Avram in MD

Ephraim Becker,

“I’m watching a replay of a conservative live stream of kabbalat shabbat and they sing every tefilah.”

I grew up going to a conservative synagogue, and can tell you that they most definitely do not sing every tefilla. Yes their Friday night services are mostly singing, but of the first six tehillim that are said during kabbalas Shabbos, they take maybe two or three pesukum from them and make repetitive songs out of them, and skip everything else. When I was young I didn’t even understand why there was so much stuff in the prayer book between the songs that made it difficult to find the right pages. Lecha Dodi they may do every other stanza, or the first two and the last. As for Shabbos maariv, the more “traditional” conservative services will not be much different from the Orthodox in terms of what’s sung, while the less traditional will just do to maariv what they did to kabbalas Shabbos. Conservative and reform services are more akin to a musical performance and a sermon preaching the liberal issue du jour than to davening to Hashem, and they think the solution to getting better engagement from the congregants is to add a more gevaldig “bim bam shabbat shalom” song and “mi kamocha” with pizazz to their service. Also, unfortunately, the conservative services are not planned out with the thought that the congregants are going home to eat a Shabbos seuda. Growing up, we ate before going, and I went to bed right after.

“This sounds way better for people with ADHD to say every word of davening and not skip words like I do. Why can’t orthodox cater to people with ADHD?”

By weekday davening at my shul, shacharis lasts about 40 minutes with no leining, and around 50-55 minutes when there is leining. Mincha and maariv are each around 20 minutes. That’s around an hour and a half for davening per day, and that’s without singing. Add singing and the davening would be considerably longer, and would be very difficult for people to do while needing to get to work or bring their kids to school, or help with supper and bedtime. Shabbos morning davenings are longer and incorporate more singing, but it would be a considerable tircha to let the services go past midday when people are hungry, and it’s even possibly halachically problematic. By Friday night there are “ruach/Carlebach” kabbalos Shabbos minyans around that sing a lot more, but many people don’t want to delay their seuda and can’t make an early Shabbos due to work. Perhaps you can start a minyan with more singing, especially for Friday nights. Weekdays would be more challenging.

Avi K,

“1. More Torah learning is conducted in English and Hebrew.”

So? Being third doesn’t make something moribund.

“There is probably even more in French than in Yiddish.”

I think you may be unfamiliar with the Chasidic and Chareidi world. Spend some time in Brooklyn or certain parts of E”Y and you will hear a lot of Yiddish.

“2. Actually, it’s a German word, Knödel. It found its way into both English and Hebrew.”

At this point I can’t tell if this is all one big joke to you and you’re messing with me, or if you are blinded by sinas chinam to the point of cognitive dissonance. In a post earlier in this thread you used your favorite insult: calling Yiddish pidgin German. Then here you seemingly forget that. Of course Yiddish has a lot of German cognates. קניידלעך is Yiddish, and you said a Yiddish word. And it hasn’t really found its way into English. Most Americans call them matzo balls.

And if you say how is it sinas chinam – after all you’re just down on a language – but it is indeed just a language, and since you seem to like both German and Hebrew, it’s not the sounds of the language that bother you, it’s the speakers. Hundreds of thousands of your fellow Jews speak Yiddish, and may need to be reminded occasionally with a smile that other Jews may not. Maybe even remind them in Yiddish. You lose nothing, and increase achdus that way.

IYK,

“What if a dry towel was placed on top of the ice, followed by the bags containing the tefillin? Would that protect from condensation?”

I’d worry about the towel getting soaked. Every time I’ve used ice in a cooler, even when the ice is stored in ziplock bags, some water finds its way out and the bottom of the cooler has standing water.

Avi K,

“However, I do resent maggidei shiurim using Yiddish terms when they know full well that not everyone in the shiur understands.”

So bring it up with the maggid shiur. The maggid shiur is not being malicious or pretentious, he is just giving over the shiur in a manner that he is comfortable with. It’s not just Yiddish speakers who do that. I’ve attended shiurim given by Israelis who throw in a lot of Ivrit and lose some of their audience because they forget to translate. I am a BT, and when I first started going to shiurim there were some that I could barely understand because of the “Yeshivish” English. Within a year, however, I was able to understand them. Picking up a different language is not harmful.

“I also think that it is a ghetto mentality to hang on to Yiddish.”

It doesn’t really matter what you think; it matter what the Yiddish speakers think, Why don’t you ask them if they have a ghetto mentality?

“Moreover, Hebrew is our ancestral language and unites us.”

I think you mean modern Hebrew (Ivrit), and with the CR as exhibit A, that is not so. What unites us is the Torah and serving Hashem as Jews.

Avi K,

“Do Sepharadim and Eidot haMizrach count as “Yidden”.”

Yidden is just Yiddish for Jews, so why wouldn’t they count?

“Enough with the creole German. Say it. Am Yisrael.”

Would you have said, “enough with the English!” had he written Jews? Or would you have called Ladino creole Spanish? No. We’ve had this discussion before. You feel oppressed by Ashkenazim and Yiddish, and have been wronged. But two wrongs do not make a right. Yiddish is a big part of the culture of many of your fellow Jews, and the push in Israel to squash that culture in favor of Ivrit and falafel has a strong association with efforts to secularize Jews as well. So is it surprising that there may be some resistance among frum Ashkenazim?

Always_Ask_Questions,

“I agree that in normal circumstances, people should be davening in a shul.”

You went a bit further than that and said that if a person has resumed other normal activities, then (perhaps) he should also be davening in shul.

“I also think that current period allows for a range of opinions and it is not worth arguing about it.”

You said this in your last post and I already responded to it. A quick recap: 1. OP brought it up for discussion and debate, so we are obliging, and 2. OP specifically said that for him it wasn’t about Covid, so we’re already outside of your “range of opinions” which pertain to Covid. Had someone posted an OP saying he was still davening outdoors because he was concerned about Covid infection, my and others’ responses may well have been different. I probably would have either chosen not to respond, or would have asked him what criteria needed to be met for him to feel comfortable going back to shul and discussed from there.

“I stopped by an indoor minyan in a huge building, and the only persons, besides me, who had a mask was a medical doctor and an apparently unvaxed youngster, as the gabbai gave him a mask. Rabbis and lawyers did not have one… the rules were to have a mask up to several weeks ago …”

What is the relevance of this story to our discussion?

Always_Ask_Questions,

“if the question is should temporary minyanim become permanent,”

And if the question is do I want a roast beef sandwich for lunch, I am on the side of yes with possible exceptions for whether ice cream enters the picture later in the day. Your “if the question is” may sound similar, but it is not the question we are dealing with here. We are davka dealing with davening outside. The question of whether and when to break off from an established shul or minyan to form a new shul or minyan is different.

“from my point of view, it is still an issue of COVID.”

The deflection and now the pivot. You would make a good press spokesman. The OP stated that from his point of view, it is NOT about Covid. That is what is prompting others to urge him to ask a shaila. You even agreed with that position via Rabbi Lebowitz: “it is a problem if you are now participating in other comparable activities, but not opening shuls.” But when GadolHadorah came in with sarcasm about the entire issue of davening outside, inexplicably you jumped right aboard that wagon.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“Gadol +1. hashem even asked an elderly man to climba (small) mountain for a long Torah lecture. This week, Moshe was trying to give a dvar Torah in between some stones! There are also Navvim, such as Eliahu, davening outside even in bad weather! And Avraham was meeting Hashem outside the tent. And Rivka fell of the camel seeing Yitzhak davening outside. And Yaakov did not stay at King David.”

Cute. But we also learn that nobody worked to earn a living; they could just walk outside in the morning and find their food for the day lying on the ground wrapped in dew. And nobody saved up for the future. Everything they obtained to eat they consumed before going to bed that night (except Fridays) and they left nothing over for the next day. And instead of doing kiruv on the guy carrying wood they stoned him to death. The bottom line is, the dor hamidbar was in a very special situation – they were in effect removed from the world for those 40 years. We don’t pasken on how to do things now just because they did such and such in the midbar. We also don’t pasken based on stories of the Avos, because they were on a different plane from us. When Yosef asked the cupbearer to put in a good word for him with Paroh, it was reckoned as a lack of emunah and he got two more years in prison for it; but if we were in the same place, it might be incumbent upon us to do that as a part of our hishtaldus! We are a people of halachic tradition, and halacha is not silent on whether it’s better to daven in a shul or outside, or a home, or a gas station. Yes davening in any of those places is permissible, but our goal as Jews when following halacha is to aim for the ideal.

IYK,

“I understand your stance fully. I even understand why you are creeped out.”

I didn’t really articulate a stance. You’re calling people out to deal with the crisis of housing prices, and I am asking you what you would like us to do.

“I however, was dealt a bigger blow than just threats. My life was destroyed by those who felt I was going to be successful and took steps in action to destroy my life. They deemed me a threat to myself and others, when those who knew me told me straight out that their experience with me was that I would never hurt anyone.”

That is a horrible experience to go through, and I am truly sorry that you suffered so much.

“My concern is, that the natural language is mirroring. We are not treating others how we wish to be treated, leading to situations like mine, where I face hunger problems for my whole life and it seems like nobody I’ve met in the Jewish community wants to really solve this issue at the root.”

I think there are many people who do wish to help others and would gladly try to help you. In order to get the right help for you though, people need to know what the root issue is. And it’s not really possible for anyone to know what it is unless you can articulate it.

“I feel shunned and shut out by the very community that raised me, yet they choose to repeat these negative actions.”

There are, unfortunately, rotten apples in the barrel. And just as rotten apples hurt the fruit in contact with it, rotten people can cause great harm to those around them. But B”H the Jewish world is large and diverse. Your community is not the only one that exists. And G-d willing you will find one that better suits you.

“I feel like I waste my time trying to make a difference even here, where people see my posts.”

I am reading your posts, as are many others, including many who are not responding. How do you want to make a difference? What do you want the readers of the CR to do? Take this thread for example – how can we help to deal with the housing and food pricing crises? And also know that people here may disagree with some of the things you are saying. That is not a rejection of you. It’s an opportunity to refine your argument, to learn different perspectives, and maybe change some minds.

“If you want to effect change, we need to be the change. I’m just trying to show where things can go if we continue. It’s very creepy, but so many are still sleeping. It’s time to wake up.”

So explain how to be the change! How do we not continue down a dangerous path?

“Change can happen. I believe that whatever the minimum wage is, must be capable of covering needs. If there is a minimum wage, or a regulated minimum income for normal work hours, then calories and square footage of housing needs to also be regulated.”

So contrary to what the antisemites will tell you if you do reach out to them, Jews don’t control these things. Elected officials do. So are you advocating for us to reach out to our elected officials and ask for a higher minimum wage, and better price controls on housing and food? Are there candidates that you support who would work to accomplish this? Also note that changes like this at a societal level tend to be slow to occur. In the absence of a high minimum wage and lower prices, how can we as members of the Jewish community help those who are struggling as you are?

“I’m going to take a break from posting for a while and hope the positive message of what changes can be made sinks in.”

I think we all want the world to change for the better. What specifically do you think we can do in our own small spheres of influence to attain it?

Always_Ask_Questions,

“We all have millions of slaves, literal who pack the food for us, and golems that keep lights and heat on. when you do work, you have computers, internet, Amazon Marketplace all designed to make you ore efficient.”

I agree with some of what you are saying, but the interesting thing is, every time a new technology is developed to improve efficiency – hey! this task used to take an hour, but now with this new technology the task can be done in a minute! We think that our lives will be bettered by it – now we can do our task in one minute and have 59 minutes to learn Torah, but in reality, the goalposts get moved, and now the boss wants 60 tasks done in an hour instead of one. I maintain some legacy software developed in the 1980s and 1990s that represent a career’s worth of work and used to take hours to run. Now it runs in a couple of seconds, and my own building legacy of software is much more extensive. And the technology that is supposed to help us is constantly screaming at us to connect and feed it our personal information to get sold to advertisers. So our productivity and ability to connect is through the roof, but it also has created a generation of very mentally stressed out people.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“Rav Gans did not lecture the father, he addressed the child directly in a very friendly manner and lead him to make a commitment to interrupt soccer and daven for a couple of minutes.”

“so I presume the Rav knew that the father will get the message and he indeed did. He and I discussed it without the kid.”

Ok, so it seems to be exactly what I speculated. The rav wanted to ensure that the kid davened mincha. The big “lesson” to the father is his interpretation of the psak and your presumption after speaking with him about it. May I ask how the shaila was worded?

CatholicVisitor,

“I’m familiar with the early Jewish writings (the Torah?)”

The Torah isn’t Jewish writings, it’s G-d writing and knowledge that were given to the Jews to do and learn.

One thing to add to your conversation with ujm – the conversation to this point has focused on the role of women, but don’t overlook the role of men in the cultural component of decreasing fertility rates. My own experience is a limited sample of course, but I’ve generally observed that it is more common for a wife to want more children and the husband to not than vice versa. And I think that among the secular, men have a harder time with commitment than women.

Always_Ask_Questions,

Thanks for posting the full letter. Note he writes “many of our Jews”, not poskim, halachic authorities, etc. I do not think he is talking about legitimate poskim and authorities as you contend. But this was the 1950s, and in that time shuls were being ripped apart by factions within the congregations trying to do away with the mechitza, etc. So the stakes were higher than on the CR. Again the fact that laypeople or even conservative and reform Jews can debate about halacha does not mean that the process used by poskim is tainted.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“I am glad you are feeling better with the position when stated by R Soloveitchik than by an AAQ.”

I don’t believe your “position” is quite the same as that stated by Rabbi Soloveitchik.

“To clarify – in that letter, he is refusing to make a halakhic decision as he is not told that something practical will come out of it, and he will get into a controversy with other halakhists, not CR.”

Who asked him the shaila? It seems to me that he was refusing to make a broad statement on a mostly hashkafic issue, but if there was a specific and real shaila with actual details he would have answered.And my guess is that he didn’t really fear getting into controversy with other poskim, but being dragged into a culture war waged mostly by laypeople (though certainly citing poskim). As the rav said to me years ago, “what are you trying to do?”

n0mesorah and Always_Ask_Questions,

Rereading the thread after a week, I discovered that I misinterpreted the post that kicked off this side discussion (see: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/women-entering-the-workforce-and-the-calamitous-declining-fertility-rate-effect#post-1976610). Since there were no quotation marks or other markers, I did not realize that AAQ’s second paragraph was entirely a quote from Rabbi Soloveitchik and not his own words. So I apologize to AAQ for saying he was simultaneously declaring himself to be above the debate while engaging in it anyway, which prompted my tongue-in-cheek apology from the entire Jewish people.

That said, I do take issue with AAQ’s categorizing Rabbi Soloveitchik as directing that quote towards the halachic “process”. It was clearly directed at things like the CR. And I think I am still making a distinction that n0mesorah is not between the halachic “process” (e.g., what we see in the Igros Moshe and other poskim), and the debates about halacha that we see here on the CR and on the street or in other similar places. I wouldn’t even categorize this particular thread as a debate about halacha, much less a part of the halachic process, as if poskim are weighing various issues on a complicated shaila and coming here for guidance.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“Of course, but people choose what to ask based on what they think is important.”

And people learn what’s important in Yeshivos and through living a Jewish life.

“There is a lot of stuff declared in this group that seem to deserve a shaila –”

Like whether to skip kaddishes normally said during davening?

“taking a lot of free food, taking welfare, not learning profession, not wearing masks, going to mass events. In many many cases, it is not clear whether the person asked a shaila, and sometimes I inquire what was the answer and almost never get a straight answer.”

So here’s the thing – many of those types of shailos are very personal, and the psak very much depends on the circumstances of the one asking. To demand someone say what psak they received may be asking too personal a question. When I was newly frum, I once tried to ask a shaila in a very general, theoretical way, and the rav eventually asked me a bit sharply, “what are you wanting to do?” Because the generality was a waste of time and introduced too much uncertainty into the shaila.

“you can still ask a shaila to convince someone else (say, me).”

Nah, that seems silly to me.

“As a friend of mine dragged his son (and me) to a posek in Mattesdorf with a loaded “question”: when his son is playing soccer and the father is going to mincha – should he continue playing or go with his father? it was supposed to be a great less in kibuf av – until the Rav suggested to the kid to break from the game for several minutes and daven mincha right there.”

I think you have misjudged that situation and ascribe much more negativity to it than there was. Perhaps this is due to unfamiliarity with Orthodox Jewish life. Kibud av v’eim is an extremely important mitzvah, and issues of kibud av most certainly deserve a shaila. And it’s not for the father’s kavod, but for the child’s benefit that it is so important. But I don’t think that was even the thrust of your friend’s shaila. Davening is a crucial part of chinuch, and based on the Rav’s response, the issue was that the child was not davening mincha at all, not the kibud av aspect. For a child who has had the chinuch to daven to stop davening is actually a big deal, and I think the father acted very appropriately by bringing the son to a big Rav for guidance, and working out a compromise.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“2 kal vehomers – so this was the feeling decades before CR and in between poskim ….”

To go from a quote from Rabbi Soloveitchik without context to “this was the feeling” is quite the leap. I don’t buy it. And it has no relevance to your declaration to be above the fray in a conversation that isn’t even one of halacha.

“that said, ew discussed here before – poskim respond to our shailos, so street discussion determine what shows up in halakha and also what does not show up.”

No, not really. What shows up in Leshem Shomayim halachic discussions are the people who care about doing the right thing by Hashem and who come across a situation where they don’t know what the right thing is – and so they ask a shaila. Yes changing cultural or political circumstances may cause new and different shailos to come up, but that just allows more light of the Torah to be revealed. And I don’t believe such has departed from this world, Heaven forbid.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“I am not inclined to give any of these factions an opportunity for nonsensical debates.”

On behalf of the Jewish people, I apologize. We’ll try to do better. With that off my chest, I do feel the need to mention that the true “halachic debates” are not taking place here in the CR, nor on the streets, nor even the shul kiddush.

huju,

“I do not recall any post this long or detailed from ujm. Did he/she have help in preparing it, and was he/she paid, directly or indirectly, to post it?”

You must be fairly new here 😀

Also, just because a poster supports a position you disagree with doesn’t mean he is paid to do so.

Make sure to roast the egg before Shabbos, or if roasted on Y”T, eat it on Y”T.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“But, no, it is more scholarly to go through all achoronim on an issue that will not affect most of us.

FOCUS on what is important.”

Yiddishkeit is not a zero sum game between mitzvos l’Makom and mitzos l’chaveiro. To think that focusing on one causes loss in the other is the influence of the yetzer hara. One should focus on and be stringent in both, because both are important. Those who have said otherwise have gone on to form things like Christianity and Reform Judaism.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“Note the differences between my examples and yours”

My purpose in bringing that story was to show that we do not pasken from stories. That is not how Judaism works. You are not the rabbis in your stories, and your situation is not like theirs. Also, I believe you are misapplying the message of those stories you’ve brought. The strong reaction from the rabbis regarding someone asking a shaila when there is a safek pikuach nefesh is to teach us to never delay in acting when there is a safek pikuach nefesh. The message is NOT that shailos are to be avoided when possible in all matters.

“This is straight halakhic reasoning.”

No it’s not. It’s not even close.

“how did Bolshevik coup in Petersburg happen in Moscow, and why did some Bolsheviks went after Jews on that day instead of going after the Provisional government as they were supposed to?”

I was recalling the story from memory, so the specific details may not have been correct. Whatever. I’m not the one trying to pasken from a story.

rational,

Always_Ask_Questions I believe has a chiyuv.

Always_Ask_Questions,

“Those who say tircha is not a big deal, maybe forgot the beginning of the thread: this is an outdoor minyan on a cold windy day. Piskei d’Zimra and kadishem before were already skipped. Nobody is sitting, kal vehomer talking. (Those who feel that masks are a threat should feel even stronger).”

Now who’s filling in the blanks with the worst possible assumptions? I did not write tircha b’tzibbur was no big deal, nor did anyone else on this thread that I recall. It is a big deal; however, saying kaddish is also a big deal. And we need to sort out which “wins” halachically in this specific case. And you decided for yourself to not say kaddish, but seemingly based it on gedolim stories that dealt with pikuach nefesh and the fact that you went ahead and did it and the gabbai/rabbi didn’t object. I don’t think that reflects the serious consideration or requisite knowledge that this shaila and those kaddishes deserve. You may discover that your course of action is correct per the rav in this particular case, but it is far better to have that certainty than a bunch of maybes. We don’t get on the freeway thinking, “maybe I buckled my kid in his car seat… I am a strong believer in safety belts, and he’s not piped up that he’s not buckled.”

Reb Eliezer,

So you quoted two specific halachos regarding tircha d’tzibbur. Does this mean we can use tircha d’tzibbur to cut things out of davening without a shaila? What about tachanun? Kaddishes? Chazaras hashas? Pesukei d’zimra?