AviraDeArah

AAQ – the examples have been discussed on this site quite extensively, but in no particular order:

Yaldei tehran
Taimani kidnapping
Telling teimanim that moshiach came and they don’t have to do mitzvos
Army designed for indoctrination and znus
Language designed to corrupt lashon kodesh
Absence of Hashem from declaration of independence, and national anthem
Spreading of lies blaming the gedolei yisroel for the Holocaust
Gius bonos
Banning boys from laying tefilin in public schools (in private rooms!)
Absorption of hundreds of thousands of non-jewish immigrants claiming to be Jewish
Telling the world that they are the representatives of the Jewish people
National laws that are against halacha; monetary, civil, religious freedom for avodah zara
Institutional acceptance of the alphabet soup people
Giving perspective Olim free housing…only in nok charedi areas
Trying to control the charedi and dati religious education system
The attempt at making a fake sanhedrin with an am haaretz at its head to do their bidding
Caricature of charedi Jews in Nazi fashion in the media

Need some more?

By law any generic drug must have the same chemical composition to be FDA cleared for use as a substitute for the brand name

Gadolha, not everyone who dresses yeshivish is actually living within the parameters of what that term entails. You’re dismissing the 10s and thousands of sincere yungeleit and their families who have never taken trips and don’t even have a social media presence (I’m included in both of those categories).

It’s like if I quote a chazal about derech eretz, instantly someone looking to be a leitz and deflect mussar will chime in about charedi people with bad middos – learn Torah and attempt to your best abilities to fulfill it, instead of justifying your( not your own personally, I’m speaking in general) own shortcomings by claiming that “see, even the charedim do XYZ”

Leitz achas docheh meah tochachos

Reb E, who applies the halacha of bal yareah to seeing the faults of others etc?

מה טובו אוהליך יעקב, bilaam saw that the entrances of the yidden’s tents were not put opposite one another

The bracha of Jewish survival is tznius and privacy. אין הברכה שורה אלא על דבר הסמוי מן העין, brochos only go on things that are not seen.

Rw, he was saying that post Holocaust, more Jews died because of their Judaism I’m Israel than anywhere else, even in America where there were/are way more Jewish people in the population

If you encountered the gemutliche Germans before the war, you would have said that they love Jews too. It never changes – chazal call antisemitism a halacha. Not a societal anomaly, not something that comes and goes or is only in a minority of people. Not something a kumbaya or courses on the Holocaust, or guilt trips (literally, trips to Europe) can fix.

Halacha yaduah she’eisav soneh ea yaakov. It’s as immutable as any other halacha. They hate you. They probably don’t even know it themselves, but if there’s a gezerah, they will almost certainly sell you out. They will protect themselves with your life if not participate in the shooting squads themselves.

Halacha yaduah – it’s known, painfull6, tearfully known. You should learn it too.

AAQ, equating lying or slander with violence is nor accurate. But you touched on an extremely important hashkofa topic that needs to be said – it’s really worth its own thread.

Middos and mussar are tempered and guided by halacha (see sefer emunah ubitachon by the chazon ish; it’s one of his central themes). What mussar engenders in a person needs to be mugdar, defined and put into the parameters of halacha. For instance, says the chazon ish, mussar teaches us to have mercy on the oppressed and to defend them. However, it’s halacha that comes and defines for us who is the rodef and who is the nirdaf. In his case of melamdim who are established in a town, and who are losing their parnosa to newcomers who steal their business, the instinct of the baal mussar who is not educated in halacha is to defend the old melamdim. Hasagas gevul! Will they scream. They will say lashon hora on the newcomers, petition cherem, make public machlokes. All of which would be justified…if halacha said that they were defending the nirdaf. Halacha in that case is the opposite – kinas sofrim tarbeh chochma mandates that there is no taanah of pasakta lichiusi, of hasagas gvul, because the competition creates better teaching. The glorification and better study of Torah is more important than thw individual parnosa of a yid, explains the heiligeh chazon ish.

Same thing here. We all learn midddos when we are young. I can still hear the marvelous middos machine in my head as if i heard it yesterday. Gevaldig! Working on our middos, says the Gra, is the purpose of our existence (in many ways). However here too, the seep feelings we should have about the evils of lashon hora must ve limited to what halacha considers lashon hora. Failure to do so results in….saying lashon hora itself! Saying about a jew “Reuven is guilty of motzi shem ra…i heard it myself” is itself MSR on Reuven if the topic of Reuven’s discussion was not a Jew.

Comes the visceral response…the knee jerk reaction of the miseducated. “Just because someone isn’t Jewish you think you can do what you want???”

This attitude belies two fundamentally incorrect assumptions, aside from it being against halacha. The deep seated feeling stems from the assumption that the difference between the two is merely a creed, a race, or a personal belief system. Therefore, judaism feels “racist”. This is coming straight from zionism, which convinced the masses that the jews are a nationality. We are not. We are a group of God’s treasured Torah nation, defined solely by our connection to and adherence of the Torah. Those who are not part of that nation, are different.

Ujm, i try to keep the discussions focused on the issue, not the gavra – i demonstrated the falsity of what was said; there’s no need to make it personal

Ironically, al pi din if you were to, in the presence of another jew, accuse a Jew of saying motzi shem ra, you would be in fact violating motzi shem ra if the subject of the original slander was a non jew, as there is no issur of hotzaas shem ra/lashon hora/rechilus on non jews. So saying a Jew violated the issur would be lashon hora if true (i.e. he actually said LH on a jew) and MSR if he didn’t (which in our case, he did not, as fauci and gates are not Jewish)

Charlie, there’s a huge divide among Palestinians between those who want a state and those who want a right of return/citizenship into Israel, which will make the state majority Arab. Among the latter, there are some who are ready to “forgive” the jewish israelis, establish democracy, etc..but many want shariah, and many of those want to expel/kill/etc all of the Jews. There’s polling data on this and it’s easily accessible.

I do agree that the comparison with south Africa is off. In South Africa, the westerners were simply controlling the Africans, intentionally keeping them down and oppressing them. They believed that they didn’t deserve access to education and resources.

Israel does have a security threat from the Arabs. They have had this since they began trying to make a state. That doesn’t justify everything they do, and i believe that part of the chilul Hashem the state makes (among literally thousands of violations of Torah) is its treatment of the non-naturalized Arabs. We don’t need to defend it even if we believe Israel is generally worth defending.

People are quicker to defend israel than they are gedolim who are accused of turning a blind eye to “you know who”, or the like.

Priorities, people.

Meshaneh makom meshanah mazal applies to a yochid; when klal yisroel has a gezerah, running away won’t help. It will follow us wherever we go, because Hashem’s decrees are inevitable.

In europe, jews tried to avoid the gezerah with shtadlonus

In eretz yisroel, they accepted that romel was 2 days away and turned to the ribono shel olam; the chazon ish said that if the yiden in europe would have done the same, there wouldn’t have been a Holocaust there either.

Hashem is everywhere

Take two people. One is my Rosh Yeshiva, who says that when he’s asked his nationality, he says “American”, because Judaism isn’t a nationality, but rather a religion. An MO person might say the same answer when asked, but not because he thinks Judaism is not a nation – he believes very much in zionism after all. He’ll say it because he identifies with America as part of himself, while the rosh yeshiva looks at it the same way he would describe his eye color or skin tone; inconsequential – he doesn’t identify with anything other than torah.

It really doesn’t matter to me how much rabbi wein knows or doesn’t know, or how much i know – it’s an off the cuff speculation. It’s also way off topic, and i generally choose to not make my posts about me or any other poster. Take from them what you will, if any, and disregard whatever you don’t like or think is arrogant. I do think my willingness to accept when I’m wrong and acceptance of others’ opinions who i otherwise disagree with (like with marx above) is what i try to go by.

Marx, that’s a good point and clear thinking – there were many tzadikim who reacted to the medina with gratitude to Hashem for giving them a place to go after the war; not connected to zionist ideology – they would have been just as grateful(probably more so) if America had taken them in too.

I agree that thanking Hashem for Jews being safe after a war doesn’t equal pro zionism, or that the war was a neis – I think I’d actually have the same reaction.

Also re, rav yaakov; i was close with an elderly oved Hashem who worked in the office for many decades, and was active in managerial issues in the yeshiva. He used to tell me stories about his early years, and he said he was there when rav shraga feivel gave a shiur following the war of independence, with him saying that he doesn’t know for sure, but that it might be the beginning of bias Hamoshiach. He said he would wait to see what the gedolei hador would say. The next say rav yaakov said clearly that it has not related to the geulah, and rav shraga feivel accepted this psak.

Marx, if you ever spent time in a brisker Yeshiva, you’d see the unusual emphasis placed on the accurate retelling of stories. One of my roshei Yeshiva said that by rav berel, the talmidim would discuss it if one time he used a different….word, yes, a different word in his explanation. They take history very seriously.

I never said that the 6 day war myth developed in the way you’re describing. Actually,i haven’t addressed that question directly, so I’ll do so now.

The state of Israel purposefully grew the myth of both the danger they were in as well as the legend of their unlikely victory. That’s artificial. I’m referring to groups of people who take their own history as seriously as they do teshuvos reb akiva eiger.

Zionist circles have a mythology, including a made up story that West point academy doesn’t teach about the 6 day war, because it’s a miracle. That’s not rooted in a misunderstanding that developed; it’s just plain, demonstrable sheker. It’s on their curriculum and you can find it on Google.

edited

I wasn’t equating scholem with r. Wein; i was saying that merely being a historian doesn’t mean I’ll be machniah myself, whether they’re religious, a rabbi, or anyone else.

Also, to be honest, i do think i know more about rabbinic history than he does, having had close ties with an insular world that he isn’t part of and which doesn’t spend a lot of time documenting its history. I trust the historical accounts of my rebbeim from beis brisk and others over his research.

One who is attempting to sexually abuse another person is a rodef.

Smerel, there’s a lot to unpack here. Firstly, even if we were to say that the sides were drastically uneven (which they weren’t, more on that soon), the pri megadim writes that we wouldn’t have established chanukah because of the victory of the chashmonaim, because often the underdog (pardon the expression) wins – winning a war against all odds is NOT a neis, according to the pri megadim.

Again, you’re conflating yad Hashem vs nisim. Not everything that’s min hashomayim is a neis. Misyavnim, secularists, and kochi veotzem yodi people say that the CAUSE of success is strength and material factors. They deny that it is from Hashem.

I am not saying that Israel’s wars, or any wars, or anything is not from Hashem. The snowflake that hit my nose this morning was from Hashem. Nothing exists or happens without Hashem. A neis is a miracle, a suspension of natural law. It is done for tzadikim or xan be, rarely, a challenge from the yatzer hora, are we going to follow…say, the egel hazahav, or here, are we going to lavish praises on the zionist enemies of Torah and say that Hashem is “with” them and their blasphemous campaigns.

However, we don’t need the pri megadim here. By all counts, Israel had far better training, better pilots, better equipment, better weapons, and better generals. The empty wagon in that chapter brings many neutral sources that clearly say this. The arab armies were plagued by nepotism, lack of training and preparedness, aging weaponry and many other factors. Also, Israel had better motivation; arabs were secure in their land, whereas the Israelis would face extermination if they failed. Numbers alone are not the deciding factor.

Rav yisroel chaim Kaplan’s grandson, rav binyomin kaplan, tells over (you can him say it on rabbi shapiro’s podcast by googling “R. Yaakov Kamenetsky on the Myth of the Miracle of the 6-Day War rabbi shapiro podcast”) that rav yaakov kaminetzky said “vos heist nisim?” How were there nisim?

Comparing land mass the way zionists do in theit education information is very misleading. Wars aren’t won by colliding land masses together or merely by troops running at each other. Even then, the air force is what really makes a difference, and Israel had the upper hand in that department by a wide margin.

Again, neis doesn’t equal min hashomayim. Everything is min hashomayim, most things – 99.9% of things, are not nissim.

Rabbi shapiro explains that it’s similar to the laitzonei hador who claimed that sorah had conceived from avimelech. Why are they called laitzonei hador? Because how can a person think that Hashem wouldn’t do nissim for Avrohom, a tzadik, but would for avimelech, the rasha? He’s belittling Avrohom in saying so.

Ever wonder why the same people who consider themselves “rationalist”, eschew kabalah, doubt things like golems, mock chasidishe stories as folk tales, and seek to explain Torah in the most non-miraculous way possible.. suddenly become miracle loving fundamentalists? Tell a zionist you have doubts about krias yam suf, and you’ll have a listening, compassionate ear… Tell them you have doubts about if the wars were miracles, and you’re an enemy of the nation, a horrible descendent of the miraglim, etc

What do they do that’s particularly evil?

Indoctrination classes, intentionally mixing genders, constantly trying to draft girls…the army was built as a cultural center initially, to promote zionism – that’s not my theory, it’s the words of ben gurion and his apikorsim. He was asked how he would integrate sefardim and other groups into Israeli society, and his answer was the army. I’d again refer to the empty wagon for a comprehensive list of quotes and examples of this.

AAQ, the defilement is that jews are walking on it in a state of tumah, committing an issur kares in the holiest place in the world

Christianity believes in a dualistic, independently powerful devil/satan. He can do things against what they call god.

We don’t have such a concept; evil was created by Hashem and does not function autonomously. Demons don’t have bechirah, and neither does the sitra achra. We still want to keep away from it, because it is against the revealed will of Hashem, kedushah, and l things that are good for us. This idea is explained in detail in the kisvei arizal, and the tanya in a few places. The ramchal mentions it in derech aitz chaim and in the hakdoma to kalach pischei chochma, and reb elchonon vasserman in his ikvesa demieshicha oage 263, quotes it as well. Chazal use the term “maysoh soton” in a few places, such as the vision that the soton made by har Sinai that Moshe was dead as part of the nisayon of the egel hazahav. Devarim 13:4 says that a navi sheker may produce a miracle; that miracle is a maysoh soton, a challenge that we must withstand, just like any other yatzer hora.

Ultimately everything is from Hashem, as ein ohd milvado – nothing truly exists besides Hashem, but the same way we keep away from physical fire, even though there’s nothing besides Hashem, we keep away from negative spiritual realities, be they aveiros, shedim, ruchos raos, or maysoh soton.

Where does the empty wagon advocate kochi veotzem yodi? I went through it many times, and I have not seen anything remotely resembling such an attitude.

Empty wagon quotes regarding the 6 day war are on pages 609-613. There’s a pretty clear index…you don’t need to search through the pages to find topics; they’re clearly labeled.