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Aaq, the medrash says that shlomo hamelech created essentially a car, but hid it when he saw that the reshoim would use it for evil. He also had a sefer of refuos, chazal sau, with the cure for every disease, but it was hidden awa, so that people need to daven.
Chazal knew the interworkings of creation not only on a physical level, but on a deeper one as well.
Your question can be asked of lots of other things chazal were capable of – the arizal says that the smallest of the amoraim was capable of techias hamaysim, so why didn’t the chachamim just revive everyone who died everyday? The answer is they knew not to disrupt Hashem’s plans. The chovos halevavos writes that every invention and discovery in the non jewish world has its time and place. For chazal to interfere with that would have been catastrophic.
And yes, making a statement that chazal were missing in their knowledge of the physical world is heresy according to the vast majority of rishonim and achronim.
Dofi, it’s a Jew’s responsibility to recognize, well, Dofi, when it is apparent. All of the above knowingly diverged from the mesoros they were given and incorporated either what they admitted themselves were non-Jewish ideologies (enlightenment and zionism, in the case of both rabbi yoshe ber and rabbi kook) or created completely new ideas within judaism(kiruvism, all jews are equal, god in a body, doing mitzvos to bring moshiach and/or because the rebbe says so, erasing sleeping in a sukkah, and much more from the Lubavitcher rebbe, and the idea that the frei are better than the frum due to their zeal for the “land” as believed by rabbi kook)
It’s not as if we need to disprove any of the above – it is on the mechadesh to prove new things, and when one admits that torah alone is not the source of their beliefs, those beliefs are automatically discarded.
But in their personal lives, all of the above were known to be scrupulous about halacha, and I have zero interest in condemning or accepting them as yirei shomayim – many people with yiras shomayim make mistakes, especially in a period of time when the yatzer hora for haskalah was unimaginably powerful…honestly, if i had lived in pre-war europe, who says I would have even stayed frum? I have no idea. I can only judge statements, not people.
I realized that my previous post may have had the implication that i believe rabbi yoshe ber, rabbi kook and the Lubavitcher rebbe did not yave yiras shomayim – that was unintentional. I believe they did, but were mistaken in their novel ideologies.
Shtreimels im not familiar with.
Lots of people praised controversial rabbinic figures. If they say something that is against the mesorah, then that’s a mistake; having gedolim praise them means very little in the face of clear errors, such as that of rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik, rabbi kook, the Lubavitcher rebbe, and others who i was instructed not to mention because their deviances aren’t well known and they were yirei shomayim; the rest of their Torah was normal, so there’s no need to expose them. שרא להו מרייהו. I will only mention that one made it into the back of the standard print of shas.
The short jacket was chiefly because of the change of dress in the surrounding goyishe communities. However it should be noted that the litvishe yidden didn’t need as many havdalos from goyim in terms of their dress, because they lived in jewish towns, spoke yiddish, spent the whole day working among yidden and learning, and had almost nothing to do with the goyim.
Rav shach said that a long jacket is a mayloh and that a chasidishe bochur should not stop wearing it in order to find a shidduch. He may stop once he’s married, but doing something which in any way shape or form is a step down is out of the bounds of hishtadlus.
Litvishe gedolim, especially the chazon ish, pushed for distinct dress when the frummer yidden had to content with zionist neighbors in Israel and frei/goyim in America.
But for chasidim it was a shtarker inyan either way, to go out of their way to dress different in as many ways as possible.
M’Ikar hadin, Halacha requires only a small shinui (maharik 88, brought in rema)
Re, payos; there was a gezerah from goyim against having payos. The divrei chaim held it was yehereg velo yaavor, like arkasa d’mesani, while the litvishe mostly held it was not. A notable exception was the netziv, who was moser nefesh to keep his payos long.
That’s where the “behind the ears” look originated. Some litvishe discarded long payos altogether, including some gedolei olam like reb chatzkel, who kept two days of yom kippur in kobe, davened the whole day and learned the whole night, for 2 days…a malaach elokim.
Cs, your extrapolation from an already untenable notion to the idea that gehinnom… makes a person elevated more than gan eden…. there’s a lot to unpack here, and i think mental health tools would be beneficial. Derech eretz kadma letorah; being a healthy person is a prerequisite for understanding Torah. I believe this is beyond my abilities. I do wish you well.
A few things to think about – if you don’t know the plain meaning of kabed es Avicha, the chasidishe level of understanding becomes irrelevant.
So too, i want you to think about the below concepts from a simple, rambam/mesilas yeshorim hashkofa perspective, and perhaps something will break through.
What is gan eden?
What is the purpose of this world?
(The rambam and mesilas yeshorim do not discuss dirah betachtonim because it is an advanced concept, and there is a fundamental idea that supercedes it, since Hashem needs nothing, He clearly had an overarching principle in creating the world – read the first perek of mesilas yeshorim)
What is gehinnom and what is its suffering?
The answers are all very available. I absolutely love chasidishe Torah, but these…. musings, are clear evidence that one needs a strong background in the nigleh of hashkofa before approaching the hallowed halls of chasidishe Torah.
Square, don’t project the world’s ignorance on to chazal and rishonim. Your statements are categorically heretical according to the vast majority of rishonim, who say that chazal were fully versed in all fields of science, informed from fhe Torah. The aruch hashulchan takes it as a given thar such statements are heretical.
Another reason to drop cholov stam; seforim say that cholov yisroel is a segulah for emunah.
The rambam, as it happens, does mention not to eat fatty or sugary foods. Did you ever learn yesodei hatorah before making your sweeping statements?
This isn’t the first, second, or third time I’ve looked in vain for sources in the Lubavitcher rebbes musings from his defenders on this site.
CS, i asked if there were sources that state openly that the worse gehinnom a person has, the more olam haba he will have subsequently, applying the concept of yeridah letzorech aliyah.
The sources you mention say nothing of the sort. Only that Hashem is everywhere, even in gehinnom, which every single person who believes in ain ohd milvado would agree to, and that generally punishments are for the benefit of s person – again, the more stains, the more cleansing, but where in the world do you see that such a person will receive more reward? It’s not only without a source, it makes no sense.
Chazal say that “even” such people are filled with mitzvos like a rimon(i remember it saying this about empty ones, from the pasuk krimon raykasaych, as in amei haaretz – maybe it says it about poshei yisroel too, j don’t recall, but either way, it doesn’t mean they’re on the level of tzadikim!)
As for your example of yeravam, i addressed the issue of teshuva clearly in my response. Teshuva is something done in this world, the world of opportunity. Eisav could have been bigger than yaakov had he done teshuva, and yeravam, whose teshuva would have taught others more than dovids(see maharsha there) would have had more schar HAD HE DONE TESHUVA, but chazal say clearly that he has lost his olam haba because he failed to do so. A bechira decision.
CS, does the Lubavitcher rebbe bring anyone else who says that yeridah letzorech Aliyah applies to how horrible geninnom is vs. how big their olam haba will be? I’m sorry, but that sounds completely untenable. If someone is in a worse part of gehinnom, it is to cleanse him of worse and deeper sins than others. Like a stain on the majority of a shirt vs a tiny blemish. After he’s done getting his sins burned off, he’s at the most, the same level as the one with the small sin.
but besides the lichluch hachait, there’s another factor. The time a tzadik spends doing mitzvos vs the time the rasha spends sinning. In this world, we grow; we cannot grow in olam haba. The more we accomplish here, the more we get there. The time and energy spent sinning could have been used for avodas Hashem; that, the rasha is missing out on and will be missing it forever. It is lost potential. Of course, teshuva makes him better than the tzadik gamur in some ways, but that’s an avodah that is done here, not there.
You’re convincing me more and more of the diversions of the Lubavitcher rebbe from basic jewish hashkofa.
The easy solution to this dilemma, if you’re in an established Torah community with easy access to such products, is to be mekabel on yourself the standard of cholov yisroel. Honey buns and other gas station food, including entemans, are almost always cholov stam.
There’s definitely unhealthy food that’s pareve or cholov yisroel, but the really egregious stuff usually isn’t.
That being said, hashgachos are not there to impose their will – even if it’s morally correct – on others.
If they were, they wouldn’t give a hecsher on cholov stam, because none of the rabbonim directly involved in the OU or chaf k eat cholov stam, and would tell you it’s better not to eat it.
But they certify it because it’s kosher, and because there are places where cholov yisroel is not readily available; in such places, i too would eat cholov stam.
Any food can be eaten once here and there, and it won’t be necessarily unhealthy. Any food can also be eaten to an excess, whereby it is unhealthy. Some foods are only acceptable to eat on special occasions; if someone ate such a cake or other food with similar ingredients only once a month, they wouldn’t gain any weight from it. It’s only from repeated intake, or as part of a generally unhealthy diet. That sort of thing is not even a question of ethics in terms of the hashgacha’s perspective.
So to summarize:
Be mekabel cholov yisroel; it’ll help with temptation.
Hashgochas are not in the business of telling people what to do and what to eat, and even if they were, occasionally eating egregiously unhealthy food will not harm a person.
Given the choice between something of questio
Sechel, the gemara you quoted is accurate, but how does the Lubavitcher rebbe in any way see from there that someone who dies withoit teshuvah can have olam haba?(assuming the aveiros were the type which make a person lose their olam haba, if not, then there’s no chiddush, no?)
Gedol, most reshoim, even those who do lots of aveiros, do eventually have olam haba – the most gehinom lasts for is one year, though every second feels like ages, chazal say. People who lose their olam haba are a distinct category, as delineated in the mishnayos in Sanhedrin. People who are punished forever are also limited to rare cases, “geninnom finishes but they don’t”
Some are punished with worse suffering than gehinnom, which is chiefly intended to cleanse a person of their sins – acher had not been able to enter geninnom, as the OP correctly stated, since his Torah was protecting him. Rebbe Meir davened for that protection to subside somehow and for him to enter geninnom, where he could eventually reach gan eden; this was a very merciful decision, and it was probably a neis, since Hashem changed the way the laws of the ruchnius world run, similar to changing the way the laws of nature work in the physical world.
But there’s still nothing in the sugya that indicates that achers gan eden was special or even anywhere close to the level of tzadikim or baalei teshuvah(who are also tzadikim)
There’s no “shaatnez lobby” – people who check for shatnez are not wealthy. They barely cover the basic expenses with the paltry amount they charge.
I repeat, do you really want to risk all of your tefilos because you couldn’t bring yourself to spend 7 dollars? You probably spent twice that amount on an average breakfast.
Acher was not a simple rasha; he had led a life that warranted immense olam haba for his Torah and avodah prior to going off the derech. Rebbe Meir davened that he should get it.
He had a tikun, but where did you see that his gan eden is better than tzadikim? I don’t think that’s true; chotei niscar? Doesn’t make any sense.
And what that has to do with feeling dveikus in gehinnom
…it’s not a nechoma – don’t do aveiros, do teshuva, and you don’t have to worry about gehinnom. Hashem doesn’t want anyone to have to go there, but it’s worse than anything we can imagine. Such is necessary to cleanse a person of their chataim. I don’t think people have the capacity to experience that kind of suffering and feel Hashem’s presence. It sounds like a fantasy.Gadol, the world is indeed a narrow bridge; people can lose – but also gain – eternity in a moment; chazal say both of those things.
As for OOT communities; who says there are no shaatnez checkers? In established communities I’m sure there are. And if there aren’t, it’s just another reason among many to live only in a makom Torah (and yes most OOT communities are perfectly within the definition of makom Torah, to be clear)
I have no idea who the “authority” is who you received that response to, but it’s the same as buying lettuce, looking for bugs and then eating it when you don’t immediately find any. This is something some modern Orthodox people do, and it’s potentially worse than eating chazir, as every bug carries 5 laavin with it.
As for how common it is, it’s happened to me personally a few times. And i only buy cheap stuff. You never know when they’ll decide to use linen in the collar, or in the lining if it’s scrap material.
Ask the Mikdash melech shaatnez lab in z. Bermans on coney island avenue for dozens of examples of shatnez found in everything from sweaters to scarves; anything that has wool. They have examples on their walls. And if you think they’re nogaya bedavar, take a look at their prices and get to know the people involved; they’re some of the most selfless people I know. They’re genuinely determined to save the tzibur from shaatnez.
Chazal say that one who wears shatnez does not have his tefilos answered. This applies even to unintentional transgressions. Inagine davening your heart out on yom kippur only for it not to matter because you couldn’t be bothered to spend 7 dollars on checking your suit for shaatnez…
It is an absolute obligation to check suits for shaatnez when many such items have it. It’s no different than checking for bugs in lettuce. It’s not “questionable.” You’re not allowed to wear shaatnez and you can’t assume that something doesn’t have it when you know that many do, even a miut, because we don’t go after the rov/majority when it’s efshar levrurei, possible to clarify. What that has to do with money is irrelevant; if you can spend money on a suit, spend 8 dollars to get it checked. Some checkers do it for free if they know a person is strapped for cash. The shaatnez community is one of the most ehrlich segments of klal yisroel, in my many dealings with checkers.
Closest community outside of NY/NJ would be Philadelphia, but based on your description, I’d recommend Baltimore. There’s a lot of torah, lots of non judgemental people, and all the resources. Very warm place.
But don’t use moving as an excuse to drop the keeping of mitzvos. I’m not saying that i think you are, but often when people want to move out of town, they want to be less religious.
If yaakov doe doesn’t respond to you for some reason, feel free to email me at [email protected]
I’ve heard that there were rebbes who wished a “guy yohr” on new uears with the intention of contrasting the way yidden view a new uear and the way goyim do.
I meant to say “if I remember right,” not “you”. Perhaps sechel thought I was telling him that he doesn’t know the gemara… Sorry if it came across that way
Not only may one not wish a person merry kratzmach, as it is mechazel yidei ovrei aveirah, there are clear mishnayos, gemara and shu”a about doing things that make goyim happy before their holidays, so they shouldn’t thank their god. I don’t remember off hand to what degree these apply to christian holidays, but extending a greeting which acknowledges a holiday which is at the very least avodah zara for us – to the point of being yehereg velo yaavor – is very simple.
Were it not for the fact that an anonymous post online is not aidus, I’d very much like to know the identity of the “rav” who did this; it’s disqualifying just as any other aveirah. And the worst part is how it leads other jews to follow his example.
Regardless of how goyim today view the new year, it was founded on the basis of religion. Just as we cannot acknowledge Halloween, we are prohibited from acknowledging new years.
Israel should offer to become the 51st state of the U.S.
They’d have protection, the u.s. would have the biggest stronghold of power in the region, decades ahead of iran, Russia abd china, and we wouldn’t be burdened with enemies who take out the wors “jew” and insert “zionist” to claim moral superiority while advocating for the murder of Jews.
Ujm, before Oct 7, it was almost all from black people and a few muslims here and there, plus the one-off mass shooting from a white supremacist. But now, there have been assaults from various types of young people who are anti israel and lump all of us together; it’s not as disproportionate as before, but the everyday incidents from black people in crown heights and Williamsburg has increased too.
Common, you’re right about black voices in general, but there are some, like Ritchie Torres, who are very pro Jewish(or at least pro Israel)
Conservative Black leaders (Thomas sowell, Clarence Thomas, others) also are not known to be Antisemitic
Sechel, which rishonim/achronim say that chasidei umos haolam don’t have olam haba? There’s a shita in the gemara like that if u remember right, but i never saw anyone pasken like it
Sechel, please reread my post and menachems reply. The tanya doesn’t address the issue of chasidei umos haolam and their shoresh neshoma; the sefer menachem quoted, however, does.
My original point to you was that not every goy should convert, even if they are aware of the lofty spiritual level of a Jew.
Lots of things impact a person’s overall spiritual state. What determines how ‘good’ or ‘bad’ you are is entirely in the realm of bechirah, but the spiritual levels that one attains and/or is born into depend on a lot of other factors – kavanah b’shaaz tashmish, yichus, upbringing, and many others. A kid who is a ben niddah and a mamzer that grows up in a drug home is not born a rasha, and can become a big tzadik by making the right choices, but he is spiritually impaired and has a defect because of his circumstances.
It’s kind of like the difference between a malaach and a person. A malaach is objectively on a highway spiritual plane than a person, but a person is greater because of their ability to reject evil and choose good. So too, a baal yichus is greater in their objective spiritual level, but if they don’t shteig, they are not as good of a person or as important to Hashem as a person born to disadvantageous circumstances who rises above those inhibitions to follow Hashem and His Torah.
The notes on tanya are basically what my rebbe received from the Lubavitcher rebbe in the letter; the first letter you linked to doesn’t seem to address the issue directly (and it was definitely not the letter sent to my rebbe, as he lived in Brooklyn)
Thanks for the mareh mekomos
Sechel, there are some goyim – entire communities – who believe in the Torah, keep the 7 mitzvos, and greatly, supremely value Jewish people because of what the Torah says about us. These people are usually former Christians, and while some convert, many see their place in the world as a chosid m’umos haolam; not every goy has the spiritual capacity to convert, as a finite amount of neshomos were by har sinai. They recognize their place in the world, secondary as it might be, as important.
One of my rebbeim sent a letter to the last Lubavitcher rebbe, asking him about good goyim who keep the 7 mitzvos; if their neshoma is still from klipos tamaeos (שאין להם צד טוב כלל), like the tanya says in perek 1.
He who wrote back to him quoting a sefer in chabad as saying that the neshomos of chasidei umos haolam have the same shoresh as that of yidden, though the neshoma itself is vastly different.
I’m using the source quoted by the Lubavitcher rebbe, not he himself as the source for this idea. I don’t remember what that sefer is called.
The erev rav are numerous indeed. They join klal yisroel when it is convenient for them, and then stab them in the back when things get a little tough or they must adhere to their first allegiance – goyishe values.
There are many erev rav people who wear fedora hats and speak yiddish, too.
ברוך שלא עשני גוי, וברוך שהציל אותנו מאפיקורסות
The Magen aveohom famously paskens not to wear a tallis gadol over one’s outer jacket, because it is too much of a display to goyim and might incite antisemtism. This is also why we light neros chanukah indoors outside eretz yisroel. Theb public lightings and other public displays are against these two halachos, besides from not having any source in the poskim.
Rav shach would consult rav moshe frequently on political issues; it’s not only that the Lubavitcher rebbe was in Brooklyn. Rav Moshe was in Manhattan, which is a few miles further from eretz yisroel.
Those who hold of being involved in the government believe in trying to make it as close to judaism as possible, not a separation of church and state. Even rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik said that a state that will not become religious isn’t worthwhile. The Lubavitcher rebbe presumably would want the state to be run according to halacha too. Whether that makes us “no better than Uganda” is not a logical, Torah based argument.
Ubiq and coffee – that was truly entertaining.
I believe that happened with the toldos, which was a much more cryptic sefer.
Kedoshei elyon burned the moreh nevuchim too; this isn’t very surprising.
And those who burned the moreh under the guidance of their rebbe were rewarded for doing so, just as those who learned it because their rebbe told them to would receive the same schar.
Mayn**
The line about “lekovod the boich” is a kotzker line. The kotzker rebbe heard a chossid say “lekovod shabbos,” before eating, and rhe rebbe said “likevod mayb boich” and ate, to teach a lesson about not fooling one’s self into thinking that they are on madregos that they aren’t holding by.
Other gedolim held “fake it till you make it” to a degree.
There’s no source for public menorah lighting outside of a shul.
Follow, i can be sure that rav shmuel kamenetzky did not say that science should be studied for its own sake; his father and his rebbe, Rav aharon, held that secular studies for their own sake – not to understand chazal, and not for parnosah, is apikorsus.
Square – do they ask people in shomayim why they weren’t engaged in any of those professions? Chazal say what they ask; if they were honest in whatever they did and if they learned enough Torah. When i go to shomayim, i might have a lot to answer for, but why i wasn’t a radiologist won’t be part of it, this i am sure.
Re, rav miller: his talmidim do not discourage being in kollel while on govt programs nowadays. Rav miller was niftar in 2001; it isn’t a shitah issue so much as a practical one. His overarching opinion however, was that most people should work at some point, and that if you’re in kollel, you really need to spend your time wisely.
He also said that college is like a bathroom; sometimes you need to use it.
80% of the jewish nation forsake the Torah, which says we will be utterly destroyed if we leave it
Steinzalts: “hmm… let’s wait and see. Maybe we need to reread pesukim that cheder children know and in a few hundred years we’ll know the answer”
Come on.
והיינו שישתדל לידבק בו יתברך בכח מעשים שתולדתם זה הענין והם הם המצות.
Mesilas yeshorim perek 1. Mitzvos bring one close to Hashem. Aveiros, every single one, makes one far. People who do not do mitzvos as a commandment from Hashem are by definition far from him. They are rachok. There is nothing that brings a person close to Hashem other than mitzvos.
Just to clarify, there are no “early” or later braisos. The vast majority were compiled by rebbe chiyah and rebbe oshaya, and these are treated the same as a mishnaj, just were left out by rebbe Yehuda hanasi(bra”ah, outside)
Some other braisos were in circulation and the gemara will rarely say that the braisoh was corrupted, but not in the main body of braisos from rebbe chiyah and rebbe oshayah.
Just like the antisemitism at colleges is good in the sense that it can keep Jewish kids away from harmful places, this is the same thing; Hashem wants to give us the tools we need to fight the influence of the goyim.
Zeff, how they will be judged in shomayim is not really relevant bere.
Torah and secularism aren’t “differing perspectives.” We are obligated to distance ourselves from what Hashem disapproves of, which these movements represent, regardless of whether or not their adherents are reshoim vis a vis their culpability, their expectance to know better, etc..
I would humbly suggest taking on kabalos which are required, as we all have nisyonos in one mitzvah or another. Whether it’s shmiras aynayim, shmiras halashon, bitul Torah, or whatever else; I think mitzvos which are obligatory should come before deprival of pleasure.
Also, if you learn/daven better after having desert or if you listen to music, I’m pretty sure it’s more important to learn and daven better than to give up those pleasures.
I don’t mean to criticize what is clearly a very meaningful, inspired feeling that people have now, to do better, to be nosei b’ohl. Just some “food” for thought