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Yes, but only as polka dots on a green dress.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I wanted to hear Talmidei Chachamim opinion about the pandemic, as advertised. I was not looking specifically for hizuk on internet issues.”
Was the entire shiur about the Internet? And what was the exact context regarding the Internet and Covid?
“If they would have been slightly creative, they could have.”
Hindsight is 20/20 as they say, and it’s a lot easier to say what should be done than to try and do something.
“There are a lot of online resources available. Schools could have outsourced to the experts, for example.”
Such things cost money, and to outsource would likely mean letting some staff go, and on-the-fly retraining of the remaining staff to work with the online programs. And all the students would need access to computers and the Internet, which is not the case in many communities. Also, nobody knew how long the lockdowns would last; the goalposts kept getting moved on us, and what many thought was a temporary situation dragged on and on.
“one of the schools was, Baruch Hashem, not interested in one of my kids because he, inter alia, attended online school for half a year, which the principal persisted calling “home schooling” despite all the info I gave him.”
Why would a school not accept a child because he was homeschooled for half a year? That makes no sense.
Syag Lchochma,
“not only are those claims heresay, but they actually aren’t happening. I thought the mention of not hearing it first hand in the actual communities was because it isn’t happening there.”
Yes, such as characterizing the “big” internet asifa a number of years ago as “the rabbis banning the Internet”, which it was not. But sometimes it’s not fabricating, but rather a matter of ayin ra, like taking the content of a shiur, or something a rav says, and running it through a negativity filter. Or becoming well versed in all of the machlokes of the bnei Yisroel. We shouldn’t be looking at our tents with Bilaam’s eyes. When I was new to a particular community, a new friend I made said something disparaging about a big rav in the community – that his drashos were fire and brimstone and he didn’t care to hear them. As much as I try to not accept lashon hara, this statement did unfortunately affect my opinion of the rav, until I got a chance to actually listen to a bunch of his drashos and ask him a shaila. Lo and behold, he never brought up gehennom or called us horrible sinners or anything like that. He spoke passionately about how important Torah learning and mitzvos were, and exhorted us to do more, without sugarcoating things. And he answered my shaila with warmth and a twinkle of humor.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I heard this talk myself firsthand online, I am ashamed to say. “
What drew you to tune into that particular talk?
“Many zoom classes were not good.”
Even if all the technical details were pulled off well, spending much of the day on Zoom is not optimal. I work remotely and more than an hour spent in virtual meetings in a work day becomes a tircha. Hence, as you said below, real online schools do not make Zoom classes the ikar. But the brick and mortar schools did not have the ability or resources to convert instantaneously into online schools.
Gadolhadorah,
“I don’t recall seeing any of the rabbonim coming to the Asefas riding a donkey on the NJ turnpike nor do I recall their objecting to using a sound amplification system rather than yelling at the tops of their voices about the evils of the internet etc”
This is the same fallacy that Always_Ask_Questions expressed above. Do you think the objections to the Internet are because it uses electricity, or routers, servers, and Linux? No, it’s the content that’s available via the Internet. If someone published books with some good stories mixed in with highly objectionable material, and rabbis exhorted families to not bring those books into their homes, would you say that rabbis objected to reading?
Gadolhadorah,
“The OP was about some Asifah….”
And the OP is included in my question.
“The last big gathering was not a “gevalt gathering” but that incredible Met Life Stadium daf yomi siyum back on New Years Day 2020 just before the Covid shutdowns.”
Right, but in “CR” parlance, asifa specifically means a gevalt gathering.
“Before that there were several well publicized and reported “internet asifahs”.”
I recall one that was well publicized. And the derision towards the event and the misrepresentation of it by those who did not go nor hold by the rabbeim in attendance seemed to spill far more ink. I’m just wondering why that is.
“P.S. For those who felt “conference calls” were a good substitute for in-person learning or zoom virtual calls, your entitle to your opinion.”
Why on earth would you put Zoom classes into the same category as in-person? Do you think the Zoom classes held by schools were an adequate substitute for their in-person classes? I think education was devastated last year.
“A properly filtered computer appears to have worked for many frum families and schools without resulting in tens of thousand of kids going OTD or a big spike in divorces”
Did you conduct a poll? B”H I’ve not heard of an increase in divorces, but struggles with kids’ education and computer use? Absolutely.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“this is was said by a couple of Rabonim on the phone. I also do not hear the same from the Rabbis in the community”
I am not denying that such a thing was said by anyone, but when these controversial topics are brought up on the CR, it’s never, “so I was in shul and my rav said…” or “in a shiur, the RY at my yeshiva said…” I doubt Gadolhadorah’s rabbi is screaming gevalt about the Internet, and I’m guessing your rabbi isn’t blaming Covid on people using the Internet for work. It’s always hearsay, or someone who had to go out of his/her way to find it and share it here. I am just wondering what the drive is to become highly learned in all sorts of machlokes or controversy that doesn’t really have a personal impact.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Is attitude towards internet is really a community “value”.”
Absolutely.
“Internet is a protocol.”
That’s an etymological fallacy. You know well that when people refer to “the Internet” they are talking about the content that’s available via the Internet, not the details of how content is delivered.
“It can lead to dangerous places, sure. You can argue who and when and how should or not using it. but a “value”.”
That’s exactly what’s being argued, and to care about the potential dangers is indeed to have a value, so why the tempest in a teapot?
“So, someone who wanted to learn during pandemic, would have to limit himself to conference calls.”
If he wasn’t willing to open a connection in his home to the Internet, which as you pointed out can lead to dangerous places, then sure.
“What if he wants to look up a sefer that he does not have at home. Should he have a conference call with Ramban?”
How did we get such great gedolim before the Internet, when they surely did not have every sefer in existence at home? How did people who did not use the Internet before Covid solve this problem before Covid? They went to the beis medrash and got the sefer off the shelf. Same thing during Covid.
Gadolhadorah,
“most yidden will not want to permanently relocate to Yenevelt or some small town in West Virginia.”
Based on lots of conversations I’ve had, I actually think that many families do have an interest in moving to communities in a more suburban or country setting, but it’s hard to be a pioneer and not have the Jewish infrastructure in place. As it is said, build it and they will come.
“Higher demand on a fixed amount of land means higher density. Likewise, the pressure to deal with “affordable housing” means that builders will request and receive higher building heights in exchange for including more low and medium income housing in their new developments.”
I don’t think high rises always correspond to affordable housing. In South Florida, the high rises are set up along a corridor that’s 70 miles long and 1 block wide, and are among the more expensive places to live. Then the older neighborhoods between the Intracoastal and I-95 tend to be single family homes but poorer, and the newer developments west of I-95 become more expensive with larger houses. NMB is largely located in that middle category.
“GH > screaming gevalt about the internet
I felt very uneasy listening such a speech at early COVID that ascribed COVID to too much internet.”
Something I find interesting: I live in a frum community, I interact with frum Jews, I daven in shul, etc. And I come to this site and read what some people say about the frum community, and it just don’t match up. Nobody I know is careening from asifa to asifa looking for the next thing to scream gevalt about, or claiming nevius about Covid in a shiur. I rarely even hear about these things except from the people who are decrying them. What’s up with that? Do people go hunting for these kind of things to have their own things to scream gevalt about? Why?
Ephraim Becker,
“I’m watching a replay of a conservative live stream of kabbalat shabbat and they sing every tefilah.”
I grew up going to a conservative synagogue, and can tell you that they most definitely do not sing every tefilla. Yes their Friday night services are mostly singing, but of the first six tehillim that are said during kabbalas Shabbos, they take maybe two or three pesukum from them and make repetitive songs out of them, and skip everything else. When I was young I didn’t even understand why there was so much stuff in the prayer book between the songs that made it difficult to find the right pages. Lecha Dodi they may do every other stanza, or the first two and the last. As for Shabbos maariv, the more “traditional” conservative services will not be much different from the Orthodox in terms of what’s sung, while the less traditional will just do to maariv what they did to kabbalas Shabbos. Conservative and reform services are more akin to a musical performance and a sermon preaching the liberal issue du jour than to davening to Hashem, and they think the solution to getting better engagement from the congregants is to add a more gevaldig “bim bam shabbat shalom” song and “mi kamocha” with pizazz to their service. Also, unfortunately, the conservative services are not planned out with the thought that the congregants are going home to eat a Shabbos seuda. Growing up, we ate before going, and I went to bed right after.
“This sounds way better for people with ADHD to say every word of davening and not skip words like I do. Why can’t orthodox cater to people with ADHD?”
By weekday davening at my shul, shacharis lasts about 40 minutes with no leining, and around 50-55 minutes when there is leining. Mincha and maariv are each around 20 minutes. That’s around an hour and a half for davening per day, and that’s without singing. Add singing and the davening would be considerably longer, and would be very difficult for people to do while needing to get to work or bring their kids to school, or help with supper and bedtime. Shabbos morning davenings are longer and incorporate more singing, but it would be a considerable tircha to let the services go past midday when people are hungry, and it’s even possibly halachically problematic. By Friday night there are “ruach/Carlebach” kabbalos Shabbos minyans around that sing a lot more, but many people don’t want to delay their seuda and can’t make an early Shabbos due to work. Perhaps you can start a minyan with more singing, especially for Friday nights. Weekdays would be more challenging.
Look up “Fundamentals of Talmud” by Rav Ayson Englander.
Avi K,
“1. More Torah learning is conducted in English and Hebrew.”
So? Being third doesn’t make something moribund.
“There is probably even more in French than in Yiddish.”
I think you may be unfamiliar with the Chasidic and Chareidi world. Spend some time in Brooklyn or certain parts of E”Y and you will hear a lot of Yiddish.
“2. Actually, it’s a German word, Knödel. It found its way into both English and Hebrew.”
At this point I can’t tell if this is all one big joke to you and you’re messing with me, or if you are blinded by sinas chinam to the point of cognitive dissonance. In a post earlier in this thread you used your favorite insult: calling Yiddish pidgin German. Then here you seemingly forget that. Of course Yiddish has a lot of German cognates. קניידלעך is Yiddish, and you said a Yiddish word. And it hasn’t really found its way into English. Most Americans call them matzo balls.
And if you say how is it sinas chinam – after all you’re just down on a language – but it is indeed just a language, and since you seem to like both German and Hebrew, it’s not the sounds of the language that bother you, it’s the speakers. Hundreds of thousands of your fellow Jews speak Yiddish, and may need to be reminded occasionally with a smile that other Jews may not. Maybe even remind them in Yiddish. You lose nothing, and increase achdus that way.
Avi K,
“Avram, why speak a useless, moribund language?”
It’s not moribund – it’s still spoken by many Jews. And it’s not useless – a lot of Torah learning still occurs in Yiddish or using Yiddish phrases, proved above by your complaints.
“which is an important world language.”
Yiddish is an important Jewish language.
“As for kneidlach, I only eat them on Pesach.”
Look who just used a Yiddish word!
IYK,
“What if a dry towel was placed on top of the ice, followed by the bags containing the tefillin? Would that protect from condensation?”
I’d worry about the towel getting soaked. Every time I’ve used ice in a cooler, even when the ice is stored in ziplock bags, some water finds its way out and the bottom of the cooler has standing water.
Avi K,
“Avram, we are talking about language. Yiddish, along with Germanic names, was used to declare Sepharadim not really Jewish.”
So I addressed this point in my first response to you, and you said your issue was about maggidei shiur using Yiddish when their students didn’t understand. So I responded to that, and now you move the goalposts back to my first assumption. So I will again say that two wrongs don’t make a right.
Regarding your family, my Litvak grandmother married my German grandfather, and that apparently was a pretty big to-do, and they were both Yiddish speaking Ashkenazim. Just because one Jew or even one family behaved badly doesn’t mean all Yiddish speakers are collectively responsible and must therefore stop speaking Yiddish and eating kneidlach accept the superiority of falafel and hummus and replacing all savs with tavs.
Avi K,
“However, I do resent maggidei shiurim using Yiddish terms when they know full well that not everyone in the shiur understands.”
So bring it up with the maggid shiur. The maggid shiur is not being malicious or pretentious, he is just giving over the shiur in a manner that he is comfortable with. It’s not just Yiddish speakers who do that. I’ve attended shiurim given by Israelis who throw in a lot of Ivrit and lose some of their audience because they forget to translate. I am a BT, and when I first started going to shiurim there were some that I could barely understand because of the “Yeshivish” English. Within a year, however, I was able to understand them. Picking up a different language is not harmful.
“I also think that it is a ghetto mentality to hang on to Yiddish.”
It doesn’t really matter what you think; it matter what the Yiddish speakers think, Why don’t you ask them if they have a ghetto mentality?
“Moreover, Hebrew is our ancestral language and unites us.”
I think you mean modern Hebrew (Ivrit), and with the CR as exhibit A, that is not so. What unites us is the Torah and serving Hashem as Jews.
Yankelle,
“As for the thermos/cooler idea, unless you have something in there maintaining the interior cool, wouldn’t the heat only amplify inside? I think that it might make it worse, not better.”
Even without something cold inside, the insulation of the cooler will help slow the rate of heating inside the cooler as the car heats up, and could make a big difference. Adding a cold pack would keep things even colder, but moisture from condensation may become a problem. If the tefillin are in a plastic case or bag though, they should be protected from moisture, but I would not use ice in a cooler with tefillin.
“Maybe the solution is to keep the entire car cooler by covering the windshield with one of those metallic sheets?”
That will definitely help, but unless the car is in a garage, some sunlight will come in through the windows and the inside of the car will still become much hotter than the outside air.
Avi K,
“Do Sepharadim and Eidot haMizrach count as “Yidden”.”
Yidden is just Yiddish for Jews, so why wouldn’t they count?
“Enough with the creole German. Say it. Am Yisrael.”
Would you have said, “enough with the English!” had he written Jews? Or would you have called Ladino creole Spanish? No. We’ve had this discussion before. You feel oppressed by Ashkenazim and Yiddish, and have been wronged. But two wrongs do not make a right. Yiddish is a big part of the culture of many of your fellow Jews, and the push in Israel to squash that culture in favor of Ivrit and falafel has a strong association with efforts to secularize Jews as well. So is it surprising that there may be some resistance among frum Ashkenazim?
A hard cooler might work, and during the summer, try to park in a garage or a spot in the shade if at all possible. Floridians say that the best spots are the ones in the shade, not the ones closest to the destination. It might also be worth running out to the car during a break to check and make sure they’re not getting too hot.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I agree that in normal circumstances, people should be davening in a shul.”
You went a bit further than that and said that if a person has resumed other normal activities, then (perhaps) he should also be davening in shul.
“I also think that current period allows for a range of opinions and it is not worth arguing about it.”
You said this in your last post and I already responded to it. A quick recap: 1. OP brought it up for discussion and debate, so we are obliging, and 2. OP specifically said that for him it wasn’t about Covid, so we’re already outside of your “range of opinions” which pertain to Covid. Had someone posted an OP saying he was still davening outdoors because he was concerned about Covid infection, my and others’ responses may well have been different. I probably would have either chosen not to respond, or would have asked him what criteria needed to be met for him to feel comfortable going back to shul and discussed from there.
“I stopped by an indoor minyan in a huge building, and the only persons, besides me, who had a mask was a medical doctor and an apparently unvaxed youngster, as the gabbai gave him a mask. Rabbis and lawyers did not have one… the rules were to have a mask up to several weeks ago …”
What is the relevance of this story to our discussion?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“which I read that he prefers outside without masks to davening inside with masks.”
Remember his minyan had been going for over a year as of this past April. So for some time they were doing it because of Covid. The pshat of the OP though was that he does not want to stop even now that it is not because of Covid (for him). And in retort to DY’s response he brought in Yitzchak and the Beis Hamikdash as GH and you later did, followed by a strawman rendition of DY’s position (where does the S”A say we can’t daven outside? – that’s not what DY said or meant, and I bet he, like the majority of posters here, has probably davened outside at some point in the last 18 months). He also stated that some people are still scared of Covid and he’s there for them. Fine. Why not lead with that, because that’s the strongest case? All the other stuff he’s brought up was worded to start a discussion and debate. That’s what people do on the CR.
“But later he says that he somehow likes his new minyan.”
Liking something isn’t necessarily correlated with being the right thing to do. What if he likes bacon?
“We usually don’t fight about other issues where there is a range of opinions”
Uhhh are we posting on the same CR? That’s bread and butter ’round here. And to start a debate was exactly what the OP intended to do. Do people post on the CR expecting no responses, or just a bunch of “attaboys!”? And possible good came out of the debate. Perhaps the OP wasn’t aware of the halacha that it’s preferable to daven inside. Perhaps some readers did not. Perhaps there was a reader in Monsey who’s still davening alone in his house because he’s scared of Covid and didn’t think there were any outside davenings left, and now he’s in Forshay davening with a minyan. Your chosen username is Always_Ask_Questions. Why are you suddenly shying away from that? Or are you the only one qualified to ask questions and debate things?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“if the question is should temporary minyanim become permanent,”
And if the question is do I want a roast beef sandwich for lunch, I am on the side of yes with possible exceptions for whether ice cream enters the picture later in the day. Your “if the question is” may sound similar, but it is not the question we are dealing with here. We are davka dealing with davening outside. The question of whether and when to break off from an established shul or minyan to form a new shul or minyan is different.
“from my point of view, it is still an issue of COVID.”
The deflection and now the pivot. You would make a good press spokesman. The OP stated that from his point of view, it is NOT about Covid. That is what is prompting others to urge him to ask a shaila. You even agreed with that position via Rabbi Lebowitz: “it is a problem if you are now participating in other comparable activities, but not opening shuls.” But when GadolHadorah came in with sarcasm about the entire issue of davening outside, inexplicably you jumped right aboard that wagon.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Avram, you are somewhat quick to dismiss avot and for hamidbar.”
No, I’m just careful to not misuse them.
“Most of the Torah is about them.”
The Torah is not merely a collection of nice stories with good morals. It is the blueprints of the human species given to us by our Creator, and our purpose is to learn from it how to live our lives.
“For some reason, Hashem gave us Torah, rather than handing us down a shulchan oruch, or Rambam to teymanim!”
Where do you think the Shulchan Aruch, et al. came from?
“It is not a dispute that davening in shul is preferable, but current circumstances added a twist, and outdoor minyanim served their role.”
And if you read the OP, you’ll see that it served (past tense) its role, but now despite there really being no need anymore (“It’s not because I need to social distance, I had the virus and had antibodies”), in the nice April air they “[did] not want to stop”. So you bringing Covid safety into this coversation is irrelevant. It’s no longer about Covid safety.
“the question when exactly to end them is transitory and not very important, I think.”
Why do you think you are qualified to determine what is or isn’t very important?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Gadol +1. hashem even asked an elderly man to climba (small) mountain for a long Torah lecture. This week, Moshe was trying to give a dvar Torah in between some stones! There are also Navvim, such as Eliahu, davening outside even in bad weather! And Avraham was meeting Hashem outside the tent. And Rivka fell of the camel seeing Yitzhak davening outside. And Yaakov did not stay at King David.”
Cute. But we also learn that nobody worked to earn a living; they could just walk outside in the morning and find their food for the day lying on the ground wrapped in dew. And nobody saved up for the future. Everything they obtained to eat they consumed before going to bed that night (except Fridays) and they left nothing over for the next day. And instead of doing kiruv on the guy carrying wood they stoned him to death. The bottom line is, the dor hamidbar was in a very special situation – they were in effect removed from the world for those 40 years. We don’t pasken on how to do things now just because they did such and such in the midbar. We also don’t pasken based on stories of the Avos, because they were on a different plane from us. When Yosef asked the cupbearer to put in a good word for him with Paroh, it was reckoned as a lack of emunah and he got two more years in prison for it; but if we were in the same place, it might be incumbent upon us to do that as a part of our hishtaldus! We are a people of halachic tradition, and halacha is not silent on whether it’s better to daven in a shul or outside, or a home, or a gas station. Yes davening in any of those places is permissible, but our goal as Jews when following halacha is to aim for the ideal.
IYK,
“I don’t know if that means the state of Maryland, or that you are an MD.”
I am not a MD or any kind of medical specialist. Even if I were, my words would be no more or less important than anyone else’s here, including yours.
“I have learnt from many different sources, that there are platforms where I can be heard and my situation would drastically change for the better. However, these platforms are not in the Jewish society. It is because I care about my own well being, that if I am continually silenced by the Jewish community I face every day, where else can I turn to have my voice heard, than the anti Semitic community?”
The Jewish people are not numerous in the world, but we’re BH large enough that there are a lot of different communities and a lot of platforms. Do you really think antisemites would care about you or do anything to better your situation? The only goal they’ll help you accomplish is revenge and hurting others, and that is neither a worthy goal nor a goal that will bring you health. If you don’t like this forum, there are other forums, or you could even start your own.
“I don’t plan to look back at this forum for a while, as it has become quite a toxic environment. Yes, I do care about myself and love myself more than you can even dream.”
I’m sorry you feel this forum is toxic. And I don’t question your love for yourself. I only wanted to know what specifically you were asking of the readers here.
IYK,
“I understand your stance fully. I even understand why you are creeped out.”
I didn’t really articulate a stance. You’re calling people out to deal with the crisis of housing prices, and I am asking you what you would like us to do.
“I however, was dealt a bigger blow than just threats. My life was destroyed by those who felt I was going to be successful and took steps in action to destroy my life. They deemed me a threat to myself and others, when those who knew me told me straight out that their experience with me was that I would never hurt anyone.”
That is a horrible experience to go through, and I am truly sorry that you suffered so much.
“My concern is, that the natural language is mirroring. We are not treating others how we wish to be treated, leading to situations like mine, where I face hunger problems for my whole life and it seems like nobody I’ve met in the Jewish community wants to really solve this issue at the root.”
I think there are many people who do wish to help others and would gladly try to help you. In order to get the right help for you though, people need to know what the root issue is. And it’s not really possible for anyone to know what it is unless you can articulate it.
“I feel shunned and shut out by the very community that raised me, yet they choose to repeat these negative actions.”
There are, unfortunately, rotten apples in the barrel. And just as rotten apples hurt the fruit in contact with it, rotten people can cause great harm to those around them. But B”H the Jewish world is large and diverse. Your community is not the only one that exists. And G-d willing you will find one that better suits you.
“I feel like I waste my time trying to make a difference even here, where people see my posts.”
I am reading your posts, as are many others, including many who are not responding. How do you want to make a difference? What do you want the readers of the CR to do? Take this thread for example – how can we help to deal with the housing and food pricing crises? And also know that people here may disagree with some of the things you are saying. That is not a rejection of you. It’s an opportunity to refine your argument, to learn different perspectives, and maybe change some minds.
“If you want to effect change, we need to be the change. I’m just trying to show where things can go if we continue. It’s very creepy, but so many are still sleeping. It’s time to wake up.”
So explain how to be the change! How do we not continue down a dangerous path?
“Change can happen. I believe that whatever the minimum wage is, must be capable of covering needs. If there is a minimum wage, or a regulated minimum income for normal work hours, then calories and square footage of housing needs to also be regulated.”
So contrary to what the antisemites will tell you if you do reach out to them, Jews don’t control these things. Elected officials do. So are you advocating for us to reach out to our elected officials and ask for a higher minimum wage, and better price controls on housing and food? Are there candidates that you support who would work to accomplish this? Also note that changes like this at a societal level tend to be slow to occur. In the absence of a high minimum wage and lower prices, how can we as members of the Jewish community help those who are struggling as you are?
“I’m going to take a break from posting for a while and hope the positive message of what changes can be made sinks in.”
I think we all want the world to change for the better. What specifically do you think we can do in our own small spheres of influence to attain it?
IYK,
“I don’t see why you think greed is okay and won’t backfire. I don’t see why legalized slavery is okay in your eyes either.”
I don’t think Always_Ask_Questions ever said anything like that.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“We all have millions of slaves, literal who pack the food for us, and golems that keep lights and heat on. when you do work, you have computers, internet, Amazon Marketplace all designed to make you ore efficient.”
I agree with some of what you are saying, but the interesting thing is, every time a new technology is developed to improve efficiency – hey! this task used to take an hour, but now with this new technology the task can be done in a minute! We think that our lives will be bettered by it – now we can do our task in one minute and have 59 minutes to learn Torah, but in reality, the goalposts get moved, and now the boss wants 60 tasks done in an hour instead of one. I maintain some legacy software developed in the 1980s and 1990s that represent a career’s worth of work and used to take hours to run. Now it runs in a couple of seconds, and my own building legacy of software is much more extensive. And the technology that is supposed to help us is constantly screaming at us to connect and feed it our personal information to get sold to advertisers. So our productivity and ability to connect is through the roof, but it also has created a generation of very mentally stressed out people.
IYK,
“If it is acceptable practice to pay anyone on the lower class of pay check less than required to pay for food or housing, then these need to be regulated to cut out the greedy guys. We all know Jews are very involved in real estate. Don’t think for a moment that if society collapses due to greed in this area, that we will not see gas chambers again.”
If you want to help effect real change, then you need to articulate some better ideas than to just “cut out” the mysterious “greedy guys.” Because I’m right with you that housing prices are way too high for maintaining a healthy functioning society, and I partly agree about food, though it’s a more complex and I think less severe problem in this country where I see some practical things that can be done. But I have no idea what I can do to help lower housing prices, and frankly the language you are using to describe the problem, coupled with your threats to harm the Jewish community via antisemites in another thread have me creeped out.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Rav Gans did not lecture the father, he addressed the child directly in a very friendly manner and lead him to make a commitment to interrupt soccer and daven for a couple of minutes.”
“so I presume the Rav knew that the father will get the message and he indeed did. He and I discussed it without the kid.”
Ok, so it seems to be exactly what I speculated. The rav wanted to ensure that the kid davened mincha. The big “lesson” to the father is his interpretation of the psak and your presumption after speaking with him about it. May I ask how the shaila was worded?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“At the same time, next sentence mentions “halakhic thinking”.
And again, “halachic thinking” distorted and not distorted takes place right here in the CR, but has little bearing on actual piskei halacha people get from their rebbeim. I think we’ve reached the wall on this one.
“So that you get a taste of the tension, here is a quote from a notorious letter in 1984”
I could really have done without this taste of machlokes. Do you really think that letter represents anything more than the 1980s version of the CR, but without the benefit of moderation to hopefully keep the most unwise things from being published? That was not written by any rav, nor anyone brave enough to sign an actual name to it.
CatholicVisitor,
“I’m familiar with the early Jewish writings (the Torah?)”
The Torah isn’t Jewish writings, it’s G-d writing and knowledge that were given to the Jews to do and learn.
One thing to add to your conversation with ujm – the conversation to this point has focused on the role of women, but don’t overlook the role of men in the cultural component of decreasing fertility rates. My own experience is a limited sample of course, but I’ve generally observed that it is more common for a wife to want more children and the husband to not than vice versa. And I think that among the secular, men have a harder time with commitment than women.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“there was no negativity. My friend & teacher was definitely right to drag us an hour away to ask this shailah.”
No negativity. Next sentence “drag us an hour away”? Um… yeah.
“He just did not expect that the lesson will be directed to him. I was there and we talked about it, not something that I observed on the street, so I am pretty much sure of what happened,”
I have a hard time believing that a Rosh Yeshiva would “give a lesson” to a father and teacher in front of his son and a talmid. Every rav I’ve interacted with is very careful regarding the father’s honor in front of the children. Maybe your friend made this interpretation independently and confided it to you, but from the answer the RY gave, the issue that he was answering seemed to be the kid davening on the field vs not davening at all. In other words, the RY interpreted the root of the shaila as the father wanting the kid to daven mincha, and thus suggested davening on the field as the kid in his present state would likely balk at leaving his friends to go to shul. That does not mean that a quick Shabbos mincha on the side of a soccer field is an ideal.
Always_Ask_Questions,
Thanks for posting the full letter. Note he writes “many of our Jews”, not poskim, halachic authorities, etc. I do not think he is talking about legitimate poskim and authorities as you contend. But this was the 1950s, and in that time shuls were being ripped apart by factions within the congregations trying to do away with the mechitza, etc. So the stakes were higher than on the CR. Again the fact that laypeople or even conservative and reform Jews can debate about halacha does not mean that the process used by poskim is tainted.
CatholicVisitor,
I’ve fortunately never experienced outright hostility from others seeing my family’s size per se, but when out and about with my children I frequently get comments like “you have your hands full, har har har!”. I think culturally children once perceived as blessings are now perceived as burdens.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I am glad you are feeling better with the position when stated by R Soloveitchik than by an AAQ.”
I don’t believe your “position” is quite the same as that stated by Rabbi Soloveitchik.
“To clarify – in that letter, he is refusing to make a halakhic decision as he is not told that something practical will come out of it, and he will get into a controversy with other halakhists, not CR.”
Who asked him the shaila? It seems to me that he was refusing to make a broad statement on a mostly hashkafic issue, but if there was a specific and real shaila with actual details he would have answered.And my guess is that he didn’t really fear getting into controversy with other poskim, but being dragged into a culture war waged mostly by laypeople (though certainly citing poskim). As the rav said to me years ago, “what are you trying to do?”
TL;DR, I accidentally created a tempest in a teapot, but I ended up getting more clarity on something AAQ attributed to Rabbi Soloveitchik which initially bothered me quite a bit.
n0mesorah and Always_Ask_Questions,
Rereading the thread after a week, I discovered that I misinterpreted the post that kicked off this side discussion (see: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-entering-the-workforce-and-the-calamitous-declining-fertility-rate-effect#post-1976610). Since there were no quotation marks or other markers, I did not realize that AAQ’s second paragraph was entirely a quote from Rabbi Soloveitchik and not his own words. So I apologize to AAQ for saying he was simultaneously declaring himself to be above the debate while engaging in it anyway, which prompted my tongue-in-cheek apology from the entire Jewish people.
That said, I do take issue with AAQ’s categorizing Rabbi Soloveitchik as directing that quote towards the halachic “process”. It was clearly directed at things like the CR. And I think I am still making a distinction that n0mesorah is not between the halachic “process” (e.g., what we see in the Igros Moshe and other poskim), and the debates about halacha that we see here on the CR and on the street or in other similar places. I wouldn’t even categorize this particular thread as a debate about halacha, much less a part of the halachic process, as if poskim are weighing various issues on a complicated shaila and coming here for guidance.
n0mesorah,
When you say “halachic debate”, do you mean a discussion/debate of halacha on the CR or similar forums, or do you mean discussions with or among poskim, or responsa? Always_Ask_Questions appears to mean the latter, given his “kal v’chomer” response to me. And he wasn’t talking about uncertainties due to a lack of a complete understanding of the circumstances. His interpretation of the quote from Rabbi JB Soloveitchik suggests that he views the entire halachic process of arriving at a psak as tainted by politics, and thus unreliable. Since at least the 1950s. If that were so, how can we rely on things like the Igros Moshe or modern poskim?
Stepping back I don’t even see how halacha comes into play here, because ujm/Joseph’s OP was not halachic in nature, just a general bemoaning of cultural decline and that he thinks women aren’t doing what he wants them to do.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Of course, but people choose what to ask based on what they think is important.”
And people learn what’s important in Yeshivos and through living a Jewish life.
“There is a lot of stuff declared in this group that seem to deserve a shaila –”
Like whether to skip kaddishes normally said during davening?
“taking a lot of free food, taking welfare, not learning profession, not wearing masks, going to mass events. In many many cases, it is not clear whether the person asked a shaila, and sometimes I inquire what was the answer and almost never get a straight answer.”
So here’s the thing – many of those types of shailos are very personal, and the psak very much depends on the circumstances of the one asking. To demand someone say what psak they received may be asking too personal a question. When I was newly frum, I once tried to ask a shaila in a very general, theoretical way, and the rav eventually asked me a bit sharply, “what are you wanting to do?” Because the generality was a waste of time and introduced too much uncertainty into the shaila.
“you can still ask a shaila to convince someone else (say, me).”
Nah, that seems silly to me.
“As a friend of mine dragged his son (and me) to a posek in Mattesdorf with a loaded “question”: when his son is playing soccer and the father is going to mincha – should he continue playing or go with his father? it was supposed to be a great less in kibuf av – until the Rav suggested to the kid to break from the game for several minutes and daven mincha right there.”
I think you have misjudged that situation and ascribe much more negativity to it than there was. Perhaps this is due to unfamiliarity with Orthodox Jewish life. Kibud av v’eim is an extremely important mitzvah, and issues of kibud av most certainly deserve a shaila. And it’s not for the father’s kavod, but for the child’s benefit that it is so important. But I don’t think that was even the thrust of your friend’s shaila. Davening is a crucial part of chinuch, and based on the Rav’s response, the issue was that the child was not davening mincha at all, not the kibud av aspect. For a child who has had the chinuch to daven to stop davening is actually a big deal, and I think the father acted very appropriately by bringing the son to a big Rav for guidance, and working out a compromise.
n0mesorah,
If you really think that way, can you explain why you relate to Orthodox Judaism at all?
“And this thread is full of the silliness that AAQ mentioned.”
So what? Better to skip a silly thread than to insult all of the participants, declare yourself above the fray, and then wade into it anyway.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“2 kal vehomers – so this was the feeling decades before CR and in between poskim ….”
To go from a quote from Rabbi Soloveitchik without context to “this was the feeling” is quite the leap. I don’t buy it. And it has no relevance to your declaration to be above the fray in a conversation that isn’t even one of halacha.
“that said, ew discussed here before – poskim respond to our shailos, so street discussion determine what shows up in halakha and also what does not show up.”
No, not really. What shows up in Leshem Shomayim halachic discussions are the people who care about doing the right thing by Hashem and who come across a situation where they don’t know what the right thing is – and so they ask a shaila. Yes changing cultural or political circumstances may cause new and different shailos to come up, but that just allows more light of the Torah to be revealed. And I don’t believe such has departed from this world, Heaven forbid.
Yserbius123,
“You need to look at population growth rates. And I believe that the population growth rate is growing.”
I believe you are mistaken. The global population is growing, but the rate of growth has been slowing since the 1960s peak, and is projected to continue tapering off through the rest of the century. Thus the population increase has more of a linear trajectory now than an exponential one.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I am not inclined to give any of these factions an opportunity for nonsensical debates.”
On behalf of the Jewish people, I apologize. We’ll try to do better. With that off my chest, I do feel the need to mention that the true “halachic debates” are not taking place here in the CR, nor on the streets, nor even the shul kiddush.
ujm,
“This timeline coincided with the mass entry of women into the workforce.”
I think this is a factor, but there are other reasons as well for the declining fertility rate. There has been a decline in physical fertility as well, partly due to people marrying and trying to start families later, but also potentially due to environmental factors that are slowly becoming more defined.
huju,
“I do not recall any post this long or detailed from ujm. Did he/she have help in preparing it, and was he/she paid, directly or indirectly, to post it?”
You must be fairly new here 😀
Also, just because a poster supports a position you disagree with doesn’t mean he is paid to do so.
n0mesorah,
“A good start would be by looking at the hard facts and cold science, before getting into hard to define cultural issues.”
What’s cold science?
Make sure to roast the egg before Shabbos, or if roasted on Y”T, eat it on Y”T.
Reb Eliezer,
“The Rav can pasken if it is a chiyuv”
Boom. Thank you.