed from the world for those 40 years. We don’t pasken on how to do things now just because they did such and such in the midbar. We also don’t pasken based on stories of the Avos, because they were on a different plane from us. When Yosef asked the cupbearer to put in a good word for him with Paroh, it was reckoned as a lack of emunah and he got two more years in prison for it; but if we were in the same place, it might be incumbent upon us to do that as a part of our hishtaldus! We are a people of halachic tradition, and halacha is not silent on whether it’s better to daven in a shul or outside, or a home, or a gas station. Yes davening in any of those places is permissible, but our goal as Jews when following halacha is to aim for the ideal.
IYK,
“I don’t know if that means the state of Maryland, or that you are an MD.”
I am not a MD or any kind of medical specialist. Even if I were, my words would be no more or less important than anyone else’s here, including yours.
“I have learnt from many different sources, that there are platforms where I can be heard and my situation would drastically change for the better. However, these platforms are not in the Jewish society. It is because I care about my own well being, that if I am continually silenced by the Jewish community I face every day, where else can I turn to have my voice heard, than the anti Semitic community?”
The Jewish people are not numerous in the world, but we’re BH large enough that there are a lot of different communities and a lot of platforms. Do you really think antisemites would care about you or do anything to better your situation? The only goal they’ll help you accomplish is revenge and hurting others, and that is neither a worthy goal nor a goal that will bring you health. If you don’t like this forum, there are other forums, or you could even start your own.
“I don’t plan to look back at this forum for a while, as it has become quite a toxic environment. Yes, I do care about myself and love myself more than you can even dream.”
I’m sorry you feel this forum is toxic. And I don’t question your love for yourself. I only wanted to know what specifically you were asking of the readers here.
IYK,
“I understand your stance fully. I even understand why you are creeped out.”
I didn’t really articulate a stance. You’re calling people out to deal with the crisis of housing prices, and I am asking you what you would like us to do.
“I however, was dealt a bigger blow than just threats. My life was destroyed by those who felt I was going to be successful and took steps in action to destroy my life. They deemed me a threat to myself and others, when those who knew me told me straight out that their experience with me was that I would never hurt anyone.”
That is a horrible experience to go through, and I am truly sorry that you suffered so much.
“My concern is, that the natural language is mirroring. We are not treating others how we wish to be treated, leading to situations like mine, where I face hunger problems for my whole life and it seems like nobody I’ve met in the Jewish community wants to really solve this issue at the root.”
I think there are many people who do wish to help others and would gladly try to help you. In order to get the right help for you though, people need to know what the root issue is. And it’s not really possible for anyone to know what it is unless you can articulate it.
“I feel shunned and shut out by the very community that raised me, yet they choose to repeat these negative actions.”
There are, unfortunately, rotten apples in the barrel. And just as rotten apples hurt the fruit in contact with it, rotten people can cause great harm to those around them. But B”H the Jewish world is large and diverse. Your community is not the only one that exists. And G-d willing you will find one that better suits you.
“I feel like I waste my time trying to make a difference even here, where people see my posts.”
I am reading your posts, as are many others, including many who are not responding. How do you want to make a difference? What do you want the readers of the CR to do? Take this thread for example – how can we help to deal with the housing and food pricing crises? And also know that people here may disagree with some of the things you are saying. That is not a rejection of you. It’s an opportunity to refine your argument, to learn different perspectives, and maybe change some minds.
“If you want to effect change, we need to be the change. I’m just trying to show where things can go if we continue. It’s very creepy, but so many are still sleeping. It’s time to wake up.”
So explain how to be the change! How do we not continue down a dangerous path?
“Change can happen. I believe that whatever the minimum wage is, must be capable of covering needs. If there is a minimum wage, or a regulated minimum income for normal work hours, then calories and square footage of housing needs to also be regulated.”
So contrary to what the antisemites will tell you if you do reach out to them, Jews don’t control these things. Elected officials do. So are you advocating for us to reach out to our elected officials and ask for a higher minimum wage, and better price controls on housing and food? Are there candidates that you support who would work to accomplish this? Also note that changes like this at a societal level tend to be slow to occur. In the absence of a high minimum wage and lower prices, how can we as members of the Jewish community help those who are struggling as you are?
“I’m going to take a break from posting for a while and hope the positive message of what changes can be made sinks in.”
I think we all want the world to change for the better. What specifically do you think we can do in our own small spheres of influence to attain it?