AviraDeArah

In a Jewish educational system, parents are not baalei batim on chinuch, even though they pay and support the yeshiva – rabbis are bettee equipped and qualified to decide what to teach, and parents who are not interested are able to simply find a different school, and then proceed to support that institution and its rabbis; in neither case is the parent influencing the school itself. But to demand payment from parents who do not send their kids to the school is baseless.

Logically, if one is obligated as a tax payer to support the schools, they should have a say in how the school is run, even if due to their personal beliefs they are forced to send their kids to private school. If they don’t want parents to have a say in how the school is managed, they should allow a tax rebate for parents who opt out of the system and have their children attend private or home schooling. That way, the public school can say “this is how we want to run the school – if you don’t like it, take your children elsewhere”.

That’s all regarding mere disagreements. When the issue is the degeneration and upheaval of all foundations of civilization, it becomes an issue that affects the entire society, even people who don’t have school aged children. If a school decides to teach children to be murderers for instance, that has an impact on me no matter what my personal stake is in the institution, because I’m going to have to live with the unfortunate souls who will be the product of that education

If a random person in the street said that the world will know that rav moshe feinstein runs the world, you would disregard him as a lunatic.

Why is it different when a chabad rabbi claims this for his rebbe? Why do we run to defend it? Just because chabad does chessed and kiruv doesn’t mean they’re immune to criticism.

People will say “let’s see what you do next time you’re in Oklahoma and the only place you have is chabad”.

The above applies; that does not make one immune from criticism. For the record, I also was told by my rav to daven beyechidus rather than in a chabad shul, in light of the possibility of rebbe worship therein. I also wouldn’t eat meat from them.

כל מטי יעביד מה דהוא חכם והוות כל חדא מינהון אמרה מה דהיא אמרה ומייתיא פיתא וחדא אמרה מה דהיא אמרה ומייתיא קופד אמרה מה דהיא אמרה ומייתיא תבשילין אמרה מה דהיא אמרה ומייתיא חמר

I am mistaken; they may not have been widely known – the yerushalmi in chagiga 2:2 says the above – He tested them himself by asking what each one could do, after pretending to be one of them. Each one did their kishuf; they created different foods using kishuf, so shimon ben shatach gave the signal for all the 80 talmidim to come and execute them.

Also, the rambam knew this gemara quite well. He also knew chumash very well – Kishuf is a capital offense as spelled out beferush “machsefa lo sichayeh” regardless of whether or not it is sleight of hand. I personally am of the opinion that the rambam didn’t mean it fully, and was trying to get his Egyptian Jewish constituents removed from the abominable practices. However, many do take the rambam at face value, so we are not to dismiss it as being demonstrably false from gemaros and pesukim that decry kishuf.

Shimon – that’s exactly why goyim can marry their sisters according to many rishonim – baruch shekivanta. There is a rational reason however not to, which is that people have a disgust of such a marriage…it also results in birth defects.

I think eiver min hachai is very rational; Hashem does not want us to build bad middos in ourselves, and torturing animals or benefitting from their direct unnecessary suffering will do that.

CT – I should have been clearer. In theory theres no limit to the bechira in and of itselr. The limiting factor is Hashem’s control over our actions, versus what he lets us decide to do. The baalei machshava, including the ramchal and chovos halevavos (I’ll have to get the sources if need be) say that we only control that which has a moral significance. For a Jew, this includes virtually everything we do, because the chovos halevavos says that there’s no such thing as a “pareve” action – everything ultimately is either doing what Hashem wants or the opposite. I realize this may be a chiddush to some and i will imyh get the mekoros when i have some free time.

It follows then that goyim make far less decisions which have moral implications, therefore a lot of what they think they’re deciding is just Hashem running the world and using them as shluchim.

Shimon; I understand whaly you see that in the gemara, and you got me thinking about it, but I think this conclusion is untenable in light of chazal and rishonim, as I will explain. The rambam below in melachim 8:11 is very clear that only goyim who are mekabel the 7 mitzvos have olam haba.

כל המקבל שבע מצות ונזהר לעשותן הרי זה מחסידי אומות העולם. ויש לו חלק לעולם הבא. והוא שיקבל אותן ויעשה אותן מפני שצוה בהן הקב”ה בתורה והודיענו על ידי משה רבינו שבני נח מקודם נצטוו בהן. אבל אם עשאן מפני הכרע הדעת אין זה גר תושב ואינו מחסידי אומות העולם ולא מחכמיהם:

There is a machlokes in sanhedrin 105 between rebbe Eliezer and rebbe yehoshua if even a goy who keeps the 7 mitzvos has olam haba, and the rambam is paskening like rebbe yehoshua that they do. Interesting to note that shu”a paskens like rebbe Eliezer, because in hilchos gerim 268:2, where we tell the prosective ger once he has been accepted that –

ואומרים לו הוי יודע שהעולם הבא אינו צפון אלא לצדיקים והם ישראל

In light of this, the gemara in rosh hashana seems to be going like rebbe yehoshua – but rebbe yehoshua only grants olam haba to goyim who keep the 7 mitzvos! How then can poshei umos haolam have any gan eden?

My understanding is that the lashon of the gemara is very meduyak; it doesn’t say poshei akum, rather umos haolam – I think we’re talking about gerei toshav who accepted the mitzvos, but are sinners who have done bad things that do not include avodah zara; maybe they’ve eaten aiver min hachai, or other things. The same way a jew who sins occasionally has not forfeited olam haba, but rather one who routinely flouts halacha is included in poshei yisroel….poshei umos haolam may refer to a casual non-jewish sinner.

Also, logically, does it make sense that Hashem would take away the olam haba of a goy who generally does good but sometimes stumbles?

It would also be meduyak to put them together, because (i have to fet the mareh makom) a later chabad sefer writes that goyim who keep the 7 mitzvos have the same shoresh neshoma as a yid(not the same neshoma, just the shoresh), so it makes sense that the poshei yisroel and the non-jewish sinner will end up in a similar place.

Also, I don’t see any reference to poshei umos haolam going to gan eden at all…it says that they and poshei yisroel begufan sit in gehinnom for 12 months, then their bodies are destroyed and their neshomos are burnt, whereupon a wind blows their ashes hnder the feet of tzadikim…. What i see from here is to be very careful to wear tefilin properly and make sure to get them from a sofer yirei shomayim.

No problem shimon – here it is; end of perek 1 in Tanya, includes source where to find it in aitz chaim from the Arizal.

משא”כ נפשות אומות עובדי גלולים הן משאר קליפות טמאות שאין בהן טוב כלל כמ”ש בע”ח שער מ”ט פ”ג וכל טיבו דעבדין האומות עובדי גלולים לגרמייהו עבדין וכדאיתא בגמרא ע”פ וחסד לאומים חטאת שכל צדקה וחסד שאומות עובדי גלולים עושין אינן אלא להתייהר

The maharaha writes that for learning Torah, one is allowed to push off getting married until 24, and that was the minhag of the Litvishe yeshivos in Europe.

Let’s say someone is 20, but has no job, no ability to sit and learn, and has the middos of a sailor. Is he really ready to get married? If someone cannot marry at the “perek”, the normal time, then he is an oness. If someone does not have the ability, whether in terma of maturity, emotional stability, financial ability, or any number of considerations, then he is simply an oness.

It would take a gadol beyisroel to say that “we’re all onsim” or something to that effect, but I happen to know several choshuve rabbonim whose children got married very young because they were working, and the aforementioned maharsha didn’t apply to them.

Music is an expression of the neshoma. Goyim have a neshoma that’s mitzad the sitra achra

Right; sorry! Completely misread what you wrote

Maybe for that person it was a very crucial thing; chasidish maasos have to be understood and explained…we definitely don’t derive paak halacha from them

Also, when did he get married? Chabad has become a lot more radical in the past few decades

Common, you’re right about chasidim, but here it’s running a lot deeper. By chasidim, it’s more because the BT has no family, and for chasidim checking into the family is like 80% of the shiduch. Here it’s a caste system which lumps all the nachis-dargas together while claiming everyone’s the same – satmar has no problem saying that a BT has a chisaron, and sometimes they’re right!

Aposhitehyid; gazan is a term they use to denote geza’ah, stock; it is exclusive to chabad, and you won’t hear it in the kiruv circles. It’s a status for shiduchim, that even a chabad chossid whose grandparents were chabad, but they originally were skver, belz or whatever, then they will not do a shidduch with someone whose ancestors were originally Russian lubavitchers. This is silly because original chabad chasidim were not always chabad, since beforehand they were Litvish, but it’s more than silly, it’s supremacist and elitist, but much moreso than the norm of lifestyle/rebbishe/rosh yeshivishe families. Those are categories that are made to ensure that the couple get along, or for the kovod of Torah or rebbishe bloodlines. Here it’s simple geography that determines ones worthiness. In chabad, a rosh yeshiva whose grandparents were belz cannot marry an am haaretz whose grandparents were chabad.

Besides that, it runs totally against what they preach in the open about accepting every jew. I totally understand not marrying into families with pgam in their yichus, bnei nidah, gerim, and other things that actually have mekoros in the seforim – happens to be that gedolei yisroel have downplayed these concerns for quite some time, with rav moshe writing to disregard ben nidah as an issue if the boy is a ben Torah with good middos.

What chabad are saying is that the secular jew with the ponytail is no different than one of us, and we’ll get him to become frum, but he IS different regarding who he can marry. He is lower class. He is confined to BTs, no matter how much he’s shteiged. In contrast, a BT in the yeshiva world who has shed his former life and embraced learning fully with no remnant of his past will not be shut out. I know BTs of that caliber who married very choshuve families, because we have a meritocracy to a large degree.

Legitimate criticism doesn’t always come from having bad experiences. The only bad experiences I’ve had have been hearing avodah zara from them and having their missionaries descend on my neighborhood and yeshiva over the years.

Philosopher, I disagree sharply – many people can be rational and have functional lives, but live in emotional pain. Anxiety, OCD, bipolar, and much more are real conditions – perhaps calling it illness is too much; it’s more like maintaining and optimizing mental health. Ask any mashgiach in a yeshiva about emotional pain and mental health, and they will never mach avek what people are feeling. It’s callous, insensitive, and insulting to tell people to just “grow up” and stop being tortured by their conditions.

It could be that in previous times, people didn’t have enough free time to develop these issues…batalah mayviah lidei shigayon, but the way to deal with it is through hishtadlus, like anything else, and as conventional wisdom goes, keeping busy is a very big part of it, but definitely not the whole thing

It’s not a din, but we all know the saying “rak yomar b”h kol yom”

Novelty – uht azoi; you never heard of that word because only chabad discriminates so much as to group people by who is from “original chabad stock” and who isn’t

Gadol – I think that’s going too far; I don’t think the fringe singers are saving neshomos with their….”music”. I think listening to such music and worse (i still would not put lipa, who is a shomer shabbos, together with the porek ohl Matisyahu) is a symptom of a teen’s emotional pain and angst. When I hear music like that, it hurts me, and makes me feel down, so I’m guessing if someone feels that way anyway, it serves to validate their feelings. I agree that it might hold them back at least temporarily from listening to non jewish music, which can have a draw to all sorts of anti Torah concepts and behaviors.

Aposhitehyid – so please tell us why in chabad, if you’re not a “gazan” you can’t marry “gazan* families, or if you’re a BT, you can only marry other BTs and gerim?

Chabad says outwardly that all jews are the same, but inwardly, they separate classes of people more than most groups.

Also, ujm, I don’t know of any talmidei chachamim in America who are makpid on that psak of Rav Moshe. The rema allows music in siman 560 as long as it’s not during a seudah, and Rav Belsky held that the rema’s issur is only when it’s the kind of meal in which wine is served. Many restaurants are meikil with this even further, and while the hagaos mordechai would allow it, this seems to be a minority shitah – I’d apply ujm’s reasoning more to this case, where the halachik rationale is questionable, but if one needs it they have what to rely on.

“mentch tracht un got lacht”. Zionists believe in kochi veotzrm yodi, that they are the determiners of their fate and that never again will Jews be victims or rely on non Jews…

Mah asah HKBH? He made them rely almost completely on the US

Ujm – “ones mamon” is considered an ones for certain things; avodah zara not being one of them. What they did was assur, but jt was also forcible, because the alternative was to leave behind their entire lives – some did, and they were mekadesh shem zhomayim…their schar is immeasurable. It was not by any means an easy nisayon, and we have no idea what we would do if faced with it.

And yes, I have read reports that it was more…but i shudder to think about it and hope that the historian was mistaken.

Philosopher; it’s like I said above – a jewish life is worth the wasted resources. It also happens that when such mistakes occur, anyone who became frum would want a giur, and should indeed get one if they are sincere.

As for the “worthiness” of kiruv targets, there need not be any. Morasha kehilas yaakov; their great grandparents cried biterer treren for them to come back, and many have b”h. I brisk I learned lf the background of many, many choshuve bochurim who grew up with nothing. Do most become frum? No. Do the ones who become frum always become bnei Torah? Again no. But are they ruining klal yisroel? Absolutely not! More harm is done by the likes of Avi Weiss who have a rabbinic position to exploit, or by the social media women who spread treif among bnos yisroel. More harm is done by the people in our own “unzerer” who facilitate and enable disgusting things, by the MO world which incubates apikorsus and znus, the list goes on…the dreadlock wearing hitchiker who enjoys a shabbos seudah and is inching towards observance isn’t hurting nearly as many, because he’s an “oisvarf”.

“What are we letting into our community” – being steeped in gen z garbage does not remove the yiddishe neshoma and our obligation to save them as much as possible. The ones who are not up to par anyways don’t want to assimilate into the charedi world, and the MO world is just as “veit” as they are

Ujm, if they become frum they will at some point be checked out, certainly before they are married. If they don’t, then being in the yeshiva hasn’t helped or harmed them in terms of intermarriage, because while whoever they marry might think they’re Jewish, if they or their children ever marry into klal yisroel, there will be a bedikah, and it will not harm the klal.

I personally know a case where a boy thought he was jewish, but it turned out thar his maternal grandmother converted through reform/conservative. The kid was learning full time, he was 20ish, and underwent a giur immediately.

If you’re worried about yayin nesech, bishul akum, etc while they’re not observant, then the same halacha applies(mostly) to secular jews as well.